captiong sponsored by rose communications fromur studios in new york city, this is charlirose.

>> rose: welme to the broadct. we are live th evening from washingtonnd new york for coverage of president oba's spee to the nation on health care. the presidt addressed a joint session ofongress earlier this eveninat a crucial mome for his top domest priority. after weekof decling public supporfor democratic reform ans, the president outlined his own proposal and called on congre toct. >> the are those on the left whbelieve that the only way to fix the systems through a sile payer system like canadas where we wldeverely restric the prive insurance market and have the gernment provi coverage for everybody. on the rht, there are those whargue that we should end employer-basedystems and leave inviduals to buy heah insurance on their own. i've said... iave to say that there are arments to be made

for beth tse approaches. but eitherne would represent a radical shift that would disrupt the health care most people cuently have. i derstand how difficult this health care debate has been i know that man in this country are deeply skeptil that government is lookg out for them. i understand that th politically safe move could be to kick the canurther down the road, to defer reform one mor ye or one more election or one more term. but that is n whatthis moment casor. that's nothat we came her to do. we did notcome to fear the future we came here tohape it. >> rose: thepeech is perhaps the mostmportant moment thus fain the presidency. joining now, anthonyeiner democratic congresswoman fr new york. aemocrat pennsylvania p.a. and a member of the centrist blue d coalitio also congrsman thadus mccotter of michan, theourth

ranking memb of the house republican leadehip. lar in the program we'll be joinedy a group familiar with the issue of health care and th program, joseph califano, former secretary of hlth, ucation and welfa during the cart administration, david brooks of e "new york times," al hunt of bloombergnews, and rich lry of the national revi. i pleased to have all ofthem onhis live broadcast tonight from washingtonnd new york. i begin wh peoplewho were there in the hall listening to this spee and ask ts basic question: what did the speech change? >> i hope what it chaed was tually informg the people of this country rlly what this bill, whathis leglation as we go forward entails. as i did my town halls, 19 of them throughou northwester pennsylvania, i foundhat there wasust a lot of confusi and a lot of peopl who were very frighten sod i think the president kind of laid out what this plan is and i hope that he

took a lot of the misrresentations and a lot of the fears of the people have had. >> re: do you think touched the bases that he d to do? >> oh, i do. believe he certainly took on all e mispresentations right away. almost scoldg those w really have been out ther spreading these really lies and misrepresentatns. >> rose: you'refor public option but you are a blueog democrat, ashey say, which is a group of docratsho very very song o fiscal restraint and economic issues. >> yes. you know, actuay... when i left f the august break i was leaning towards th public option but really wasn't sure. and honest as i got to understand the legislaon even better ovethat period of ti and talk to my constituents, i really belied the public option ishe fiscal responsible thing to do. >> re: allight. because it createscompetition? and therefore. >> exact. >> rose: iurance companie will have to meet a competition from a public option? >> we cannot contie.

i thought the presidt saying that heah care is theeficit issue, you kno, when we look at the defic... if we d't reign rein in our health ce costs we won rein in our deficit. and so i think the plic option needs be a component. >> rose: ony, wherere we today? >> i think the preside did a great job oflaying out why the status quo is unsustainable. one of t first questions i got in my town hall meetingss from people who hadealth care they thout they liked and s fine and was wdering why we're doing anything that impacted them. i think made a gooargument that it's a national imperative that we act. i was one of the peoe that got a little finger in e eye when he said he di't support single player plans that iupport. i thinfrankly we know for example the that hureds of billions of dollars e taken ouof the heah care system anput into profitsand overheads by insurance companies that want to bring in as much as theyan and pay outas little as they can. he made a good argument for why yoneed at the very least a puic option. ifou take a public option out, take it off the table o out of the plan, then there is nothing

in the bill that contains costs effectively. and that, think, is a very important thing to keep mind. he made a prty good argume thatou can't pubc option at this point. and that'sgood. but to some degree the speak was a rorschach test for members o coress who wanted to see in it whatever ty thought was the most important thingut if all amerans tuned in even f a moment and said,you know what this doesn't seem like the worst thing in the world, in fact we have to do it if wewant to accomplish the obctives of getting our economy going, it's ultimately goingo be a very good thing. >> rose: some are arguing tt he was prepared t.. well, he laid out the se for public opon he also basically said was not essential. >> well, he's been... in fairne, he's beenll over the map on the public option. he said at e point it was just a sliver of the pl. inact, to someone who is on the committ that helped write h. 3200, ian tell you if you don't have competition, there's nothing in the planthat makes surance companies anyore likely to low their sts. it's jusnot there.

the only thing that innts them to do it is they're gointo have to keep up with the lower cost governmt option. it's a realroblem. and it's not just me saying this. the c.b.o. also said the same thing, that we have ed the hands of the public option so tightly bend their own backs that you're not tting the sangs you really need . you need some form of competition. wee seen now 44 yearshat we've d medicare, erating, giving good coverage to pple but having obviously financing problems. the insurance companies far outspending them in terms of health care a inflation that we have >> rose: what do you say to those who argue th the president has bically said that what'scoming out of th nance committee his proposal? >> well, if that' the case he didn't say that. there are thosef us who believe in a vigorous public option that that might be the end game here. but i don't kn. you know to some degree, t month of august we ha been kind of flling around each in ourndividual districts trying to explain our potions individually. no one can do what the esident did tonight, which is sayin fr that bullyest of bully

puits that these are the things we need to do and he's why. in all fairness, there's no president's bill rightow. heept referring to his plan, including some languagebout tort reform, there's no bill for any of us to look a sooner or later pen has to hit paper anwe have to see what the oba plan lookslike. >> rose: before i turn to republicanit is also argued that this president has to have reform because i he doe't, if there's t a bill that gets through congre and you go to thelections in 2010, democrat will be in trouble. >> came to washington partly to do health ca refm. and when the president talked about we've been kicking thi can do the road for a very long time, i agree. and i've talked abo that a lot during my town hall meetings. at we have been kicking thi, along with man other issues, down theoad. can no longer do that. ielieve less about the elections t really for the future of our country i'm a new mber of congress. i came down here to do the

people's work and peopl asked us, small businesses askeds, indiduals asked us, provider asd us to do something about this health car system. we have got tomove forward on th. >> ros congressman thaddeu cotter of michigan, the reblican with us, tell me how you think e played with republican members? >> well, charlie, i think we felt le guests at a thanksgiving diner whe the family was fighting. as you know, we are a distinct minority in the house, we're a distinct mority in the sate, and yet to be portrayed as the reason the bill wasn' passed before our aust recess as the president originally asked is little bit disingenuous. the fact remains the democrat rty has to determine wheer they want e public option or not, whether they lieve the 0th century model of gornment, centralizationnd bureaucracy placed o a 21st censure consumer empowered economy is the ly way to fix thisand they don't really ne ournput this, although we're ppy to help if they me tt determination. from our point of view was really directed largely at blue

dogs who, unlike my cleague on the show, have not made the determination that the public opon is the only try go. >> re: so it didn't change any republican mds and you're ggesting this is not even about what republicans will becae that's not what's going to happen? >> well, weon't knowhat's ing to happen. think that's e of the things that did not happe tonight. while the presidt came down in favor of the public tion, it was more as ithis wasis perm proclivity to support th as opposed a ledgety necessity. think in manyays it was equivalent to havi the entire congress there a the nation watching whe he kind of voted "presenton this. and so the democratic party is going still continue their debate as to whetherhey go in this directi or not. republicans are going continue twait and say well, if you make yourind up that you don't think the public option isssential, com talk to us. d i think that's pretty much where we are. >>ose: the president also was a teacher tonight. he was sically saying there's a lot of munderstanding. you think he regained control the debate so that there is a

broader derstanding now among those people w focusedn this debate, elinating some of the confusion? >> i believe he made the first stone get to at point. but i think there's still more work to be done in terms of really educati the people about at we are trying to do in this legislation. you know, when i was at my tn halls i would ha a good hour and a half, twoours with people and there was still things i wast able to get to. so io think that was the first st, but we have to go further and i tnk administration has certaly a huge role in this. >> rose: the president is bk in control of thedebate? >> ihink so for a cple of days. and then it'sack to law making and that's somimes people making comomises. look, i do think the predent still needs to sharpen his decisionon a couple of the issues that are sll bouncing around in congss. the pubc option isust one of them. he made a had tip.. >> rose: wt more can he say about the public option? he's in favor of it, on chnological t only hd it is only part of thebill. that's what he sa tonight. >> in case, any other pt that

coains costs he bter tell us what it is because it' not in the present bill. >> rose: tre are those o will argue-- as you well know-- that we're going to ha is public oion in the house and senate i the senate,the senate will take the sate financ bill essentialland this will be decided in confence. and democratscan't afford to lose. >> well, perhaps that's right. i mean, you know,the senate has been referd to as the cooling sauc of democracy. recently it's been th icebox. it's the meat locker of decracy. those ofs in the house have been continually ming forwa tryingo get the ball moved downfiel putting aside the bank shot of legislation herehat's going to have to... it is absolutely essential that we solve this problem. for eight yearse had a house and a senate d a white house that was contrled by the republican they did absolutely nothing while th problem got worse. we're changinghat today. you know, democrats are committed to fixing this problem. and tha mccotter is rht. weave some intramuraloncerns t one thing is clear, we're not going toet a lot of republic votes on just abou anytng we try to do. rose: the ecomic sue the

president aftegoing through what h thought was important to say and where the consensus was, congressman mccotter, he basically ended by talkingbout first e cost element and tn nally about the letter... e eloquent lette from senator kennedy. on the fiscal issue d the deficit neutrality, will tt sell? do y have to buy into that? >> well, i think a lot of people were very concerned that supported the present's plan when he said he wouldn't sign thbill unless it was definite neutl because in eect that would kill t bill. the wa he's desned thi strains credulity. for exple, there's two things in the speech when we talked aboudoes this control the debate, what is the fiscal impact. first, he didt answer the trillion-dollaquestion about thpublic option. secondly he talk about $600 billion inuts in medare that cabe done without hping seniors. well, we should have done that the minute wealked in the door. and the other par of it that i find ierestingspecially from

a district obvusly coming tside detroit where we he a lot of employer-proded plans, is theresident said there's nothing in the bil that force employers to p people into a public option. well my conrn and many americans' ccern is there' also nothing that in the current bill that prevents employer from dropping yo into the publicption for the very reason the president laid out. it's very costly for employers to provide them. >> well, look, the fact is it's always puzzlg to listen to my friend fiercely defen cuts in medicare and then go off and beat the druabout how they're against single payer government-run healtcare. thers a certain schizophrenia in the republicanarty and maybe whate've finally seen here is that people uerstand medicare a little better and understandow successful it's been in fact, between noand the year 2013, which is year on in ts bill, employers are going to be able to drop people or not drop people justthe same way that they cod any oth time. t i think that fundamentally thad mccote is right about e thing. we do nd to finis legislating

some of these this. one thing we're not going to do is continue to have the stus quo in pla. d a lot of peoe that were disrupti the debate over the month of august, that's at they wanted. they wanted the status quo t hold. we're not going too that. the insuranceompanies have fierce, fiee defenders, many on the repubcan side of the aisle andwe're breaking rough thatnd it's ful hard but we're going to do it. >> chaie, if i can. >> rose: go ahead. >> theiggest most powerful enti on the face of the human planet is the united state federal government. and what we're lking about doing is expanding its and powers. so when anthony talks about not gettingrepublican supportr our schophrenia first, for the president to get up and stay entire health ca system is at the breaking pnt, when u pot to the successes and unfunded lbilities that aren't having anying addressed right now outside ofbeing used to maybe find costs f an en larger health ca program, that's schizophrenic, that's actuallyysfunctional. our concern has en if you start from the premise that you're gng to have larger contl of the marketplace, of ople's decision, we won't

support that. if you want toreak up and hav more competition, eower patients andconsumers, wee the for you. but, again, you'reoing to have to set that will debate internally. >> rose: is that whe it is? you know, i think as we go forward, binesses, asnthony mentioned, the can... they will drop people today. they will dr people next year. we caot have the status quo. we've got to move forrd. and the republicans hen't brought us the ideas. bring us some new eas. bring us othe ways to corol e costs. believe the pubc option is the way to control costs d i don't see any other way that we can athis point just come rward with new ideas. >> let me push back on t notion of governmencontrolled healthare. all wee talking abo now is whs going to take our money and give it tooctors. right now under medicare, medire, the federal government does it with 4% overhead. der private insurance, up to 30% of i is profits and adnistration who gives the money to docrs. insurance companiearen't doing a single cckup. they aren't doing a single operatn. the doctors ardoing that and undemedicare andevery

government plan we have, pple arempowered to choe their doctor as they e fit. the idea simply is wt role are the insurance companies playin in a this? are they playing a constructive role? are they apportioning risk? no, becau they're not covering anyone ove 65 and dropping anyone who gets sick. the question ishat are th doing and should they very, very least fe a little b of competition? if you want to advoca on behalf of insurance mpanies, th's someone else's job. buy stock their company or dial the 800-number. we should be advocating for taxpayers. and if wal-mart can negiate r low prices for its customers why shouldn't we do the same thing r our customers, meaning taxpayers. at's what this argument is abt. on the side ptecting the insurae company should notbe with where the democratic par is a that's not where we are. unfortunately it is whe a lot of people in congress on the reblican side of the aisle are. >> re: i have to lea it ere. thank you ve much. thank you very much. thank you, congressman, go to have all of you here. i goo new york, w, joe califano. joe, y have been involved in this issue for a long, long time. you listen to the president tonight, you've just listened to reactionrom threeembers of

congress. how do you s it? >> well, i me, as far as the president tonight, mean, i thinhe made a ver eloquent spee. i thinhe rubber ll hit the road when th go to confence with t house and the sete. but i think th reality... all thisonversation about controlling costs is only one way to control costs an that's to keep peoe out of t sick care system. the onlyhings in templ of sick care that wl help control costs are if we have a sittion which we deal with some of the thin thatcreate them: the fee forervice system for doctors. the way hospitals a reimbursed essentially on aost-plus basis. e failure to have any health omotion and disease prevtion. you know, whydon't the mocrats tax alcohol? why don't they taxobacco? substance abuse, charlie, alcohol an tobacco account. and the diseases they spawn count for 30% of the heah careosts in this country.

35% of medicars cost. i think tt i wish t president talked about a lot more. bui don't see a public option or a non-puic option, either of those thing,really having much of an impact on health care costs. the ings that proce health care costs are dtors, hospals, medica equipment manufacters, pharmeuticals. the insurae companies, sure maybe they're making toouch money, i don know. but their level of profit is not the iue here. the issue is the way the system is now organized, nothing in this bill changes that. >>rose: ri how willery,hat d you think of the esident? >> it was very able perfmance. giving barack obama a teleprompter i like giving a yo-yo ma a cello. it's a can't-miss sort of thing. but undeeath thehetoric about being open to republica ideas anthis door being open althe time was a very tgh an partisan speec

it w a speech that basally brushed aside all the concerns we saw in those townall meetgs expressed in august a to the attitude that the oppositiono these plans is basically ill inntioned or ignorant or both. and, you know, look, i think it will probably help him in the near term, but he still has two rely big problems in sling this thing, charlie. one is jus the concern that's been stoked inthepublic about the level of debt and defits. he tried to address that by saying he won't sign a bill that increases defit by adime in the near tm or the long-term. m not sure that's a commient he's going to be ae to keep. also, ople are concerned about health care, they don't like, necessarily, thetatus quo. but it's not crisis. it's not at the top of people's minds right now. that's the econom and that's the bs. jobs. so those are two big drags on his salesmanship over te in this pla >> re: a little bitof

housekeeping her ngressman mccotter, can you stay with us? don't know whether iad ntact with him or notut i could see a picture. the speec opportunity, wha has it changed and did the president help himself? >> yeah, arlie, he did. i thought he thread it ha needle. he had to appealo a mber of different gups tonight and i think he did that. you know, usuly a presidential address ke this is settg the terms of the debate. this, after a summerf discontent in which he let the other side setthe predite he got back in theall game. >> rose: does at mean he should have ma the speech before the summer? >> one can argue tha you can say bi clinton did and it didn't work. if he winse should have made the spee when he made i if he loses,e should have mad it earlier. what he did is he tossed out enough red meat, hgot the base excited, he invoked the memory of the great liberal lion edward kennedy. athe same time i think he went rther than rich lowr suggests, he made concessions

and impoant issues at risk for the at risk pools, medical malpractice. d the initial reaction a to beery enencouraging. benelson, the key democrat in the sete called it a game changer. the mai may said.... >> re: why is it a game changer? >> to ben nelson's view he' moderate enough soe can support things like th, i suspect. olympia snowe,ho is the mos coveted man in america today politically said that...he said more good things tha bad things about it-- politically that i charlie. so ihink from the president's point of view itas a good night. buthere's still a long way to go. >> rose: david? >> i thought it s the best speech of s presidency ju as a speech. i thought the teddyennedy part was extremely strong, th little philosophical part at the end was quite strong and t explanion was strong. and for what it achieved, politically it gave the liberals red meat stylistically, substanily i agree with al, it gave the center a lotf meat. whether u want to think about the public oion, it's dead.

the white house...he people insi the white house are completely committed on this they'd like it iprinciple but th know they won't get so they walked ay. on top ofthat, the cost is now down to.. >> ros and by doing that thers no threat of losing the house? or there is a threat. >> their view, whichs comptely correct as far as i can see, is thatthe left lever l never walk away fromhis bill just becse it doesn't have a public option because does so much else fothem. >> rose: al, y agree wit th? >> i do. i think it will b harderto get there, there wl be mes, ere will be threats, the maxine waterscongresswoman from california d others will yell and seam but in the end i think david right and i tnk wh they were doingonight was again,aying the groundork r some kind o.. whether is trigger, a co-op, some kind of backup tat least give them some excuse to say all right, we don't like it but w won't let th perfect bethe enemy. but a robust public optn is absolutely dead. and it's not ctral in my case. i think the present is absolute right on that. was not a big cost saver, it was not going to change insunce markets. >> re: was it necessa to

increase competion? well, the c.o. doesn't really thi so. ey estimate the st sings as reasonay minimal. then hgave the cenr some other thin. he mentned medical malpractice. ere's a john kerry optiono help increase taxes on.... >> rose: that's going back to wherbush was, is it not? >> but it's an idea a l of republicans have suprted through thback door. the's this fiscal trigger whh rich mentione the ir-clad promise to not do a plan that increases the deficinow or ever. now, that is an incredible promise. i don't think he can come ose to tha but thatromise made so vehently at least will probably appea to some be dogs. >> rose: joe califano, public option is dead? >> oh i think the public option is dd. i would ke to make a point. i think the ttom line is i do think the presiden got acros thathere's a basic element of social justice here that's important whetheyou're a

republican or decrat, which is to provide health ce to everybody. onhe cost issue, charlie, you know, can i just go bk to when we passededicare and medicaid? there were no... and the sts that have eloded. why? there were no pet scansthere were no c.a.t. ans, there were no... ere was no expensive chemherapy, there were no organ ansplants. nobody expecd the eression life expectancy that cam after we passed it. now, for the congress totry and say they can project ten year out what thecost of health care going to be is patently absurd. we haveo idea. we'rin the midst of a genetic revolution, ofa neurological revoluon, we don't know where stem cell researchs going to take us. we have dino transplants. we have artificial organs. there are tremends costs coming. that doesn't an they shouldn't pass the bill. i think we just ought to be realistic,nd this is goi to a comtment in term of social justice.

it is gng to be expensive. the on way to avoid t expense, as said before, is to provide tremendous prevention programs and keep people out of the sick ce system. >> rose: congressman mccotter, can you do it with prevention programs and kping people out of the system? >> wl, i think you ve to incentivize people to take preventative meares for their health carand be resnsible for . i ink you can dog that by alwing insurance companies and ople to contract for health care iurance that recogzes th rewards them fo doing so. but i think one of the concerns people have you're still taing about in the overarching goalof reducing the supply of healthare to reduce the cost. at is reallyhat we're looking at. and the problem is with the demographitrends that mr. califano pointed out with the people living longer, the ba boomers, the largest genetion in american history ling on, whatyou're goingto see is a continued rise in demand. and if theovernment tries to ntrol costs through addressing the supply issue, you're going to see costs goup.

that's why t projections that we've seen for other health care that are the governmentas provided thrgh medicare and mecaid, those expenses are in unfunded trillions over the coming years. >> rose: didhe predent's argument today abouthis is the right time, t urgency argument this is wha we need to do that thiss an iss of humanity a all ththings that he eloquently said make a difference to you or to other republicans? >> well, i thi the keys everyone agrees that what we want too is have health car reform that is effective for the american pple, that in a very chaotic time ds not add a compound and exacerbate the oblems they currently ha. but the questio is does the system actually provide the goal that is proffered or doe it actually makehings woe? the road to he is paved with good intentions. my argumt is what we hav to do is get this right. if we sh to a dgment for artificialdeadlines, beit no or had it bee before theugust

recess when thbill was firs demanded, yo increase the risk thathe dicm will come true. no matter howbad a pblem is, congress can always make it worse. we want to avoid that. >> charlie can i just.... >> rose: yes,please. >> i think one verymportant thinthat happened tonight is we got some passion from bark ama. this was not a cool spee, a teacher... ofessor in a college. we got passion. anyou need passion. when lyndon john season said th the we'll figh for medicare uil i have no breat left in my body" we got some of that from fmarack tonight that'she only way we're going to get gislation to provide coverage for allhe uninsured in this coury. he's the ly guy that can do it. >>ose: what would lyndon joson do that barack obama shouldo? >> o crlie. i mean, you kw, first of all.... >> rose: (laughs) >> (laughs) >> you can say that on the air joe! >> i c give you one simple ample.

oneimple example after the bill came out of the house lyndon johnson had harry byrd... harry byrd was the most consertive finance committee chairman over the w t white house. >>rom virginia. >> couldn't get the senate to move on the bill. and then he saidto harryi'll walk you out t your car." and he walks him out and he's got the press right in front of him anhe turned to harry byrd, he sd "it's a wonderful thing that wbur mills reported this bill out of the house committee today andou've got so many thousand unemployed. uninsured in yourtate, can you at least have a hearing?" and th press baered him and he finall said "ye, we'l have a hearing." and lyndon johnson said "good." you have to do tngs like that. bluntly put, youeed balls to get mething like ts through. (laughter) and i thin obam will. where he'sot to demonstratehat is certainlwhen he gets t

conference. are we on hbo, charlie? aughter) >> ias hesitating to say lyndonould have don some nut cracking, but joe tookcare of that for me. (laughter) rose: beyond that, david, at else does the presiden have to do? where es the prident go from thispeech in the president? >> well, he's actuall got get get legislation. congressman weiner pointed out, he kt talking about "my pn, my plan." there is nplan. but i ink it's pretty clear... >> rose: you don buy the argumenthat essentially his plan isthelan comingut of the sete finance... >> i thinke's shifted over esntially to the senateplan. so he's gotto do that. he's got to ttle the public option once d for all, which i ink.... >> rose: what els does he need do on settling it? >> well, i mean he's got to... he sort ofays... he say "i' li it, i understand it's going to go" but he didt explain how it's going to go, what people are going toet in favor of it. the nal thing i ink he has todo... listen, august

happened. the summer happened, this bill, at lea until the speech, was stl unpopulaand i thoughte went some way to easing so of that anxiety, especially the last secon of the speech, because itas not aiberal address. it was the left has some ias, the right has somedeas, i'm going to head straight down the middle. that's sort of quintesstial barack obama and i thought he recaptured some of his essential sell >> the sech. but he still hasoeassure people that government i't taking over. anthe weakest part the speech by far is the cost section. the idea that you're going to cut dicare and medicaid $600 billion without anyffect, that's riculous. >> rose: and youan't find savings... >>nd people know that waste fraud and abuse, you c't say that with a strait face. so he's got to explainhat and then he's got to explain essentially now it's not going to.... >> rose: is there a universal belief in whington and around the countryhat medice works and works well? that a consensus? >>ell, it's a popular program, buit's also arogram that's unstainable, like the rest of the health ce system. and the costs are eloding.

the speech wt well. as i said, thought it wa a great speech. thers a guy in washgton named doug elman dorf who heads the conessional budget office. heould utr a sentence at a hearing in a few wee and it could undermine it all. he could it err sentence where he says "this doe not reduce costs, this increasethe decits. then baby bara obama's own promise he's g to not si the bill. he's actually t to substantively bend the cost cue. >> he did a little biof that, i think, wh a proposal endorsing the insurance tax which someepublicans have embraced before. charlie,s ing to be a very messy procs for thenext seven weeks. joe califo can talk out what the legislave process is like. it is an absute can national guard that ts thing is a slam dunk in the house. between some liberals who tnk it doesn't go far enoug and some conservative, some blu do who say i w't vote for a public option. ey have delicate maneuvering

to do in the house. that's the balancing a. that's why heon't throw in the tol yet on the pubc option. but what he will do a some point, he has t say what h ll accept, whether it's a trigger, a co-, whateve emerges. >> ros when does he he to do at. >> what emerges from the senate finance committee ll be portant and then they'll start putting deals togethe so certainly by early october. >> i think, charlie ere's another factor here,t's not just democts and republans and blue dog democrats and liberal democrats. you've got incredible financial interests here. you'veot the doctors. you've got the pharmaceutic compans, the medicalquipment manufacturer the hospits. they're all going toe in int is battle. i mean, as al said, this is gog to be quite a bloody battleecause believe me in y billhat's going to r a thousand pages, they're gng to find language to protect themselves and ty're going to fight for it in committees and ey're going to fight for it on the floor. >> rose: will recallly, let me also say fory friendsl and david, to to me was a very

liberal speech. the medical mpractice business is just wdow dressing. we're talking about demonstration projects in e ates. it doesn'tven have to affect theactual legislation. $900 bilon over tenyears just let me remindveryone, the day before yterday that was considered aot of money. and remember a lotf these bills, t real spendin doesn't kick in until later inthe n-year window. so you'rnot really capturi the true cost. i thinfor a lotf people barack obama's lling this things a greatct of fisca restraint and fiscal conservatism. for most people, a neay trilli dollar new health care entitlemt is not a tural intuitive way address out-ofontrol government spending. and i ought tonight he w... ma a very eective case talking to seniors abt medicare. but let me tel you, if they manage to pass hundreds of billions of dollars worth of vings and medica without agitating a lo of seniors, newt

gingrich will be very, very jealous. >> rose: (ughs) >> he's jealous anyway. >> rose: the president talkin out the malpractice issue, congressman mctter, di republicans...t got a se out of republicans how you weigh thatin terms of theresident'sillingness to listen and to respond? >> well, first it w intesting because it was like watching him have a molar removed spitting out the phrase "tort reform." (laughter) and i don't ow that that evences a real comtment or the passion that we heard lked about for that specific issue. in fac i wld agree... i think it wasr. brooks said this is the quintessential barack obama. what he did is set a straw man on theleft, a strawman on the right andretended to be a centrist. >>ose: (laughs) >> the reality is, ifou're ing to come out d... you talked abo l.b., i meanold school joseph califano god love you. l.b.j. is a former legislator,

would come in, sit you dow from whatever room his place h wahiding and he would say "i want x, y,nd z in this bill." d he'd find a way to ma that happen. tonight as i said earlier, the public option, we're still discussing whether or not thinks that's essential. and at's the key ement in the inrnal democratic debate that haso happen. >> re: well, i'm noture we're discussinthat. i think david brooks carly sa... and al hunt both said that t public option night the president me clear it's not essential. >> wel you'reoing to have i think over 100 progrsives and other democrats thathave said that the publicption is criticalo their vote. and, look.... rose: okay, so they vot for hit in the house and then it goes to conference and... >> and tn it gets taken out. it becomes problemical. we used to do this, charlie. we used do this. we we in minority because of it we would start aill on the far right and try to move it to e ceer counting ourown noses whilthe public and the

demoats held their noses. evtually that doesn't work. an oldhairman once told me if you want to get somethg big done, you start in the middle and work out both ways. d i would hope that theyould come back, reset the butn and start to seriously work with us because do think it's possible to get something constructiv done. >> rose: so you think hehould stt all over? >> no, i tnk tt he should me and look at where we're at, where he's at, where his caucuses is at. because whilthere have been bills put out of committee, the ly bipartisan votes against this legislation have en agnst it. >> rose: this speech was adessed to both congress a tohe public. at has to change? what kind of sponse out there...r is itsimply now a se of push and pulln the congress? >> well, the inside ga.... >> rose: dynamiof where we are. >> the inside politic is affected by the ouoor politics in the sense that fe he changed public rceptions a little bit, particularlyf he appealed to me of those iependent voters o were gettingncreasingly skepcal of this plan, that's

going to me it easr for the centrist democrats and maybe even a f repubcans-- not very many, you're talking about two or thr at the mosts uck grassley, mike enzire never going to vote fo this bill. but olympia sno, as i said earlie, mig. so i he changes perceptionsut there-- and i don'know that he did, i susct he did-- at's very important, charlie th makes the insid game easier and i uld just go and jump in on this. i had just read about mecare. i wasn't around th, joe. t in reading about that medicare debate, whichis fascinatin that wasn't as easy... lyndon was a a magician but wilbu millswent through all kinds machinions. it took months a monthsand months of changes. that wasn't a simple, easy process. >> no, it wasn't. fairness remember joson real playedills. but think about it. in 1964, in those days social security increases were not automatic. the congress voted them every year just... every two years just before they wen home. johnson got the medare bill

attaed to the social security incrse that passed the senate, wilb mills had the social securityncrease in the house he wouldn take it. johnsonliterally killed the social security increase to build up pressure for medicare the next yea i meanyou have to understand. al iright. this is a tough, hard pross. and member, he then came to congress with this whopping liberal majorit and the first thing, incidentally, that happened in early 1965 was that wilbur mills had lost thr members of his committee tt we against medicare. lyndon johnson got t... speake mccormack tout three membs on that comttee that we for medicare. i an, al is rit. thiss going to be a tough fight. but i thin it is time for the prident to really get his fingernail dirty and try and get mething.

try and get somethi, charlie, make it a littleasier... the conference is going to be tough. but he has the ability to shape a little. to shape to some extent what comes out of the house, just ase... i agree with whayou said in washington. i heard that speec tonight as barack saying i' with max baucus a the senate finance committee bill. >> but when medicare passed... i saw a pollhe other day quoted that it was 6-0- in favor public opinion polls. soou had... re b.j.'s legislate management mattered but you also had the blic very strongly behind a very large change in h government worked. there's there's an a.p. poll that shows 20% of peoe pport either starting over entirely or thing happeningat l. so prior t tonight the democrats are tryi to push through a huge newreat socie style govnment program against the winds of popular opinion

that a much more difcult sk. >> well, think the president affected popular opinion tonight. i'd also note one other thg. e congress was a diffent ple than it is today. we had rghly half the republics in the hse and half the replicans in the senate vot for medicare wn it finally came to the floor. wead libera republins in both bodie... legislative bodi. we don't really have much of that tay. >> well, also, joe, wh you had ck then was in addition a very politically effective president, you had somekillful legislator including the aforemenoned mr. mills. think that's a proem this president has. in the house, with the excepon of henry waxman, i'm noture they havthe skillful legislors and with ted kennedy gone i don't know who u have in t senate to shepherd this through. i think that's a real problem. >> i d agree wi that. the numberf people whoave experiend putting together complicated pieces of legislation just isn't tre the way there was the 1s. then you havto issue, which rich elud to. part... why isthe bl

popular now? i thk one, people have had loofgovernment sved down their throats for od reasons and baover the last couple months, they're a little nervous. it's not a country that's attuned to have having big government. >> rose: are they worried aut vernment or the defit and the cost? >> many my view... and ithink that's why t president understands that, that's whyis rhetoric about themerican characteis so central. america has a tradition. the traditi is lited gornment. and ontop of that you have defici. you have what' going to b.. i don't kn, our public debt to g.d.p. wille 83% by 2019. soou have a great deal of anxiety. then the thi thing is it's almost impossible, it's very hard, least,to pass a major piece of legislati in a time of economic anxiety. in 1964, itas boom time when y have economic anxiety, you tend thave people pulling in, risk averse, htorically that's been very hard. now, having sd all that, i still thk it'squite likely they will pa something.

>> rose: is that perhap the reason the president is taking credit for stoppingthe slide of the ecomy and saying that whilpeople still ht we have turned the corne so topeak? >> well, it test ild up... lien, this is what i did. i dot buy that argument but in the white housthey're firmly convinced thestimulus packa was a home run for them and ey'll say look, we did this, now u can trust us to do health care. >> ros is... in washington today, the question of gornment intervention and some of the issues that have be expresseon the program tonight a hugeear and somow has the president los that debator lost controlf that dedate terms of the roll of gernment, which he tried to make again tonight? >> well, the country has been this way for 200 some odd years, resistant big government. we do not have a european lfare system. the are deep reasons we do not have a european welfa system. there's ju an innate suspicio i think whenyou hear in th wnalls.... >> rose: but now they'resaying people like medire. >> well, the cntry is plit.

people like certain prrams th benefit themsees but on the whole. in the abstract they don't like th sense of b gornment. >> rose:hey like the veterans health care. >> right. there are certain things once they get used tothem they tend to likthem and it's often made thateople are plosophically libertarian and operationally libel. so that' a contradiction. nonetheless,hen you have a system where 8 20% of the people are satisfied with what they have and you have someone ty thk is a big government liberal cong up with plan, well,they're going to be suspicious. >> charlie.... >> rose: hold on one, second, joe. i think th 8 20% number is totally fraudent. i think people are satisfi with insurance until ty have to use it. anthe people who fear they may have to use it also aret satisfied th it. i do agree with you there's always thischizophrenia on the role of t. today, prie, people are far mo friendly to theidea of reguting financial institutions and the like because of the csis. but always tre's the sense of will they too far a that's why theritics were so

effeive this summer. >> rose: ando they have an it strategy. congressman mccotter, tell me your response to the aument the predent made again when he comped american health care to other countries. when he made this an issue of our character. i' leading to ts point from you. is this thtime forealth care refo? >> well, ithink it's always time when you ha issues such as $60 billion in waste and frd in medicare and medicaid to go fix it. >> ros but that's the issue, whether yove got fraud in medicare or e fact that we have too many cases of... too many people... >> my int is that ere are exisng reforms that can be targeted specifically to t to be helpful in the system rather th a big, large, overhaul of this. remember we re toldy bill inton the era big government is er and now we're finding outhat that's no longer thecase. charlesly uimately when y th larger question, why americans are havingrouble with thi package and why they don't like iis we are no

ing through an ordinary time. this is a tim when we were continuing to move from a instrialized society to a globalizedorld to a globalized marketplace. that entails the same types of social ecomic and litical turmoil that we saw as we went thugh the industrial era. what amerins are tiredf is chaotic shocks to the system. and when we talk about reverting back to chacter in a time of cris, the americanepublic was foundedot just on limit vernment but what undergirded that wasself-government, a sense of continuity beeen the generations,, birk's eternal contract ofsociety, and what they cannot stands government making achaotic ti worse. so they want us to do targeted reforms, make things better,but t to do anything that's going to be tooarge or help to reduce theirontrol over thei owlives. and that really what's undergirding the debate of this. >> rose: but i think t president s arguing tonight that you areoing to still ha corol over your health care. if you likeyour own hlth care you can continue withour own health care. and condly he seemed to be saying that the reason tre's

opposition to thisis because there's cousion abo this. not that there's some dramatic difference on princie. that's his argument. >> his argumt is... i would argue erran because when he lks about the fact that you'll keep whaver you have because the bill doesn't force you into a public syste the reality is they're going to encourage it because it's going to be cheaper and easier for businesse it's going to exacerbate businesses fcing you into a public syste when you lk at many of e cost savis...even mr. boks talked abo it. the costavings that this bill will be revenue neual and he won't sign it, we had the only in bill thesame thing and it had a bunch of earmarks in it d he signed it. americans want the turbulence they're experiencing to be calmed by thr subservient members of congress that a supposed to.... >> rose: and was that the te of the president tonight o not? was that the tone of the presidt tonight, calm,

reasoned, or not? >> there were diffent... there were different... there were different tones. we heardhat the president was passiona to want andyet pele who passionately oppose this are a new angry mob. so one man's ason, paionate persons another man's angry mob. (lghter) >>ose: who was theerson who shoute out "liar"? >> that s representative joe wilson he's publicly ologized. we cannot do th. he knows that a he's sorry. >> rose: oka go ahead, joe. >> charlie, there's someing else here thas difficult any ti you want health ce reform. two things i'd note. one, our health care system does have a safe net. it a ver expensi one. it's the ergency room. it's where pr people go. but nobody really diesor lack of doctor in most cases. number two, everybo wants to controhealth care costs but if their wife getssiblg orids

t sick or they get sick or their mother o father gets sick, the sky i theimit. and thatce a human reality th affects this whole debate. and ihink it's very important for people to recognize th. >> charlie, let me put anaccent on a pnt that david made a little bit earlier. >> rose: brooks (laug) >> wt was that? >> which poin (laughter) >> what's been draing down this effort so far, is not the republican rump in congrs, it's no presidt special interests most of whom hav been playing ballith the obama admistration on this. it the c.o.nd doug al n dorfaying rresentations that have bn made abt the virtues of this bill are t true so, again, we have barack obama's selling this plan and wondrously tanted way ashe greatestree lunch of all time where everyone's going toget more coverage a better verage without really paying

anything to getit o with anythi significant cost added to government. is that true? when he says he's not gog to sign something tt adds a dime to the deficit, is that going to betrue? when h says these plans are going to cost, is that actually going be true? those questions matter. the substance matters. >> rose: s are we now waiting... >> what' dealt the most vastating blow to this thing over the last t months. >> well, youknow, this gets to the core iss. to me... i mean, brb said we want tkeep what we he. 8 20% of... the people who have insurce can keep exactl what they ha. the problem th that is the syst is fdamentally screwed up. the incentivesare fundamentally screwed up. they reward serce, that i don't rewa care. andso if you wand... if you indict fundamentally the system and then preserve it for most people, you've got problems. ani understand politally why he's doingt. because you don't are people who are happ with what the

have. but it does mean substantively you run into pblems. it does mean substantively thers a limit to how muc cost control you can dond he's perpetually stucon the horns of that dlaepl ma and i don't know, frankly, how he gets out ofhat. >> rose: lete go around in our remaining three orour minutes. this is the most important moment of the ama presidency? >>t is for obama and it is for the demrats. whatever they pass, we may fin out later how i works. if theemocrats don't pas the bill, if they fai, i will guantee they will lose30 or seats in the house and five or six? the senat if they pass a bill andhe econy is ay-- that's a big if-- those losses will be much less. they canno afford failure. >> i tnk it was the actual proposal of the bill that s unpopular, not the killing of it. that wouldust show they were not as competent. >> ros so the dye cast? >> well, that i' got an uphill fight in010, i believe. >> rose:ecause? >> becausehe unemployment ra

is sti going to be high. >> rose:over 10,eah. >> you hava lot of democrats elected in republican areas, they are going to fe a tough fight. harry reidthe senate majority leader, has 38% approval i his home state. that not a good sign. so it's going to be a challenge. nonetheless this is thbiggest domestic rorm in a generation to so to at extents this the centerf the obamaemost i can policy. >> ros in what y has the presidensurprised you? >> wl, frankly, to me i always thought was a moderate. a moderate democrat. i thout he drifted to left in the last couple mons, maybe pushed bycircumstances. to be honest i thoug in his speech tay i thought he drted back towards the center. he was more t guy iort of admired and approved of dung the campaign. and if he backs up some of the moderate rhetoric wit real subsnce over the next few weeks, i gure he will have done a lot to repair some of the damage that's happened in e past couple mons. >>ose: do you agree withthat, congressman? >> i think he's drafted to the center othe democrac party. rember, he waslected by the

left wing because hillary clintowasn't liberal enough. so i think he's trying to fd his way. in the end, it going to be passed by congress or not but it going to have to be practical. thamerican people are very practical an they'reeither going to like it or not regardss of what i sayr anyone else says they'll measure their own hlth care needs they'll look at the bill and theyl say yes or no and we will hear about it. rose:it'sefining moment for this presidentnd where is he? >> i think it is the bgest mont of his presidencin terms of any domeic issue. think he's taking this issue further th anyone has since the mid-1960s. i think he ought toake as much as hcan get, ver as many people ahe can get. i do think it's imperate for the democrats to pas a bill. ani think he should sell it more as a matter of social justice, fairns. it's like the minimum wage. it's a minimum.... >> rose: that came intothe

debateonight i thought strongerhan he has before, don't you think? >> it did a i wasappy toee that i thinkhat will sell a i think he ought to take a much as he can get. ought to move the ball as far down t field as we can. if you can't get a whole loaf, take a half, take a third. but don't lose. whatever else ybody says, there is morettention tohis, more momtum on is than we ve seen in 50 ars! >> rose: therefor, rich lowrie, do you think we ll have heah care reform within se broad range of wt the president would likeo see? >> it' hard to s, charlie. i mean, there ar a cole scenarios where you uld see it going down. one, it is a complex anal. so when you start pulling par t of it, you ve the risks of the whole thing falling apart or theoalition falling apart. but think liberals in the house uld be extremely foolish to ve this legistion down if they don't g the publi option because the public option is a

relative minor part of it. you're stillalking about effectively making a iurance company's public utilities, a hu new entitlement subsidy to people that' going to ct $900 billio that is a loto have on your plate. >> rose: bausee're live, rich, ve to get out at that point. ank you so much, thank you, joe, thankyou congressman, thank you albt. we'll see yo tomorrow night. thank you for being with us. caioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at bh access.wgborg