>> charlie: welcomeo the broadcast. tonight president ama's leadership style, is it rht fur the chalnge? ross doutha doris kearns goodwin, and ariann hfington. >> the genius of obama was never that he actuly believed i think in the ia that you were going to meet the middle and have this drm of perfect birtisanship wherethe republans an democrats can join hands. the genius wa always that he used the rhetoric o bipartanship to advance, not a far left agenda but a convention family liberal agenda. >> it is up to the president too allow the in this that are being said that ar nottrue to be taking people away who want to do what he wants us to do. yes, ihink the educatial task tha he still has before him h -- >> he doesn li

corontation. he belves that you can bring everybody along and you can reconcile competing interests because he's blliant enoug and because he's talented ough to be able to do it. the reality is that this is not happening. >> charlie: we continue th sir ben kinsley whose new movie is "fty dead men walking." >> the are really all by ance. then they nd themselves on is terble landscape where one deliberely has to exploit the other d if it doesn't work, dre away. and actually a relationship develops betweenhem where i, my chacter being,ou cou -- i supse cod call m a sonless father and his character beina fatherlesson.

es a very interesting dynamic between them. >> charlie: president obama as leader and sir ben kingsley's acting, next. captioning snsored by ro communications fromur studios in new york city, this is charlirose. >> charlie: as presidt obama presses rward on his ambious agenda the outlines of his leadership styleave begun

to emee. he has a aembled aroup of strong pernt alternates as advisors given congre enormous latitudend employed high profile media strategy. their remain impornt questions. as he given too mh latitudeo congress. too willing to compromise? is he trying to do toomuch at the same time? address these questions and more, three people who closely follow presidential politics, from washingt, ross douth columnist for the new yorkime f. los anges, ariann huffington ever "the huffinon po" from, boston, doris kearn goodwin t eminent presidential historia presidential style and presidential leadersp. what do you makef president ama? >>ell, i tnk whate've seen so fars a man that is surprisingly idemand of the office. think back to the days when people worrd about a 3:00 a.m. call cominin the middle of the night and this rookie wouldt

know whato do. he's had multiple crises and is steady and projecting an aura of self confidence. prably the most accessible presidenin our recent memory being on tow hall roaming around, talking to people, bei coonservative talk shows and cognizing that ethos keep th connectiono the people. but my guess is that the problems a even greater than he knew. j.f.k. once seadogs the campaign, we kept sang that things we bad when we were ripping against the republicans then it got office they were much worse tn we said. suspicion is that tngs are far worse than he thought that accountfor some of the difficulties he's having. >> charlie: all rht. arianna, you have chronicl this president'sise to power as well as his firstix months in office. how doou see this leadership estion? >> well, i agree wh dorithat he's a natural born leader. he's teaching how to be a human being not just president. he's of his ability no to ld

grudges, stacentered. all those are great cawlts. my concern is that he's demonsating a prefence for mpromising reconciliatioeven befo the fight has been ught. anif you look at t n.d.r. ste, for emple, when h wanted to push through somethi major like sial security, remember he faced silar problems even from withinis owparty. senatorennett wanted to water wn social security and he's amendment got majority of demoatic senators on his side. roosevelt, said, n i'm not going to sign legislation that is not basically real reform. he brought everybody along with him, from the obama soilf leadership. he's a pied piper, but heas not takenhe strong stand on healthcarer indeed on reform in wall street that wouldave led to change. >> charl: ross?

>> wel it'snteresting, you stard out asking doris about his style and his leadership. i think that we c still give the president an "a" or a-minus in terms of style. lead are ship,the verdict is more or lesslown complete. hes clearly the mt -- i think a lot of what doris said was true. he embodies the office very smoothly. i thinkverything we'v seen from him makeshim seem like a suessful president in terms of esiding successful plea over the count. but the rubbe hits the roadn legislation, i tnk that we're really entering the month when we'll see what rack obama's leadership is madef. i think the onening that been interestg i think, it gs to arianna's point out issues of compromise. but i feel like there's been an under estimation from thehite house to what exte a lot of the lem salt le city he's tryi to push through invoes

dealg with tensions withinthe democrat party. i think that the obama campaign spent souch time fighting with republics for understandable reasons acrosthe last- year-long mpaign last year thathey seem unprepared first on cap and trade now on healthre for the fact that the real political divide in washinon right now is between liberal democrats a centrist democrs with republins rping from the sideline. charlie: do you believe that, arnna? >> not really, bause we don'tsei mes to democrats. we see it when it comes to many interes. for example, heried to cut a de even though they denied it for awhile -- during t com paine made the very car that should negotiate for lower prices. no just givehat right away. clearly that dealfs cut. we got the memo at the hupping ton post. as a result,ajor cost cutting

portunities were lost. the same thing with insurance companie the same thing with republicans, even today when he was on the radio show improvised from the white house, he said again that he wanted to keep working with reblicans like senator grassley whore doing such good work. but senar grassily one wh talks about pulling the plug on marginalizing the policies. but he cannotive up on the ideahat somehow he can bring together all these ver diffent interests have equivale of a bill at the white house and they can now pass lislation in a way. that is his dream and it makes h kind of litt delusional abo the reality of t landmar legislion that is opposed by many interes. >> charlie: david, who y suested i read some of the

thing he's been writing. what perspective on obama, he not here i'll have him deliver his persctive? >> i would love to chann the ofessora blliant profess for yale who has been analyzing the obama leadership style. he made the point that psident oba as you kw is a student of the gre community orgazer, has actuly changed th perspective of the theory. heants to move fm t first day to the fourth ste which is reconciliati. he doesn't reay wantto deal with a method in between. inevitably any piece of legislation requir some real fight. and that'shere, according to the professor, we see the oba style in action. mar ground pronouncements, whether on hlthcare or on

closing guantano bay follows by something th under mes per hour his car vision. >> chaie: this from the president after the election in conversation withhe "washingtopost" interview. mostf our other gat presidents, there was th sense of workg the anglend beeping other people to their will. f.r. being the classic example and lincoln, just found way to shape public opinion andshape people around him and lead them and guide them witho tricking them or bullyi them but through the forcof what i ju talked abo that way of hping to illuminate the truth. >> iust find than to be a verym. not one that i mastered b i think that is wh leadership is at i best. does that defin whate have seen an effort to do that by this predent? >> ihink that's absolutel right. you think about the campaign a th campaign seems to all of us and indeed to presidentobama,

as mandate for change a ndate for bipartisanship. i think it's only natura that in t first month of his presiden, he's going to be moving in that dection. with thehope that somehow the country is say can, we wt change. weave hope for change,ut then two thing hpen. one isthat the financial prices and recession moved aot of people ay from that hope to more fear so that when healthre and energyeform and all these regulaty forms were put inlace peoplewere afraid too much is hapning too quickly. the otheside is that cgress dn't seem to accepthe mandate of the country and their business as ual to have as arnna described interestome and interest comes out. i think that the question is now, is he ready now to say, i've done what i can in the way i want to do and if headn't top that hwouldn't have been true to himself or campaign. f.d.r. triedven as e beginning of his admintration to have good relationships with the business community he thought he cld doit,oo. then finly he came to

pointment where he sd, i can't it any more. started really rallng against the business communi. you see sis of that inhe talk against t information compies rightow. but the ti has come i think for a shift in that leadership and there may have be some more rea tough words being said. not just i'm disappoind that ey're talking outhat. it's teddy rooselt would have said, "that's a lie, that's a damnab lie!" you are ying, dor, that the president has come to the plac where ariaa says he should have began. >> ion't think he ould have begun there. i think ife had begun there it uld have been a shift that would have bn against what he had omised in the campaign, against what he prised himself. and think now he has to move for toward cfrontational tile of leadersp, say if the republicans ar't going to be to go with mei'm us going to use democrats. at least he honored what he had to d. dies do the nt mean you give up that but y recognize that another aspec of leader

some ip ha toss come in to play. the ry one that arianna is lking about. i think if he made tt shift too quickly i don'think it's too late. i think he has cnce now to lay down that line. >> charlie: and do you think -- you do think it wld have bee a mistakeo start out that way because wha >> becauseverything he promised in the camign was a different ste of leadershi. if you flip too quickly, think, then pele will say, w wahawaiian who ran for the presidency? you ve to figur out that the country figu out he's going to give credit for tryin bipartisanship, ceainly he tried it, mbe too long but at least he gave it a shot. and i think right w he's at the point now wheree haso absorb what he's learned and the one thinwe've seen about him is man who acknowledges wn thgs don't go right, missteps, he america on the job. that the greatest lesson he lear from abraham lincoln or fdr and pt of what he is learning take more nfrontational approach.

hear toss mobilize the docrats and give u on the hope of bipartisan ships. >> charlie:it seems ear to 45, i may be wrong,ut looking anhaving read about this relationship he has and with lincoln that he saw lincoln as role model he waed to ulate hover so than fdr. on the other han it seems to me that you're suggestg he ma be moving to fdr, weealking out roleodels now. inerms much that's is necessar >> we thano moveowards fdr, we haven't seenvidence in the last three disale, -- da alone, even after senator kyky and hers made it clear that even if legislation didot include the public option, even if it did not include co-op or really watered down tohe point where it wasn't going to be rticularly mningful they still might not vo for it. despite all that, t president today once ain said that he

woul like to work with reblican senators. there is somhingnherently in his personality that is very much the pied piper. he's so gifted at that. he really wts to bring everybody along. t as a result he's a little blinded ofhat is actually happening and at the republicans haveone in terms of hijkingment debate and what is happening t the poll number. also i wt is hpening, for example, withhis proceed mice whh has been a very sort of significant moment. the public is nauseated th that, the white house d not vel with the publicbout what actly happened behind closed doors. what happed with pharm why did the president give ay. anthat is rely a ding rus moment right now in tes of his style of leership. aside fromhe -- that talk about leaders being either hd hoes or foxes.

a head hodge someone who knows -- hge hog, the fox knowmany this. right now we alreadying for hedge hog. we wansomebody who is a clear vion who c really work f change in vy clear defined incipled way. and that was obama greatne. that's whye mobized the country and he n't afford lo that. charlie: here is what i just heard you say. that ts president is naive and at this president is doing things behind osed doors that the blicoesn't know an that this president should be a hedge hog but he's fox. he's boming that. >> i think we want to be -- >> let me -- >> i promi you i was getting to y. i ju wanted to set u somethg, key it up for you. >> i just want to offer a slightly different terpretation the obama campaign.

i think the genius was never thate actually bieved i think in the idea that you were going to mt in the middle and have this dream of perfect bipartisanship wre the republicansnd delicates would join hands and sing "ku parksya" t genius wha was he used the rhetoric to advance not a far health agenda but a prty conventionally liberal 'geral calirnia if you look at policy proposals u see it on healthcare, they are the liberal wing of the decratic party going back 25, 3 yrs. there's nothg wrong with that. >> i would like to challen the way ofookinglooking at politics. you look at healthcarefor example, the desir for expanding healthcare covage and containg costs a improving the kind of healthcare as majorit of americans are tting is so universal you

cannotake it to the desire of the le -- >> that desire is universal.eve- >> there's nothing -- >> sure, that desire to universal. the question is how doou get there? righ >> in th way that we are talking about gting there. that preserves a cice. thatreserves people health insurance, that is the prerogive of the left. it will continue to look at everytng as right versus left we're missing wt's happening. >> no,but arianna allou're dog -- all you're doing is taking the left wing's position describing it as though it's a centrist position that earng agrees on. everybody doesn't agree thatthe leftingproposal wil actually let everybody keep tir healt inrance. everybody esn't agree that the left wing proposals will be -- >> may i say something? >> charlie: doris, why not? >> i want to say that i agree with arianna. what i think is interesting is, before these last couple wks, before the lt couple months, idently polls would show us that the majority of the people

knew theystem was broken, wanted it changed, wand to contain cos, wanted protecon. but nowomething's happened which is thateople are afraid when ty now when theye asked, do you like your healthcare pla yes, i don't want tohange. because ey have been made to fe that what's going t happen will be worsehan what they ve. but the obama admintration has to d is show people that if we don'do somethg they just use word "it's not susinable" they love to show how the cts are ring over the last years for individuals fomployees, we cannot keep on that path. you can't keep your healthcare unless w do something about it. somew that fear of cngehas overwhelmed the desirto have thechange. desi was tre. that's what they got to get back. >> charlie: it would seem to me that you are suggesting, doris, that therhas been a failure ofleadership to direct the debate and to respond to what fears ght be devoping and that is, at thend of the day a failure of presidential

leadship. >> it is up tohe predent to take command of the debate an to not allowhe things that are being saidthat are not true to be taking peopleway who wan to do whate wants them to do. so, yes. i think theeducational task that he ill has bore him is incomplete. i think he's -- i'd go backo arge like perothow what is going to b done, whatwere you already agree on, insuranc reform, lot of people want tha show pple that they want that. make them realize that will be a bi thing. show people wh this is going toappen if we can contain some of these costs and what we're going to d. people have toget a see of ties and wt is going to happen. right nothey have lost it. because the republicans have gone better job, they ud more emotional language. the death pl, the government is goi to have a between you and yr doctor. democrats d oba have to come up a the nguage on the oth side. >> you who some interesting to me -- >> crlie: go ahead ianna. >> solutely time to do. that but you are right.

has been failure of rea leadership. the esident allowed vacuum to exist. in to thatvacuum came all this craz theories about dth plan and pulling the plug on gndma. and that is the failure. rightnow of cose he hasime to fix it. but in order toix it he has to be clear, unauto can i have captain call and dry line in the sand what he wants tbe. they're not doing that. robert gibbs still talking in his latest press briefgs. this is not the time -- is time to say this is what needso be in this bill in order ft to be rea refor remember are thenemies of reform, so many out therhave gotten very good at calng evything reform. and at the ment terally ousands of lobbyists working to undermine rorm.

400,000 atay is spent lobby n. 350 former congrsional staffers a out thereobbying. six of them were staffers who -- this is really an overwhelmg effort to undmine reform the namef reform. and if the preside stops being pied piper for a moment says, this is what needs to be in this bill, come withme or get out of the way. that's what i need in order to have rea reform. >> charl: why do you think he hasn't done that? >> i think it is because --hat is one of the thgs that people love about him. temperamentallhe doesn't like confrontation. he believes tt you can bring everything along and u can reconcile competing interts becaushe's brilliant enough and becausee's cares mass particular enough to be ab to do it. the realy that this i not happening. en you haveeally major

opposing interts against the puic interest. >> charlie: ros >> i havelternative point of view if i may. just like general at the last wathey were so spooked byhe clinton health reform, by the fact that secret an was unleashed on the congress, the ngress then wouldn't take it. that they figured this tim congress has tbe with you on the take and be with you on the planning like,hey gave congress time but i'm saying again and again that time now up. i think there's time they ve done what they could with congre now time for him. i agree say, what is acceptable to him and get his democrats aboard a get something passed. i think once it's passed the fear is gog to be so much less than our ticipation. therwill be goodness about it. >> charlie: preside clinton seemed to hav spooked george bush on foreign policy and barack obama on domestic poli. that's whayou call legacy right there.

>> it isn't just onhealthcare. remember, the -- >> charlie: i sd domesc pocy. >> in intereters much the president's ldership style. we see in deali with wall street. same thing happed the. you can't say that what yo did is lt wing,e's basically given topher wl street that they want. not given what he had to give to people facing foreclosure or credit card default or lossf job. that again has been line in the sand with the wall street establishment. no challenging enough th peop he surrounded himselfin this case larry sommers and tim geithner and going for a wreck on sl quakes before the fight had been fight. >> charlie: is this a aut the president or misread of the public? >> i think - i think i part libera should hat lst nsider the possibility that even if barack obama was the perfect totally certain bully

pulpit cmanding arm-twisti genius of americanolitics that therstill would be a lot of blic anxiety out the healcare plan andit wouldn't all just be ginned up by fea about death panels. we've been tkingbout what ndr did in 1-r9 30 going after the great wealth al the rest of it. but if you loo at what fdras pushing the soci security, he was pushing -- o, heas pushing univeal program that clearly benited every america who was involvedn it. and, twohe was shing it at a time of complete hd total economic collapse. en people were in a deep state of poverty and panic. now we've justeen thrgh a serioueconomic collapse but noin empty kalpoe six like the great depression. by any stretch. and we're also in politil position whe public anxiety aboudeficit is levels that we haven't seen since the perot era. that's one webbed obama is pushing in to and that proposing

healthcare rereform package that is going toaise premiums a prably tax us and cut medicare payments for people who aeady ha health insurance in order to pay f people whodon't. now, that may be the morally rrect thing todo. buyou can certain plea see why senior citizens would anxious about hureds of billions of doars in medicarquuts. i think alsohere's a tendey, too,s simply over estimate the power of theresidency. you ardealing with a very difficult leglative system, you are dealing with senate which is a aangled -- tgle rass of cpeting rules and privileges ty need to get to votes. i think that ama could stand probably show a little moreeadership on this debate. but i think tha liberare ing a little bit hardn him. >> crlie: but, suppose he does exactly what dori has said he's come to do and arianna sa he suld have staed doing a long time ago. what wile be the sult, do you

think, on the hethcare reform battle? >> i thi that something wil be passed. because i think that the democratic pty is not suffiently suicidal. to de their great hope legislative vtory on his major domestic licy. i think th it's likely to be something that doesn't have public option and stripped dn that arianna probably consider sell out to coorate interes. but i think it will pass, at the point at it passes willbe period where everybody hls the political genius of barack obama and ss,h, he had the all the w, it was like the campai. he never broke sweat and so on. and th the country will have deal with the conseqnces of reform. whatever those maye. >> charlie: wt do youhink the conconcerns aref he in fact ds to the democrats does get a bill but it is a bill tt does not have a public tion? will that affect his future leaderip for the rt ofsay the next two years?

>> what would happen, a watered down version of healthcare reform without a public ops without abity to negotiate with phaa for substantial prices, cost reducti. basically whats going t happen is not going to work. there aren't going to be costs that are cut. there n't goingo be rl health ce provided to people who right now a beingocked t of the system. >> agree with ariannan. at he's g to go forhe blic option. ses what was said before by rosss right, too, i don't thk the democrats that are suicidal. he's got t persuade the blue dog democrats that if they don't ge hlthcare or if somethi that is condered not anything at all they're gng to lose. otherwise put the whole muscles behindetting him re-ected. and proce something that can be proud of. re mind the people the country th they felt passionate about doing

sothing, even the rich people who mayave to have aurtax put on them remindhem of wha it's like to be o of those moments where you really doing something th you can be proud . you've got to reinvt that sense of excitement and acmplishment that we felt during the civil rights movement th people felt during pas of the new deal. if he can put those coalitions together, the liberals wt are agreeing tt there's a moral equivalent to doing sometng here for peoe who don't hav heal insurance, fightgainst the health insurance people who are rewing the system in some way make the deal with people who have preexisting conditis give tm portability. ifou can cobblehat together t you need some sort of pubc option, she's right about the containing cross, in the end that's what's makinghe dash breaking the sysm as well as people aren in it. >> charlie: what does dick goodwin ink? [ laughter he thinks tha i'm crazy to be here inste of withim at the very momt. >> charlie: thought you might say something like, i'm the physal shall historn not -- i'm not going to do that.

he's wating obama with gre interests has great respt for him ho for the best. >> charlie he thinks he's weak at the what -- i didn't say that. i'll let my husnd come on and speak to you in perso >> charlie: ross, what ar theonsequences for the president? in th healthcare battle? any? will h come out of this and if he gets a bil as most us believe he will will it beas arianna suggests or will be able to -- >> i think i think so muc of obama bama's predency will turn. we're focused on healthcare but turn on the countes every roll aleconomic performance. i thin that we won't actually be able to judg the success or failurof hishealthcare packag in the short term one y or anoth. we won't know if it's controlling costs or two years or five years orenears. if you lk at the massachusetts healthcare reform, it's bn

years sie it was passed they're debating is it controllg costs, sting more an we thought. i this i this legislation pass, obama gets to claim viory. then say itasses this fall then you have year until mid term electns. the country's econoc perfornce inhat tim will obably determine what happe to the democratic partyn the mid term. if the economy -- so the healcare debate will be folded in it to. if you the economy is purchasing poorly, republics will say, look obama sent all this money on stimulus and healthcare and where are we? >> charlie: knowing that you'ren avid golfer and fan, where -- >> why where this going? >> charlie: one thing ght the pga tiger woods whoer never, ever lost before when he wasleading going in to the final round. ever. times. all of a sudde he was tested and waseaten and everybody in

golf said, my god, the headlines were "tyinger is human are wefinding out that this president is human after all that had bee sweeping him i to offi and allf the accoles that has come his way? >> well, ask me ain in a month think that the answer is, maybe. if you look back at the campaign think there s similar moment, just after the republican conventio fore sarah palistarted gives her disastrous terviews, seems like having palins nominee changed e complexion o the election you saw t obama campaign ba on their heels, obama beg tested not cessarily rising to t ocsion. thats laked a week. then palin self destructed, economy collapsed i think we're in similar perd here. ama is back on his heels but not at paint to say, he i being

beat ebb, he's human,so on. the next three weeks in washington will probably determine whether we say that or not. >> charlie: next three weeks, i'm going -- >> next six weeks. i n't know. i'm probably getting the timeline wrong. >> charlie: i hope. the fall. aumn. >> ross, arianna, doris, thank you very much. >> youe very welcome >> charlie: wll be right back. sir ben ngsley is here, s th us. he isegendary actor as you know forhe last four decades played characters rangingrom gangsters to andi. he w academy awards for that role i 198 his most rent filmis "fifty dead m walking", he plays a british police officer northern ireland during the 1900s. here is a look at the trail. >> tell me didn't steal that

car. >> i'mffering you a job you can feel good abo. >> let's see what he's me of. >> will you call me? >> what's different? >> don't tell laura anything, it's going toe costly.

wking around becauseof you. >> charlie: i am pleased to have ben kingsley back at this table. welcome, sir. >> one o my favorite tabs. if not my favorite tle. pleasure to be here. >> charlie: thank you sir, for that. u know i love the idea that care 2:00 terry study. >> a riller. actually quite oinary men rown together in extraordinary circumstances, that rely is, i findhat quite appealing aut thecript. whi wanted to do it. theyre really dinary cps. then ty find themselves on

th terribleandscape where one deliberately has to expit the other d if it doesn't work, drive ay. and bullet inhe back of t head, somebo got him. an actually a relatiohip develo between them where i, character bei, i suppo coulcall him sonless father and his characterbeing a fatherless son does a very teresting dynam between them. contraryfather-son. >> vy much so. >> charlie: whais yr character a who he is. >> his what was calledn those days a tou that means tha he was -- they were recruited by th special branch, myuys, to join, be

omoted through the ranks of the ira, the irish republican army,andthen report back to fantasticay dangerous job, repo back to the special branch as to when and where the bomb, is that they had planted, the asssination, is that they planned wod be carried out woulde detonated. >> charlie: thetitle comes from fact that there are 50 den mewalking. >> that right. saved ateast 50 men. in truth. >> charlie: why does the ira see a pattern s who could possibly b leaking he so thr search is o >> their seah is o and there is a sequence in the film where y see the conclusion of that search and what hapns when they do find a tout and he pretty well taken awayefore our eyes. very sent. male dinated society then

because we have femaleirector, carrikogland she brings an tra perspective whe by you doee in the corn areof each canvas or flame pretty wl throughout thefilm a mothera wifea sister. a ba is born half way through the film. the pregnancyn this landsca. children idly tting on a wall you know, y are the next generaon. because theye tching with ee waiting for the next scrap. karri brout a thriller tohe reen, this dynamic o affeion ofather a son to the screen, also brought a look what's going to happen to the next genre rakes. >> charlie: a conflict beyond both of them. larger than th both. the makes the people, nothingo do with who they are d what

they're about how they war player in the drama being played out. >> thasight. >> charlie: here is amaze scene which they go back and fort as to how he uld be tortured. the brith did it an ira did it. >> that's right. theyre standing on thedark side taking throh what they would doo him if ty find o th he is an informer. it'shocking sequence. >> charlie: somethi that intrigs me, ishowe can spo whhas the possibity to be a tout. there is some profiling volved, some in tuition involved, se cracter study inlved. there is some wahingnd more forking invold. certain degree of entrapment involved, too. they know thi guy was dealin in ston goods. but he was a petty crimil livingn his wits in very

hoste environment. throh the dealing in stolen goods course, there is in fact connection between the guy dealg -- giving the boy the stolenoods and the ira so ty exploit thatink. for all it'sorth. >> charlie: onop of th, th is a real story. yes it is. >> crlie: a man is alive toda >> he's in hingome where. >> crlie: for awhile we thought it was cinciati. >> i think iwas canada fur awle. >> we don't ow where he is toy. he had to gin to hiding because ey chased him down already once. >> yes. and shot him severabullets. >> charl: so he knewby whate did, by going io hiding we nev see his wife and soagain. >> i guess yon't perhaps think about -- i thk always in the back of my head, yes,that ppens to other people not me. >> charlie: ab to be

different. >>'ll be able to be different. i won't get caught. that male arrogancehat i think is parof the fm. i think thatarri skoglan in nonjudgmental way was able to film that vulnerable side of men who long for tha kind of camararie. there is sen of pride in t boy,whilst he's being proceed mode throughhe ranks of the irira learning that this would lead to veryuccessful betyal of the ira he's also tinglg with pride tt the ira hug him and embrace h. it manipates appeal to sahl sides of t male psyche. >> charlie: when i was watching thii thought about all the copshat go undercover in drug deals. >> my character actually is very interesting, because if itas aecium ton ke, jim's character would be the violi secon. i would be the slow cello. i hardly ve in the film.

where ilap his face, but for most of the fili have to remain icrutable. that iolved a degree of ting. for jim heas to display enthussm and delig at being a member of thehode islandra and of the ira he's more open, and more demonstrative. that's why my y -- >> you kild an person tt di't know any better. >> and you're innent? you and your mts are vunteer organition -- you and your mates are volunteer owing any sakes, wre does that leave you d your mates? >> i know that is guy, i know his i told you what i knowso you uld save his ass.

he's just ather -- you and your -- >>harlie: did you have one or is your character a composite? >> a composite i'm sure. i was asked, o the set by the director if i'd li toeet the real guys and i sai no thanks because i'd rather follow myn tuition anmy own likingor at pattern ofhuman behior and symmetry, if you le, so wilst i knew there wer there, i didn't wantto shake anyone's handnd say,'m playing -- >> charlie: since the fm has been made? >> i was in a bar in belfast, ring the filming, and three really enormous like wdrobes, enormous guys inleather jackets walked istood behind me. here imy guiness he hit anotr one next to it.

>> chaie: there storyhat did not wanthis movie to be made at all. the other character. >> martin? he's happy with it. >> charlie: after he wrote the book,hich you did not read ther or did you readhe book? >> i did -- just individuals i didn't meet. i did read the bo. >> charlie: tget thetory. i' read that he having written the bk did not want movie made thennce he saw the movie loved it. >> yes. he was very positive about it. which i thinks very healing. i think that t irish are self-healing nation, theyhave been through a lot. i think tha they wereeady for the story to betold. beuse they know that, acknowledge it really hpened first step to healing process. it really wantsaduys. do we wanto go back t this. looking at it saying, near 20 years ago, enormous changes now ying come on let's lookhat was really like. we did feel very welcome and

le blessed. >> chaie: i don't know if the director had this coersation. but wh you decide to go f ben kingsy, wha-- are you just saying i want a vy good actoor are you saying, i within a sy beast? or areou sayingsayg i want someone who what are you saying? >> i don know what she's ying. >> charlie: you want something that you s, get me either sir ben or get me a sir ben. becae they want some quality. cause you emby in many controls somebody who has a nd of discipline and determition and toughness and kind of -- >> maybe. >> charlie: d y believe that or not >> charlie, you put me on the ot here. let me evadehe question and give you swer answer at the sa time. >> charlie go ahead. >> i thk if i weren't an actor i might be in unifm in the military. >> charlie: do you really?

>> i do. >> crlie: are you serious? >> am. i had the hor of sitting wit genel sir michael jackson recently at dner. >> charlie in the balkans and -- >> yes definitely koso. i said, yoknow -- was awed byim -- i said, sir, you and i have one thing incommon. >> charlie: wt's that being in character. >> said, nobod tru unrstands what either of us do for a living. >> charlie: he wouldo, right. >> i think it's that that i fin fascinating abt the mitary. ere's a discipline, there's a training, thers a code of practice. and it's almost invisible tthe public eye we nev really know what is going on in their minds, how they make tirdecisions.

>> charlie: and actg? >> very similar. charlie: wha d't we understand about acting? >> not remotely judgmenta becausit's so buried and hidd and such an in utive d private procesthat we have to make decisnslmost between actions and cutin motorcycle crowseconds, it's very difficult to explai >> charlie: e father-son thin do y connect thato your lif when you -- >>o, i didn' actlly. what i connectedo, becse i love symtry in scripts. i'm very attracted to balce and symmetry in a, architecture, music, writing, poetry >> charlie: wha does it mean in acript? >> a kd of redemption. cause and efft. doyou this here, that will happen there. here, ladies and gentlemenis one of t laws of nature. >>harlie: right. >> and i found that what attracted me in the sipt, karri's wonderful guidce,

jim is fathernes fatherless son which is why h loves the embrace of the patriarch. whichever side. and i, my characr with his caer, ha his bitternes th he's not parof the mi 5 because ey wouldn't ve him, with his whiske and career that deprived him of close relationshipith his son who h describes as very busy. north dakota, he hasn't gone one any more. e two, the rawnes is together and for a time undirable circumstances ere's a hole. one saves the other's life. it's that symmetry, that patte of human havior that i find fascinatg. >> charlie: ao this. northern ireland as locus far show, for a movie, for awhile there peop thought itwas too complex, the would have had some films tt people are saying that this one somehow does get there.

>> good. therwas an opportunity fors film in livpool and karri ught for belfast, there for were in that enronment. i thinit ratcheted our see of loyalty to history, responsibility tthe story. we were being cleay watch ont by people who had been thugh terrible troubles mbe lost loved ones 20 years ago. and that did give us -- like a compressor givesou an edge, giveyou a necessity to tell thetory. >> charlie didn't i read somewhere that you went to northern ireland during some of the conflict and everything else. >> i did.inelfast they werevery. in 18989 i think the was to hold a film festival. it was underattend as you can imagine. th had a go, i think it was theruro hotel, i went to the

hotel where there was screening, a q and a. and wa-- i went through checkpoint-- steel cages, stopped vehicles much when i wa the last, i was there at a dinner hosted by thrince, ambassador. one of the chaps said, e those windows there? they were alblown i they we all blown in. imagine flying glass, big ple gls windows flying through a restaurant. thinkable. >> chaie: how many people died? like 10? >> yes. tonylair and it holds. whh is i'm sure where -- it's heart of that hling prices. the irish are greattory tellers. theyould say, tell the story, go on. >> charlie: e'll tell the story.

you today some have said that as an tor, good actor has more experice, grows a bit older thatolder that they nd to be able to playith fewer notes in a sens to simplify. to use less words a in a sense to bmore, almos more pure and to have lessee motion. ything to this, anywhere that resonates wi you? >> dinitely. foive me if i'm wrong, i ow u love paintings, the japanese hiku painter i think he was his 80s. and maybe older, heas saying, when i'm10 i shall, lookingt his ri paperith his wonderful brushes, i shall paint the mountain,he bds, the fiermen in the lake withne stroke. but apparently he would look at

his rice pap blank for aong time and then picup his brush -- so en i'm 130 charlie, at this table- >> charlie: fewer words. >> i'll be there. >> charlie: where is there? you got therewhere is there >> i don't kno maybe perhaps, i'm guessing he, perhaps it's that subject lime sensef symmetry, of the equation, youbegin to glimpse thedge of it. i think i define, i think god is every exnding equation. so maybe when we're there we justet to the rim of that equation. it said that some people go, ah, ju before they die. >> charlie: you are tod fully a film actor today. it's unlely you'll goack to e theater unless somody

cos along say my boy, let's that havone before you go. never say never again. but i'm so enthralled by the lm process, i amudging ang on my own projects. charlie: and producer. producer.i'll be act can in th. >> charlie: do yohave to do that or do it because it's re likelyo be sold if u attaed sir ben kingly wh it? >> iove doing. i loveicking ingredients. >>harlie: do you, really? >> i love knowing tha there's director, there'that designer, there's that wderful person for that part and th pt. thedynamic knowing that the dynamic could be so beautiful and trying to g these ingredients togeth. >> charlie: wt kinds o stories do you think you tobt tell? >> there is -- whai think i'm moving towards is the film may en with one eraordinary

gesture. the auence are completely captivated by this gesture, which hasn't been explained to them. ey just see, it's remarble. then the two hours of the film will bng the audience to the pointjust before it happened then s, "ah, yes, of course." the gestureand the whole story behi the gesture wt scinating me. >>harlie: you are offo -- e's acting in "mid summer's nice dream ." yes, she is. play playin queen of the fairies. >> charlie: great to have you, sir ben kingsley, thank you for joining us. see you next time.

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