>> rose: welcome tthe broadcast. tonight a conversati about the white use media strate as the president will be appearing on five sunday shows this weekend. >> i'll give you a strategy in one ntence, charlie, all obama, all the time. the media mayo stories abouthe president being overexposed but nobody is turning down those invitation. it's really string. he dsn't have to go on fiveunday shows. cost do meet the press or ce the nation, and make news with whatever hhas to say. but in ery opportunity whether it's the fr prime timeews conferences the joint address to congress, e address to a joint session of congress in pri time, and now doing theoad blocking thing o sunday rning, this white house and this presint seems to delight in cranking up the volume. someould say to ear splitting levels. >> one of the things that

wee seen in the polls is that people likbarack obam and so the more he gets out there, smiling, appeang comfortabland at ease while defendi his policies, you knowwe'll see wheth or not hcan improvehe support for his policies whichaven't fared as well as his persona. but i think when you've g this fctured environment, it'sifficult to break through, it's diffilt to make an impression. you've got to run many more tv ads ia camign than you used to to break through. they've got a y who is exceptionallgifted and they're using him as much as possib as the most criticaloment of his presidency because he kns if he doesn't get heah care in particur, that would be a very,ery serioublow to him. >> and i thi like the great hollywood srs, obama has this mystique. he withholds a lile something of hself at all times. so tt when youee him, even though you seem him - see him a lot. you dot feel likeou're getting the enti picture with him and that keeps you wanting to come back re wi h. >> obama wou give one speech about, you know, health care at lunchtime a

a stimulus, you know, at 3: in the afternoonment d urban renewal at 6:00 and israel at 8:. and what do you do. but here's what i think dr. ing. agn this would he been heresy in the reagan era. you had one message and tha was itnd you made se everody got it and tt's not what is ppening any mo. >> rose: we ntinue going from the presidency to food. frank bri, the fmer restaurant cric for the ew york times" has written about hi expernces in a new book cled "born round" so they come to you. you have had these varied experiencet the "new york mes". en to columbia jrnalism school as well. and they say we wa you to be theood crit and at did you say? >>ell, i did whatever the equivant of a double take on the telephone. i was sort of surprised. i an i knew that the times like the w a wrote and trusteme with awide vaety of things but i didn't expect them to come to me with that offer. was surprising because i hadn't written a lot about food. but whatot all of them knew that i knew is th it was also a reall ironic ofr because of my lo historwith food. i'm one who really struggled a lotto forge healthy

retionship. >> so that made more likely youould accept it orot accept it. >> initially i wast sure. ultimately it waone of the thingshat lead meto acpt it. >> rose: the president i the media and the restaurant critic in the restaurants. next. >>unding for charlie rose has been proded by the llowing: captioning sponsored by rose communicaons from our studios in new york city, this is arlie rose.

with aook at how the prident uses media to get his message across. in his first eight months in offi president obama has grand 117 interviews, 66 on television. is week he will beaking his case for health-care reform on all th major networks on cnn, and on anish languageni vision. will notppear on fox. mond night he will be the sole guest on davi leerman's late show. e wall to wall coverage has resurrected lock stanng questions about the ri of overexposure. also today fir lady michelle obama made her first foray intohe health care date speaking the white house. she cald health ca a woman's issue. >> think it's ear that health insuran reform and what it meansorur families is very much a women's sue. it is vy much a wen's sue. and we want to achie true equality for women, if that is o goal f we want

to ensure at women have opportunits that they deserve, if that is our goal we want won to be able to care forheir families and pursue things that they coul ner imagine, then we have to reform t system. we haveoeformthe system, the status q is unacptable. it is holding women and milies back. and we know it. >> rose: joining me now jennifer senior of "new york" magazine, sherites about presidt obama's media strategyn the august issue of tt magazine. from washington howard kur media critic for "the washington post" a host of cnn' reliable sources. jo harwood of cc and "the new yortimes", he's interview thed president twice since he tk office, most recently la week. fromoston len schrod, profsor of journalism and northeastern unersity, i am pleased to ve all of them he. let me begin with howard kurtz. telle what youhink the media strategy is, howard. and does it is a a lot about

the media or does it is a more abo this president? >> i'll give you a strategy in one sentence, all obama, all the time and look, e media m do stories about the president being overexposebut nobody is turning down ose invitions. it's really strikg. he doe't have to go on five sunday shows. cojust do meet the press or face the natn. and ma news withhatever heas to say. but inevery opportuni whether it's the four prime time news cferences, the joint aress to congress, the address to a joint session of congress in prime time, d now doing the road blocking thing on sunday morning, this wte house and this preside seems t delight in cranking up the volume. some would say to ear splitting lels. >> okay, but is it because he is so good at or is it because he lives in a new media world that other present has lived. >>ell, he is a very good communator and he is the salesmannd chief particularly right now for the strugglg health care policy. but if you see him on all the sunday sws and on leno d on letterman and doing basketball on espn and

everything this side of ho shopping nwork. at some poin does that dilute the impt. >> whado you think, john? >> i am not sur that we've gottone th point yet. look, onof the things tha we've seen in the lls is that people like barack obama. anso the more he gets out there sling, appearing comfortable d at ease while defending his policies, you know, we'llee whether or not he can improve the support fohis policies which havet fared as we as his perso. but i thinkhen you've got this fractured envonment, it'sifficult to break thugh. it's difficult to maken impression. you've goto run many me tv ads in campaign than you used too break thugh. theye got a guy who is exceptionally gifted a they're ing him as muc as possible a moritical ea of his presidency becaushe knows if he doesn't get health carin particular, that would ba very, re serious blow him. >> rose: c you look at at he's done and make the case tt he's made a difference, that it's been a ga changer on any particular issue or having to do with the wte house

credibility? >> well, i do thinkis spee to congress was successful last ek in nveying the impression to a broad audience nationally that he was being reasonable. he cast himself as somebody who was rejeing radical ideas of the right. radical idea of the left d casting himself in the center, reaching outo republans. john mccain, judd greg, chk grassley, that sort of thing, to ke the arage rson out there at home saying wow t looks like he's being pretty reasonable. on the oth hand he had some rea partin rhetoric sort of ried within the speech that wasn't going to waste time th people trying to kill his bill. d i think that was effecte in rallying his base whi is the most impoant thing he's got to doight now to get this thing through. >> rose: when yolack at what he' doing, aln, where ishe risk? >> well, ihink the risk is particularlyhis weekend, all of these unscripted performances, you ow. the interviewituation is somethg that he handles

pretty well. but you can rember that when he wentn the jay leno ow back in march he made at little crack about the special ympics that got him into a lot of trouble. so although i think the sunday morning washington shows are going to be fairly predictable in the q & a i think this letterman thing on the other hand could be kind of teresting just to see hohe meuvers through what is a much more risky situation. >> i couldt agree more. much more,s it i easy to predict the kind of questions on the sunday shows it is much less easy to look at what david might do. may i slitly dagree. >> absolutely. >> only in the sense that don'think that any one news story gets tractionow, rticularly w whether it is good or bad for ve, very ng. i mean i tnk that we are now in ts kind of high locity news cycle were people are constany hitting e refresh button. the ideahat somebody may say someing, t special ympics story had ten minutes of legs in part because he appall ged -- ologized quickly. he made a quick apology. but also because i don't think that the news cycle

allows fort. the other thini would say abouthis, about debating whether or not he is overposed and i think is important to remember, is that you know a lot of the journalists whwere initiallcomplaining that was ovexpose -- expose product journalists who ha a beat, were showing ua lot on televion. were bloging, had -- wer tweeting, were updatin their status on their fabook pages every, you know, hourr two. i mean i tnk in th particular media climate, peopler the side of exposing themselve too ch. and not too lite. i mean the whole point here is that it takes a lot more in suca fractur,diffuse nd of sce. or environment to get your message out. >> charlie i d't --. >> rose: go ahd horx ward. >> i don't think the sund show inecessarily going to be that predictable. when t president is taing about george stephanopoulos and david gregory and john king and bob schieffer, they ma want to talk about things he's not dying to talabout. for example jim carter's pungent suestion about some of the president's crits beingssociated by

race. obama esn't want to have that discussion. and here's my point about whether or not he's blunting his ow impact by bng out the too much. present i spoke to steve oft on "60 minutes" last weekend. and it didn' make anywhere near as much of an iact as his two earlier interviews with steve kroft on "60 minutes" since the ection, since he bame president. usuallwhen a president of the united tats goes on "60 minus" that is a major event. it has become more mmonplace and i think sometimes can be a little harder to breathrough if its just okay, ther he goes aga. >> rose: you ls likely to say i have got see this because it is rare. now you think yohave seen it because he s been at other places leme just make one point about that, the predictable of it. i would suggest that the white house will assume there will be all kinds of questions but they wil know 90% of theuestions that are asked, as wl as thought about th, wouldn't you think so, john >> charlie, i think you're absotely right. i age with jennir. i thin the risks of this are pretty low. don't thk there are too many people in thehite house sweati bullets becausthey think barack

obama can't hale himself in front oa camera. yes, the speal olympi thing, h was trying t be funny. it actuallyas kind of funny but it was the kind of thing that he d to take back becse you have people aggrieved in cerin situations. but i just don't think tt barack obama runs toouch risk of hurting himself the more he gets t there given ho if you look at the polls, eve people w don't approve of his policies fend find him pernally charistic, appealing, ni guy. l of that stuff i think is a plus for a preside. >> rose: shoulhe have omitted fox? i would say it is a mistake. now i know that people on the ft anddemocrats say, you know, fox news, particularly the les of glen beck and sean hnity beatp on the president al the ti. but fox news also has a pretty substantial audience cable terms. and for the president to just bw off fox, yo kn, maybe good polits within the demoatic party but that'sne audience that is the going to be getting the message on sunda morning d chris walce is

not one t conservative flame throwers on that network. >> rose: and ihought so -- hillary, for example, d a very good job? an intervi with bill o'reilly during the campai. and i think otrs have made note othe presidens aparance with bill. wh do you think,allen. >> it ist as though obama won't be on the fox network with whaver he says in these terviews. ey will use the clips just the same as evebody else. so you know, he will appear on fox just not in e of their own --. >> re: but that is the point. hes itting fox. 's to the going to fox. should very done that? becausfox has en, you know, has the sort of posture that it does? >> well, i think -- >> go ahead. >> i think youalways get a little credit for going someplace difficult and so in that sense, he may b depring himself of an opportunity toould be front hi crits. but i d't know. i am not sure what the gain would be f him. >> re: what is the gain by t going? >> the gain by not going, well, don'tknow.

maybe as john suggeed, it pleases hi democrac ba. >> charlie, i don't think he's ting to please his base. i will taka guess as to why they are not doing it. the guess would be that they are sitting there saying these people hit us an awful lot. why should we ve this to them. d it's sort of a reflection, a little bit, the polarization of the environment at we are in. he probably thinks that uld have about as much effect as winning ov fox and e sortf more ardent membs of the fox audience d sitting down with mitch mcconnell to do health care right now t will not get there youfar. >> rose: john,ou have interviewed him. does he say much in intervws or is he just simply good at explaining his position? i don't see him making tha much news. does he? >> wl, it depends. i und him a very good interview subject inhe first place even thoh he's the president ofhe united states, he is somebody who

will actually listen and gauge with a question. somebody w will not filibuster a let you have a chance toask a numberof questions. he made news whei talked to him in june about iran when he talked about the -- he minimized theifferences teen president ahmadinejad and the opposition candidate at that time and people took note of that. that's right. i thoughte made news the other day when we talked about afghanistan and he said afghanistan is no vietna you don't step into the same river twice. but said he was thinking lo and hard about ovreach and the ssibility or the dger of going to war whout adequa support at ho. so i think he was willingo be a little reflective there. and i al thought he made a little bit of news in saying he was songly inclined against additionalconomic stimulus. so i think he is -- i think heoes okay. presidents generally speaking try not to make news in eir interviews. i remember in the past having --. >> re: it is not that he

doesn't do okay. it's just that is telling us a lot thawe don't know? >> i think that barack obama tends to speak in paragraphs and not sod bites and in a way i kind of admire that in a prident. but usuallwhen any politician is going too these tv intviews he gets with his advisors and they figure wt do they wanthe headline to be, what do they want the phrases to be on the front pa of the papers. and o bomb -- obama doesn't do tha he kind of disdains that. i have heard h half a dozen timetalk about the 24 hour news cyc and the chatter and the punditry. and he sms to want to communicate at a somewha higher lev which may work for him but also tends to work agast paging ao the -- a lot of news. >> that is an old mea strate. i mean i thinkhat sound bites were product of scarcity. if y had only three networks and a half dozenr a dozen major pars driving ws, you could consolidate, you cod make sure thatne message happen. if you have like a sound te preferably that rhymed or was a literatei. and you said it in a way that was peectly clear to everybody and th carried it.

you don't need to that anmore. you've got blogs galore that n pick up bits and pieces or chunks of your text. you can find everythg he ev says on the huffington post in full. and also, i mean es he a guy who understands the per of youtube. gives a long time. >> the 37 mite speech on race was one of the most watched things. >> i guess24 hours of its hang done it. it was also one of the most watche speeches of h campaign. so i think that when you don't have sound bites worry about and you speak fair well, at great length, so you know he is a good explainer which ishe other ing. >> that is wt the health care speech was abou >> so the fact his not mang news but he is still elucidating and eliminateing difficult conceptsor people. >> on thother hand, jennifer, when oma had his fourth prime tim ns coerence and the broadcast networks a not that happy with h because it is costing them ten of miions of dollars for these preetion, he, the reporters wereooking at ch other as that thing was winding down. he gave all the same answers on health care he had given

for weeks. they were sang what is the lead. then the final question,he one about the henry louis gates. wh became the big news cause it was -- >> that is my point again about king news. >> except the ly thing i woulsay about that, i pain are you right. the only thi i would say about that is that was reporters. we marine in this stu so of course know wh he is given the same answer 19 million time but for people w want to really understand alth care, i think thathere is some argument to be said for if you have somebo who can plain it. i mean i'm not -- i sympathize but -- >> the ratings went do. >> vy little adheres in this particular news climate. >> there is another possibility do guys. maybthe questions athe press conferces were lousy. >> exaly. >> rose: exactly. so allen, is his strateg working? mean is it so -- he may become orexposed at me poinbut so far itdoesn't ok like that. >> no, it doesn'took like that. and i think onof the interesting ings about him and i'm always intested in lookg at th connections between the presidenc and the way hollywood works.

and i think like e great hollywd stars, obama h this mystique. heithholds aittle sothing of himself at all times so that when you see him, even ough you se m a lot,ou don't feel like you're getting the entire pture with himnd that keeps youanting to come back an hear more fro him. john, who drives this strategyn the white house. ist the president mself? isit pressonference? is it rahm emanuel? who? well, i think rahm emanuel ives an awful lot in that white use. obvisly david axrod, anita dunn who is the counications director and gibses who h the final call on aot of those press questions about what interviews he's goingo do and how much press tim they're going to p on his schedule. i ink they're making those decisions anthey've been fairly coheeseive in dng that all of them, i think, realize that they've got somedy with a lot of lent and they've got the mome they need that talt right now. and i ll say that you know

somef the frame of analysis has been that you know the esident's health care iniative is in trouble and he's got to save it i think a lot of that has be fundamentally wrong. th psident, they'reot mang it up when they say they're further along on this than anybody has been trying it in the pas you want to ok atn successful leslative look at bill clinton on health care in '93 and '94 d george w. bush osocial security a few ars ago, they areikely to get someing, ing what the president wants or the princiess he wants. obviously a lot details are yet to be completed. but they're n doing badly at all right now. >> so you are -- you believe that the president's health care strategy in terms of what he ha constructed and how he has communated it, he getsigh marks? >> yes, i mean the proof's going to be in the results at the end butf you look at where we arin the process right no it looks like he's going to ke it to the goal le. , i interviewed olyia

snowe this week and olympia snowe had very positive things to say about back obama wchuggest thathe might be there with democrats either on a cloturvote or some other itical vote they need to try to get is through. >> so he wil not lose an democrats? >> i think he may lose democrats on the vote on passage for the ll am but he has a better chance of holding democrats on a libuster vote. that's where snow i so critical. if you decide that reconciliation is too mplicated and difficul and u want to survive a filibuster you need to hold all your 59 democrats and then addne more. and i thk there are some signalfrom olympiasnowe. it's not determined yet that she might be wling to cast that 60th vote to get past theilibuster and then if you dithat, se of the demoats, nelson and some otr more moderate and conservati democrats might actuallyote against the bill on final passage butt wouldn't matteonce you got over that filibuster threshold. >> come back to the questi of what the present had been tking about. the republicans, how do they view what he is doi

because it is id by se republicans it's hard, because iso ubiquitous, on one issue after another it's hard to rpond because he's already moved on to someing else. health care is different because it cuts deep and i is his most profod issue and a lot of his presidey accordinto man observers hangs on doing it and succeeding at ast at having a bill. but he makes it difficult for the republicans becse he i a fleeting target. >> but even charlie if republicans want to respond they don have a lot of telegenic partyleaders. you don't see mitch mcconnell or john boehner on tv that much a not the world's mostffective communicators. lling that vacuumseems to be people li rush limbaugh and glen beck and sn hanny. now maybe it's unfair for those us of in theedia to put those talk show hosts out because obvioly their job is to be provocative, some wou say flammatory. but they seem to be emerging re as spokesman for the

nservative movement in this congress anwithhis prident than i've ever seen in the years that i have been followin washton. >> rose: and w do you think th is? >> think they are good copy. they say thingthat are controversial so journalis like that. and i ink they, cause the republicansdon't run anything here in washington, th don't control eithe chamber anthey don't have presidential fro runner so early in the game this time around,hat there is this void that the people ke rush and gnn beck are more than happy to fill. >> going to ur point about havingultiple messages having line fo or five a day, i mean that is the strategy that was a big pce of the story that irote. quoting a lot of --. rose: probably where i got the idea. >> didn'want to say anything but yes, there wa a republican who was immensely frtrated and said he couldn'tock in on a target and aim and what i thought, you kno obama would give one speech about, you know, health care atunchtime and the stimulus at:00 in the afternoon an urn renewal

at 6:00 and israel at8:00. and what do yo do. t here is what i think is teresting. again,his would have been heresy in the reagan era, you know, you had one messe and that was it. and you made sure everybody goit and that's not what happening any more. ain there are so many differenplatforms to carry your msage now. you can haveine aday t doesn't matter >> rose: speaking of tt, allen, what happed to the stauranted idea that this campai following the hord dean campaig mastermied new media. they wervery smart about it. they used it very wl. they raisedoney. theysed all kinds of mean to get out their message, both as a candidate an now as president. how, where ishat all going? >> well, it's definitely a big piece of what's gng on here. all you need to do is gon to whi house.gov an will you e links to facebook, twitte my space, even itunes, so they are very smart about this. i think jennifer wrote abou th in her pce very inresting lee teng-hui, i

thght this use of flicker, the photo stream. these white house photos that are released on you know, sort of an endsless basis thats something th hasn't been tried so far a has en very eective, i think, inetting out their meage even just visually. and actually, to connect to your fascination with maging the presidential ime and managing the celebrity image, one of the things that i thought was interesting about the whe house flicker stre isthe fact that they hav so many beautiful polished shots that they've taken themselves and that they've alady loaded on-line that they're sting -- shutting, they fously didn'tllow whithouse or press phographers, you know, mastream papers and take pictures in t oval office in the first day of office. because they had theirwn shots to oer. anthey had their own shots on-line. and i was rinded very much of angelina and brad st of leasing their own photos of their babys so th they could control thisne iconic image. you know, it's a way of preemptively, yoknow, well, our image is going to be betterhan theirs, suddenly

it drives do the value of any other image out there. >> absolutely it the is also -- >> mgm in e 1930s,he studio photogrhers doing erything they can to make the star loo great. >> that's it. rose: there is also this. >> i'm sure gladennifer took that queson because i'm d media. i uldn't find the flicker stream if you made me. i am so old media but i'm so flattered that u think i'm not. >> ros there is this also, i me he is as ihink rahm emanuel once pointed out, t just a political phenomenon, hes a cultura enomenon. and hes probably the biggest ar in eorld. d therefo, he burns brightly and therefore why not take advantage of it whe -- while theocus is on you. howard- >> a on that, igree with that, chare. th a world famous cultal figure, obviously ground-breaker in terms the history ofhe united states. but there anothertar in the white house and he you eluded to her rlier, chelle obama. she starts dog interviews

and giving speeches, she did one toy about health care. the journalistic appeti to get the intview with michelle is even more intense right now because she has doneo few of them. oba, everybody wants the president but he has ma the rods. he is virtually liv in the main treatment mia. michelle is a cultural figure in her own rig, also a vy smartirst lady ani think that is a weapo that ybe ey've been lding back a little bit that the white house is now gointo deploy this fall campgn especially to win health care. >> rose: john, you have met a lot of politicia. anody better than he is in an interview? >> well, bill clinton is pretty good interviews too. and --. >> rose: betr, is bill clinton better >> no, no -- look, part of this is self-referential, right. i have terviewed barack obama more than i interviewed bill clintonr george w. bu. although i knew george w bush over a mber of years when i was the governor o texas. he could be very charmingin prive, tded to be most charming in sortf off the

record moments. but no, look, barack obama, he is extremy bright. he very fluid and -- verbally which is somethin of course, that the media like and he's got star power soll of those thing make him a terrific intview. you know, nald reagan didn't give whole lot of one-on-o interviews when he was president. he had some magic too. rose: okay, does (kbam -- barack obama enjoy this, is he outhere because not only does it serve his political goals but, ifact, he likes it in t same way thatome might have suested president kenne liked the press conferce? anybody? >> that's an interesti question, charlie i'm not sure we kw that. d i'm not sure we can know that jt yet. but he certainly doesn't recoil from it. and back t this thing about his inrviews. you knowanother thing that stkes me is he is really good in serious interviews, yoknow straight news interviewsike the ones he did with john. but he is also really go in these lighte interviews. he's done a mber of them with david letterman.

he did one in septembe of lastear during the campaign that was fascinatin because itmixed content pretty rious content isss like iraq and afghanistan and 9/11 with very pernal regution -- recollections ofrowing up and things abo his kids. so he, you kno, he's able to make that transion quiteaturally. >> i also ink he's -- i think the law professor i him comes out when he does this. i really think that it does play to his -- to these particular slow med that he does. >> i think the speeches call on the same ski. it the president as teacher in chie >> and as reasoner, like supreme courtpinions that are very carefully rnd, i think in some wa >> lk how he got elected. >> it was by giving spehes an giving --. >> rose: exactly right not president has ever -no candidate hasever been more defined thane has. i mean and in use of language a all of that. but what you pray, d't you, harwood, that don fly shows up. >> that s a great moment, are u kidding me. >>ood television. >> sometimes you jusget

lucky and that with one of those moments. >> rose: there you go. thank you all pleasure. >> thank you. we'll be rightack. stay with us. >> frank bruni is he in his career as a jrnalist he has written about everything fm politics to ligion to the miss america geant. but up until 2004, he had never written about food. nevertless, in april of that year he was named restaurant critic for he new york times the appointment was made more complicated by his life long struggle with food and weht. love and strgle. he writes abo all of these experiences in his new boo born round. i am pleased to have fran bruni at this tle to talk about this book welcom >> thanks for having me. >> rose: you were the rome coespondent. would u cover the bus campaign and presidey and then youent to rome. >> that'right, for two years. >> rose: are you werthere. and that w goo duty, was itot. >> it was no a bad job to ve, i love italy. >> rose: like going home.

>> no, my grandrents on my father's side were from italy so i gre up in that sprawling erican family that made italy el like home. rose: and went to school at the univeity of north carolina where you were a moreheadcholar which down there you sort of bow down to moreheadcholars. >> it was a nice honor. >> rose: so ey come to you. uh-huh. >> rose:ou have had these varied experience athe "new york time. been to columbia journalism schools well so you had an interestincareer veloping. and th say we wa you to be the food critic. and what did you s? >> well, i did whatever the equivalent of double take is o the telephone. i was sort of surpsed. i mean i knew that the times liked thway i wrote and trusteme with a wide variety of things but i didn't expect themo come to me withhat offer. it was surprisg because i hadn written a lot about food. but what not all of them knew thai knew is thait was also a really ironic offer because of my lg histy with food. i'm someone who really ruggled a lot to forge a healthy relationship >> rose:o that made it more likely would you cept it or not accept it. >> initially i wasn't sure. ulmately it was one of the things that lead me to

accept it because felt like it was t last act, the last chapter inhis complicated narrative of ne with eating and food. rose: you have written in here that your li had been defined by that in part. >> i'mne of these people who was always tnking about eating. i was always eating too little or eating t much. you know there are pple, and maybe are you e of them, charlie whoay at 5:00 p.m. i was so busy today i forgot eat. >> i'm one othose. >> when somee says that to me, you e a space aen to me. i don't know what you are talking abou if it is 5:00 p.m. and i haven't ean, i'm well aware if andi'm counting the minuteto the meal. >>ose: before the meal comes to make up. >> exact. >> rose: and y might have two rves wants that's right. >> rose: becauseou are aware you dn't. >> if i have been depriving myself i will reward myself on the tail end. >> rose: let me talk abo restaurants r a second. did you love the beat. oh, yeah. i mean this is onof the privileg jobs. i meant a job. you ha to go to the restrants. itecomes a duty over time but it is an enormous privilege to be able to go night afr night to some of the best restaurts in the ci and in the world and to able to share your thghts about them with

people. 's great. >> ros did you do anythg to get -- to prepare? you know, as soon ai started thinkingbout taing the job, began reading, you know, my night table readin became heaer toward food andood memoirs and everywhere i went to eat i ben looking at menus in a new way and continlly educating myself. i knew a l about fo alrey. you know, li anyone who is an eager eater and anyone whhas traveled widel as i had, i had a eat deal of experience with food. but i dn't necessarily kind of adopted the formal vocabulary that gs with restrant. >> re: would you call yourself a new york term, i'not sure worldwide, foodie. i guess i would have called myself a odie but not full-fledged foodie to get ve --. >> rose: in the same way hnny apple was a foodie. >>eah. someone with great app -- appeti, a greaturiosity. >> rose: aconnoisseur and w the great restaurants whence i w i rome for two yeari traveled a lot in up. >>. one of the first items on my agendahen i wentanywhere newas to figure out wher i was going to eat. i never mastered that to the extent johnnie apple

company. i don'think anyone could but a lower junior level, maybe. >> rose: i mean if i w in any city iould want johnny to tell me which suld eat. >>ou are a wiseman. >>ose: and he would write very interestingeviews in talking about if if he was doing a ofile ofeither theroprietor or in fact the food. well, johnny was really good and iearned a lot from tha about -- whene wrote about a restaurant when he wrote out eating not making it just abt what w within the boundaries of that place. >> rose: he ma it an experienceal thing. >> henderstands a staurant exists in a city, in a moment t ishe story of itsroprietors that there a bigg story than thealibut. he is a eat exampleo all of us. >> rose: so you went into this deciding you would d it a ltle different or what. >> yeah, ient into it feing very strongly that in this day and i belie espeally with the internet the p.m. ofeople reading that restaurt review to make adistinction -- distinct decision out whetheto go to the restaurant that a small oup of youreaders, very

view readers using the review as a map for the restaurant more people wanted a vicarious experience, more are going to the review for the litery pleasure of reading it. >> rose: arehey really? i think so. >> rose: that surpriseme you s tt. because we hr that reaurantritics like theatre critics arso poweul, if u don't like a restaurant, the restaurant owner is going into a deep depression. >> that is financial-. >> rose:inancially and emotionally. >>hat true for that number of t people reading the review that are usinit as a service piement but in the inteet age when we've got read approximates in california. 've got readers over in, yoknow, in serbia, we got readers everywhere. in that day andge you have to write somhing that has appeal to people who are never goingto set foot in that restaurt, at lea i think you do. >> rose: what is hard abt it? one thing that's car in this book is that you d not want them to know that "the new york times" reaurant crit sick there. >> you don't wt them to know are youhere which is pretty mh impossible to

ntrol. but what y can control is them knowing whetherou are coming so a lotf my energy was always spent on making sure there was no tell in the way i made a resertion, that it might be for me and that might be coming through the door. >> a you had a special card at the that the times cooked up, the american express card. >> at any gen ment iad about five dferent fake edit cards and i changed themp every year. and er time i was smart enough to ma them gender neutral names so i cld pass them der the table to a woman well as man. but theris a whole almos kindfovert operaon angle being a restaurant -- >> how often do yo think were you successful. mostf the time or 50% of thtime or -- >> it's probly something like 50/50. it dends entirely on the calibrof the restaurant. if iis a serious restaurant that believes its fortunes will be affected -- affected by a review in its firscouple ponts when it is on its most heighted vigilance for critics, it is ally hard to get in the door more than a cple times without bein spotted. you went to great lengths not to b photographed. >> absolutely. i leard for five and a

half yea even at family gatherings i would instinctively step outside the frame the photo it was like it became like a reflex, you know. >> and how wld you do it? so you me a servation. and you go and what are you lookg for? how you go thugh what is necessary for you to feed the process of writing a review. well, i didt have a checklist ofhings i was looking forive. really kind of arrived with an open mindnd hopefly empty stomach. sometimes not as hefty - empty as it should have been. and a rifed to ve a good me on that restaurant' terms it. and thenrom there somemes disappointment was eep in and a good time wouldn't b h. but i always waed more than not toave a good time and to let that restaurant please me. becae that's the goal, you know. i was loong at evything from serce to whathe fo on the plateas. but i wasn'tind of signing percentage of saying you know, -- amnt belos to service,- to -- >> i got you. >> but you wou sleep away sometimes into the batoom and ll home and leave it on your voice-mail o

whatever. >> exactly. >> mechanism you had. >> yeah you would write notes. >> i seldom wrote notes because took too ng and yocouldn't do it at t tabl so my method whi you caught on toas i would take my cell phone and go into the bathrm if it had ception and call myself notes toe trscribed the next y wnsd did you always go with somebody or would you alone. >> always went with a couple people. usually groups of fr. becae you want could conquer as much of the nu as y can. you sit down and say you are doing thsalmon, you are doing thribyewitnesses you were going to mple all it. >> yeah, you knowrerotate plates and tt is attention getting t you have to do it. >> exact. >> a se sign. >> and d you ever go like the third timend all of a sudden it wavery different, and very gooand you were surprised. >> yeah, and then would often go a foth time because you would nt to know le which of those fit three visits was the exception and which s the evolng rule. and what did you generally nd. >> you know, youound diffent things and you endeup having to event ou if sort of like a professor at the end of a school

semester. you take all the exams, add them together, divide by four or five or whatever and figure out what the no is. >> what are the nbers abouthe opening an closin of restaurantsn this city? >> well, you kno restaurants are stl opening atn incrediy brisk ra it is just different kind orestaurant that iopening. what we have seen is the ur-star restaurants. the reaurants with white table cloths and dollar entrees. theyre not opening at the sa rate. buon the other end. >> are ty doing the sam business because of e economic crisis. >> i think they are ally struggling. where they are ally struggling is st of them haa certain amount ivate party business. they had kind rooms and annexs where business entertaining was don and t only is the money down for that but it's no longer, it'sno longer fashionable for businesses to spendoney right now on that sort of thing. >> and what was therange of reaurants you would go to. mean you would go to -- >> ptty muchverything. i woun't go to a purely neighborhood pce or a place that jt existed for bargain eating becau we ve other people at t time was do that st of thing. >> the $25 thing. >> exactly. buin terms of cuisine, you

know, the ful range, in terms of the city's neighborhood i tried to get out of manhattan frequently go queens, brooklyn. thereological weren'a lot of boundri. >> and what was the reaction afteyou wrote the review? >> did you alws hear from them. >> no,ctually you sell dom heard from them. because if thewere happy, they didn't want to imply like that you had do them a far. you don't thank someone for a goodeview because you eaed your good review. they were unhappy, ty fired we don't know how long ts guy is going to sticaround, we don't know he will review some other restrant s we better stay mentum and you have the exception. >> rose:hat was the worst exception. >> the worst exction was a restaurateur who took out a full page and pai a premium to put it posite the view and the adsaid this man is hoible. he doesn't deserve his job, he didn'do juste to my restaurantnd doesn't kno what he isaying. >> rose: what ppened to the reaurant, did it survive. >> it's to the doing wel it's to the doing ll. >> rose: so how mu power did you hav er t cceed -- success of a restaurant?

>> you know, i d't know. tried not to pause and judge that because i dn't want to be thinking abt at. judging from the y restaurateurs fussed over when they knew i was there, juing from the way they tried to figure out if i was comi, i guess i had some por. >> tell the story about umbrlas, y would always get an umbrella if itas raing. >> it was raining ani would come without an umbrella there would b someonewaiting at the door who would give me an umbrla which he never took. >> rose: and ifouent to a fearby staurant and got so on your tie. >> i hit the bathroom soap dispensetoo hard and i ended wit a big splotch my shirt. as i was wking out the do the manager was handing me his card saying if you need thato be dry cleaned or need it to be replaced. i said it's a soap stain. i thinkt's going to co out, you know. >>ose: but they were very attentive it. >> if they knew i was there, they were, they were very, very aentive. but you know sometim they didn't know i was the and that w just as interesting. >>ose: and so at the end of this tour, howo you

decide it'sver. diyou decide are did "the new york times" decide. >> we decided together. i me i alwaysssumed it would be abo a four-ye at mt stint. it ended ubeing more than five. i stayed in ionger than i initially ought i would because it made sense to leave thjob as the bock came out >> rose: a how did tngs chan in terms of your attitu about food, if at al >> you know, i know even more now than i did befor because hi beeexposed to so much. i don't le food any more. or any ls. i am not re thaty attide about it changed but i think my appreciion fo the hard work that restaurants do has ineased tenfold. it's rlly, really rd work to run a restaurant and to run it we and to turn profit and to dohat night after night, week after we, month ter month. and it's not really the glamorous buness we think it is. the profit margins are small. and the hours arreally long. and i have more respect for that than i er did before. >> rose: whaare the ingredients of a successful staurant. >> pason. i think ssion.

>> rose: passion to crte. >> they have passiono create. they have passiofor hospitaly. you ha got to show up in peak form night afr night in the kitch, in the ding room. and if y are going to be consistent and you are goi to be greateverybody in that restauran has to hav a real passion for whais going on. >> rose: some restrants seem to attract certain crowds which give it a certain buzz >> uhuh. >> rose: andome people seem masterful at that ide >> well, you know, ere are -- there are armies of publicistsut there that help that happen. that interact with ccierges, that make sure the rht people know a resurant is open. an there is aeal herd ntality once you get the frt wave of people who set the trends everybody else follows. and then those arehe restaurants that we all can't t into annoyingly enough. >> rose: therend at one ti was sushi and other kinds of japase. i read that the tren today fried chicken. >>bsolutely. rose: which thrills me thrills me. >>ose: i love fried chicken and i have often had a problem not knowing whe to get good fri chicken. >> y do not have that problem any more.

>> rose: i kw. >> would like friedhicken recommendations. rose: yes, indeed. >> bluribbon lumbus circle. i just ate there last night and whatid i have, fed chken. i love fried chicken. rose: this is the best news. >> we could go through whollist am are you not going to find muci don't love. >> rose: let's talk out that. there is love affair wit food beganearly. >> when i was toddler. you know, i wasne of the reasons there are a couple reasons i call the bookorn round but one reon is because i was born in a met ric sense with this ormous app tied -- appete. and my paren whenever they talked about mchildhood the test thing they er talk about was how i could eat and eat and eat and eat and theyidn't know what to o do with that. >> rose: the grandmother or mother said you don't -- are you not born round and die square. well that is the other half of the tit. my grandmother bieved people couldn't fundamentally chan so whenever yousked her to do something that was against her perction of her o natureshe would say born round, youon't die square. and the book is about my tempt to die like at lst oblong, not round. >> rose: but did youevelop

this greatove affair for food. >>t was -- it was lgely, i ink, aninher tense from my mother and grandmother. they were both ielieveably proud and lovingooks. the book is in many respects a valente to thes two amazing, strong women in may life. and its a portraye of -- pore freight of food within a family >> when did the strgle of weight come. look athis picture. >> tt was me at 7. and that was about the time that classmates and fries began teasing thaty inials fstand for fat boy. in the se way i was born th a big appetite, i was one to self-consousness and th phrase fat boy really stuck with me for cades. >> rose: y were occasionally bulim. >> later on when i wast exercisi as much, in high school i had been a star athle, i was a really eat swimmer. when i gave that u, i was terrified that i was gng to gaia lot of weight and for a period of time my solution was bulimia >> rose:here is also ts abouyou as an ear and as foodie, when you got asgnment to go to re,

therwere people who we sayingf you take this job, you are going t leave -- you are going to gain 15 pounds. >> right, right itas the same prediction ey made when took the restaurant critic job. what people don't understand about italy, whai didn't understand because pie alian american family was an immignt family, isn't in italy theyon't eat as much as we do. th don't have the all you can eat buet. they don't he supsized meals. >> rose: and food has a certain quality well there terms of the way i cooked and the way it -- >>hey channel the food obsessions in the rection of quality the same way we inmerican channel them towards quanti. have a lot. i learned a lot about a healthy relationship with food from living in italy those year >> rose: that, i don't kno if that is trueut it seems that is a siular quality of americans is at we eat o much. >> our portions are ridiculous. >> rose: exactly. >> our portis are just ridiculous rose: they say cut the portions in half. >> all ts conversation right w about childhood obesity. and thatconversation needs to begin and end. there isots inhe middle t needs to bin and end with how much we tell kids

to e, how much we give em, how much inour own eating we show them an approprie amount of food. we all eat too much. >> b you also when you were in italy began exercise, did you not. >> began to exercise religiously before ily because took off about a ar before i went to italy i weighe 275 poundsnd was wearing size 42 pants. there are some pictus. there is o of me with esident bush on air force one and i'm the dead ringer fo jabba the hut in at photo. and excise was th most impoant thing in getting from there to her >> rose: and but that'a fundamental message to isn't it >>eah, yeah. >> rose: but peoe don't t it. >> no. u know, we're very sedentary inhis country. don't know why it is. but when sayxercise, i mean i thi we need to understand, if you wanto eat as much as i wa to eat, and mindou, i still eat a lot. >> rose: but you look you are in good sha. >> i just put a down payment, exercise is mydown payment so i can enjoy my eating. >> rose: you mht have a milk shaker -- >> butou run a me.

>> rose: and y know if i want to enjoy thiseal i have to rua meal. >> i wantwo things very badly. i want to enjoy and love my od, but ion't want to be undone by that i don't want to gback to 275 pounds. and the aner is not -- the answer is doesn't your portions a little t and to exercise a lot. >> rose: all right so this is not a self-lp book but -- >> no. >> rose: t dedication is to my brothersark and harry and my sister adele, you three are the luckiest hand i ever drew a my nieces cistina and anna bela because you missed ou theas time around. here are the chapters. i'm eating as fast i can. yo-yo-me. ness i had funith the titles. >> insurceo fat so, criticating. >> you know what those are >> tse are allejected ok titles. the were myunner-up book tles. >> born und try you hav

over all those titles. >> yes, so i shuttled them to chapt titles. >> so toy you go out to eat how often. >> well, i top doing the restrant critic job about a month ago. oddly enough i'm still going out to eat about fouor five nights a week. it's just in m it's what i loveo do. >> ros i do it too because it's the nature of new york it's easy. >> great way to socialize. >> rose: areat way to sociale and there are a lot of great restaurants in the city. >> we're so lucky. >> rose: what, is ithe best restaurant town ithe world? >>t is defitely the best restaurant town in this country. i feelualified to say that. and ifeel confint to say that. itay be the best restaurant city in the world. we havan ethnic diversy here. it is what new york is all about. so o bencs is whenit cos to restaurant. >> people don't recogne that as muchs they shod. and it's not jt manhattan. >> no. >> rose: go t to the flushing session of queens. you go to bronx and you define a section of th bronx where the italian food there is as good asome people have said tme as good as theyave eaten in italy. >>his city is amazing that way you just have to, you are never mo than 10 miles

from a fanstic meal. but and i've never understood this and people have writtenbout there. we don'tave that many great chinese restaurants. >>e are lacking in a couple of this. we're lacking igreat middle eastern rtaurants. we're lackingn truly great chese restaurants. >> why is that. >> i'm not sure why that is it would be a grt article be written. >> i have been toldecause was always asking about that. is it the great inese chef never me to new york? they stayed on theest coast or they just never came. they never immigrated. >> sometimesmmigration pattern and cultural matters like tt, actually ftor to what our restaurant ene is licand what we get to eat so what ki of foodo you like? >> other tn fried chicken. >> you kw, two cuisines i love iparticular are italian and janese. t i'm really, really like an equal opportunity glutto >> there is an interesting thing. people would say janese foods good for you,ou would never in weight if you eat japanesed if beuse it doe't have a lot of fa content or protein. >> right. >> it is defitely safer than not. >> and pta is sort of by

definition not supposed to be. >> y know, but pasta isn't, i an pasta, it fine for you in the right measure. any ofhese foods can ke you t if you eat tm without restrat. and ne of these foods will ke you fatf you eat them with rtraint. we're back to thehole portion thing. >> rose: whaabout fast od. >> fast food well fast fd is terrible. fast food is almost designed in a way that it isade to make you hungry even as you fini eating it whether you are looking at the soum, the corn in it. i mean 's a disaster. >> re: do you have favorite restaurants in w york. >> many of them, yea >> rose: give me tee or four. >> i love labernan for a pasta fix. rose: you love it because it is the best -- >> it es what it -- it doeshat it does. which is you know nd of progressive fren seafood at a level that is so consistently hig it's a maizinthat that restaurant, it never falters ,. >> rose: eric repare has a tv show. >> but what is intesting, he has a tv show now buhe hasn't had that ch stuff gog on. that is onof the reasons why i thk it remas so strong

he not one of these chefs who have expanded and diversified and cloned himself out the w, zoo. >> rose: a restauranin investigateas. >> he has been very, ver focused. >> ros based on your experience wt makes a eat chef? ich is a question i have asked eat chef. >> dication. >> rose: passion clearly >> passion is the top of the list, dedication, intelligen and a measure of humility. becausa great chef needs to realizethat he is in the business o pleasing people and he has to have his or r own vision. owe or she has to he her own visionbut has to also ki of really look at how pele are responding to e food and tailor his or her effort as ringly. >> have you ever eaten at abulu. >> yes, in spain. >> rose: tell about it. i had an amazinnight there because i was the as frank bruni, not there anonymously. >> rose: tell us about the restaurant. >>-- theather of modn molecular gas tn omee, avant-garde cook.

the wedng science fiction and food that produce those things that exple in one bite in your food, luid ravioli and olives thaare sentially nd ofll liquid and no casing but they somew hang togeth. you pet them i their mouth and the flav explodes, th kind of his signature. >> rose: he is considered, david change, ople like that sd to me an oers ha said he is the best chef in the world. he has -- he has med cooking forwarthe most. and he's done th most sort of redevil thin. >> rose: which is an interesting definion of what makes greatness. >> he a visionary. we aign greatness to those people w take us in rections we never imagined we could go and that is wh he has done on thulinary ont. >> what are e new food centers america that are gaining in tes of reputation and quality? >> well, u know,wo portlands, portla oregon and porand ine right now are both hot restaurant cities. you knowi hi there is always interesti sthufn los angeles but for somef the same reaso as new york because it such a

multiethniplace. >> rose:nd around the rld. >> one of the problems- one of t constrain of the dini job is to visit enough nework restaurants often enou to do reviews the way we do them at the times which is tee, four, or five visits per review. i actually didn't get to travel muc it's my hope now that i will get tsee some of the different places of the world that i never had the time to go to as restaurant critic in w york. >> rose:ow confident are you that you've overcome the yo-yo effect? >> moderatel confident but i -- i say that in part cause i think if -- why do you say -- >> i thinkverconfidence is the path, you know, toward renewed ru or something. i mean ihink at if you become too confident, you lose your waffleful -- watchfulnessnd i feel like this is something my need be disciplined around fo is sometng i work on every single day sti. >> do u cook? >> i haven't been cook much over the last five and a half years. i haven't had much need. >> if you did, you lo some

of them. i will make a renewed effort in that direction just now. >> is your mothy live. >> n no. >> she didn't get a chce to. >> no. >>o see what her son did in terms it of his foray into food. >> i hope, i think and i hope she wld have enjoyed that bk greatly. i'm sorri never gotto ke her on my restaurant adventes over thelast fi and a half years, she would have had a ball. >> born round, t secret history of a full-time eater, frank brun thank you. >> thank you very ch. >> tha you for joining us. see you next te. captioningponsored by se communications captioned by media access gup at wgbh acss.wgbh.org