[captioning madeossible by kcetublic television] tavis: good evening fm los anges, i'm tavis smiley. first up tonight aonversation with former d.n.c. c dr. howard dean on thetate of the health care bate. stories this week the wte house may be willing to accept a bill witho a public ption has disappoted many whoee this pvision as the key to comprehense health care rerm. also tonight we recall the life and legac of a giant in the world of televisio news, n hewitt, the creator of "60 minutes" changed the face of television when t venerable newsgazine debuted in 1968. eight years elier he broke similar grnd as the producer of the first ever televised debate between richa nix d john f. kennedy. glad youe joined us, health

care with howard dea and membering don hewit coming up rig now. >> therere so many things l-mart is looking forward to doing, like helng people le beer but mostly we' looking forwarto helping build stronger communies and retionships because with your help, the bests yet to come. >> nationwide insurance proudly spourts avis smiley." tavis and nionwide insurance. woing to improve financial literacy and the economic powerment that comesith it. >> ♪ natiwide is on you side ♪ >> and by contributins to e pbs station from viewersike u. thank you. captioned by the nationa captioning instite --www.ncicap.o-- tavis: a coupl of quick prograing notes tomorrow a

conversation witu.s. seetary of education arne duan. on friday nit i'll be joined stan bro founder of remote area medical, r.a.m., and h aveling health care clinic was front pageews over the week followed a stop in l.a. providing free health ca to thsands of americans. and tonight we begin wh dr. howard dean, o of the uniquely qualifiedoices in the debate. as serving in the public offe as governoof vermont he was a practicing phycian for more than 10 year s new book on the subject is called "hord dean's presiption for real health care reform and how can achieve afforble medical care for every arican and make our jobs safer." he joins us tonht from durington. dr. dean, nice to have you back on this program, sir. >> tavis, thanks for havinge on again. tavis: my pleasur i want to startith a clip, you were kind enoh to join me on my public radio program a few days ago and i wt to play a clip of what you said to me inur conversation on publi radio and get your resnse on

that very comment tonight a few da later. re he is. >> i promised myself when i w writing this book that i w not going to attack congrs on uff that could be changed later. sur would i write the bill a litt differently? yeah, i woul thwhole thing comes dn to whether there a public opti or n. if there no public opon it's a waste of everyone's time and money. tavis: the day aer you made that comment, front pag "new york tim," public tion may be dea and in the days sin that convsation, th's all we're taing about. you have thought nowadays later about the public optn. >> i think one thing thatas slped dead is something tt was very good wch it basically showedfter this is all said and done, t repubcans have no interest in hlth care reform. soon there was talk about giving up theublic option they were backing away and saying co-s are noood earlr and the administration now reazes it will be done wi democrats alone andhat means the will be a public optionecause the vast majorityf demoats in the congress and frankly aajority of america think there ought

to be public option. all a public optio isllowing pele under 65 to signp for something likeedicare is all it is. and giving peoe a choice. nobody has to sign up for this. ifhey don't want a government program, then they on't have to sigup for one. and that'she way america orks is giving ordinary people a choicenstead of having t oice made for them by insurance companiesnd congresspeople and bureauats. vis: speaking of ngresspeople you don't think anof these persons, members of congress, whenthey come back to wo in a matter of days, are going to have been spook by all thi hue and c in these town hall meetings and therefe not cast their vote fothe public option? >> i think at the end of the day they'll d what congresspeople are supsed to do whi is work stuffut. the only difference is the republicans won't at the tablbut conservatives a moderates wi be in the form of blue dogs. i said, i think when we talked last week i said i thought the ue dogs made the bill a better bill and connue to think it's gng to be a very good bill at the end. it won be perfectut it will

be a real piece of reform that's badly needed. i think the president's plan, i said thimany times, the president's plan in the campaign was the best health carelan i've seenn 30 years in this business and what something like that ishat's going to finally be p in pce. tavis: two questionsbout what you just said now. number one, can ite to your words a vy good bill in the end ift's done in a partisa way? >> sure. socialecurity wasone without a republican votes medicare didt have any repuican votes until the final reading of t bill when they didt dare vote against it. republicanare experts at guerrilla warfare when ty're the opposition and aren't as great at governing but they're terrific at rowing monkey wrenches in. the huge point ofetting a jority in theouse of senate and a democrati white house is we'd movehe countryorward again. thpresident made it clear he wants to move the untry. i think he wted a bipartisan cooperation. e american people would have liked that b the republicans have tak themselves out of it we're gointo have to do it on ourwn and the important thing

is to get it done and get i done right. tavis: what i think doesn't matterround here with you as the est but let me add to this cversation that when we wereovering the campaign of president oba, senator oma at the time, there were a number of things we hear about what he wanted too on health care. you referred to it moment ago as the best heah care plan you'd ard of in 30 yea. we heard las summer in the campaign about sine payor, go. we heard aboutuying drugs in volume about saving money. basically gone. we heard of taxin windfall profits of the hlth care indust, basically gone. now the blic option as we now know it is bng debated and that's still the bt health care plan? >> well, the public option is at makes or breaks it. and as i sd last week on the rao show, i'm not goi to ibble with all the other stuff. sure, i can criticize it but congress has a tough job,he president has tough job and they have to make tgh decision there's been a l ofanalysis out this public option and all this. i think e people who mostl get it wrong arenside the

beltway analysts who say oh, the's a left wing and the left. this is not about the left vers the right. this is abouthat works and doesn't work. withou a public option, tavis, we're essenally investing in what welready have a onl foolselieve you can keep doing at you've been doing for 35 years and get a different resul and tt -- but it's so washingtono think that. when i first got to the d.n. chaianship is all the democrs wanted to do, continue and hope people didn't note the difference and worin 26 states anwe changed all that over t objections of peoe in washington. i think the predent is trying change the way whington does business. that's what he said he was going to do toet elected if you want t change the way washington does biness you've got to change whawe've been doing for years ming bilons in the health re industry is not a change. not because somedy is liberal or progress of -- progressive or left buhat'seal change.

tavis: what yo say hers -- matters, o you wldn't be a best-selli author and people take some regar in what y say. you said by my count three times in my conversation one way, spe or form, could quibble but i' not. i'm going tmake you quibble. if you were going to quibble abouwhat this bill is not or what it appears that it will not be, what would you be quibing about? >> the oy thing might quibble aboutt is fundi source. i'd use a carbon tax. that's not going to happen th's out of left fie but t climate bill chae bill is a little trouble, cap and tradis in a littl trouble thgh i think cap andrade is good program. so youan basically do two things in one bill, use a carbon tax, people who get hurt othethan the oil cpanies whh not many people he sympat for are people who have to drive long distances because they can't afford t buy a house whereheir jobs are. those ople are likely not to have health insurance lose their health insurance andhis would guarantee them health

insurance the restf their life that was affdable. so you know, think that's t best way to fun it but i'm not gettingnto all thattuff. this is a tou job these senators and congresspeople have they have to maktough choices and aga i'm not quibbng about the fuing source. i am going to quibble about whether it's real or not. you don't want to raise a l of money athe tarpse -- taxpayers expense and gi it tohe health care compani and not ge things done. tavis: you said pple not necessarily have sympath for oil coanies and i hear your point and not many have empathy fo persons who hapn to be wethy and who make a million dollars a year or more. but there is this conversation that's srting to grow whether or not the obama administration real is going to make ts happeny raisingaxes, snificantly, by raising the costignificantly on theacks of those who happen to have money. if you dohat, one could argue that tse perns, many of whom own businesses areoing to see thoseusinesses, tho small businses hurt soou've got aasty circleere.

what's yr thought about making this happ by raising premiums, by raising taxes on the wealt in the nation. >> i don't know too many sma buness people who make a milliodollars a year. secondly, is bill does aot for sma business nobody talks abouand this is also the blue gs did this, chris dodd did this. right now if youave a payroll in a small busines less than half a milon dollars or less an 25 employees, you no longer he to be concerned abt getting health insuranc r your employees because the government will he the employees do that based on eir income either in t private sector or pubc sector and at will be the choe of the employees. now, i actually talked to senatorodd and talked about raising thoseimits. if we can help smallusiness in tha way it would b a tremendous boost to th economy. i d't think this is amall business iss, if you're making $1 milon a year at your sma business myuess is u could afford to do somethi. don't forget resident bush cut taxes mostly oneople making a million dollars a year and i think we put thoseates to ere they were isn't bad

thing. tavis: youuggested earlier ho you thought it should be paid for but conded that's not how it's going to paid for. whats a i about this trillio dollar fige that's going to have to come fro somewhere t pay for thi >> it's not a trillion dollar figure but $0 billion which is less than what we're spending in iraq. and i think the senate finance one ha been scored most recently at $80illion a year so the numbers are aot less an people thought. thas an influence of the bulldogs and even e republans pushed back on the cost and ihink is a good things well. 2/3 comes from savin and real savings. they already made deals with the variouhealth care providers that money is gog to be saved fm various programs. i think that's aery positive thing. so we' really talking now aboufunding $20 bilon a year in t hou bill or a little more th that in the senate bill and thi that could be done. tavis: what's at stake as you see it if thisoesn't happe

as stake one for the country and at stake for the president? >> it's bad for the economy if it doesn't happe we're losing jobs not jus to china bute're losing jobs to places like canadand germany and franceecause their health care systems are cheaper and better run tha ours. but it' also bad for the democrats. and at's why the republicans are not interested being at the table. they made itery clear over theeekend even if we make big concessions they're not ing to b involved with this. so ty made theirhoice and they know it's going to b bad for the democrs if we don't pass the bill. but it will be bad for the democrats if we pass a bill at does nothing. i say be bold. that's how we got in power. weere doing nothing for 20 ars. and we got io power by being bold and changin things, b shaking thingup and standing up for what weelieved in. that's what we've g to do is stand up for what we bieve in agaiand if you do that the american peoplgive you enormous credit. the best political md in this country is stillill clinton

d he's said two or three mes when barack obama signs that bill in the white house his numbers areoing right back up again and we an't going to lose ma seats and robably pick a few up in the off-year electio tavis: your point of president obamais he still being bold oras he shifted his position this issue from last yearo now? >> i thi they're struggling d some of them really believe they'll get republican votes and 's very clear they' not and i think 's time to g back to the original blueprint in the campaignhich was bold and was a terric idea and well thought out and thas at we need to proceed. barack oba was elected becausof change we can believe in. we need al change and think we can now do that. tavis: where'she evidence in his career eve in his shor time in the th white house he's prepared to go it alo and make sething as part o issue, his whole thing has been about working across th aisle and chging the way washington wor. where's the evence he's willing to go it alone he? >> the stimulu bill. th's probably the biggest piece of legislati he's gotten through. and if there was any republican votes, there's only o or two in the senate, maybe thr, i

don'think there was a single one inhe house. th's havingome success the republicans a big on saying it doesn'tork. the ock market is up 40% higher than it was at its lows w. we'vgot a ways to go. the unemployments still going up a little bit but we're starting t stabilize. i ink this is a terble recessiowe've had because of the policiesn t past ministration and the laxne on wa street, theross risk taking at our expense. but the fact of the matter i we're getting better and we are going to g better and t business community hasigured this out and soou know, tt s a huge piece of legislation. heidn't flinch when the republicans de it cle they weren't going to beelpful but did it anyway because it was ght for the country and we can do that with health care as well. tavis: the last four words of the subtle of your book is make our jobs safer make the li between health care and our jobs being made safer? >> give y a great example. canada'sovernment pays for their health re, their

sinesses pay extra taxes, more than we do but their government ps for their health care. that used to be a proem for them, for canadian businesses, their tax rate was highe but our businesses pay for the taxes -- p for the health care here. in canadthe taxes don go up 2 .5% th rate of inflation but our health care has gon up ery year for 30 years. finally we'rnot becoming competitive. general motors pays more for the health care that workers whbuild thears make than they do for t steel that go into the car. now, that tellsou something about how uncpetitive our industry is. on of the reasons i believe our indusies i becoming increasingly less comtitive because our health systemwhich businesses p for is out of control. that will change under president obama's stem. tas: r. howard dean's book is call called "prcription for mical reform and how we c obtain medica care and make our jobs saf." the former cir of the d.n. and former governor of vermont.

nice to have you on the program. >> thanks for hang me on. tavis: nextp a look at the lif and legend ofon hewitt. a tavis: few people have had t kind of impact on this medium of television the way don hewitt did. as t creator of "60 minutes" he would change the face of the ws business providing a primetime ptform for one of tv's longest running and mt successfulhows. but prior to that he helped change the face o american politics as the producer of the first ever televised debate i 1960 between rhard nixon and jn f. kennedy. in his most recent appearance on this program i began by asking do hewitt if debates today meant asuch as they did back then. >> nothing mters as muc as the firstne. the first onwas a ockbuster. when the first one w over, jack kennedy was preside of the united states. they didn't have to wa for election day. noing like that has happened since. younow, my mt vivid recollection of that first

debate is the politicians lookg at us and saying to themselves, that's t only way to run for oice, and we, us, looking a them saying, that's a bottomless pit of aertising dollars. that changedolitics i america. it reinforcethe idea thathe only way to campaignnd mak a splash is on telision. in lol races you have to buy the time. and it's gone crazy. the amount of money i costs to ld office in t united states or even run for oice in the united ates based upo the fact it has toe on levision is obscene. vis: so are you happy with whatou have bequeatd my generation or do you o us an apoly? >> aery big apology. the amount of money, and it all

touched off that night the amountf money thagoes into television campaignings scene. tavis: tl me - take me back o 1960 -- i had the pleasure of talking to you about this befo and i know you've been asked about it 1,001 times a take me back to that debat and telle since that was t first one that waselevised, what made the difference that night? >> jack kennedy's persona. nixon walked in, he banged his knee on the car cominn, he had an infection, he wasn't well, 'd been cpaigning all day, jackennedy had been studying up all day. jack kennedy walkedn and looked like a harvard undergraduate. no one hadeen a president like that. he was a matin idol, he was perfectly taired, he was tan, was thin, he was se-assured. it was almost over before it began. tavis: let me k whether o

not you ever cou have imagined backn 1960 whenou did the first o that ese things would have devolved to this point? and i ask tt, to your earlier point you guys had not -- if not stumbled on to something, but certainly had created mething that was revoluonary in 1960. cou you ever have imagined it evolved to this point you see it,t least? >> no. i wish they'd kept it the idea oa debate. and i think it was a brilliant ea. was from the bra of newt minno whoecame chairman of the f.c.c. under jack kennedy. it was his idea and frank stanton who w then president of cbs. it got int the number one issue wasixon's makeup. whichs ridiculous. i mean, we're picking a president of the united ates

anthe issue is nixon's makeup. there ha been so many extraneous issues like being asked, inew jack kennedy a ou know jack kennedy, the insults, ronald agan saying to jmy carter, there you go again, i thought there was la of dignity and it became kind o television shows. tavis: you know what's inic as we s and have this conversation and listen to you telle about what it's like to behere and produce that eventn 1960, as i sit and list to you tack about -- you talk about it,hat occurs to me whatame out of that debate by your o admission is great deal of conversation abo symbol ice hi and nixon not wearing keup and sweating profusely and how tan and handsome and matinee idolishnd tan h

kennedy lked. and it w style over stance then and here were in 2008 and we're still getting the same kindf conversatio about the ct that obama was cooler, he looke better, looked more presidential. again, more conversion about style. is that ironic, do you s the same thing see? >> no, i agree with you 100%. tavis: i als spoke to don hewitabout the legacy of "60 minute and how the program changed theews business and the business onews. since you mentioned adverting, let me cut in quickly and ask you h advertisg or the emmet is, the demand,quite frankly -- the impetus, the demand, quite frankly, how does ithange news as know it? >> in a crazy way i think did that. i think we -- i in particular, am responsible. i developed a broadcast cald "60 nutes" which took documentaries, took theown to their bare bones, had them

broaast by recognizable faces and vces and nes. at that poi the documtaries were sort of lke holr than thou television. peoe watched documtaries for the same reason ty went to churc because theyhought they had to. an it changed tevision in such a way that "60 mutes" de a profit of $3.2 million billion -- start again. we made a pfit -- tavis: that's a big differee, isn't it? >> $2.2 billion we put in the cbs coffers andhat was unheard of for news broadcast. so from that day on they assud the obligation. it all srted when the oy way you cod get a license t broaast was to do plic rvice. andhe bill paylees and leonard goldenson came to the

conclusion if they ran a news television they'd jt be talkg their public service and nevethought of it as anything other than thway they got licens to broadcast. and ter i came along, god help us, when they me money, they decided all the news shows had to me money to stay on the air. and i'm not surehat a day is not ming when all of news is going to go over t all news stations. i know for a facthat cbs was talking about buying cnn, and i would think if the had they would have mod all their news overthere. i don't know if they really like being in the news business. tavis: wow. let me ask y, since you we such an innator back in e the day, how it is w get young people, no matter whetherr not we get to that point where all the news gets,or lack of a betr phrase,ownloaded on to cable for your point, no matter what the solutions long term, how do we get young people to watch to care about

news, cbs, your network is trng to figure out now what they're going to d post dan rather. there's talk ty're trying to reach out to a younger audience. any idea how tha might work successfully? >>ure. but somehow they resist it. i think the wayo reach a unger audience is to have five veryood columnist, one monday, oneuesday, one wednesday, one thursy, one friday. suose you did a two-minute lumn at the end of e news and jontewart did one and ellen degeneres did one and chris buckley did one andhen on friday night i'd get the editor of some college newspaper to do one. that's how you're going to brincollege kids -- tavis: i accept. >> you got it. tavi even well into his 80's donewitt was still thinking of innovative ideas and perhaps nothing speaks me to his lega than this, last sunday night, me than 40 years after its debut the ngle most watcd television in all of television,60 minutes."

don hewitt passed away today at the age of 86 following complications from pancreatic cancer but the shadowf his legacy willxtend for generations toome. that's our show for tonight. until xt time, good nigh lfromng from l angoses. and as alway keep the fai. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavissmiley@pborg. tavi hi, i'm tavis smile join me next tim with.s. education ofsecretary arne duan on president oma's education agenda. next time. see you en. there's so many this wal-ma is looking forward to doing, like helping people live bett but mostly w're looking foward to help you bui stronger cmunities and relationships. cause of your help, the best is yet to come. >> natnwide insurance proudly supports "tavis smey."

>> tavis a nationwide insurance. working to improve financial literacy and theconomic empowerment tt comes with it. >> ♪ nationwide isn your side ♪ >> and by contributions to your s station from viewersike you. thank you.