>> rose: welme to the broadcast. tonight on ts first program of a new fall season, we tak a look at esident oma, a speechnducation, and a more important speech tomorw night on healtcare. we talk to jak tapperf abc news and former chieof staff for president clinton d co-chairman of the obama transitionohn podesta. >> this is the bigst presidential maphone there is. i mean, e president could be holdg a press conferee tomorrow nig. he's not. he could be giving an address from the oval offi, he's not. he is pulling out all the stops. 's using the one ticket he's got in his pocket. the ace up his sleeve whicis thaddress to a joint session of congress. >> we're very close to finally

doing for what for 60 years presiden and congresss have been trying to d, which i to produce quality, affordabl health verage forvery amican. and ind to ke calm keepalking and see we can get there. >> ros the challenges ahead for president ama next. captioning sponsored b rose communitions

fr our studios in new york city, thiss charlie rose. >> rose: we begithis evening withhe president. heddressed the nation' udents tod. his spee became a point of contentionhen some conservatives claimed th president was mixing politics in his message to t children. stead of politics, the esident talked about pernal respsibility. he urg students to overcome obstacles before the as he once did in hisown lifetim >> i kno it'sot always easy to do well in school. i know a lot of youhave challenges in your les right now thatan make it hard to focus on yr schl work. i get it. i ow what it's like. my fher left my famil when i was two yearsld and i was raised by a sile mom who d to work and who struggled at timeto pay the bills and wasn't always able to gi us the things tt other kids had. there wereimes when i missed having aather in myife.

ere were times en i was nely and i felt like i didn' fit in so i wasn't alwayss focused as i should have been school and i did some tngs that i'm not oud of and i got in more trouble than i should have. and my life could have easily taken a turnre worse. but i was lucky. i got alot of sond chances and i had the opportunity to go college and law school and followy dreams. >> rose: to talk abt the president, joining me fm washington, jake tapper. he is a news's seniowhite hous correspdent. i'm plead to have himback on this initial pgram after lab day to talk about not only the education speech but also tomorrow nig's healthare speech well as the looming questi of what the president might do about afghanistan. welcome. thanks, charlie. it's great to be he. rose: what does thi speech and the little ctroversy that developed say about pockets of resistance to the president? >> well, it says that thereare still some very very strong pockets of resistance to this

presidennd they are able to get their voices ard through some of the conservative media out there. the was not a story tt was getting much attention in the so-called mainstream media. it was one that was being voiced among conservatives and really a loof it was basedon, a, this fear that president obama is trng to creat aartisan army and is dng tngs unscrulously and unprecedentedly to reach out and draft indiduals to joinhis partan army. thers not any evidce of this of course, but this is ou there in the netherland of the uted states. and then there's also the fact thathere is this very clsily inartfly written preparator material foreachers sang that they need to ask udents to ask thselves how can i help the presidt, how can i lp the president. that's somhing they revised after complaints cam forwar

what thehite house says the meanto say is how c i help th presiden achieve his goal in reducing theropout ra? but obviouslyt was not itten in the way they wanted to. and this al kind of nverged in ant period wherehere wanot a lot ofctual news on e domestic front and it became something of kerfuffle for the adminiration to deal with. >> rose: is it all over now? >> i think it liky is. but its something thatstill exists out there and it'.. i think whatas most remarkable about this i that what it sa about e whiteouse's inability to deal with controvey such as these. as adept a they've beenin the past of using thenternet and other forms of media t get their messageout, there is now this other world of media that has nothing to do with with porters and mainstreamews organitions, some of this is positive,ome of this is not positive in which indiduals arable to get the)messages out through other means without

having to deal with reportersr editors or mainstream organizations and tha has happened in th case and instead of adaing, the administrati was caught little flat oted. again, there's novidence that as t chairman of the florida republan party alleged prident barack obama was seeking to indoctrate school childr withocialist ideology. i mean, this is just sething that plifact,he fact ecking organization cald a pants on fire untruth. and yet the it was out there, there it was being sead on the aiaves, there it was being spread on cable d other ways, on the intert certainly. and the adnistration had to deal wh it when hool districts around the cntry were getting calls fm angry and ups parents who didn't want their schl kids to be doctrinated. even thoug past socialis such as prarg and george h.w. bush reached out to school kids wi their simir stay in school messages as presidt obama did

today with what was a very benign speech that thehairman of t florida republin party had to say after he rd it yesterday-- because thwhite house had release it a day early to calm people down-- tha it was a fine speech that every kid shouldear. >>ose: and it aochoed one of his favite themes, whichs personal responsibility. >> it is. it was... you know, in a way it's a shame that it w covered up by this message because i ink that the first afran amican president has a ry cogentmessage to send to afcan american school kids who as you know, have a disproportionately high te of dropping out of high school and i think as somebody regardless of raceho came fro modest means as have previous presidents like richd nixon and othe but a lot of them have come om more privileged backgrnds that he was le to talk abouteing e child of a single mother raised without a father and yet he made mistakes in high school and yet he was able to persevere by working hard. this is a message that's good

for amica's school kids. now, you have people talking again on cservative talk radio and other places saying that they changed the speech because of this uproar. i have no evidencthat tt's true. we were told from the ver beginning that this was the message of thepeech, hewasn't planning on taing about why the obama admistration bought shares of geral mors or why 00 billion went to wall street. that was never part of the agenda. rose: all right. let me move to health re. at does the president... how doese see this speech to congress tomorrow night? >>ell, i don't think he sees hit in the same y we do the media whichis this is an incredib crucial make-or-break moment where he needs to turn thgs around. t i do think the admistration knows that the media los the narrative a th media could be iting the coback narrative for president obama afr what a lot of people feel w a very difficu august with town hl meetis and other controversies, death

panels and such. but i ink what he wants to lay out for th american peoe is wherwe go from here in thi debate, what he wants in the ll, why he wan that, a wh it means... this is the most important part-- what it means for americans. if they have,at willt mean? will the public optionean that all of a sudden theye been switched to a government-n health carplan againstheir wishes? if they don't hav insurance, wh will it mean? wh will it mean to the people who are on medicare? at will it an to the pple who getealth care through the v.a. system. these are the questis that he has to answer that aot of peop are still waiting for answers. >> rose: tre is no obama plan, is there >> wel that's the pnt. there are obama principles d there are fr plans in congress right w. ere might be a fif any minute now, the senate finance committee... max baucu has given an outline the other members of the -called gang of six, t bipartisan group of senars basically telling e republans, you know, ifou don't likehis, the come up with your plans and enou

deline on weesday and... t you're right, ere is no actual obama plan. he needs to create oney, as the adminiration says, tying up all tse loose strings and taing about what he wants in one bill. but that's been one of the problems and thas one of the reons why thwhite housend presidenbarack obama made it clear that they wa the house and senate thaveassed something beforehe august recess in the absence of one concrete bill or two concrete bills there wathis vacuum wherepponents could ta about what was in this bill, what was inhat bill and there w no bill per se, no oma bill for him to defen >> ros okay. but bill clinton and ls of other people he been saying to him "youhave to have aill." bill clinton's also been saying that to other democrats on t left and in e center and on the right. u've got to have a bill. you don't pass a bill... if you don't have health care refo of someind, it will boomerang agnst theentire presidenal agenda. >> and ihink theygree with that. i think they aee with the

notion that they neeto have somethg, even if it small, even i it's much more modest, even if it doe't have a public option, they need toave something because it's important to have an achievement as opposed to a failu. and you're going to see, i think mething come throughthe hse so if itas been winnowed down. you already have the hse majority whip, congressm jim clyburn south carolina talking out howhe supports the id of a trigger mechanism for the pubc option. that is if the savin from health care insurance companies are not realized, then the public option come into effect. at would be a huge comprome fordemocrats. alough a lot of republicans y that's not a compromise at al it's stil a government-run plan, itust means entually, not immediatel either way theare now talking tolanguage of compromise, lking the language of-- in the views of many progrsive lawmaker- the language of surrender. in the ews of many consvatives, the language of

manipulaon. but they arealking about trying to find som way to get this through in the house and senate. >> ros well nancy pelosi was there toda >> nancyelosi was there. she and harry reid, the senate jority leader, they're talking about how they tnk that there is going to besomething that' happed... that happens. they aret about 9 20% tre and they just needo force their... t rest of ts done. and i think e president intes to tur around lawmakers such aben nelso of nebska, some of the blue dogs in the house, g them tocome o board with more modest efforts. i think that's got to be th ultite goal here with the promise ofore reform t come. >> rose: is the administration and is the president trying to lower expectations from ts spch? i mean, for all thoseeople who read a lot into it and say this is the presintial moment,s the white house saying, wa a minu, it's nothat momentous, this speech? >>o, they're no, which is interesting, because usually they talk down moments likehis

but, look, th is the biggest presidential megaphone theres. the presidt could be holding press conference tomorrow ght, he's not. he could giving an address from the ov office. he's not. he's pulling out all the stops. he's using thene ticket he's got in his pocket, the e up his slee which is the aress to joint seionfgre. these are not... they used to be very popur to do, but georg w. bush,ot including stat of the union aress, george w. bush only d it twice, bill clinton only did it twice. this wl be barack obama's second one. sohis is playing a big card earlier in the year in februy heid one having t do with the recession d financial recovery. so that's how important this is. that's how momentoust is. so you don'tave the white house officials lking about how isn't important. they're not talking it down at all. i that understand this is a significant speech. >> is there anyntro special election at the white house to what mistakes thave made... ey may have made in losing control wt somewhat of the health car reform debate? >> the is. th don't talk mh about it on

the cord but i think it's fair to say that they know that house democrats voting for energy bill might have been so misplaced energy because aot of... although ironically some o the house democrats wh voted against that energy bill, the climate changeill said "i can't be with yo on this, but i will be with you on health care." then, of course, the town hall meings and other concerns came and their support is unclear and less assured. but i think that's one thing. i think that they know tt they mishaned or the democratic rty in general misndled the town hall meeting protests. you mightecall initially the response of the white hoe was to dcount them as astroturf, as entirely by the health insurance industry. and ithink tharubbed a lot of commentars and a lot of american it wrong way because it was perceiv that the white house was dismsing what are legitimate concerns thatany americans have, evenif those town hal protestors who were the loudest and most vociferous

wherever they ca from and whether or not their sentiment reflected the sentints of the american people, there are concernshat you see in the polls ofndividuals rried about w much this is going to cost. worrieabout how this is going to affect eir health care plan.r not it will bring do costs. theongressional budget office has scored a number of these bills and said tha it won't brg down costs. so tre areegitimate ncerns. and by dmissing the town hall protestors, it appeared to lot of people thathey were dismissi legitimate concerns which i think hurt them ultimately and you've en that reected in the polls. >> rose: thehite house feels like it hasessentially turned the econom queion around. i mean, they are going around the countrysaying, look we stoppe the slide, this is a ctory for us. >> they think at the slide is stped, that's right. they think they ve backed awa from precipice. but you don't see a "mission complished" banner behind them. they kno there's a lot of job loss tha continues, that unemployment ithe lagging

economic indicator, tt it's the last thi that is going to chan even after e stock market has rebounded significantly, auming that it does. job loss will continue. th do expect unemployment wil hit 10%. so there'sno brag dohester e about this. they're not... but they feel like they ateast have the tools in place tt some of the signs are there in terms of the crit markets, in tms of manufacturing, i terms of housing sales, new housing sales an consumersonfidence. they do think that things are on the mend and will continue improve. but slowly. and their message there is ver cautious but optimistic. >> rose: what do they thinof their fall in numbers, their ow.. the president's approval proouf rating. >> i think ultimately they knew that the presidens approval ting was not goingo stay at 7 20%. and i thk that theyee that this is a country tt is divided. that is... and even if you have a tnsformative politician as

they s president obama as it is gng to remain a country that is divid. you know, presiden obama's viory over john mccain was substantial en it came to the electoral college and substantial whent comes to the stdards of modern presidencies but it was 53%, 54% of t vote. it was not a clobbering 60/40 landslide likeonald reagan had. e nation is essentially, they say, a 45/45 nati with 10%in between and things are goingo stayhat way for a ile. i think thatthey do take comfort in the fact that they have had bad days bere, ether it's the reverend wright episode or en they were ling to john mccai after... or it appeared le they could lose john mccain. whether it was two years before where we are now where it oked like everybody was saying you knowbarack obama, that was alhype, he cerinly hasn't come alive on the campaign trail, he's in third place in iowa. they lk ba at dogays sand say "we' been here befor, we can turn this arou." now, of course, turnin things

around as candidate to win 100,000 votes in iowa is... compar to the taskat hand small because, of cose, now th're trying to remake one-sixth of the econo in a way by revamping and reforming the nation' health care syste but i think they do fee confident ultimately. >> rose: one last question a we'll address it at laterime too. for w, general mhrystal's recommendatis, his analysis, his asctainment of whas going in afghanistan is in washington when with t white house actn at recommendatio >> well, ty say ty slnt gotten any rm requests for new resours from general mcchrystal yet in terms of troops, terms of resources, money, civilian numbers, civilian individua. i think they'reutting this off long as posble, qui frankly. and i don... i've hear from democrats on capol hill who are concerned about this becau theyay they need to have some sort of talking points, a support fothe war in

afghistan. it's eroding. and there needs toe some sor message from e obama adnistration, state deparent democrats capitol hill, talking abt why the war in afghantan needs to be fought, what the interests arehere, why the u.s. continues to need to go after the taliban and al qaeda there. and they'r not gting that from this white house. esident obama is hearing from a lot of difrent point of views on this. he is puing off this decision until he is thoroughly vetted all th arguments. t there are... i mean, the people a very divided even within this administration. some peopleay no, we don't want to sendny more troops there, that's eugh, we are not going to get bged down inraq too. and others are saying, lk, we need to createhe situation as we did i iraq whe a surge create the political vironment that there can be some sort of reconciliatio but i'll tell you, charlie, what's going on rit now with the election, withresident karzai and questio of the gitimacy of that pas election, that's not giving anybody any reason to be confident that this political

conciliation is going come any time soon. >> rose:ake, wll come to that at anothetime. thank you much. as we begin our fall program, it nice to have you here. >> thas, charlie, hope to e you soon. >> rose: we'll b right back. stay with us. >> rose: president obama wil addresa joint session of ngress and the country torrow night in an attempt to revive support f health care reform. after weeks of grong opposition to docratic prosals in congress,he esident is expected to outlin s own plan and t to regain momeum for his top domestic priority the speech, some say, will be a y test to his presidency. joining me n from washiton to previewhat faces the president is john podest he's served as ief of staff to president clinton and was co-chairman of the tnsition team for president oma. he now runs the center for americ progress in washington. i am pleased to haveim back on this proam. welcome. good to see you, charl.

rose: you have saido peter bar the following: "it goes without sang that a lot is riding now on the president's ability to reenergi the health care debate and bring it home to a successful conclusion. thing will influence the perception of the presidency more than whether hean be succsful ingetting a health re bill through the congress." >> well, ithink... look, thk the stakes are hu, charlie. i think this is his top domestic priority. i think that we've gonehrough period w, particularly towards the end of a a congressional sessio in july and the fit week of august and through e august recess in whicthings stalled out. i think the president's already accomplished somof what he wanted by just reenergizing the dete. yousaw today that senator baucus put a plan o the table. that's been long in coming but now 's out there for peopleto see. so... but the stakesre huge for the esident. >> rose: so wh does he have to

do? >> you know, i think he needs to do two things, really, he has to reenerze the debate with th erican public. i think he s to remind people about what' in itor them. thatealth care reform passed by congress will add security to their les, pduce a system ere th know that ty have access to affordable quality healthoverage that they can't lose it at the whim of an insurance company,they can't be diriminated against if they have a pre-existing condition. buhe needs the aobe specific with theongress. he's reall probably speaking to two audienc, one for the general public but also he's speaking to those members themselves a he has to tell th "which is what i want to see in the bill." >> rose: that's bee missing. is it... shoul he have don that earlier? >> well, u know, i think that he's beenperating at a level of principle and 's... you know, he'sndicated what he prers, but i thi he arned, i think, a lesson from president clinton and our unsuccessful

efforts to pass comprehensive health care reformthat if you start with a very detailed bill at the begiingometimes it's harder to get congres to move. but there come a point where congress needs theadership of the president ani think that's what he's got t provide tomorr night whene goes befe. so i ink it's... you know, you n look at it from one perspective orhe other, but i think congre has had the portunity to find the own way towas a bill. ey haven't been able to do it. it's going to ally take the president's leadership now to say "this is what i wa to see to get the job done moving rward." >> rose: that's what y expect to hear him say tomorrow ght? this is what i want to move heal care reform to conclusi and to a gislative scess? >> you know, think he's going to be specific tomorrow night. agai he's going to lay out the stes. i think he's going to lay out, i'm sure, the problems withthe current system. why we need it tonsure the

success ofmerican famies and the success of american businesses. but i think he's goingto say "and this is whateeds to be in the bill" and i thi he'll d it wh some specificity. >> rose: what fe do you ink has crept into this debate? >> well, kind of the fear ofhe unknown in the end of the day. i thinkthat, you know, there's en a lot of misinformation. ths been a lot of down right outright ls about what was in the legislation. but i thk that the... youknow the public wasn't certain. you know, there were five different bills there were four bills that had moved throh committees and one discussion dialoe that was still going on inhe senate finance mmittee. and they weren't sure what they could believe abo what would be ithe final product and, of course when people might sometimes be willing to cling do something they really ow needs to be changed when they're uncertain about what the fute will hold for them. but think the president can reassure them that what hlth care reform will do will be not

ly to expand coverage for the millions of people whore uninsure the 14,000 people a day whoare losing their health insurance in is country, but it will provide stabilitand security for people w have health insurae that it will be affoable and, like i sd, i will be there when theyd it. we won't hav this situation where insurce compans when you get sick rescind your insurance and suddenlyou're left out in the cold. >> rose: because somehow... i'm asking i'm not telling. somehow iteems thathis idea that my insuran... my health care wille less good if what e president wants passes. and not en knowing what the president wants. but that's the idea. that somehow wt i have i better thawhat the might change. >> well, again, i think there's been a lot of misinformation ou there. we'vhad this dth panel

charge, whicisn't in any of these bills, et and so i think pple did get concerned. i think that while you still s majoties of the amecan people w know we need reform and want reform and tre are stillajorities for the major elements of the reform packages that are before congres, i think the public reactn has en to sl back, to be certain, to not know what they might have to pay forrhat cost it will be them. and ithink the president could go aong way to reassuring th thatf they have coverag they like, they'll be able to kee it but they'll... there will be affordable optionsor people who don't have them today. and most importantly, there a gong to be the securityof know that when you move jobs, ifyou lose a job, if... you know, u're out of work for some riod of time or if yore working as a low-wage worker in an iustry that's not providing health corage, that you'll be able to access a ality plan.

and st important at an affordable price. >> rose: okay. let me a you dictly. where should the presidt be specific? on what points? >> wl, i think he's got t be specific on thes insurce reform ints that i think actually there may there may be moress on that than on some of the other issues. for example that y can't deny coverage for prexisting nditions. ere that should be annl caps on what insuranceompanies will pay outrifetime caps so that when you get really sk you'r rewed, you're out of luck. think he wants to insist that there's no discrimination against men as there is inthe current system, paicularly in e individual mart. bubeyond that, think he wants to be specific about how this exange wilperate. i think he'll name case for a publicption. the white house ha indicad that they willmakethat case, i

think, hoping to convince congress that that is a good option that ould be in e exchange but i think that the very specificetails of that 'll probably still leave to some me glosunited nations on capitol hill. the house has its version. theenate health committee has its version. the financecommittee wants to do it as a so-lled trigger as we've heard about recen days. so i thi he'lleave someoom for that be me gauche@ed. but i ink hel make the ca that having a safety net option that's nationals a good idea. only provides more choice for the publi and the public already knows that public plans like medicareor le what veterans have in the v.a. can be not only workable butery high ality optns very reasonable prices. so he'll me the case for that. but think, aga, he'll leave a little of that detail f rther me gauchunited nations

in coness, which... wher this has beme a point of contentio and one where i think he'll try to see wre are the votes. rticularly in the senate. can he t some rublican votes or can het least reassu the morate democrats in the senate that we're moving foard for a way thaill enset the current system is built upon rather tha replaced wholesale. >> rose: do yo believe, as some other people in the hou have said, anthony weiner a others, that if there's no public opon thathere's no vote for them? >> well, you know, i... fir of all, i favor the public option. >> rose: but that's nothe estion. if there no pubc option... i knowou favor it,i know the president favors it. i understand. i'm going to answer the question. rose: go ahead. i remember and in retrospect think it was a mistake when presidt clinton in the state of the union address in 1994 held up the veto pen and said "if i don'tet itxactly the way i want it, i'm goi to to the bill." i think thatas a mistake.

certainly in retrospect that was a mistake. and in... you know, youold me that you're goi to beble to cover 30 or 40 million people with healthnsurance that don have i today, you're going to be able to rssure people that they'll onlyay a certain perctage of their income for alth insurance and only a certain percentage ofheir come for overall health care in this country a will do it by a state-bed public plan or a full-blownublic plan or a triggered- public plan. i uld say to m friendson capitol hill "don't draw the linen the sand yet les see how far wean get. let's see what e final prodt looks like." >>ose: does it ring trueor you stand up the and address the congress a the american people and sa "i'm for the public option, wever i undersnd that there's som opposition to it so whatever the congress does okay with me." >> no, i don't thi that's good enough. >> i thi that's may where things have en. i think needs to make the case for it and i think he needs

to kind of settleon a rge of wh's acceptable. >> rose: ! so he has to say what's acceptable to him about the public option tomrow nigh the time has come. >> rose: ihink the timas come. you ow, again, there's diussion, i'm sure it's going on even tod with the so-called gang of sh senator swe particularho's been, i think, very forthcong in trying to get reasonable packe put together that the white house can support. so, you kno, will there be some ro forme me gauche united nations off the spee tomorrow night? think there almost ctainly has to be. but does h certainly nee to lay out some strong prarpler th, some guidepost, some... if you will channel the discussion so that coness knows whatwhat the range of acceptab is. and then i think the individual members of the house andenate could see if they n gethere. >> rose:hat's the leverage the president has?

>>ell, he stely has... we, we've seen som lev recommend already, right charlie? i think that two weeksgohe netiators in the finance committee under senator baucus' leadership wersaying "well, we'll take as long as weeed." alof a sudden todaythere's a plan on the table. >> rose: (lahs) so wt does that say to you. >> suddenlysenator baucu is saying "wee goingo mark up nexteek." >> rose: (lghs) that'srue. >> soe has a lot of clo, he showed some passion yestday in his labor y speech. he's got to getthat passion back in fronof the amerin public, i think. >> rose: and what's t most importt lesson from the inton effort? >> you know, i think that... i woulsay two thin. one is that it... and thiss my own reflection, i'm se if you asked president clinton secretary clinton they'd have a different view. but i think we took too long in developing what mig be viewed

or what i think people might have then viewed as th perfect plan and we... so the psident la that out and i think the process th was allowed to go on for a while without any certainty about what was acceptable as a compromise. we've already come a lot rther in this debate than i thinkhat e debate got in '94. for exame,four cmittees have already rerted legislatio so that... we're still well ahead of theame. we've got, i think, t... if u will, the..a lot of stakeholders who were in strong opposition to the... what president clinton was trng to do sing "look, we know we ha to have reform and we're willing to particite in it." so you've t t doctors. not st the a.m.a. t a broad spectrum of doctorsayingyes, we've got to hav reform." we've got the prmaceutical

indury who said "we'll ante up r contribution and hopefully pay for the so-caedlosingf the doughnut hole or subsiding senior citizens to b able to access drugs in the process." we've seen hospitals come to the table and say "we know there's got to be delivery reform so we're taking care of people not just doing at i cal piece work medicine, fee for service medici that's just providing a lot of prescriptions fo procedures that we know have no medical value. $700 billi a year is sted in this country providing procedures that have no known medical value. so we know we've got change the waywe're doingusiness. what we still haven't seen completely forthcoming is whether the insurance indtry willnderstand that now they have an obgation to provide productshat are going to n just cherryick sic.. health peop and ave sick peop to the side but areoing to

provide produc that areoing to be both cost effective ando e trick for the erican peop. >> rose: don't youthink in the end they' end up wit some kind of trier mechani for puic option? >> well, you know, i don't know that. i think it willepend aittle bit on wheer tt... by gng in that direction it will actuly produce some republican votes. but i think tha.. you know, i think there ha been other ideas out there. for example, bipartisa ideas. i work wit nator daschle at the center for american progress. >> rose: right. >> h got togethe with former senator dolend former senator howard baker. at theyroposed was leave it to the states. legovernors trigger i a state-based public option. you know, so i'm not sure exactly ere that cpromise lies. but i know that in order to get health refo passe, we have to have at least a majority and probably 60 ves in thesenate to get legislation pasd. so i think tre's going t be... again, i tnk the

president has role to play here a to say here' the bounds of the debe,ere's what i want to see in this bill and then let's s where at least we g a majority and hopefully 60 votes and withsome republican sport. and i thinthe reason i ink this trigger option has become so critical is because it's been put forward sator snowe who is a repubcan, people do respecter. i think they think she wants to get to yes. i dot think she thinks... you know, so of the oth moves and... b members on the republican caw kux,utting forward amenents that even after they were acpted didt she any sign of movement, t health committee in the senate had 160 republican amendments but got no republicavotes. i think sator snowe i in a differencategory. people know she's en at thi for a lo time. she was to get theob done,

her heart in the right place and i think people wan to take what she has to say seriously. >> rose: so telle what happens if there's thi conversation. let's assume that rahm emanuel is the jepdf his time, all right? and he has a conversation with senatornowe and he says "we need you. health care rerm is too portant not to pas we need you." what do you nee >> well, i he the fling probably those conversions have caught on and maybe not just with the cef of staff. >> rose: (ughs) bumaybe at the presidential level. >> rose: i do, too. whato you think t dialogu was? you've been there. >> if i understand what she's been saying so far, both in the conversation i thk with the white house buthink also amongst her senate colleagues, i think what she's sing to senatobaucus, for example, is that we need to ensure at the

subsidies for workingoor ople have to be sufficienso if we're goingo say the need to have health iurance that they can actually afford healt insurance. so she's been actually pushing the process, is i would say, in a progreive direction, from my perspective, on that issue. but i think shs been a strong..and been for several months on sing l's see whether the private secr, the private insurance mket can actually deliver products that provid a "covege before we trigger the national public option. d if ey don't, then let's make in those aas a public optionvailable. so that is... she' been clear abt that. d i think that people are gointo take... have to take into csideration does that prode not only her vot but some repubcan votes. does it satisfy the moderate democrats in the sate? can you forge a comprise with her in t... with members of

the house ofepresentativesto find responsie action? maybe you n combine the ide i just put forward on whe states where a governor wants to trigger public plan i that state combined with a tional plan. i n't know exactly where the final produ's going to lie. it's goingotake further me gauche unid nations between the white house, the houseand the senate. but i do believe s's operating the n go faith and people needs to take her seriously. >> rose:o what happens to nancy pelosi, the eaker of the hoe, who said unless there's public option, this bill will not pass in the house >> well, i'm fairly cerin the will be a strong public option that es emeeand passes the hou. but then they needo go to conferen and work out their differences. if the awer is that that's the only bill at could finally pass as a conferenc posion, you know, i ink that we'll have to wait a see bu then

you've got to ve enough tes inhe senate to be ae to pass that same bill through th nate. so, agai, i think we're very close to finally dng what for 60 years presidents a congresses have en trying to do, which iss to produce quality affordableealth coverage for every erican. and i think we need t keepalm keep tking, and see if wecan get there. >> rose: arehose the benchmarks of this presint? keep cm, keep talng, make a deal? what? >> well, i think tha, you ow, i think president obama is noted for his cool. he's noted for h ability to listen to hisritics. and i thi he's trying to borrowhe best ideas fr all sides but in the end t day he also has the steel that i tas, i think, to say "wee

going to fish this job wre going do it this fall, i ran on this, i promid the american public. so did you, by the way, my colleagues, particularly the mocratic party. so let's go wn with this job and get it de. wel do it, we'll beractical about it, we'll do in the a way that produs delivyf, that will... so-calle bend the cue as people talked about for the last several months to reduce theverall strain that alth care is placing on our onomy, on amecan business, and on the federal budget and state budget but let'sstay at the table until we finish the job." >> ros could public option have been sold more effectively? >> well, youknow, as i said charlie, i think that for people who rrently have the public option, pele on medicare.... >> rose: right. >> people who have v.a., they like it a lot.

the qualityor the.. if you ask e public whether they...how they feel about their own coverage, you lk at medicare, yolook at the v.a., it has higher percentagof approval than people in prive sector insurance. so, you know iteems to me that rher havingone off on this... maybe the esoteric of whathe public plan.... >> re: but does your rational and practical and politic mind tell you that it coulhave bn sold? because you have that idence and the exhibits onour side. >>ell, you know, i... with 0/20 hindsight probably weould have all done a little bit better job of both selling what i think ought to be in the final packagand i think perhaps as importantly pushing back the lies and the distortionshat came from the people who i guess e committed to the status quo. i could dw no other conclion

than they think wha that what's going on in the country is hukky do. but i thin ifou ask business c.e.o.s, if you ask small bunessmen and women, if yo ask families who are under trendous burden from the doublingfealth insance premiums tt's gone on over the last eight years, ty'll say the status quos not acceptable it's not fine, we'veto change the system and we ought to do in t a sensible way. so, lk, i think if we... if there was... if you're chockg up mistakes that wereade over the course of the summer, i would sa notpushing back ferociously and hard against the lies and dtortions thateally sprang up in july and early august was one that i think that we could all have done a better job of going back after. >> rose: i'm surprised you didn know that lesson. >> wl, i think w knew it. ihink that the... there w a lot ofgrass-roots activity, the president was out ere speaking

about it. the... but clear the iensity ofhe people on the othide did sort of catch fe. i think it was fedy special interests here a by other people in washington. t they fed it with distortion and there's group of people, i don't know what , you uld ma your own judgnt, 20%, 25% of theountry that think that that is somehow going to lead thecountry down somerail that theyan't imane and they're intense out it. but i thk that our side was sort of discussing withhe rationality which maybe sotimes we... i usual tried never be that rational. >> rose: (laughs) >> in my own life an try meet it wi asmuch emoti and intensity as i'm accusedf by the right. but, you know, i think that the

president was trying to have conversation with members and held out the hope of trying to... to try to find comn grou with some republins and maybe the intensity of the righ sort of overwhelmed thingsor a while. but i thin that's been rhted ani think tha if you look at what happened towards thend of august and rightow, he is resetting, he is redefining, he going to speak directly to the american peoe. d i still think ey want to hear from hi, they want to listen, ey waeform and majority still existfor that. >> rose: the deficit as an issue thatomehow entwined in health care, that somehow because of what's happened ithe battle to deal with an economic crisi the notion of o much debt has sunk ino the bod plic of america and plays a large role than it has and somehow the

notion of having to deal with the economic crisis has put a bit ofear in a lot of vy rational people. >> well, i thk there's no question that the agenda in part by just what he inherited, what president obama inherited, is huge. and i think he came into fice passing the recovery bill which was a big bill to try to stabilize the economy, there's been intervention in the economy sohat... i' sure that plays into it. but if you look at it just from the dicit perspective, i'd say two ings. one is the presidenseen clear from the outset ani think leers on th ses of capitol hill have been clear that whateve we do, it has to be paid fo, it cannot add t the deficit fst off. send of all, that if wedo noing the bgest problem going forward in the years an really the generation that we face i the exosive costsf health care in r onomy.

so if we don't... that's why there's all this talkbout quote/unquote bendg the curve. if wean't create a delivery system which is pducing bett value across the economy,hen that will overwhelm the federal budget, state budget, business budgets,nd family budgs. and, you kw,e're spding twicas much a our other develope economiesin the o.e.c.d. ohealth care. and while we he some of the best health re in the wld as a society, wee not getting better benefitthat many oth countries that are spending far less. so i think th thisdea that we nee deliver reform, we need everybody the system, we nee higher dose of wlness, we need to... we need a system that'seared towards the best outcome fo individual patnts rather than just running up the number ofrocedures to maximize prits in theystem.

all thosehings are agreed to and i thk ultimately they will patremendous dividends bot on the federal budget side ofhe world but so just in terms of the strength of the amecan onomy going forward. we need do this. you talk to c.e.o, you talk to small busiss people, they know we need to do this, thathis is... we're on an unsustainable path. >> ros then where are the >> it's ather reason i think we'll still go ahead and actually be successfulhis ll. >> rose: and assume you're opposed to going through th reconciliation process? this thayou want a full vote? >> wl, you know, i wan a subsntive outcome. so ihink it would be better if we..it would be better if there's...ou know there if there's a vote and there's some republic support for this bill. but i thk ultimately the reas that the... if thereas complete recalcitnce on the

repuican side, if there was this idea that we would diin r heels and try to stop anything, that this option was available. and i would no welfa reform passed in ronciliation, children's health insurance passed i budget reconciltion, nursing home refor passed in budget ronciliation. so thdea that thisas never beenres just wrong. obviously bu tax cuts passed in budget reconciliatio. e republican senats at this time didn't seem to have any problem with that. now they want kd of the full blown rights tilibuster. well, you know, ihink it would be better to do in the regular order, to y to get some republican suppo, bu i thi preservinghe option of doing this in bget reconciliation was smart in the ring and it may be necessaryn the fall. >> rose: gting a bills more important than any criticism that might come? >> ithink getti the bill is critical to america, to the

american people, t the streng of the amerin economy. you know, i hop we don' go that way but i cldn't take i off the tabl for sure. >> rose: turning to another subject, youent with former president clinton to nth korea. what was it like? >> well, it was my first visit to pyongyang. we wenon a humanitarian mission to get t two american reporters out of north kor. we were successful in that. we were ry happy aut that. it was ahrilling moment to be able to bring lra ling a eunaee back to their families in america. we had an extensive mt with kim jong il and we had dinner with kim jong il. >> rose: what did you learn from th? >> we were tre as priva citizens. i would say a couple things. one is thate concted those meetings ia very straightforward manner. he was clearly... i thinkhe's

shown the effects of havingad a stroke. i'm not a doctor, but fm what i could tell he's havingad a stroke. he's still in charge in command d he was saightforward in those discussions. and... but we were tre as private citins. we briefed the white house...-es acally... was, again, traveling, so i wast with the presidenwhen he talked to president obama but i've had a chce to ef broofly talk to the presidenabout it and i've talked to thpeople in the adminiration and in the white house about my observations and i think the president has share his insights with him. and,ou kn beyond tt i think it's up to theovernment to take the next stepsand ambassad bosworth is over in japan and the republic of korea and in china coordinating wh our allies in the six party

talks. we clearly surge theorth korean andchairman kim to get ck to the six party talks. they want a bilatal relationship withhe united states and i think that while there's room for bilateral discussions with the nor koreans, clearly we ought to be doing thi in the context in whh our k ales in the region are particiting. but i thk the thing we tried to emphasize e most was that thnorth koreans have made a commitnt to a denlearized korean peninsula. they did that in the conte of the x party talks in 2005. we had theramework aeement duringhe clinton administraon. we need toet back to that. we need a denuclearized kean peninsa. and hopefully through these diplomatic cnnels, through t sanctions at security cncil puon north korea through the ha work of our allies in china andussia and our alls in

japan and republic of koreand r... the people who are paicipating in those talks ll convince north koreans tha eir future lies going do the path of denuclearition. but clearly things had gotn to a badlace and hopefully now ere have been some signs that they're willing eengage and thi. one the other things w had made the request of was that they release the south korean businessmawho they had taken also captive into the south korean fisherman who had wanderednto north korean waters. they have subsequently done that and i know that...i'm justback from beijing a chief negotiator for t koans whose name is als kim was in beijing for high-level dcussions with the chise as part of the 60th niversary of the p.r.c. but

obviously ey were talking about a path movin forward. t, you know again, i'm a prive citizen, was gd to be able to do my part to accompany esident clinton to brinthose women home but now it's up to the administration to dede how they're going to proceed. rose: do you believe... thi is my last questn. do you believe that someho in those meetings that there was the possibilitof opening the door and achieving a kind of denucleazed north korea? >> i believehat e dect applicatn of both pressure and sanctions and diplomacy can result in a denucarized korean peninsula. so i thinkhat... i think... i didn't heaanything that led me to belve otherwise. i think we need to stay with it and keep the diplomatic pressure on north kor remai open to plomacy, dialogue, and discussion and i thinkthat we can achieve at result. >> rose: john thank you so

much. we've kept you longer thanou imagined you'd be her and i appreciate it. >> thanks for havin me on, charlie. >> rose: johnodesta, thank you for joining us we'll see youext time. captioning sponsed by rose cmunications captioned by media access group at bh access.wgborg