>> rose: welcome to e broadcast. tonight a conversationbout the white hoe media strategys the president will be appearing on five sunday showshis weekend. >> i'll give you a strategy in one seence, charlie, all obama, all thetime. theedia may dstories about e president being erexposed but nobody is rning down those invitation. it's really striki. he doe't have to go on five sday shows. coju do meet the pressr fa the nation, and make news with whatever he s to say. but in eve opportunity whether it's the fou prime time ns conferences, the joint address to congress, thaddress to a joint session of congress in prime me, and now doing the rd blocking thing onunday moing,his white house

and this preside seems to delight in cranking up the volume. some wld say toar splittinglevels. one of the things that we'vseen in the polls is at people like rack obama. d so the more he gets out there, smiling, appeari comfortable d at ease while defending his policies, you know, 'll see whether or not he n improve t support for hisolicies which ven't fared as well as his persona. but i think when you've got this fraured environment, it's dficult to break through, it's difficu to make an impression. you've got to run many more tv ads in campan than you used to to break through. they've got a gu whois exceptionally fted and ey're using him as much as possibles the most critical ment of his presidency because he know if he doesn't get healt care in particula, that would be a very, vy serious ow to him. >> and i think like the great hollywood sta, obama s this mystique. he withholds a litt something of himlf at all mes. so thawhen you s him, even though you seem him -- see him a lot. you don'feel like y're

getting the entireicture with him andhat keeps you nting to come back mo wi him >> obama wouldive one eech about, you know, health care at lunchtime and a stimulus, you know, at 3:00n the afternoonment anurban renewal at 6:00 and israel at 8:00 and what do you do. but here's what i think is dr. ing. agaithis would hav been heresy in the reagan era. you had one message and that was it a you made sur everyby got it and thas not what is haening any more >> rose: we coinue going om the presidency to food. frank brun the forr restaurant critifor the "new york times" has written abouhis eeriences in a new book cald "born round" so they come to you. you have had these varied experience athe "new york tis". be to columbia joualism school as well. and they say we wantou to be the fd critic. and wh did you say? >> wl, i did whatever the equivale of a doubleake isn the telephone. i was sort of surprised. i me i knew that the times like the way wrote and trusted with a de variy of things buti dn't expect them to come me with that offer. itas surprising because i dn't written a lot about food.

but what n all of them knew that i knew is that it was also a really ironic offebecause of my long history th food. i'm one who really struggled a lot forge a healthy relaonship. >> so that made itore likely you wld accept it or n accept it. >> initially i wasn'sure. ultimately it was e of the things tt lead me acce it. >> rose: the president in the mediaand the restaurant critic in the restaurants. next. >> fding for charlie rose has been provid by the foowing: captioning sponsoredy rose commucations

from our studios in new rk city, thiss charlie rose. wi a look at how the president uses media to get his message across. in his first eight months in fice president obama has anted 117 interviews, 66 on television. this week he will be making his case for health-car reform on althe mor networks on cnn,nd on spanish language uni vision. willot appear on fox. nday night he will be the sole guest on vid letterman's late show. the wall to wall coverage has resurreed lock anding questions about the risk of overexposure. also todayirst lady michelle obama made her first foray in the health ca debate speakg at the white hoe. shealled healthcare a woman's issue. >> i think it's clear that health insance refo and what it mns for our families is very mh a womes issue. it is very much a women's

issue. d if we want to aieve true equality for wom, if that is our goal f we want to ense that women have opportities that they deserve, if at is our goal f we wantwomen to be able to care for their families and pursue things that ey uldnever imagine, then we have t reform the sysm. we have to reform the system, the stat quos acceptable it is holding women and falies back. and we know it. rose: joining me now jennifer senior of "w york" magazine,he writes about prident obama's media stragy in the august issue that magazine. from washingto howardurtz media critic for "the washington post" andost of cnn's reliable sources. johnarwood of cnb and "the new york mes", he's interview thed president twice since he toooffice, most recently lasteek. from bton aln schroder, profesr of journalism and northeastern univsity, i am pleased to ha all of

them her let me begin with howard kurtz. tell m what you tnk the media strategy is, howard. and does it is a a lot about the media or does it is a more about this president? >> i'll give you a strategy in one sentence, allbama, all the time. and look, th media may do ories about the president being overexposed t nobody is turning down the invitaons. it's really strikin he doesn have to go on five sunday shows. cojust do meet the press or face the natio and makeews with wtever he h to say. but in ery opportunity whether it's the fourrime time news conrences, the joint addss to congress, e address to a joint session of congress in prime time, annow doing the road blocking thing on sunday morning, this whi house and this president seems to light in cranking up the volume. some would say to ear splittinlevels. >> okay, but is it because he is so goodt it or is it because he livesn a new media world that no other esident has lived. >> well, he is a very go counicator and he is the salean and chief particularly right now f the strgling health care

policy. but if youee him on all the sund shows andn leno and on letterman and doing basketball on espn d everything this side ohome shoppi network. at some point does that dilute the impac >> what you think, john? >> iam not sure that we've gottone thatoint yet. look, one the things that we've seen in the pos is that peopleike barack obama. and the more heets out there sming, appearing comfortable anat ease while defending his policies, u know, we'll s whether not he canimprove the support for s policies which haven' fared as well as his persona but i think wn you've got this fractured envirment, it's dficult to break throh. it's difficult to make a impression. you've got t run many mor tv ads in a campaign than you used to t break throh. they'vgot a guy who is exceptionally gifted and they're usg him as muchs possible at most ctical ar of his presidency because knows if he doesn't get health care particular, that would be very, re serious blow to him. >> rose: canou look at

wh he's done and make the case thahe's made a difference, that it's been a gamehanger on any particular issue or having to do with the whi house edibility? >> well, do think h speecho congress was successful last we in coeying the impression to a broad audience nationally that he was being reasonable. he cast himself assomebody who was rejectgadical ideas of the right. radical ideas of the left ancasting himself in the center, reaching out t republics. john mccain, judd gregg, chucgrassley, that sort of thing, to ma the avege peon out there at home saying wow t looks likee's being pretty reasonable. on the otherand he had some real partisa rhetoric sort of bued withinhe speech that hewasn't going to waste time wi people ying to kill his bill. ani think that was effectivin rallying his base whichs the most importt thing he's got to do rht now to get this thing through. >> rose: when you ck at what he's doing, alle, where is t risk? >> well, i tnk the risk is

particularly ts weekend, all of these unscripted performances, you kn. the interview suation is somethinthat he handles pretty well. but you can remeer that when he went othe jay leno sh back in march he made th little crack about the special olpics that got m into a lot of trouble. so although i think the sunday morningashington ows are going to be fairly predictable in the q & a i think this letterman thing the other hand could be kind of inresting just to see how manvers through what is a much more risky situation. >> i couldn' agree more. much more,s it is easy to edict the kind of questions on the sunday shows it isuch less easy to look at whatdavidmight do. >>ay i slighy disree. absolutely. only in the sense that i don't ink that any one news storyets traction n, paicularly w whether it is good or bad for very, very lo. i mean i thi that we are now in thikind of high vecity news cycle were people are constantl hitting th refresh button. the idea tt somebody may say somethg, thepecial olpics story had ten

minutes of legs in part because he appall gized -- apologized quickly. he made quick apology. but also because i don't think that the news cycle allo for it. the other ing i would say out this, about debating whether or not he is erexposed and i think is important to rememr, is that you know a lo of the journalistwho were initlly complaining that he wasverexpose -- expose product journalists whhave a beat, were showi up a lot on tevision. were bloging, had --ere tweeting, were upding their status on thr facebook pages every, you know, ur or two. i mean think inthis particular med climate, peopr on the side of exposing themsves too much. and not tooittle. i mean the whole point here is that it takes lot more inuch a fraured, diffuse kind of space. or environment toet your message out >> charlie i don --. >> rose: go ahea horx ward. >> i don't think the sunday show is cessarily going to be that predictable. when theresident is talkg about george stephanopoulos andavid egory and john king and bob schieffer, they may want

to talk about things he's not dying to talk out. for example jimmy carter's pungent suggtion about some of the president's critic being aociated by race. obama don't want to have at discussion. d here's my point about whether or not he's blunting his own impact by bei out thertoo much. presidt i spoke tosteve krt on "60 minutes" last ekend. d it didn't make anywhere near as much of an impt as his two earlier interviews with steve kroft on "60 minutes" since the eleion, since he bece president. usually en a president of the united tats goes on "60 minute that is amajor event. it has become more coonplace and i think metimes can be a little harder to break rough if it ijust okay, there he goes again >> rose: you leslikely to say i have got toee this because it is soare. now you think you ve seen it because he habeen at other places. let just make one point about that, the predictable of it. i would suggest that the white house will assume there will be all kinds of questions but they will know 90% ofhe questions that are asked, as welas thought about themwouldn't you think so, john? >> charlie, i think you're absoluly right.

i agre with jennife i think the risks of this are pretty low. i n't thinthere are too many people in the wte house sweatingullets because ey think barack obama can't hand himself in front of camera. yes, the speci olympics thing, he was trying to be funny. it actually w kind of funny but it was theind of thing that he hato take back becau youave people aggrieved in certa situations. but i just don't think tha barack obama runs too mh risk ofurting himself the more he gets ou there given how,f you look at the polls, even people who don't approve of his policies fend toind him persolly charismac, appealing, nice guy. all of that stuff i think is a plus for a president >> rose: should have omitted fox? >> would say it is a mistake. now i know that people on the le and mocrats say, you know, fox news, particularly the lik of glen beck and sean hanty beat uon the president all the time but fox news also has a pretty substantialudience inable terms. d for the president to just blo off fox, you know

maybe good politicwithin the democric party but that's o audiencehat is tohe going to be getting the messageon sunday morning an chris walla is not one of the conservative flame throwers on that network. >> rose: and i tught some- hillary, for example, dia very good job? an interviewith bill o'reilly during the campaign and i think othe have made note of e president' appeance with bill. whato you think, len. >> it isn'as though obama won't be on the fox network with whater he says in these inrviews. th will use the clips just the same as everydy else. so you know, he will appear on fox, just not in on of their own --. >> ros but that is the point. he i omting fox. he to the going to fox. ould very done that? because x has be, you know, hashe sort of posture that it does? well, i think -- >> go ahead. >> i think you ways get a little credit for going someplace difficultnd so in that sense, he may be deprivg himself ofn opportunity to cld be front his critic but i don know.

i am not sure what the gain would be forim. >> ros what is the gain by nogoing? >> the gain by not going, well, i don't ow. maybe asjohn suggest, it pleases his democrati base >> charlie, i don't think he's tryg to please his se. i will take guess as to why they are not doing it. the guess would be that they are sitting there saying these people hit us anawful lot. why should we gi this to them. anit's sort of a flection, a little bit of theolarization of the environment th we are in. he probably thinkshat wod have about as much effect as winning over fox and thsort omore ardent memberof the fox audience ansitting down with mitch mcconnell to do health care right now t will not get there you r. >> rose: john, y have interviewed him. does he say much in intervie or is he just simply good at explaining

his position? i don't see him makinghat much news. does he? well, it depends. i found him a very good interview subjecin the first place evenhough he's the presidenof the united states, he is somebody who will actuay listen a gauge with question. somebo who will not filibust and let you have a chance to ask a number of questions. he made newshen i talked to him in ne about iran when h talked about the -- he minimized the differences teen preside ahmadinejad and the oppositi candidate at that tim and peopl took note of that. that's right. i thought he made new the other day whewe talked about afghanian and he said afghanistan is no vinam. you don't step into the sam river twice. but said he was thinking longnd hard about overach and the poibility or the danr of going to war witut adequateupport at home. so i think he was willing t be a little reflective there. and i alsohought he made a little bit of news in saying he was strgly inclined against additional enomic stimulus. so i think he is -- i think

he ds okay. esidents generally speaking try not to make news in thr interviews. remember in the past having --. >> ros it is not that he doesn't do okay. it's just that is he telling us a lot that don't know? >> i think that barack obama tends to speakin paragraphs and not sounbites and in a way i kind of admire that in a present. but usually en any politician is going to d these tv interews he gets th his advisors and they figure whado they want t headline to be,hat do they want thehrases to be on the front pagef the pers. and o bomb -- obama doesn't do that. he kind ofisdains that. i have heard him half a dozen times lk about the 24 hour news cyclend the chatter and the punditry. and he see to want to communicate at a somewhat higher level which may work r him but also tends to work again paging a l the -- a lot of news. >> that is an old medi strategy i mean i think tt sound bites were a oduct of scarcity. if youad only three networks and a half dozen o a dozen major pape driving ne, you could consolidate, you coulmake sure that o message happened if you haveike a sound

bi preferably that rhymed or was a literateive and you said it in a way that was perftly clear to everybody and theyarried . you don't needo do that any more. you've got bgs galore that can pick up bits and pieces or chunks of your text. you can find everythin he everays on the huffington post in full. and also, i mean es he a guy who understds the power of youtube. heives a long time. >> the 37 minu speech on race was one of the most watched things. >> i guess hours of its havi done it. it was also one of the most watched speeches of his campaign. so i think that when you don't have sound bites to worry about and you speak fairlyell, at great length, al you know he is a good explainer which is t other thg. >> that is whathe health care speech was about. >> so the fact he not maki news but he is still elucidating and eliminateg difficult concepts f people. >> on the her hand, jennifer, when oba had his fourth prime time new confence and the broadcast networks areot that happy with himecause it is costing them tens of millns of dollars for these preempon, he, the

reporters were lking at ea other as thathing was winding down. he gave all the same answers health care he had given for weeks. they were sayi what is the lead. then the final questn, the one about the hry louis gates. what became the big news because it was -- >> that is my point again abt making news. >> except the on thing i would y about that, i pain are you right. the only thing would say about that is that was reporters. we marinat in this stuff so of course we know whene is given the same answer 19 million times. but for people whoant to really understand heth care, i think that tre is some argument to be said for if you have somebodyho can exain it. i mean i'm not -- i sympathize but -- >> the ratings went down >> verlittle adheres in this particular news climate. >> there is another possibility do,uys. maybe e questions at t press conferens were lousy. >>xactly. >> rose: exactly. so allen, is hi stregy working? i mean is it so -- he may become overexposed at some int but so far it doesn't look likethat. >> no, it doesn't lk like that.

and i think one the interesting thgs about him and i'm always interted in lookin at the connections tween the presidency and the wayollywood works. and i think like th great hollywoo stars, obama has this mystique. he whholds a ltle someing of himself atall times so that when you see him, even thgh you seem hia lot, y don't feel like you're getting the entire picre with him a that keeps you wting to come back andear more from him. >>ohn, who drives this strategy ithe white house. is ithe president hielf? is press cference? is it rahm emanuel? who? >>ell, i think rahm emanuel dres an awful lot in that white hoe. obviouy david axeld, ita dunn who ishe commications director and gibses who hashe final call on a l of those press questions about what interviews he's going t do and how muchpress time they're going to putn his schedule. i thk they're makingthose decisions and ey've been fairly coheeseive in doi that. all of them, i think,

realize that they've got somebo with a lot of tant and they've got the momenthey need that talen right now. and i wi say that you know some othe frame of analysis has been that you know the prident's health care initiive is in trouble and he's got to save it i think a lot of that has been fundamentally wrong. the predent, they're n maki it up when they say they're further along on this than anybody has been trying it in the past. you want to lo at a unccessful legiative look at billclinton on health care in '93 and '94 angeorge w. bush on cial security a few areaago, they are lely to get somethg, ing what the president wants or the principls he wants. obviously a lot ofetails are yet to be completed. but they're not doing badly at all right now. >> so you are -- you believe that the preside's health care strategy in tmsf what hhas constructed and how he has counicated it, he gets high marks? >> yes, i mean the proof's going to be inhe results

at the endut if you look at where ware in the process righnow, it look like he's going to make it to the go line. he, i interviewedlympia snowe this week and olympia snowe had very positive things to say abo barack obama which suggest that she might be there with democrats either on a clure vote or some other critical vote they ed to try to get th through. >> so he willot lose any democrats? >> i think he may lose democrats on the vote on passage for the bi am but he has a betterhance of lding democrats on a fibuster vote. that's where snow is so itical. if you decide that reconciliation is too colicated and difficult and yowant to survive a filibuster,ou need to hold all your 59 democrats and then add o more. and i thinthere are some signals om olympia owe. it's not determined yet tt she might be wilng to cast at 60th vote to get past the fibuster and then if you did at, somof the democrs, nelson andome othemore moderate and conservativeemocrats might actually ve against the bi on final passage but it wouldn't matter once y got

over thatilibuster threshold. >> ce back to the question of what the president ha been talking aut. th republicans, how do ey view what he doing because it is said by some republicans it's hard, because hes sbiquitous, onne issue after another, it's hard to resnd because 's already moved on to somethg else. health care is different because it cuts deep a it is his most pfound issue and a lot of his predency accoing toany observers hangs on doingt and succeedingt least at having a bil but he makes it difficult for the republicansecause is a fleeti targe >> but even charl if republicans want to respond theyon't he a lot of telegenic party leaders. you don't e mitch mcconnell or john boeer o tv tha much and not the world's most effective communicators. filling that vacuum seems to be peopllike rush limbaugh and glen beck and sean nnity. now maybe it's unfair for those us of in the media to put those lk show hos

out because oiously their job is to be provocative, someould say inflammatory. but they sm to be emerging more as spokesman for the conservative movement in this congresand with this president than i've ever seen in e years thai have been folling washt. >> rose: a whyo you thinthat is? >> i think they are good copy. they say tngs that are controversial so journists like tt. ani think they, because the republics don't run anything here in washington, they don't control eher chambeand they don' have a presidentialront runner so early in the game this time arod, that there is this voi thathe people like rush and glenn beck are more than happy to fill. >> goingo your poi about hang multiple messages, having linfour or five a day, i mea that is the stragy. that was a b piece of the story that i wrote. quoting a lot of . >> rose: probably where i got the idea. >> dn't want to say anything but yes, therwas a republican who was immenselyfrustrated and said he coul't lock in on target andim. and what i thoug, younow,

obama would give one speech about, you know, health care at lunchtime and the stimulust 3:00 in the afternooandurban renewal at 6:00 and israel at 8:00. and what dyou do. but here is what i think i interesting. agn, this would have been heresy in the reagan era, you know, you had one ssage and that was it. and you made sure everybody got it and that's not what is happening any more. again there are so my diffent platforms to carry yo message now. you can have nine a day t doesn't maer. >> rose: speaking that, allen, what ppened to the restauranted idea that this caaign following the howard dean camign mastminded new media. theyere very smart about it they used it ver well. they raise money. th used al kin of ans to get out their message, both aa candidateand now as president. how, where is that all going? >> wl, it's definitely a big piece of what's going on here. all you need to dos go on tohite hse.gov an will u see links to facebook, twter, my space, even

itunes, so they are very smart about this i think jennifer wrote out this in her piece very interesting lee teng-i, i thought this use of flicker, the photo strm. these white house phot that a released on y know, sortf an endsless basis at is somethingthat hasn't been tried so far and s been very effective, i think, in getting o their message even just visually. >> and actually, to connect to your fascinatn with managing the presidential image and managing the celebrity image, one of the things that i thoht was interesting about thwhite house flicker ream is the fact that theyave so many beautiful polished sts that they've taken themselves and th they've already loaded on-line that they're sitting -- shutting they famously didn't allow ite house or press photographers, you know, mainstream papers d to take pictures the oval office in the first daof offi. because they had tir own shots offer. and they had their own shots on-lin and i was reminded very much of angelina and brad sort of releasing their own phot of their babys sthat they

could control is one iconic image. you know, it's a way of preemptivelyyou know, well, our imag is going to be better than theirs, suddenl it drivedown the value of any otr image out the. >> absolutely ithere is also -- >> mgm in the 1930s, the studio phographers doing everything they can to mak the starook great. >> that's it. >> rose: there is also thi >> i'm sure glad jennifer took that estion because m old media. i couldn't find the flicker stream if you made me. >> i am so old media but'm so flattered tt you think i'm not. >>ose: there is this, also imean he is as i think ra emanuel once poied out, not just a political phenomenon, is a culral phenomenon. anhe is probabl the biggt star in the world. and thefore, he burns brightlynd therefore why not take advantage of it while -- while the focus is on you. hord -- and on that, i agree wh that, arlie. this a world famous ltural fire, obviously ground-breaker in tes of the historof the unid

states but there anoer star in the white house and he you eluded to r earlier, michelle obama. she startsdoing intervie and giving speecs, she did ontoday about health care. the journalistic aptite to get thenterview with michelle is even more intense right now becaus she has done so few o them. obama, everybody wants the president but he hasmade throunds. he is virtuallyived in the main treatment media. michelle is cultural figure in her ownight, also a very sma first lady and i think that is a wpon that maybe they've been holding back a little bit that the white house is now ing to deploy in this fall campai especially to win health care. rose: john, you have met a lot of politicians anyby better than he is in an interview? >> well, bill clinton is pretty good at interviews too. and --. >> rose: bette is bill clinton better? >> no, no -- look, part of this is self-referential, right. i have inrviewed barack ama more than i interviewed bill clinton o george w. bush. although i knew george w. bush over a nuer of years

when i was the governor of texas. he could be verycharming privat tend to be most arming in sort o off the record moments. but no,ook, barack obama, he is extremel bright. he's very fluid and -- verbally which is something, of coursethat the media likes. and he's got star power. so a of those things make him a terrific interew. you know, rold reagan didn't give a ole lot of one-on-onenterviews when he was president. he had somemagic too. >>ose: okay, does (kbam -- barack obama enjoy this, is he out tre because not only does it serve his political goals but, in ct, he likes it in theame way that se might have suggted president kennedy liked the press conferen? anybody? >> that's an interesting question, charlie. i'm not sure we knothat. ani'm not sure we can know that jusyet. but he certainly doesn't recoil from it. and back to this thing about his inteiews. you know, other thing that strikes me is he is really good in serious interviews

you ow straight news interviews le the ones he d with john. but he is also really good in these lighter interviews. he's done a nuer of them with david letterman. he did one in september of last yr during the campaign that was fascinating because it xed content pretty seous content issuelike iraq and afghanistan and 9/11 with very persol regulaon -- recollections of gwing up and things aboutis kids. so he you know,e's able to make that transitn quite nurally. >> i also thk he's -- i ink the law professor in him comes out when he does this. really think that it does play to his -- to tse particular slowedia that he does. >> i think the speeches call on the samekill. it's the president as teacher in ief. >> and as reason, like supreme cour opinions that are very carefully rnd, i think in somway. look how he got elected. >> it waby givingpeeches and giving --. rose: exactly right not president has ever -- candidate has er been more defined than hhas. i mean and in use of language andll of that. t what you pray, don you, harwood, that don't fly

shows up. >> that waa great moment, are yokidding me. >> gd television. >> sometimes you just t lucky and thats with one of those moments. rose: there you go. thank you all,leasure. >> thank you. we'll be right bk. stay with us >> frank bruni is here in his career as a joualist has written about everything fropolitics to region to the missamerica paant. but up until 2004, he had never written about food. neverthess, in april of that year hewas named restaurant critic for "t new york times". the appointment was made more complicated by his life longtruggle with food and weig. love and struge. he writes aboutll of these experiences in his nook born round. i am pleased to have ank bruni at this table to talk about this ok. weome. >> thanks for having m >> rose: you were th rome correspondent. wod you cover theush campaign and predency and thenou went to rome.

>> tt's right, for two year >> rose: are youere there. and th wasood dut, was it not. >> it wanot a bad job to have, i love italy. >> rose: like going home >> no, my gndparents on my father's side were om italy so irew up in at sprawlg american family that made ity feel like home. >> rose: and went to schoo at the uversity of north carolina where you were a moread scholar which down there you sort of bow down morehead scholars. >> it was a ce honor. >> rose:o they come to you. >> uh-huh. >> re: you have had these varied experience at t "new york times" been to columbia journalism school awell so you had an interesting reer deloping. and theyay we wantou to be the food critic. and what did you say >> well, i did whatever the equivalent of a uble take is onhe telephone. i was sort of surprid. mean i knew that the times liked the y i wrote and trusted with a wide variety of things but i didn't expect them tcome to me with tt offer. it was surprisinbecause i hadn'tritten a lot about food. but what not all of them knew that knew is that was also a really ironic offer because of my lon historwith food. i'm someone who really stggled a lot to forge a

healthy relationship. >> rose: sthat made it more likely would you acpt it or not acceptt. initially i wasn't sure. ultitely it was one of the things that lead me to accept it because i lt like it was theast act, e last chapter in ts complicated narrativ of mine with eating and food. >> rose: you have written here that yourlife had been defined by that in part. >>'m one of these people who was alwa thinking about eating. i was always eang too little or eati too much. you know there a people, and maybe are u one of them charlie who say at 5:00 p.m. i was so busy today i fort to eat. >> i'm o of those. >> when meone says thato me, u are a space alien to me. i don't know what you ar talking out. if it is 50 p.m. a i haven'eaten, i'm well awe of if and i'm countg the mites to the meal. >> rose: before the meal comes to make up >> ectly. >> rose: a you might have o serves wants that's right. >> rose: becse you are aware u didn't. >> if i have bn depriving myself i will reward myself on the tail end. >> rose: let me talkbout restauras for a second. did you love the beat. >> oh, yeah. i mean this ione ofthose priveged jobs. i an it a job. yohave to go to the staurants. it becomes a duty over time

but it ian enormous privilege to be able to go nighafter night to some of the best resurants in the citynd in the world andto beble to share your thouts about them with people. it great. >> rose:id you do anythin to get -- to prepare? >>ou know, as soon as started thinking aut talkg the job, i began reading, you know my night table reading became heavi toward food and fd memoirs and everywhere i went to eat i begalooking at menus in a new way and continuay educating myself. i knew a lot about food alread you know, like anyone who is an eager eater and anyone who s traveled widely as i had, i had a grt deal of perience with food. but i ha't necessarily kind of adopted the formal vocabulary that goe with restaunt. >> ros would you call urself a new york term, i'm t sure worldwide, foodie. >> guess i would have called myself a foie but not a full-fledged foodie to get very-. >> rose: in the same way jony apple was a foodie. >> yh. someone with a great app -- appetite a great ciosity. >> rose: an nnoisseur and nethe great restaurants whence i was in rome for two years traveled a lot in up. >>. one of the firsttems on my

agenda wn i went ywhere new s to figure out where i wasoing to eat. never mastered that to the extent johnnie apple company. i don' think anyone could t on a lower junior level, maybe. >> rose: i mean if i was in any city i would want johnny to tell me whi should eat. >> you are a wiseman. >> rose: and he would write very interesng reviews in talking abt if if he was doina profile of either th proprietor or in ct the food. >> well, johnny was really good a i learned a lot fromhat about -- en he wrote about a restaura, when he wre about eating not making it justabout wh was within the boundaries of that pla. >> rose: hmade it an experienceal thing. >> he understands a restaurant exists in a city, in a moment t the sto of its proprietors tha there a gger story than the halibut. he ia great exale to all of us. >> rose: so you went io this deciding you would do it a lite different or what. >> yeah, i wt into it feelg very strongly that in this day and i believ especily with the internet

the p.m. of pple reading that restauranreview to make a stinction -- distinct decision abt whether go to the restaurant that is amall grp of your rders, very view readers using the review as a map for the restaurant. re people wanted a vicarious experience, more are going to the review for the literarpleasure of reading it. >> rose: are ty really? >> think so. >> rose: that surprises you say tha because we heathat restrant ctics like theatre critics are powerf, if yodon't like a restaurant, theestaurant owner is going into a deep depression. >> that is financial - >> rose: fancially and emotionally. >> tt true for that number of the people reading the review that are using as a service piecent but in the intern age when we've got readerpproximates in california. wee got readers over in you ow, in serbia, we got aders everywhere. in that day and a you have to write sometng that has appeal to peopleho are never going set foot in that restauran at least think you do. >> rose: what is hard abou it? e thing that's cle in this book is that you do not

want them to know that "the new york times" restrant crit sick there. >> you don't wanthem to know are you tre which is pretty muc impossible to corol. but what youan control is them knowing whether y are coming. so a lot omy energy was always spent on making sure there was no tell in the way i made a reservaon, that it might be for me and that i ght be coming through the door. >> andou had a special card at the thatthe times cooked up, themerican express card. >> at any giv momt i h about five difrent fake crit cards and i changed them u every year. and ov time iwas smart enough to makehem gender neutral names so i cou pass them unr the table to a woman as well as a n. but there a whole almost kind o cert operati angle tobeing a restaurant -- >> how often do you think were you successful. most othe time or 50% of the me or -- >> it's probay something like 50/50. it depds entirely on the calibre the restaurant. if it a serious restaurant that believes its fortunes will be affected -- affected by a review in its first uple ponts when it is on its most heighten vigilance for critics, it is

rely hard to get in the door more than a coue times without being spotted. >>ou went to great lengths not to be photographed. >> absolutely. i learne forive and a half yearsven at family gatherings i would instinctively step outside the frame ofhe photo it was like it becameike a flex, you know. >> and how wou you do it? so you maka rervation. and you go and what are you looking for? how doou go throh what is necessary for you to feed the proce of writing a review. >> well, iidn't have a checklist of things i was looking forive. really kind arrived with an open mi and hefully an empty stomach. sometimes not as hef -- empty as it should he been. and a rifedo have a good time on that restaurt's terms . and en from there metimes disappointment was creep in and a good time wouldn't be had. but i alwayswanted more than not to have a good me and to let that restaurant please me. cause that's the goal, you know. i wasooking ateverything fromervice to what the food on the plate was. but i wasn't kind of assigning percentage of sayingou know, --amount

longs to service, -- to -- >> i got you. >> but youould sleep ay sometimes into theathroom d call home and leave on yr voice-mail or whatever. >> exactly. >> mechanism you had. >> yeah you would write notes. >> i seldom wrote notes becae it took too long and you couldn't do it at the ble. so my methodhich you caught on was i wld takey cell phone ango into the bhroom if it had reception and call myself noteto betranscribed the next day wnsd did you always go with somedy or would u go alone. >> i always went with a couple people. usually groups four. becae you wa could conquer as mucof the menu you can. you sit down and say you are doing the lmon, you are doing the b ewitnesses u were going to sale all oft. >> yeah, you know rotate plates and thais attention getting buyou have to do . >> exactly >> a sursign. >> and didou evero like the third time a all of a sudden it was ry different, and very good d you were surprised. >> yeah, and then i uld often go a four time because you would wa to know likwhich of those firsthree visitsas the exception and which wathe

evolvi rule. >>nd what did you generally fi. >> you know, you fnd differt things and you ended having to even i out. if sortf like a professor at the end of a school semester. you take all the exams, add em together, divide by four or five or whatever and figure out what the norm is. >> what are the numrs about e opening an closing of restaurants ithis city? >> well, you know, restaurants are stil opening at a incredibl brisk ratet is just a different kind of staurant that is ening. what we have seen is the fo-star restaurants. the restrants with white table cloths and 45 dollar entrees. they a not opening at the sameate. but the other end. >> are the doing the same business because of th economic crisis. >> i think they are rely struggling. where they are rely struggling is mo of them had certain amount of prate party business. they had kind of rooms and annexs, where business entertaining was done. and noonly is themoney wn for that but it's no longer, it's longer shionable for businesses to spend mey right now on that sort of thing. >> and whatas the nge of restrants you would go to. i an you would go to -- >> prey much erything. i wouldt go to aurely neighborhood pla or a

place that jus existed for bargain eating becausee ha other people at the time was do that sorof thing. the $25 thing. >> exactly. but terms ofuisine, you know, the full range, in rms of the city's neighborhoods, i tried to t out of manhattan frequent g to queens, brooklyn. thereological wen't a lot of bouries. >> and what was the reaction after u wrote the review? >> did you alway hear from em. >> no, aually you sell dom heard from them. because if they re happy, they didn'twant to imply like that you had donehem a favo u don't thank someone for a good riew because you earn your good review. ifhey were unhappy, the figud we don't know how long thiguy is going to stick ound, we don't know ife will review some other restaunt sow webetter stay momtum and you have e exception. >> rose: wt was the worst exception. >> the worst excepon was a restaurateur who took out a full page ad and paid a emium to put it opsite the reew and the ad id this man is horrle. hedoesn'tdeserve his job, he didn't justicto my restaurant a doesn't know what he is sing. >> rose: what haened to the restrant, did it survive.

>> it's to the doing well. it's to the doing we. >> rose: so how much power did you have ov the sueed -- success of a staurant? >> you know, i don know. i ied not to pause and judge that because i didt want to be thinking abou th. judging from the wa restaurateurs fussed over me when they knew i was there, judgg from the way they tried to figure out if i was comingi guess i had some powe >> tell the story abt brellas, you would always get an umbrellaif it was ining. >> itas raininand i would co without an umbrella there wou be someon waiting at the door who would give me an umbrel which he never took. >> rose: and if y wt to a fearby reaurant and got soapn your tie. i hit the bathroom soap dispenser o hard and i ended up with a bigplotch ony shirt. as i was walng out the doorhe manager was handing me his card saying if you need that be dry cleaned or need it to be replaced. i said it's aoap stain. i think is going to come out, you know. >> re: but they were very attentive tot. if they knew i was there, ey were, they were very,

very atttive. but you know sometimeshey didn't know i was therand that was just as interesting. >> re: and so at the end of this tour, how dyou decide it's or. did u decide aredid "the w york times" decide. >> we decided together. i mean always aumed it would be about four-year at mosstint. it ended up ing more than five. stayed in it lger than i initially thought i would because it made sense to leave the b as the bock came out. >> rose: andow did this changen terms of your attitudebout food, if at all. >> you know, inow even more now thai did before. because hi been posed to so much. i don't lov food any more. or any les i am not su that m attitu about it changed but i think my appreciatn for the hard work that restaurants do has incrsed tenfold. it's reay, really ha work to run restaurant and to run it well and to turn a profit and to do tt night after night, week after week, month afr month. and it's not really the glamorous busiss we think is. the profit margins are small. and the hours are ally long. and i have more respect for

that than i ev did before. >> rose: what e the ingredients of a successful reaurant. >> passi. i think paion. >> rose: passion to crea. >> they have passion t create. they have passion r hospitalit you have got tohow up in peak form night afte night in the kitchenin the dini room. and if youre going to be consistent and you are going to be great, erybody in that restauranthas to have a real passion for what going on. >> rose: some restaunts seem to attract certain crowds which give it a certain buzz. >> uh-h. >> rose: and se people seem masterful at that idea. >> well, you know, the are -- there are armies of publicists o there that help that happen. thatnteract with conerges, that make sure the rig people know a restaant is open. there is a rl herd meality once you get the fronwave of people who set the trends, everybody else follows. d then those are t restaurants that we all can't geinto annoyingly enough. >> rose: the tnd at one timeas sushi andther kinds of japane. i read that the trend today isried chicken. >> aolutely. >>ose: which thrills me,

thrills me >> rose: i love fried chicken and i have often had a problem not knowingwhere to get goodried chicken. you do not have that problem any more >> rose: know. >> would like fed chicken recommendations. >> rose: yes, indeed. >>lue rion columbus circle. i just ate there last night and what d i have, fri chicn. i love fried chicken. >>ose: this is the best news. >> we could go through a whole st am are you not going to find much don't ve. >> rose: let's talk abt that. there is love affair with food began rly. >> when i was a toddler. you know, i was o of the asons there are a couple reasons i call the book bn round but one reas is because i was bornn a met foc sense with this enmous app tied -- appeti. and my parentshenever they talked about my ildhood the test thing they ever talkedbout was how i could t and eat and eat and eat and they dn't know what to o do with that. rose: the grandmother or mother said youon't -- are you not born roundnd die square. >>ell that is the other half of the title my grandmother belved people couldn't fundamentally changeo whenever you aed her to do something that was against her percepon of her own nature, e would say born round, you d'tdie square.

and the book is about my atmpt to die like at lea oblong, not round. >> rose: but did you delop this great le affair for food. >> i was -- it was larly, i thk, an her tense from my mother and grandmother. ey were both inbieveably proud and loving cks. the book is inany respects a valentin to these two amazing, strong women in may life. and it ia portrayed of -- pore freight of food within a family. when did the struge of ight come. look at is picture. >> thawas me at 7. and that was abouthe time that classmates and friend began teasing that m initl fb and for fat boy. in the samway i was born wi a big appetite, i was pre to self-nsciousness anthat phrase fatoy really stuck with for decades. >> ros you were occasionally bimic. >> later on when iasn't exersing as much, in high school i had been a st hlete, i was a really great swimmer. when i gave th up, i was terrified that i w going toain a lot of weight d for period of time my

solution was bulia. >> re: there is also this out you as aneater and as a odie, whenyou got 9 assiment to go to rom there re people who wer saying i you take this job, you are going to leave -- you are going to gain 15 pounds. >> right, right it w the same prediction th made when iook the restaurant critic job. what people don't understand about italy, what didn't derstand because pie itian american family was an immigra family, isn't in italy they d't eat as much as we do. theyon't have the all you can eat buff. they don't hav superzed meals. >> rose: and food has a certain quality as well there terms of the way it cooked and the way it is- >> ty channel their food obsessions in the diction of quality the same way we in arican channelhem towards quantity weave a lot. i learned a lot about a althy relationship with food from living in italy those years. >> rose: that, i don't know if that is true b it seems that is a singar quality of americans is th we eat to much. >> our portions are ridiculous. >> rose: exactly. >> our portionare just ridiculous. >>ose: they say cut the portions in half. >> all thi conversation

right noabout childhood obesity. and that nversation needs to begin and end. there is ls in t middle t needs to beg and end with how much we tell kids to eathow much weive th, how much in r own eating we show them isn appropriatamount of food. we all eat too much. >> butou also when you were in italy began exercise, did you not. >> iegan to exercise religiously before ita because i took off about a ye before i went to italy i weighed 275ounds aas wearing size2 pants. there are some picture there is onef me with prident bush on air force one and i'm the dead ringer forabba the hut in th photo. and exerse was the most portant thing in getting from there toere. >> rose: and but tt's a fundamental messagtoo, isn'it? >> yeah, yeah. >> rose: buteople don't get it. >> no. you know, we're very sedentarin this country. i don't know why it is. but en i say exercise, i mean ihink we need to understand, if youant to eat as much as want to eat, and nd you, i still eat a lot. >> rose: but you look u are in goodhape.

>> i just put a down payment, exercise is down paynt so i c enjoy m eating. >> rose: y might have a milk ske or -- >> but you run a mile. >> rose: a you know if i want to enjoy is meal i have trun a meal. >> iant two things very badly. i want to enjoy and love my food, but i d'twant to be undone by that. i don't want to go ck to 275 pounds. and thanswer is not -- t answer is tooesn't your portions a little biand to exercise a lot. >> rose: all right so this is not a self-he book but -- >> no. >> rose: theedication is to my brothers mk and harry and mysister adele, you three are the luckiest hand i ever drew andy nieces chrtina and anna bela because you missed out theas time around. here are thehapters. i'm eating as fast as i can. yo-yo-me. ness i had fun wh the titles. >> insurano fat so, critical eing. >> you know what those are.

>> tho are all rected bo titles. thoswere my rner-up book ties. >> born rod try you haved over all those titles. >> yes, so i shuttled them to chapter titles. >> so todayou go out to eat how often. >> well, i top doing the restaunt critic job about a month ago. oddly enough i'm still going out to eat about four five nights a week. it's just in me. it's what i love tdo. >> rose: do it too because it's the nature of new york, it's easy. >> areat way to socialize. >> rose: a gat way to socializand there are a t of great restaurants in the city. >> we're so cky. >> rose: what, iit the best restaurant to in the wod? >> it is finitely the best restaurant town in this country. i feel qualified to say that. and i feel cfident to say that. it may be the best restaurant city in the world. weave an ethnic dirsity here it is what new york is a about. our nches is when it comes to restaurant. >> people don't regnize that as ch as theyhould. and it's not just manhatt. >> no. >> rose: gout to the flushing session o queens. >> you go to bnx and you define a section othe bronx where the italian food

there is as good as some people have sa to me as good as they have eaten in italy. >> this city is amazing th y am you just have to, you are nevemore than 10 mis from aantastic meal. >> but and i've ner understood this and peop have writt about there. we don't have that man great chinese restaurants. >> we are lacking in a couple ofhings. we're lacking in great middle eastern restaurants. we're lackg in truly great chinese restaurants. >> why is that. >> i'mot sure why tt is it would be great article to be written. >> i have be told because i was alwa asking about that. is it the grt chinese chef ner came to new york? they stayed onhe west coast or they st never came. they never immigrated. >> sometes immigration pattern and cultul matters li that, actually factor into what our restaurt scene is lick d what we get to eat. so what kind of food you like? >> other tha fried chicken. >> you kno two cuisines i love in rticular are italian and japase. bui'm really, really like an equal opportunity glutton. >> there is annteresting thing. people would s japanese od is good for you, you would never gain weight if

you eat japanesed ibecause itoesn't have a lot ofat content or protein. >> right. >> it is definely safer than not. >> a pasta is sortf by definition not suppose to be. you know, but pasta isn't, i mean pasta, it fine for you in the right measure. anof these foods can make u fat if you eat them without reraint. d none of these foods will make youat if you ea them wi restraint. we're back tohe whole portion thing. >> rose:hat about fast food. >> fast od, well fast food terrible. fast food is almost designe in a way that is made to make you hungry eveas you nish eating it whether you are looking at t sodium, the corn in it. i mean it's a disaster. rose: do you have favorite restaurantsn new york. >> many of them,eah. >> rose: give me three or four. >> i love labnaden for a pasta x. >> rose: you love it becau it is the best- >> it does what it -- it es what it does. ich is you kw kind of progressive ench seafood at a level that is so consistentlyigh it's a maing that that restaurant, it never falters it,. >> rose: eric repare has a

tv sw. >> but what isnteresting, he has atv show nowbut he hasn't had tt much stuff going on. that ione of the reans why think it mains so stng. he's not one of these chefs who have expanded and diversified d cloned himself out the w, o. >> rose: a restaant in investigateas. >> he has been very,ery focused. >>ose: based on your experien what makes a great chef? which is a question i have asd great chef. dedication. >> rose: passion clely. >> passions at the top of the list dedication, intellence and a measure of humility. beuse a great chef needs realize that he is in t busine of pleasing pele. and he has have his or her own vision. owe or she has to have her own vision but has to also kind of really look at how peop are responding to th food and tailor his or her effort as congly. have you ever eaten at abulu. >> yes, inpain. >> rose: tell mebout it. >> had an amazing ght there because i was theras frank bruni, not there anonymously. rose: tell us about the

restaurant. >> -- the fher of moder molecular gas tro omee, ant-garde cook. the weddi of science ction and food that producehose things that explodin one bite in your food, liqd ravioli and olives that e esntially ki of a liquid and no casing but they someho hang together you pet them intheir mouth and the flavor explodes, thatind of his signature. rose: he is considered, david change, pele like that saito me an oths haveaid he is the best chef in the world. >>e has -- he has mov cooking forward e most. and he's done theost sort of dadevil things >> rose: which is an interesting definiti of what makes greatness. >> he is visionary. we assn greatness to those people whotake us in dictions we never imagined we could go and that is what he has done on the cinary frt. >> what are the new food centers in america that are gaining in term of putation and quality? >> well, yo know, t portlands, portland oregon and portld maine right now are both hot restaurant

ties. you know, hi there is always interestingthuf i losngeles but for some o the same reasonss new york because it such a multiethnic ace. >> rose: a around the wod. >> one of the problems - one of the constraintsf the diningjob is to visit enough new yk restaurants often enougho do reviews the way we do them at the times which is thr, four, or fiveisits per review. i actuallydidn't get to travel much. sot's my hope now that i will get to e some of the different places of the world that i never had the time to go to asestaurant criticn new york. >> re: how confident are you that you've overcome the yo-yo effect? >> moderely confint. but i -i say that in pt because i think i i -- why do you say -- >> i thk overconfidence is the path you know, toward reneweruin or something. i me i think that if yo become too confide, you lose your waffleful- watchfulss and i feel like this is something my nd to be disciplined arounfood is sething i work on every single daytill.

>>o you cook? >> i haven't been cook much over the last five and a half years. i haven't had much need. >> if you did, you lost some of them. >> will make a renewed effort in that direction just now. >> is your motharlive. >> no,o. she didn't get a chan to. >> no. >> tsee what heron did in terms it of his foray into food. i hope, i think and i hope she wou have enjoyed that boogreatly. i'm sorry never got ta her on myrestaurant adntures over the last five and a half years, she would have h a ball. >> born round, the secret historof a full-time eater, frank bruni,hank you. >> thank you very mu. >> thankou for joinings. see you next tim captioning snsored by ro communications captioned by media access gro at wgbh acce.wgbh.org