>> rose: welco to the oadcast. tonight on thiirst program of a new fall season we take a look at prident oba, a speech o ecation, and a more important speech tomorronight on health re. we talk to jake tapper o abc news and former chief staff for president clinton an co-chairman of the obama transition jn podesta. >> this is the bigge presidential meghone there is. i mean, th president could be holdina press conferenc torrow night he's not. he could be giving an address from the oval office he's not. he is pulling out all the stops. he using the one ticket he's got in hispocket. e ace up his sleeve which the dress to a joint session of congress. >> we're very close toinally

doing for what for 60 years presidentsnd congresss have been trying to do, which is to oduce quality, affordable health corage for ery ameran. ad ind to keep calm keep tking and see ife can get there. >> rose:he challenges ahead for president oba next. captioning sponsor by rose comnications

from our studios in new york city, is is charlie rose. >> rose: we begin is evening with t president. he aressed the nation's stents today his speechecame a point of contention wn some conservatives claimed the president was mixing politicsn his message to the children. inead of politics, the prident talked about persol responbility. he urged students to overcome obstacles before them as he once did in his n lifetime. >> i know it's n always easy to do well inschool. i know a lot of you ve challenges in your liv right now that c make it hard to focus on you schoo work. i get it. i kn what it's like. my fatr left my family when i was two years o and i was raised by a sing mom who ha to work and who struggled at times pay the bills and wasn't always able to gives the things thaother kids had. there were tes when i missed having a fher in my le.

the were times wh i was lonely and i feltike i didn't fit in. so i wasn't always a focused as i should have been on school and i did some this that i'm not prd ofand i got in more ouble than i should have. and my life could have easily taken a turnre worse. but i was lucky. i got a t of secd chances and i had the opportunity to go toollege and lawchool and follow m dreams. >> rose: to talk abou the president, joining me fro washington, jake tapper. he is abc news's senior ite house corresponnt. i'm pleaseto have him ck on this initial proam after labor day totalk aboutnot only the education speech but also tomorrow night health ce speech asell as the looming questionf what theresident might do about afghanistan. welcome. >>hanks, charlie. it's great to be her >>ose: what does this speech and the little conoversy that developed say about pockets of sistance to the president? >> well, it says that there e still some very, very strong pockets ofesistance tohis

president a they are able to get their voices hed through some of the conservativemedia out there. therwas not a story tha was tting much attention in the so-called mainstreamedia. it was one that was being voiced among conservatives and really a lot it was based , a, this fearhat presidentbama is tryi to create a ptisan army and is doi this unscrupuusly and unprecedentedly to reach out and draft indivials to join ts partis army. there' not any eviden of this of course, but this is out there in the netherland of the unid states. and then there'salso the fact that tre is this very clumly inartful written preparatory terial for tchers sayi that they need to ask stents ask themlves how can i help the presiden,ow can i he e president. that's sometng they revised

after complaints came forward. what the wte house says they meant say is how can i help the president achieve his goal ineducing the dpout rate but obviously iwas not wrten the way they wanted to. and this all kind of coerged in ant period where tre was t a lot of aual news on th domesticront and it became something of a kerfuffle for t adnistration to deal wh. >> rose: is it all over now? >> i thi itikely is. buit is something that still exists out therendt's... i think at was most remarkable about this is that wt itsays abt the white house's inability to deal wit contversy such as thes. as ade as they've bee in the past of ung the internet and other form of media toet their messag out, there is now this oer worldf media that has nothing to do with with reporters and mainstre news ornizations, some of this positive, some of this is not positive in whichndividuals are able to get e)r messages

out throh other means witho havingo deal with reporters or editors or mainstre organizatis andhat has happened ithis case and instead ofdapting, the administtion was caught a little ft footed. agai there'no evidence that the chairman of e flora reblican party alleged president barack obama was seeking to indtrinate school chdren with socialist ideology. i mean, this i just something thatlit fact, the fact checking organizationalled a pants on fire untruth. and yethere it wasut there there it was being spread on the airwaves, there it was being spread on cable and other ys, on the iernet certainly. and thadministration had t de with it when school districts around t country were getting calls from angry andpset parentsho didn't want theirchool kids to be indoctrinated. even tugh past sociists such as prgen and george h.w. sh reached out to school dswith their milar stay in schoo

messages as prident obama did today with what was a very benign speech that t chairman the florida replican party had to say after he read it yesterday-- becausthe white house d to release it a day early to calm people down-- that it was aine speech that every kid should hr. >> re: and it als eoed one of his favore thes, whichs personal responsibilit >> it is. it was...ou know, in a way it's a sme that it was cover up by this message because i think that the firstfrican american presidentas a very cogent message to send to african american school kid who as you know, have a disproportionately hh rate of dropping out of high school and i think someby regardless of rac who camerom modt meanas have prevus presidents like chard nixon and hers but a lot of them have ce from more privileged bagrounds that he was ab to talk about bng the child a single mothe raised without a father and yet he made mistakes in high schoolnd yet he s ableo persevere b working hard. this is a mesge that's good

foamerica's school kids. now, you have people talking again on conservative talk radio and other place saying that they changed t speech because of this uproar. i have no evince that that's tr. we were told from theery beginnin that this was the message ofhe speech, he wasn't planning ontalking about y the obam ministration bought shares ogeneral motors or why $700 billion went to wall street. that was never part the agen. >> rose: all right. let me move to healt care. wh does the president... how does hsee this speecho congress tomorrow night? >> wl, i don't think he sees hit in the same wa we do in the media which this is an incrediblyrucial make-or-break moment where he needs to turn thin around. bui do think the adminiration knows that the media lovethe narrative and the media coulde wring the comeck narrative for president obama aftewhat a lot of people feel was very difficult august with town hal meeting and

other controversies, death nels and such. but i thk what he wants to lay out for the american peopl is where go from here in this debate, what he wantsin the bi, why he wants that, and whatt means... this is the most importantart-- what it means for americans. if they havet will imean? will the public option mn that all of a sudden they'v been switched to a government-ru health care an against tir wishes? if they don't have insurance, whatill it mean? whatill it mean to the people who are on medicare? wh will it me to the peoe o get hlth care through the v.a. system. these are the question that he has to answerthat a l of peoplere still waitingor answers. >> rose: the is no obama plan, is there? >> well, that's the poi. there are obama principles an there are fou plans in congress right no the might be a fifth any minute now,he senate finance committee... max baucus has given an outline to thether members of the soalled gang of six, the bipartisan group of senato basically telling th republics, you know, if y don't like ts, then come up with your plans and enough

deadne on wednday and... bu you're right, the is no actual obama plan. he needs to create one b as the administtion says, tying up all the loose strings and talkg about what he wants in one bill. buthat's been one of the problems and that' one of the reass why the ite house a president rack obama made it clear that they wanthe house and senate to ve psed something before t august recess in the absence of one concrete bill or two concrete bills there was is vacuum where oonents could talk about what was in this bill, what was in tt bill and there was no bill per se, no oba bill for him to defend. >> rose:kay. but bill clinton and lot of other people havbeen saying to him "you ve to have a bl." billclinton's also beenaying at to other democrats on the left and in th center and on the right. yove got to have a bill. ifou don't pass a bill... if you don't have health care reformf some kd, it will boomerang agait the tire presential agenda. >> and i think the agree with that.

i think they agree with the notion that theyeed to have sothing, even ifit's small, ev if it's muc more modest, even if itoesn't have a public option, they need have something because it's important to have an achievement as opposed to a flure. and you're goin to see, i think something come thrgh the house so iit has been winnowed down. you already have t house majority whi congrsman jim clybn of south carolina talkg about how he supports thidea of a trigger mechanism for theublic option. that is if the sings from health care insurance companies are t realize, then the public option mes io effect. that would be a huge comomise r democrats. although a lot of republicans say that's not comprose at all, it's ill a government-n plan, it just means eventually, not immediely. either wayhey are now talking to language of compromise, talking the language of-- in the views of many pgressive lawmers-- the language of surrende in the views of many

nservatives, the language of manipulati. but they are tking about trying to find some way toet this through in the house and senate. >> rose:ell nancy pelosi was there today. >> nancy posi was there. she and harry reid, the senate marity leader, they're talking about how they thi that there is going to be mething that's happen... that happens. they are a about 9 20% the and they just need t force their... theest of thi done. and i think th president intendto turn around lawmakers such as n nelson of nebraa, some of the blue dogs in the house, get them to me on board with more modestfforts. i think that's got to be the ultima goal here with the promise of me reform to come. >> rose: is the administration and is the president trying to lowerxpectations from thi spee? i mean, forall those pple who read a lotnto it and say this is the presideial moment, i the white house saying, wait minute it's not tt momentous, this speech? >> n they're not, which is interesting, because usually they talk down moments like ts

but, look, thiss the biggest esidential megaphone there i the presidencould be holding a press conference tomorrow nit, he's not. he could giving an address from the ovalffice. he's not. he'sulling out all the stops. he's using the o ticket he's got in his pocket, the ac up his sleevehich is the addss to a joint sessnfgress these are not...hey used toe very popula to do, but george w. bush, n including statesf e union addss, george w. bush only di it twice, bill clinton only did it twice. this wil be barack obama's second one. so ts is playing a big card earlier in theear in februar he d one having to do with the recession anfinancial recovery. so that's how important this is. that's how momentous i is. so you don't he the white house officials taing about how isn't important. they're not talking it down at all. i thatnderstand this is a significant speech. >> is there any iro special ection at the white house as to what mistakes they he made... th may have made in losing control wha somewhat of the health care reform debate? >> theres. theyon't talk muc about it on

the rerd but i think it's fair to say that theynow thatouse democrats voting for energy bill might have been some misplaced energy because a l of... though ironically some of the house democrats who voted against that energybill, the climate change bl said "i can't be with you on this, but i will be with you on health care." then, of course, theown hall meetgs and other concerns came and their support is unclear and lessssured. but i think that's one thing. i think thatthey know tha they mishandl or the democratic pay in general mishaled the town hall meeting protests. you might rall initiallythe response of the white hous was to disunt them asstroturf, as entirely by the health insurance industry. and ithink that bbed aot of commentato and a lot of american it isrong way because it was perceivedhat the white house was dismisng what are legitimate concerns that my americans have, even those town hall protestors whoere

e loudest and most vociferous wherever they camerom and whether or not their sentiments reflected the sentimes of the american people, there are concerns tt you see inhe polls of iividuals woied about homuch this is going to cost. worried out how this is going to affect thr health care plan.r not it will bring down costs. the cgressional budgetoffice has scored a number of these bills and said that it won't brindown costs. so the are litimate coerns. d by disssing the town hall protestors, it appeared to a lot of people that ty were dismissingegitimate concerns which i think hurt them timately and you've se that reflted in the polls. >> rose: the wte house feels like it has sentially turned the economic questn around. mean, they areoing around the country ying, look, we stopped the slide this is a viory for us. >> they think th the slide is stopd, that's right. they think they ha backed away from precipice. but you don't see a "mission acmplished" banner behind them. they knowhere's a lot of job loss that continues, that

unemployment is e lagging economic indicator, tha it's the last thing that is going to changeven after thstock market hasebounded significantly, assing that it does. job lossill continue. theyo expect unemployment will hit0%. there's brag dorcster owabout this. they're not... but they feel like they at lst have the tools in place tha some of the signs are there inerms of the cred markets, in ter of manufacturing, in terms of housing sales, new housing sales and consumers cfidence. they do think that thingsre on the mend and will continue to improve. but slowly. and their message there is very utious but optimistic. >> rose: what do they think their fall in numbers, their own. the president's approval prooufl rating. >> i thinkltimately they knew that the president' approval rang was not going t stay at 7 20%. and i thin that they s that this is a country tha is divided. that is... and even if you have a traformativeolitician as

they seeresident obama as it is goi to remain a country that is divided you know, presidentbama's victy over john mccain was substantial wh it came to the ectoral college and substantial when icomes to the stanrds of modern presidencies but itas 53%, 54% of the vote. it was not a clobbering 60/40 landslide like rald reagan had. thnation is essentially, they say, a 45/45 nation with 10% between and things are going t stay tt way for a whe. i think that ey do take comfort in the fact that they have had bad days befo, whher it's the reverend wright episode or wh they were losg to john mccain after... or it appeared likthey could lose to john mccain. ether it was two years before where we are now, where it loed like everybody was saying you know, rack obama, that was all pe, he certaly hasn't come alive on theampaign trail, he's inhird place in iowa. they loo back atog ds sand say "we've been here before, we can turn this around

now, of course, turning things around as a candidate to win 100,000votes in iowa is... comparedo the task hand small because, of cour, now theye trying to remake one-sixth of the economy in a way by revamping and reforming the nation's health care system. but i thinkthey do feel confident ultimately. >> rose: one last question and we'll address it at a later te o. for no general mccystal's recommendation his analysis, his ascerinment of what' going onn afghanistan is in washington. when with thehite house act o th recommendation? >> well, the say the slnt gotten any fi requestsor new resource from general mcchrystal yet interms of troops, inerms of resources, money, civilian numbers, civilian individuals i think they're pting this off asong as possie, quite frankly. and i don't. i've heard from democrats on capit hill who are concerned about this because they s they need to have some sort of talking points, a support for e war in

afghantan. 's eroding. and there needs to b some sort ofmessage from thobama admistration, state departmt democrats onapitol hill, talking abouwhy the war in afghanisn needs to be fought, what the interests are tre, why the u.s. continues to need to go after the taliban and al qaeda there. and they're not getng that from this white house. prident obama is hearingfrom lot of diffent point of views on this. he is puttg off thisdecision until he is thoroughly vetted all the arguments. buthere are... i mean, the people are veryivided even within this administration. some people s no, we don't want to send a more troops there, that's enoh, we areot ing to get bogd down in iq too. and others are saying, loo, we need to create tsituation as we did in iraq where aurge creates the political enronment that there can be some sort of reconciliation. but'll tell you, charlie, what's going on righ now with the election, with psident karzai and questionsf the letimacy of that past election, that's not giving anybody any reason to be

confident that this political renciliation is gog to come any time soon. >> re: jake, we'll come to that at anher time. thank u so much. as we begin our ll program, it's nice to have you here. >>hanks, charlie, hope to see you soon. >> rose: we'll be right back. stay with us. >> rose: president obamaill adess a joint sessionf congress and the coury tomorrow night in an attempt to revive suppo for health care reform. after weeks ofrowing opposition to democratic proposals in congress the president is expected to ouine his own plan and try to regain mentum for his top domestic prioty. the spee, some say will be a ketest to his presidency. joining me now from washingn to preview wt faceshe president is john podesta, he's served as chf of staff to esident clinton and was -chairman of the traition team for president oba. he now runsthe centeror americanrogress in washington. i am pleased to have h back on this progr. lcome.

>>ood to see you charlie >>ose: you have said t peter bakethe following: "it goes without sayi that a lot is riding now on the president's ability to reenergize the health care debate and bring itome to auccessful conclusion. noing will influence the perceptionf the presidency more tn whether h can be ccessful in getting a health care bill through the congress." >> well, i think... look, i think the stakes arehuge, charlie. i think this is his top domestic priority i think that we've go through a period now, particularly towards the end of a a congressional seion in jul and thfirst week of august d throh the august recess in ich things staed out. i think th president's alrey accomplishedome of what he wanted by ju reenergizing the debate. yo saw today that senator baucus put a plan on the table. that's been long in comingut w it's out there for people see. so... but the stakes a huge for the prident. >> rose: so what does he have to

do? >> you know, i think he needs to two things, really, he has to reenergi the debate with the amican public. i think he ha toemind people about what's in it f them. that hlth careeform passed by congress will add security to their liv, proce a system whe they know that theave access toffordable quality health cerage that they can't lose it at the whim of an insurance company, ey can't be discminated against if they have a pre-existing condition. but needs the als specific with the cgress. he's really probably speaking to two audiences, oneor the general public but also he's eaking to those members themselves ande has to tell themwhich is what i want to see in the bill." rose: that's been missing. is it... should he have done thatearlier? >> well, yo know, i think that he's been orating at a level of principle and he... you know, he's iicated what he prefs, but i think he lened, i think, a lesson from president clinton and our unsuccessful

efforts to passomprehensive health care reform at if you start with avery detailed bill the beginng, setimes it's harder to get congress toove. but there comes a point where congress needs the ldership of the president and thinkhat's at he's got to provide tomorrowight when h goes befor so i thk it's... you know, you calook at it from one perspective or t other, but i think congressas had the oprtunity to find their own y toward a bill. th haven't been able to do it. it's going to rely take the president'sleadershipnow to say "this is what i wanto see to get the job doneoving foard." >> rose: that's what you expect to hear him say tomorrow nit? this is what i want to move healthare reform to conclusion d to a leslative sucss? >> you know, i think he's going to be specifictomorrow night. again, he's going to lay out the stak. i think he's going to lay out, i'm sure, the problems with e current system. why we needit to eure the

success of arican famils and the success of american businesses. but think he's going say "and this is wha needs to be in the bil and ihink he'll do with some specificity. >> rose: whafear do you think has crept into thi debate? >> well, kind o the fear of the unknown inhe end of the day. i think that, y know, there's been a lot of misinformation. e's been a lot of down right outrig lies about wt was in the legislation. but think that the... you know the publi wasn't certain. you know, there re five different bis or there were four bills tt had mod rough committees and one discussion dlogue that was still going on i the senate finae committee. and they weren't sure what they could believebout what would in the final product and, cose, when people mht sometimes be wilng to cng do something ey really know needs to be changed whe th're uncertain about what theuture will hold for them. t i think the presidt can reassure them that what health

care reform will do will be not only to expand coverage r the millions of people who are uninred, the 14,0 people a day who are losing their healt insurance i this country,ut it wil provide stabity and security for peop who have heal inrance that it will be fordable and, like i said, it will b there when theyd it. we won'tave this situation where iurance companie when you get sick rescind your insurance and suddenly y're left out inthe cold. >> rose: becauseomehow... i'm asking, i'm not telling. somehow it sms that ts idea that my insurance... my health carewill b less good if what thpresident wants passes. and not ev knowing what the president wants. but that's the idea. thatomehow whai have is better than at they might change. >> well, again, i think there's been a lot of misinformation out there. we've d this dea panel

charge, which n't in any of these bills, etc. d so i think peoe did get concerned. i think thathile you still see majories of the amerin people who know we need reform and want reform and the are still morities for the major elements of the reform packages that are before congress i think the public reactiohas be to slip back, to be unrtain, to not knowhat they might have to pay for o wt cost it will be to them. and i ink the president could go a lg way to reassuring them that i they have coverage they like, they'll be able to keep it but they'll... there will be affordable options f people who don't have them today. and most importantly, there are gong to be the security know at when you move jobs, if u se a job, if... you know, yore out of work for some peod of time or if you' working as a low-wage worker in an indtry that's not providing health covege, that you'll be

able to access a quity plan. d most imporntly at an affordable pri. >> rose: okay. let ask youdirectly. where should the prident be specific? on what points? well, i think he's g to be specific on ese iurance reform points that i think actually theay there ma be moress on that tha on some of the other issues. fo example that you can't deny coverageorpre-existing conditions. there that should bennual ps on what insurance companies will pay ou or lifetime cap so that when you t really sick y're screwed, you'reut of luck. i think he wants insist tt there's no discrimination agait women as there is in the current systemparticularly in the individualarket. but beyond that, think he wants tobe specic aboutow this exchangeill operate. i think he'll na case for a puic option. the white houshas incated that they will make that case, i

think, hoping to convince congress that th is a good option tt should be in the exchge. but i thk that the very specific details of that he'll probably still leave to some me osh united nations on capito hill. the house has s version. the senate health committeeas its version. the finance committee wants to do it as ao-called triggeas we've heard abt in rent days. so ihink he'll leave some room r that to be me gauche@ed. bui thinkhe'll make thecase that having a safety net option that's national is a good idea. it only provide more choice r th plic and the public already kns that public plans like medicare or like what veterans have in the v.a. can be not only workable but very high qualityptions at ver reasonable prices. so he'l make the case for that. t i think, again he' leave a little of that detail for

further me gche united nations inongress, which... ere this habecome a point of conteion and one where i think he'll try to s where are the votes. particularly in the senate can he get some republican votes or canhe at least resure the moderate democrats in the senate that we're movingforward for a wayhat willnsuret the current system is built upon rather than replaced wholesale. >> rose: do you believe, as some other people in the houseave id, anthony weiner and others, that if there's no public opti that tre's no vote for them? well, you know, i... first of all, iavor the public option. >> rose: but that's not t qution. if there'sno publi option... i know y favor it, know the president favors it. >> understand. m going to answer the question. >>ose: go ahead. >> remember and in retrospect think it was a mistakehen presidenclinton in the state of the union address in 1994 ld up the veto pen and said "if i don't g it ectly the way i want it, i'm going to ve e bill." i think that w a mistake.

certainly inetrospect that was mistake. and in... you know, you td me that you're goingo be ae to ver 30 or 40 million people with health iurance that don't have it today,ou're going to be able to reaure people that they'll only p a certain percenge of their income for heth insurance andnly a certain percentage of tir inme for overall health care in this country and will do it by a state-bas public plan or a full-blown plic plan or a triggered-inublic plan. i wod say to my friends capitolhill "don't draw the line ithe sand yet. let'see how far we c get. let's see what th final produc oks like." >> re: does it ring true f you to stand up there and address the congress andhe american people and say "i'm for the public option, hover i understa that there's some opposition to it so whatever the congress does iskay with me." >> no, i don't think that'sood enough. >> i think that's maybe where things have be. i think heeeds to make the

case forit and i think he needs to kind of settle a ran of what acceptable. >> rose: ah so he haso say what's acceptable to him about the public option tomorw night. the time has come. >> rose: i tnk the time h me. you kn, again, there's discsion, i'm sure it's going on even today withhe so-called gang of sixh senator sno inarticular w's been, i think, very forthcomi in trying to get a reasonable packagput together that the white house can support. so, you know, will there be some room for me gauche united nations off the speechomorrow ght? i ink there almost cerinly has to be. but does he certainly need to lay out sometrong prarpler thessome guideposts, some... if you will channel the discussion so that congrs ows what at therange of acceptables. and then i think the individual members of t house and senate could see if they caget there. >> re: what's the leverage the presiden has?

>> well, heternly has..well, we've seenome lev recommend already, rht, chare? i think that t weeks ago the negotiators in the finance committee under senator baucus' leadershipere saying "we, we'll take as long awe need." all of a sudden toda ere's a plan on the table. >> rose: (laug) so whadoes that sayto you. uddenly nator baucus is saying "we'rgoing t mark up next wk." >> rose: (laus) that's te. >> so h has alot of cloud he showed some passion sterday in his lar day speech. he's got to get that passn back in ont of the arican public, i think. >> rose: a what's the mos imrtant lesson from the clinton effort >> you know, i think that... i uld say two ings. one is that it... and ts is my own reflection, i'm sure if y asked president clinn or secretary clinton they'd he a different vi. but i think we took too lg in

developing whatight be viewed or what i think people might have tn viewed asthe perfect plan and we... so the president laid that out and i think the procesthen was allowed too on for a while without any certaiy about what was acceptable as a compromise. we've alrdy come a lot further in this debate than i think that the debate got in '94 for ample, four committees have alreadyreported legislion. so that... we're sti well ahead ofhe game. we'veot, i think, the... if you will, t... a lot of stakeholders who were in stro opposition to the.. what president clinton watrying to saying "lo, we kw wehave to hav reform and we're willing to parcipate in it." so youe got the doctors. t just the a.m. but a broad spectrum of doctors saying "yes, we've got toave reform."

we've got e pharmaceutical dustry who said "we'll anteup our contribution and hopefully pay for the scalled closing of the doughn hole or subdizing senior citizens to be able to access drugs in the process." we've seen hospitals come the table and say "we know there's got toe delivery reform so we're taking care of people not st doing what iall piece work medicine, fee for service mecine that's just providg a lot o prescriptionsfor procedures that we kw have no medical value. $700 blion a year is wasted in this country providing procedures that ha no known medical value. so we know we've got to change the way we're doing business. what we still haven't seen complely forthcoming is whether e insurcendustry ll understand that now they have anobligation to provide prodts that are going to not just cherry pickick... hethy ople and leave sick ople to

the side but are going to provide pructs that are going to be bot cost effective and d thtrick for the amican people >> rose: don't you ink in the end they'll end up with some kind of trigg mechanism for public option? >> well,ou know, i don't kno that i think it will depend a little bit onhether that... by going in that direction it will tually produce som republican vote but thinkhat... you know, i think therhave been other ideas out ther for exame, biparsan ideas. i workith senator daschle at the center f america progre. >> rose: right he got togher with former senator le and former senator hord baker. what they proposed was leave it to the states. let governors trigger in a state-based publ option. you know, i'mot sure exacy where that compromise lies. but i know thain order to get health form psed, we have to have at least a majory and probably 60 votes in the senate to get legislatiassed. so i think there's goi to

be... again, i think the president s a role to play he and to say he's the bounds of theebate, here's what i want to see in this bill and then let' see where at least get a majority an hopefully 60 votes and with some republic support. and i ink the reason i think this trigger option has become so critical is because is been put forward by senator snowe who is a rublican, peopl do respect her. i think they think e wants to get to yes. don't think she thinks... y knowsome of thether moves and. by members on t republican cawux, putting forward endments that even after they wereacceptedidn't sh any sign of movement, the health committee inhe senate had 160 republican amendmen but got no repubcan votes. i think senator snow is in a diffent category. people know she's been athis for long time.

shwants to get the job done, her het is in the rightlace d i think people want to take what she has to say seriously. >> rose: so tell mwhat happens if there's this conversation. t's assume that rahm emanuel is the jepd o his time, all right? and he has a conversation with senator swe and he says "we need you. health care refo is too imrtant not to pass. we need you." what do you need? >> well, i hav the feeng probably those conversatns have caughtn and maybe not just with the chi of staff. >> rose: (lahs) but ybe at the presidential level. >> rose: i do, too. what d you think the dialogue was? you've been there. >> if inderstand what she's been saying so far both inhe nversation i thin with the white house but i tnk also amongst her senate colleagues, i ink what she's sayg to senator ucus, forexample, is

that we need to ensure th the subsidies for working pr pele have to be sufficient if we're going t say they need have health insance that they can actually afford health insurance. she's been actually pushing the process, is i would say, in a progresse direction, from my perspective, on that issue. but i think she' been a strong... d been foreveral months on sayg let see whether the private secto the private insurance mart can actually deliver productshat provided a "coverabeforewe trigger the national public option. anif th don't, then let's make in those are a public option ailable. sohats... she's been clear abouthat. ani think that people are going take...ave to take into conderation doesthat producnot only her vote but some republin votes. does it satisfy the moderate democrats in the sene? can you forge a comprome with r in the. withembers of

the house of rresentatives find a responsibl action? maybe you ca combine the idea i just put forward on wher states where a governorants to trigger a public plan in that ate combined with a naonal plan. i dot know exactly where the final product going to lie. it's going t ke further me gauche unitenations between e white house, the house, d e senate. but io believe she operating ifhe n good faith and people needs to take her seriously. >> rose: swhat happens to nancy pelosi, the spker of the hous who said unless there's public option,his billill not pass in the house? >> well, i'm fairly certa therwill be a strong public option that do emergand passes the house but then they need tgo to conferencend work out their differences. so if the ansr is that that's the only bill th could finally pass as a conference positn, you know, i thk that we'll

have to wait and see but then you've got to ha enough vos in t senate to be abl to pass that same bill through the sete. so, again, i think we're very close to finally doi what for 60 years presidents and congresses have be trying to do, which iss to produceuality affordable hlth coverage for every amican. and i think we need to keep cm keep talng, andee if we n t there. >> rose: are tse the benchmarks of this preside? keep cal keep talki, make a deal? what? >> well, i think that, you kn, i think president obama is noted for his cool. he's noted for his ability to listen to his ctics. and i think he'srying to borrow t best ideas from all sides but in the end of theday he also has the steel that it take i think, to say "we'r

going to finh this job, we' going too it thisfall, i ran on this, i promisethe american public. so did you, byhe way,y lleagues, particularly in the decratic party. so let's go do with this job and get it don we'ldo it, we'll be pctical about it, we'll do in the a way at produce deliverf, that will... so-called bend the curvas people talked about for the lasteveral months to reduce the orall strain that heth care isplacing onour ecomy, on amerin business, and on the federal budget and state budgets. but let's ay at the table until we finish thejob." >> rose: could public option ve been sold more effective? >> well, you know, a i said charlie, i thk thator people o currently have the publi optionpeople on medicare.... >> rose: right. >> people who have v.a., they

like it a lot. e quality or t... ifou ask the public whether they... how they feel about their own coverage, u look at medicare, you look at the v.a. it has higher perceage of approval than people in ivate secr insurance. so, you know, it seems toe that rather having gone off on this... maybe the esoteric of what t publiclan.... >> ros but does your rational and practical and political mind tell you that it could ve bee sold? because you have that evence and thos exhibits on your side. >> well, you know, i... with 0/20 hindsight probablwe could have all done a little b better job of bot selling what i think ought to in the final paage and i think perhapss importantly pushg back t lies and the distortions that came from the people who i gss are committedto the status quo. i could draw n other cclusion

than the thinkhat that what's going on in the country hukk dory. but i ink if you as business c.e.o.s, if u a small businessmen and women, ifyou ask families whore under tremendous burden from the doubling of healthnsurance premiu that's gone on over the last eight yrs, they'll say the status quo is not acceptable it's not fine, we'veto change the system and we out to do the a sensible way. so, look, i think if we... if there was... if you're ccking up mistakes that were made over the course of th summer, i woulsay not pushing back ferociously and hard against the lies and distortions that really sprang up in july and early august w one that i think that we could all ha done a better job of going bac after. >> rose: i'm surprised you dn't know that lesson. >> wel i think we knew it. i tnk that the... there was a lot of ass-roots activity, the

president was out the speaking about it. the... but clearly the intsity of t people on the other se did sort of catch fir i think it was fed b special terests here and by other people in washington. bu they fed it with distortion and there's a group of people, i don't know what it is, you cod makeour own judgme, 20%, 25% of the cntry that think that that is somehowoing to lead the untry down some til that they c't imagi and they're intense abt it. but i thin thatur side was sort of discussing with t rationality which maybe sometimes we... i ually ted ner to be that rational. >> rose: (laughs >> in my own lifeand try to meet it with as ch emotion and intensity as i'm accused o by the right. but, you know i think that the

president was trying to have a conversation with membersnd held out the hope of trying to... to try to find commo groundith some republica and maybe the intensity of the right rt of overwhelmed things f a while. but i think that's been riged and think that if youook at what happened towards the d of august and right n, he is resetting, he isedefining, he isoing to speak directly to the american peopl ani still think th want to hear from him, they want to list, theywant reform and majority still ests for that. >> rose: the deficit as an issue that somehow entwined in health care, that somehow becausef what's happen in the battle to deal with economi csis, e notionf too much debt has sunk i to theody pli of america d plays a lger role

than it ha and somehow the notion of having to al with the economic crisis has put a bit of fear in a lot of very rational people. >> well, ithink there no question that the agenda in part by just whate inherited, what president obama inherited, i hu. and i tnk he came into office passing the recovery bill which was a big bill to try t stabilize the econom there's en intervention in the economy so that...i'm sure that plays into it. but if you look at it just from the deficit perspective, i'd s o things. one is t present's been clear from the outseand i thinleaders on both sides of capitol hill have be clear that whaver we do, it has to be paifor, it cannot add to the deficit first off. second of all, that if we do nothing the biggest problem going forwar in the yearsand really the generation that we fa is theexplosive costs of

health care in our economy. so if we don't... that's why there's all this talk about quote/unquote nding the curve. ifwe can't create a delivy system which is producing tter value across the econo, then that will overwhelm e federal budget, state budget, business budgs, and famy dgets. and, you know, we'respending ice as much as our other deveped economies in the o.e.c. on health care. and while have some of the best heah care in the world as a society,we're not getting better benits that manyther countries that are spending far le. so i thinkthat this idea that weeed delery reform, need everyby in the system, weeed a higher dose of wellness, w need to. we need a system th's geared towards the best outcomfor individualatients rather than just running up the number o procedures to maximi profits inhe system.

all the things are agreed to and think ultimately they will pay tremendous dividendsoth on the federal budt side of the world t also just in terms of the strength of themerican economy going forwar we nd to do this. you talk to c.o.s, y talk to small siness people, they know we need to do this, at this is... wee on an unsustainable path. >>ose: then where arehey? >> it's another reason i think we'll still ahead and actually b successfu this fall. >> rose:nd i asse you're opposed to going throughthe reconciliati process? this that u want a full vote? >> wel you know, i want a substaive outcome. so i tnk it would be better if we... would be better if there's... y know there if there's a vote and there's some republicanupport for this bill. but i thinultimately the reason that the... if there w complete recalcitrae on the

republan side, if there was this idea that we would dig ouheels and try to stop ything, that thisption was available. and i would note welfare reform passed in recciliation, children's health insurance passed in budget reconciliaon, nursing home reform passed in budget recciliation. so this ia that this h never beenres just wrong. obviously bushax cuts passed in budget reconciliation. threpublican senatorat this time didn't seem toave any problem with that. w they want kin of the full blown rights to fibuster. well, you know, i tnk it would be better todo in the regular order, to trto getome republican support but i think preserving t option of doing this in budt reconciliation was smart the spring and it may be necesry in the fall. >> ros getting a bill is more important than any criticism that might come? >> i ink getting the bill is

critical to america, to the american people, to the strength of the americaeconomy. u know, i hope we don't go that way but coun't take it off the table for sure. >> rose: turning to another subject, you wt with former president clinton to nor korea. what was it like? >> well, it wasmy first visit to pyongyang. we went a humanitarian mission to get the two american reporters out of north korea we were successful in that. we were ve happy abo that. it was a tilling moment to be able to bring lau ling and euna l back to their families in america. we hadn extensive mee with kim jong il and wehad dinner with kim jong il. >> rose: what did you learn from that >> we were the as private citizens. i would say a couple things. one is that h condued those meetings in very raightforward manner.

he was clearly... ihink 's shown the effects of having h a stroke. m not a doctor, but fro what i could tell he's having h a stroke. he's still in charge, in command anhe was strghtforward in the discussions. and... but we were the as private citize. we briefed the whitehouse...-e s actuly... was, again, traveling, so i wasn' with the president en he talked to president obama but i've had a chan to ef broofly talk to the president out it and i've talked to the ople in the administtion and in the white house about my observations and i think theresident has shared his insightsith him. and, y know, beyond tha i think it's up to the gernment take the next steps d ambassador bosworth is over in japan and the republic of korea and inchina coordinating wit r allies in the six party

talks. we clearly surged the nth koreans and airman kim to get ba to the six partyalks. they want a bilater relationship with t united states and i think that while there's room for bilateral discussions with the north reans, clearly we ought tobe doing this in theontext in whic our key alli in the gion are participang. but i thin the thing we tried to emphasize th most was that the rth koreans have made a commitme to a denucarized korean peninsula. they did that in the contextf the si party talks in 2005. had the fmework agrment during t clinton administrati. we need to g back to that. need a denuclearized korn peninsul and hopefully throughhese diplomatic chaels, through the sanctions th security cil put northorea through the hardork of our allies in china and rsia andour allie in

japannd republicf korea a ou... the people who are partipating in those talks wi convince north koreans that thr future lies going down the path of denuclearizaon. but clearly things had gotte to a bad pce and hopefully now the have been someigns that they're willing to rngage andn . one ofhe other things we had made the request of wasthat they released the south korean businessman o they hadtaken also captive into the south korean fisherman whoad wandered io north korean waters. they have subsequently done that and i knowhat... m just ck fromeijing and chief negotiator for the kores whose name is also kim was ineijing forigh-level disssions with the chine as part of the 60th anversary of the p.r.c. but

obviously th were talking out a path moving forward. bu you know, again, i'm a privatcitizen, i was glato be able to do my part to accompany prident clinton to bring ose women homeut now it's up to the administration to decide how they're going to proceed. >>ose: do you believe... this is my last questio do you believe that sohow in thos meetings that there w the possibity of opening th door and achieving akind of denuclearid north korea? >> i believe tt th dirt applicatio of both pressure and sanctions and diplomacyan result in a denucleized korean peninsula. so i think tt... i think... i didn't hear ything that lede to belie otherwise. i think we needo stay with it and keep the diplomatic pressure on north korea remain open to diomacy, dialogue, and scussion and i think at we can achieve that result. >> rose: john, thank you so

much. we've kept y longer than you imagined you'd be here and i appreciate it. >> thanks for hing me on charlie. >> rose: hn podesta, thank you for joininus. we'll see you next time. captioning snsored by ro communications captioned by media access groupt wgbh accessgbh.org