vis: good evening from los angeles. i'm vis smiley. first up tonight, a conversation with.s. secretary of education, arne duncan. after a run as chief to have chicago publ school stem he is in charge of public education for the obama white hse. goals include the push for more charter schoolsn the us. also tonight, the founder of the enter dependence day, benjamin barber. s gathering takes place in turkey nt month and emphizes the need for global cooperaon on a wide range of issues. ne duncan and political theorist benjamin barber coming up right now.

>> there are so ma things that wal-rt is looking forward to doing, like helping pele live better b mostly we're looking rongerstcommunitieand dst erng relationshs becauswith your help, the best is yet to come. >> nationwide insurance oudly supports tis smiley. tas and nationwide insurance working to impro financial literacy and the economi emporment that comes with it. ng♪ nationde is on your si ♪ >> and by contritions to your pbs station from viers like you. thank you.na [captioning ma possible by kcetublic television] tavis: arne duncan serves as t u.s. sretary of education after serving te as the

chicago c.e. of public educion. hiss father s a professor at the university o chicagond his mother ran an after-school tutoring progr. secretary duncan, nice to have you on the program. >> thanks for giving me the opportunit how are you doing? >> i'm doing wel i want to start -- you p quite a focus o charter schools as -- don't want to say the answer but charter schoo as one of the answers wh so much focusn chart schools? >> it a piece of the ansr. it is definitelyothe answer. i have said i am not a fan of charters. i am a fan ofoodharters. too many places arnd the couny we have miocre charges. when you on let t best of the best open sools and give the operate ofs autonomy from bureaucracies, we ver that with clear accountility, w see great things happen around

e country. piece over the solution for challenging the status quo and helping us get bter, we want that option on the table. >> one could argue as i will now that while crter schools are good on one hand, on the otr hand they are me of the most sregated sools in the couny because those whoound them and create themnd run them g to pick and choose who they want to be in their schools. what aut that? >> that is not qui right to be honest. theyperate by lottery. these are public schools. blic schoolchildren. public dollars aountable to . and in chicago we open these i only desperately underserved mmunities. what wfound is schoo with very lon waiting lists. six, seven, eight, nine applicants for every spot. parents desperately looking for bett options for their children weaped have the job t

listen. i'm a n of the i actually caused three f academic failure tt were not working and when children do not show up, you close them down. tavis: you thinkhe numbers then indicate right n that the charter school works a well for students of color? do you believe that, sir >> the vast majorit of children in the charter schools come from th minority. tavis: you mentioned a moment o the maetplace. there are some whohink that thearketplace making anyind of roll role isisgaded? you feel dferent sflip >> too often, childn from very poor communities had few options and few choices. the weahy in our count have had many educational optns for a long time. ilways think if it is goo enough them r for them it is

good enoughor famils who dot have many resources. they have aariety of options to choose from. th works better i urban areas ere you have a greater population. you have four, fe, six, gre high school options that focus on math and sence and performing arts and international cuiculum. we started some single schools. everyarent, as you know, wts the best f their child doesn't matterow much education theyave or don't have. pents are attuned to what the best learning environment is for their son or daughter th more we can empower them and figure out what the best pat of the environments for their child, i think that important. we have to dratically reduce the drop-out rate. it is unacceptably high partularly for african-american and latino children. it is devastating to our society. the more we can empower parens

and get great options i'm convinced we caneduce the tr-out rate and increase the graduaon rate and make sure th have the -- fulfill their potential. tavis: i think the deserve the st for his orer child but when those optis orhoices are linked to a prototive. what do we end up here? >> this is not aut profit motive. the great majorit of these scrls not for profit. that reall misses the point. it is about creatg great opons for children. at we saw is schools that storically had 50% dp-out rates, we saw somennovative w schools that had 95% graduation res and 95% of those students went on to college. that is the kind of succeswe ed. we have islds of sens around e country. excellence around the

country. what have to do is sca up whatorks. we have to learn those bt actices and make surehat every childas chance get a great education. tavis: y have takenreat crerkts as youhould and the president anall of tse in the obamadministration talke to about the facthat the stimulusackage there was $100 billion set asideor education. more money for education than anything else. i ink that is a good thi but ho do you respondo folks who sa money simply is not the answer >> i couldn't agree more. money is absutely not the only answer. we said unprecented resources has t come with reform. simply investing in the status quo isn't goingo get us t where we need to go. as a coury, i thi we ve lost ouray when it comes to educatio theresident said by 2020 he was us to have the highest percent of college graduates i

the wor. a lotf people tnk thais the case and it is not. a number of countriesave passed us by. i ink we have to edute our way a betterconomy. so money alone doesn't begin to be answer but with unprecedented resources if we cou have dramatic reform at early level rlyhildhood, k-12 as well we have a chance do something extraordary in this country. this is a storic once in a ifetime opportunity. we have to make the mos of . tavis: to your latter points about this being a onc in a lifetime opportunity, can we draw a line in the sd he? every president i my lifetime saideptses to be theducation president. -- he wants tbe the ecation president. if ifour years or eight years that is not the case. at is if the hig school drop-out rate h not dropped what shouldwe say tn about whatou all attpted to do?

>> i absolutely want to be hel accounble. all of us d every educator and teacher and principal anduperintendent. we want to get dramatically better ande cannot continue t have a drop-out rate that is devastating arou the country. again, i want to be he would accountable everyingle year and pa scorecard o what we' ing around the country and ho all all o us accountable to make se our cldren are successful. we're going challenge everyone. ourselves, teachers, principals and mos importantly our students andur students' pares. parents have totep up and turn 's off atight and spendime reading to their cldren and getting to know their teachs and principals and exchanging mbers. they have to know there is no positi future outhere for them witho a minimumf a high scho dip loam pavement students that drop out are --

diploma, students ae dr out are t up for a life of poverty. tavis: speaking of countability, there are some people raising issues specifically with rerd to hbcu's. known as historically black collegesr universities. there is a cpaign now kicking ound the country to come aer you and the preside respectfully t put back money taken out of the budgefor hbcu ice. what are you doing to do? >> we put me money inur education dget this year and ase go forward stay tuned. they are mor important today than at a time historically. they produce 50% of our nation's minority teachers. we desperaly need more role models. wee going to work closely wit their community and make sure thuniversitys are successful.

tavis:tay tuned onhat one. back to the qution now. the money that w tak out that g this campaign kicked up. what hapned there? >> t moneyasn't take out. it was a two-yr approprtion that end. it is just simply sunset. tavis: what is the ministration going to do abo that? >> we increase our budget but it doesn't cover the ditch rble there in going fward. we're -- differential there going forward. tavis: can youommit youelf no toover that dferential? >> not tay. it will te congress' suppo. tavis: we talked about colleges and unirsities a little bit in is conversation. i was just looking at the.s. news and world report. every year ty come out with this edition of ranking theest lleges and universities. the average cost now, a i'm rounding these numbe up, the averagcost now for a public college education per anm in this country now i$25,000.

for th public education. r a private school now, the average cost now i$40,000 per year your thoughton those numbers? >> theare high and they are getting high at a rate that think is accelerating ybe too fast. a couple of things are happening. part othis part of that $100 billion is part of ely investment iearly childhood. $70 billionor k-1 rth of $30 billion to increa access to higherducation. increase pell ants and perkins loans and tax credits. at the back en we put in income-bas repayments so that fos that want to enter the public stor or want to be teachers or go into the nonproficommunity will have a chance to do these thingand nohave thes overwhelmg levels of debt to prohibithem from following their passion. and what i thi is going to happen, we've tried to putgain unprecedenteresources, the mo money since the g.i. bill to make college moreccessible and mo affordable. but let me tell you, tavis, wh i think is goingo happen

is paren of students are ally smart. ose schools where tuition is going up exponentily high, folks ve a lot of options out there. you're seeing otheuniversities being smarter and ry creative. they are going three-yr programs and nfrills programs. i think you'reoing to see them pture a larger share of the marketplace. again, parents and studes are going to ve with their feet and when costs are skyrocketg we think they are gointo pay a pre for it. the other thg we're pushing ry, very hard in our budget, is over the next dade we want to have almo $90 billion in w money for pell grants, perkins loans ando it without asking for aingle additional llar from taxpayers. what we're going to is stop subsiding banks and invest all of those rources into our udents, into our young peopl who are ching that dream of going to college. so we thinwe have a we think have a chance to bring unprecedents resourc into th next dece without going back to the public simply by dog the right thinby children and opping subsidizing banks.

tavis: finally we taed about wh you and the administration can do,ught to do and has committed to d over theext four to eight years, whonows? what do parentsnd everyday americans do about turning around this education crisis? >> well, i thi we all haveo do more. this i a clective responbility. it is an exciting time. we're obviously getng readyo go back to school. i would ask parents absolutely engage. m the father of two young children. a kinder gartnernd secd grade. we tur offer the tv and get to know our children's tchers a we volteer at the soolnd participate. parents have to a full and equal partn in the children's educatn. when you have at collabotion great things happen. wh that collaboration doesn't happen our childre suffer. it is so important tha all of us step upnd move outside our comfort zones to make sure we do everythinwe can to support our young people's dreams arounthe country. vis: thanks for the

opportity to tal wit me, mr. secretary. >> thanks. apprecte the chance. tavis: up next, benjamibarber onis upcoming national interdependence day conference. stay with us. dr. benjamin barber is a renoed political theorist and the founderf the enter dendence day conference this yeareld in turkey. inhe past ie been able to atend this wonderful eve. benjin barber, always nice to talk with y, sir. >> great to talk with you tavis. tavis: before i expla what i is tohose who have no heard about it, participati, couple of estions of news. last night on this programe had a fascinating conversation with dr. hard dean. what is ur sense of how this health ce debate is playing

ou or is not playing out, as i were? >> well, tavis, if wre going to have ir health care in america and not have single payer, which meanshe gernment does it all, then there has be -- there must be a blic option, which is to say the vernment has to provide a competive altnative private insunce companies anthis talk abouwell, maybe we don't actually ed a public opti, maybe we can get a cole of co-ops to do something is really nonsense if there is to health care, government has to be psent with a publioption so there is genuine competition and the surance companies know they have got toffer fair prices and fair conacts to those who they contract with. frankly i don't think therwill be health care at l unless there is public option and i hope to god that ans there will ba public option. vis: interdependence in part ans having civil dialogue wi our friends and ighbors around thworld. what is yo sense of how these unciviconversations of late have beetaking place around

thisontentious issue of health care? >> that is areat way to put , tavis. it is true that we are frids, -- we e used to being rather civil with our friends, colleagues, partne and our adversars abroad but nowadays i think we're more unciv to one another an we are to the anians or the north koreans. it is quite extraordina, the wain which people come to town meetings with the congressmen and out them down ancall them fascists because they want to just talkbout possibilitieof public options, a more balanced anfair code an we currely have. it is discouragi to see so many aricans who think citizenship means talkadio style polarized, angry polemics. i hopee get over that andan get back to an honesdiscussion about alth care. that'snly way we're going to see a public option and at's what we're gng to have to ha. tavis: howard dean on heah

care last nigh wha is your sense of this $100 bilon that preside obama has earmarked for educaon in the smulus package. is that enough? is it being focused in the rht way? your sense aa professor your wle life dedicated t education, the ste of education in this country? >> it isot enough tavis, we need a lot mor forducation. th stimulus packageas been much more productivehan i think a lot people thought it wa going to be but unfortunately a lot oft is going into so-called shel-ready projects, roads, construction and we desperately need the money iour schoo an universities. if youook at state universies across the country day, they are all cutng their bums one after anoth after a -- their budgets one afr another when we really needhem. in back of the problem wh the blic option and education and the publioption in healt is really aeep american

misunderanding of what public mean public mea democratic. it means us. it means us pviding health care for our lovednes and for r elders and people who need it. blic education means us providing educatiofor our chilen, for our yng onesnd brothersnd sisters and we somehow have thisrazy notion mean socialism. some bureaucratigovernment when in fact,t is really about uss democratic since the tang care of our own. so i wld like tsee a lot more money goingnto publi education. i would like to see a lot more unrstanding going into the need for a public option in health, which wouldn effect provideedicare and medicaid-style hlth. 90% of themerican people love their medicd and medicar for oers who need it and can't afford private healt insurance. >> ian take yr last commet to mean -- i don't know if you want me to ke it to mea this.

can take it to mea in this era of oma and of opennessnd chan and hope and of americans coming togetherhat aricans are becominmore nativist. what is behind them turnin more inward? >> tds hard for me, tavis, to discn whether americans a becomingoreativice or the media d politicians are. putting amerins in aage whe they don'telong. my sense, even with the present, as you know, i greatly mire, i tnk he is somewhat behinthe curve of the american people, not out ahead. i think the america are ready for the publi option and rdy for greater investment by t government, by the state in ducation for young people an i thk he has been maybe a lite bit scared -- nvousness, by what is goinon with as y talked about it it, the angry

polarize things we are hearing, people scrmingascist and socialist. evyone whoays there is somethin socialist about t prident's education program or the psident's health program has never set foot in a socialist couny. i he. inow what it is. democracy has nothinto do wh socialism . it is aut americansoing for their llow cizens what their citizens cannot alys do for themlves and providing rl coetition by eouraging the prate sector t compete by also giving them something to compete with, a genuine public option in ecation, health and other fields as well. >> tavis: you mentioned psident obam he was in turke as you well ow rlerer this yr speaking to a -- earli this year spking to a number of stuentsd. we'rgoing in a mter ofays. for people who don't know what

interdependencday is, what is it allbout? >> it revs to not some aspiration t have world gornment and everybody to get alg but to the realitylmost everchallenge we face inhe modern world, inlobal warming and disses like sne flu and h.i.v., they are aroun everywhere. some are pred tear to the lor rc that move around the world, it refers the reality that we live an interdependent world where all the challenges we frace eer dependent. we started enter dependence day a few days ter 9/11. it became so apparen the united stat had been insulated by its oceans and bnty fm foreign invasion and attack was in ts new interdependentorld to have st century, it is vulnerable to new force of terrorism we desnated september 12 as a

day to thi about andeflect on the challens of inteependence and the possibilies of more interdendent public policy and foreign polic sie then, we have en in six global cities around the world and this is the seventh year of meeting with religious, artistic, cultul, polital leaders, a youth sumt as well and older distinguied gues coming together to lood a and examinell of the issues, all of the challens and find out whether there is a way to do the things together we can no longe do alone one tion at a time. tavis: i'm wondering wther or not, thepiritf this conference you suspectill be different this yr as the fir one where we as americans go to attendith an african-amecan president,ubois, many day ago talk about interdependence.

how will it be different? the reception and cversation be diffent? when wgo with the backdrop of african-arican president? >> you sd earliere opened his presidentia campaign ater the gmp 20 conference i turkey. he h been in cairo since then. he has an open and fresh attitude towards the world, which has already begun to change forei policy a change attitudes abroad towards america. i think indeed, this interdependee day, our seventh one will have a new sen of prise and hope becau the most powerful and importa country in the world which historically as beensolated doing s own thing, belongs and part of the wld and leadership means ameri working in and cooperating with the world, not trying unilatera trying to impose its will on the

worl in i think the meeting will be shaped a influenced by the newbama administration and what thatept reprents to the rld about america being part of that world. tavis: benjamin barber, founder and creor of interdependen day >> il see you there tavis. that's great tavis: catch me on the weekends. yocan access our radio pod cast a pbs.o. od night from l.a. thks for wating, and as always, keep the faith. >> for more infmation on today's show, visitavismiley at pbs.org. >> next time join me with former wild kingdom co-host stan brock. that's next time. we'll see you en. >> there are smany things wal-ma is looking forwa to doing like helng people live

beer. bu mostly we're looking forward totronger mmunities. because of your help, thbest is yet to co. >> nationwide surance proudly pports tavis smiley. tas and nationwide insurance, working to improve financi literacynd the economic empowermenthat comes with . ♪ nationwidis on your side ♪ and by contributions from your pbs station and fro viewers like you thank you. >> we are pb