>>ose: welcome to the broadcast. tonit, a conversation with the prime minister of th fayyad, one of the principal plers in any effort to nd peace the middle east. we underto to do certain things the israelis undertook to do certain things. it's out time that we srted to see deliverables. we triedo do the best we could rtainly the begning of 200 anwe haveome a lon way in implementing our obligations which we r.v. around enhancing our capaty to govern ourselves in all areas of governance, includinspecial security.

on the israel side, i regreat to tell u that none of those obligations have been fulfilled, beginning with free of settlements, but also inclung ch important actis like stopping incursions on areas under our contl it is very portant for us to begin to see action. >> ros we continue this evening with ric cohen d his new book "rael is real." >> israelis now have to look at the situation realistically and sortf say what's the worst situation? and the worstsituation is for israel is no israel. and how do w avoid that? the way to avoid that, i ink, is to distangle the israeli population fm the muslim population the jewish populatio, and sor separate themselves d that's what shon was doing. and e problem now is a leader strongnough to face up plitly to his own sittion with the settle and everything because ultimately-- i'm not the first

foreigsay it- the stlements endang israel and corro israelnd make isrl lose the originalission, which was never about ld, you kw? it was about people. and about savg jewsnd letting jews have ll lives. >>ose: a programming ne, our coersation with lebro james and christopher bellman will be seent a later te this week. night, palestine and israel, oking for new ideas. next. captioning sponsed by

rose cmunications om our studios in new york city, this is chlie rose. >> rose: sal fayyad is here. had been prime minister of the palestinian national authority since 2007. rmerly a respected ecomist at the world bank,he'socused on delivering security and services to palestinians. he has brought international standas to public fince and the st bank has seen impresve economic grow. accordg to the i.m.f., s economy could grow by 7% this year, two percentage points higher than eected. he also improd law enforcement and security, leadg to the lifting of some israeli check point the "new yortimes" columnist in tom eedman has called his pragmatic approach the mo exciting newdea in ab vernance ever. the prime minier is in new rk with the palestinian degation for the opening of the ited nations general

assely. earlier toda president obama met privately wh israeli pme minist benjaminetanyahu and palestinian predent mahmoud abbas. befo he went into ree-way talkwith the two leaders, he spoke stely about the urgency of resumingeace talks. >> sply put, it is pt time to talk about starti negotiions, it is time to move forward. it is time to show the flexibility and common see and sense of compromise that's necessary to achie our goals perment status of negotiations must begin and begin soon. anmore importantly,we must give those negotiations the opportunity tosucceed. and so my message to these two leaders is clear: despite all the obstacles, despite allhe history, despite all t mirust, we have to find a way forward. we have to summon the will to break the deadlk that has trapped generations of israelis and palestinians in an endless

cycle of colict and suffering. we cannot continue theame pattern of taking tentative steps forward and then steing back. >> rose: iam pleased t ve prime mister fayyad back on th program. weome. >> pleasure. >> rose: i appreciate you beg here very much and you say to the president of the united stes? i think he has it right. he said two tngs in this clip and, by the way, i than you for giving me the oppornityto see what he said about us because i was in another meeting at t time, therilateral meeting was taking place. he said th negotiatio must begin, sometng which we very much need to see happen. but he also said we must give themaximum chance for success. yoknow, focusing on the requements for success, to ensure that actually those netiations would deliver. ey would lead to the deliverables that we have been looking for, wch is to end t occupation and havan independt viable palestinian

state emerge alongside t state of israel. >> rose: what is t power and the lerage this president has? >> we need that pitical process for sur which the president of the united states was just talkg about. now... but in addition, we need to actually get o with it. not only iconnection with the political proce, the negotiatns, the discussn between t sides, bu alsoet on with it in the sense of building the states of... the stitutions of the state. ncluding or completing the sk of instution building, capacity buildingin prepation for statehood. that is impoant under any scenario. that's how i loo at this. regardless of how the political process fares-something which e president was just talkg about-- we definitely nd to... we palestinians need to do the best we n to create the institutionsf the state. i happen to believe that

statood being an objtive of the political procs, gting there, the process ogetting there would reinforce the political process the esident s talking about. ihink bothre required. need the political process to produce... tbring about an end to occupation. we need to makemaximum effort to build our own state in a way thatreinforces the chances of the political process livering what it has to deliver. >> rose: okay. o stands in the wayf that? >> well, io back to the requirents forsuccess. elements that really have to be foe focusof any serious effort to gethat politic process stard in a credible way. requirements that ha been long standing foray too long. oblitions that both sides-- the palestinian sideand the raeli side-- have taken up going back to 2003.

the conxt of the road p to peac important documts,here we undertook to do certain things, the israelis undertook too certain things. it's about tim that we started to see deliverables. we tried to do the best we could certainly e beginning of 2007. and we have com a long way in implementing our obligations which wenvolve around enhancing our capacit to govern ourselves in all areas of governance includingpecial security. on the israeli side, regret to tell you, that none of those obligations ha been fulfilled. beginng with the freeze of settlement activity, but also including such iortant actions like commitmentsike stopping military incursns on areas under our control. it is ve importantor us to ben to s action consistent with the nee to see tho only gigss fulfilled.

theye there for a reason, because they actually are related in a direct tryhe objective, to the deliverable of theolitical process, which is ending the occution, having an indepeent, viable palestian state. it is obvious as to why that has to be a free. a palestinian state i going to emerge precisely where settments continue to be built and settlemes continue to expand. so it ands to reason that there has toe a stop to all of this. >> rose: two questions, the why did the israelis do it? they clearly want... or do you believthey clearly want to see a sucssful palesniantate that will be able to ve in peace side byside with israel? do you think that's wt they want? that has. that's what needs to happe and personally do not rlly spend too much time speculating on intentis.

i take at ce value that which is said. ere's a requirement tha, you know, in ord to bring th conflict to an end, that is a matter of international consensus. another state s to emerge. thstate of israel h been there since 1948. anher state has to emerge algside the state ofsrael in der to bring this conflict to an end. in order for there to b lasting settlements, and a fr one. that'she state of palestine that's international conssus on this issue wh is really important is to get on with it. the governmentf israel has stated that it accep that notion. the current government. what is really important is to actually establi that the governmentf israel means with what it sayshen it actually said tha they'reommitted to two ate solution. >> rose: so what uld be evidence of that for you? >> pcisely what i said.

>> rose: stop settlements. >> begin ilement those obligations that ar.. by the way. >> rose: butet me just tick em off for you or you tick them offor me. stop settlement growth, wther it's existing grth of existi ttlements or new settlements stop it d do not... >> that's kachullly the language include in theoad map. that's precely what it said >>ose: two... >> stop incursionsntoreas under palestinian corol. by that i mean the isrli army into where our curity forces have deployed. >> rose:how often do that happen? i have to say less often an itsed to these days, whichis good. that's progress. but wh is important is for there be complete stoppage. that's the way it used to be u until springof 2000 the. since then, the israelarmy has been going into palestinian authity controlled areas. at has got to stop. >> rose: why has it been less in your jgment? >> securityconditions, there's no queion, have improved e

to what we have been able to do, deploying ou forcesn those ars. souch so that tually there's a great deal of calm. what is the real importance now is if there are the to be colete stop to this military activity by the israelis. actuallyyou know, continuation by israeli forces at a time wh we havestablished and demonstrated cacity in ways that he established law and order cannot but undermine our effort. i'm not reall here talkin abou the operation of risk associat with the israeli army going into ourreas, but i'm talking abouthe loss of credibity. what happenshile we are undermining our own credibility in the eyes of our own publi when they e that in our own presence, our own areas, israelis.. >> rose: you'rsaying raelis make incursions into palesnian

territory. it brings questio about yr authoritand powerwith your own people >> absolutely. becae, you know, remember, what this is abo, what shoulde abo is an exercise where we summon all the powers we have in a posite constrtive way, creating positive facts othe ground, includin demonstrating capacy to govern ourselves, proding the most basic services tour people: security andaw and order. it is imptant for this to b and to be seen as an effort... as part of an effort to end the occupati, not making it work better or to beautify it. so consistent with tha, palestinn people need to begin to see action by the government ofsrael consistent with lling back the occupation on the way endingt. if, notwithanding all that we have been able to d sce 2007 there is n significant chang in israeli behavior, peopl will going to begin to wonder-- d

with reason-- as t what th is abou >> re: and if they do, are they more likely to list to hamas than... >> yeah, unless peopleegin to see the political process deliver, you'rebsolutely righ for sure. >> rose: speak to that. is there coetition in a... beyond even that we know for the hearts and mindsof palestinians between fatah a the palestinian authority and hamas? there is, and we are in that sense no dierent from an other nation where ere is politicapluralism and mpetition. and, you kno the idehere is to really go outand do t best we can delivering t the people in the hope that they willee what you do not only a program ofaction but in terms of actions, in ter of delivery, in terms of achievemen. they will see tha response to their eds. >> rose: and that's the reon u put such emphasis on governance ipart? >> absolely. >> rose: show to thealestinian

people we can have within our own ctrol... >> you know, this is ver important, what w are trying to do. this is... oncegain, this is about ending the occupation. this is about fedom f our ople. it is a major undstood taking, major. but itequires morehan anythi else the will to succee you know, the bief that can accomplish things. more than four decades of occupaon do badhings to you, incling loss of faith in your capacity to things. by virtue what we haveeen ab to accolish since 2007 in additn to having succeed deliverg basic servicesto our people, i thinkomething else happened that is very impoant, and that is a sense of empowerment that we, indeed, can do these thing that's hugelymportant and i think it's a political element of t overall aroach to

governments, to ste-building that i believe whe we geto where we're going it will be becausehis approa to governance and to getting there will have succeed. >> rose: so if the israelis come to you while ty're here in t united natns and prime nister net you says to... benjamin netyahu says to all in the room, heays "we're epared to move forrd in this but show me that you ca in a sense exercise authori within your own community because wn we withdrew from gaza befo i was prime minister, look at ppened." >> part of the reason at happened in za happened.... rose: you couldn't contro za. >> yeah. part of the reason w that ppened-- and this is really not to absolve all sse of responbility for what happens because after all,ou know, what hpened iaza represents a failure on the part of the authority, there's n question

about that. but part of theeason why it happened is, you know, the nature, the mennantz, withdrawinfrom gaza, it happened unilarally. it was called by the israeli government yua laal rat disengagement. th did it without engagement with us. when that happens, it does not reallyeave the palestinian authority... it did notleave e palestinianuthority.... >> rose: it was not a negotiated press. it was just "we're outof here." >> they pretty muc left and threw the ke over the fence, more or less. you know, "we'll do things this way." you do noteave the paltinian auority with much in the eyes of the people for having really gettinto the point to get the israelis twithdraw from gaz e authority did notet the lift out of this thatas necessary politically. but, you know i'm not meone will shy ever ay from

adtting our own failures. you know the authority did not build the way it shod have given many things. i mean, the conxt in which we were operating was never ideal, continues to be not . i think we shouldave done better. we should have don betr but the key lesson out of that experice is unilateralism in the way that israel withdrew from gaza not the way to go. >> rose: well, you have respect of the israis and so does preside abbas have th respect of thesraelis. if they could choose people to negotiate with, they'd choos yoandim. >> you know the issue andhe allenge before all of us is acally to move fm saying things to actually doing them. >> rose: rig. >> and that's the strengthof our program. basically at it is that we are trying to when we s we need to comple the task of state building withithe coming o year this isour initiive. we need to be proactive

thiss our respoe to people's need for freed and independence. >> rose: so the granng of statlood will be anti-climatic. you will already have a functioning stat that's exact the idea. that's exactly what we're trying to do, to create enough positives on the groun consistent to statehd so that it will not be difficultfor anyone around the world looking at us to conclude tha we deed ha a state. >> rose: so the world would spond to that first ofll. >> that's what we hopewill ppen. >> rose: uted states, your arab neighbors andhe iaelis. >>absolutely. you noticehe strength of this whole thing is thatit's positive. it's aut building this. we're taing about building a state. buding the institutions of the state. building t a statehood. it's positive most constructi agenda and that's essential ally. rose: what brought y to this construct of at was necessary to happ? howdid you g to th place?

>> you kw, it i wi convictionhat under any condition, regardless of adversity, first you have too the best you can. conditions can b propitious an t soropitious, but, you know, that does not absolve you of the resnsibility of having to do the best you canunder any set ofishlg circumstances. it's a challenge and think that's the pcess byhich we're turning thi into a process that's inspiring. you rlly need to inspire people. once again, after four dades of oupation, long fo decades of occation, you need to really have more than the engineerinsense of the technocrat knowledge or the technical know how you need to spirit. fortunately wh we were talking about is a positive most constructive spirit. one that rlly actually is capable of winninghe support and sympathy of the internatiol community in furtherance of what we'r trying to accomplish.

>> rose: if you do that, are you convincethat you can win n th leadershipecessarily but those people who vod for hama and wh support has toreate some kind of unite effort? >> i believe so. an in fact, i believe that one of the reasonss that the political proce produced the outcome it did on e presiden going ck to 2006 is the ilure of the political process to produce an outceonsistent with freedom and indendence and all. it was 13 years after oslo the timehose electionshappened anthe fact that the political process had not fanned out in the way should haveor could have certainly contributes to that outme. success either isimportant therefore to change minds. but you aske me what really causesou to think this way. >> re: how do you get there? >> think it really isike

many things, other thisin life you really have to give it your alli believe, in whateve it isyou do. this is my attitu. you do t best you c given jectives that you state and make peopleaware of a then you go out and try to actually do those thingin the best way you know how. >> rose: and how n... let's takene first, the united states. apt fromhatever fluence, ing the word influen rather than force or pressure or anytng else, influee with israel to do the kinds of things you're sayin no intrusion, pull back, no growth of settlements,ow can the united stateselp the effort you have outlined? wh can the presint doho has some polical capital in e region, yes? >>olitically, think insist on accountability in thesense at, you know, people have to li up to the commients they make. i thk this makes sense. >> rose: how doeshe do it?

give the president some fed a vice. how do you do that: insist on accountability? what's theeverage and w do you exercise the leverage? >> power of persuasion is not a small thing in thi business. paicularly given the history ofhis conflict and wha it entails in terms the tragedy, loss ofife and destruction. i thin the prident has definitely e power and ability to b perasive on this. >> rose:o you think iaelis ha the ability to... andthe ll to listen andespond? if... go ahead. >> i think that's true. that is why i say accntability is important. i think there's nothing that can prove the process withhe kind ostrength that is neceary. thers nothing that can do this better than to s to the principles, to the parties in this conflict "hey, listen, this is what you set out to do, this

what you have agreed to do su a point in time. you really need to dohat." e key rson why myown estimation the processas not so far produced whait should have is because of cmitments re not fullled. you know, talk i.. i mean, on domestic politic scene in washington, it'saccountability, e importance of accotability. this applies equly to ternational policy. i think it's very important for thereto be much accountability in connectiowith this political press than has so far been exercised, expected, or demanded. i think there's power to thi and you go outo people and say "ts is what this is aut." the emergence of an independent, viablealestinian state living side by siden peace and harm fwhi the statef israel is not only palestinian influence it's also iselinfluenced but also, as esident obama had said, nationa interests tothe

united states. >> re: oh, it's clear interest of the uted states. >> that'what i saidnd i ink.... >> rose:very president of the united states has said tt, every one of them. >> but then we need to go out and y to make it happen. and sathe way too it, this is a politil process sfor there to bectually implentation. >> ros but it is said that the president is disappointed that arabeighbors have not ne all that they might have de since he's beenresident. >> wl, if you're rerring here to th arabeace initiative a what that framework is abt, most definitely arab natis have expressed the willingness, readines in the ctext of that initiative. >> rose: the turn of the borders, engage in norl relaonss bilateral relatio wi israel. >>es, absutely. and that dinitely is onhe ble and it has been since 2002

and provides a very good framework to really endthis conflict and provide spe for normal and peaceful coestence. >> rose: y have to be fst of all foced on palestinians as you ve outlined what you're doing. yove got make sure you do your thing because... ke care of what you know, have power over it before yo try topend you entire life fluencing those ings you might not he power over. havingaid that, what is it... what is you think aut the israeli psyche today, about ids like greater iael, ideas of a jewish state? and what does that do tohe diogue? >> you know, before we get to it i believe we all need to get both the israelis and the palestinians. the first line has tobe crossed an namely... a certain threold has to becrossed. line.

given the evoluon of this conflict andhere we are today prioro the genesis of it, each side has its own narrativef the genesis of the conflict, how it arted, the nature of it, et cetera. >> rose: who was there. >> uil and unless there is recognition that palestinians need to have tir own state and thathe thistate should happen, you kno this conflic is notreally going to e. >>ose: do you believe the majority of israeliitizens want that? >> you know, i believehats true. this is when the processegan. it was implicit in toslo accordthat the palestinian state was going to emerge. it was notxplicitly sted. you know, going back to the declaration of mutual regnition of 1993, itas not mentioned. itas presumed that therewas

going to be this pastinian stat for sure. in any event, the political proceswas not implicit about this, beginning ctainly in 2002 whent became a matter of international consensus tt an inpendent state of palestine has to emerge. >> re: what do u make of some of the cditions that prime minter benjamin netanyahu ha defined a essential to the creation of a palestinian ste. a disarmed palestinian state, the absence of... >> why not implement those condions and requiremes at we both have aeady agre to and committed to bere overading this further. i mean, what i have been talking about in terms of requirements and obligations th we accept... we palestinians accepted a the israeli accepted, the road map obligations. then we have to see tho implemented. anwhy dowentroduce into the

bate more elements of conditio. >> rose: but he's intruced it into the debate, has he not? >> well, 's trying to introduce them, t it doesn really mean that ts is acceptab. or it should be acceptable. i would say there are enough conditionss it is. let's seethose conditio implemented and let us make the stinction between what really needs to go int this process and outcomes. >> rose: there anytalk hind... in the corridors o thunited nations and wherever you ta... you're a voice that people listen to thathe israis may say, list, if you can do this, if y cano this, you'll g us mh, much closer. if you can sw the capacity to govern and create a ste before it becomes state, do youet any resonance fromhe isrli side not articulated publicly by em? >> to tell you the truth,n an portant sense, i'm driven by

this power to reall want too things and tostablish that we can do all of thesethings for all the right reons. at the sameime, it's very impoant for them to get recognions of the needs for pastinians to see deverables and not to continue be expeed to show things and demonstrat things. you know, we really need to begin see polital deverables associated with this efft. >> rose:o i hearouaying, ok, we're not trying to et any requiremts as israelis, we're trying to show who we are as a people. >> absolutely. and this is the best way.... >> rose: we're not satisfying themwe're satisfying ourselves. >> the bestssurance that you can ge to israelis is when they s that what you're doing... youe doing what you're doing because it is in your best interesand in the be interest of your own people this is the most fundamental source of reassurance or

asrance that can be provided. to expecyour neighbors to do things and to ctinue to demonstrate engaging and acting ofemonstration of good wil toward you can be reassuring for a while,but we need to think more aboutt and more deeply. you wi be... youare much more likely to bessured ifou come to the belief tha your nghbor is acting in his best interest and in doing so that happens to be consistent with your own interest. >> rose: exactly. >> that' whate'rerying to do. >>ose: but you do need donor nations anthe worldommunity to understand your economic viability. >> sure. and we doant to be economically viable. weave so far needed a lot of external internation support, including fromhis cotry which has contributed generously to the cae of the

institutional... institution builng. we nd to reay get to the point where we have gater reliance on our own resources. d that's the kind of vision we have forhe palestinian state. we can get there ifhe economy gins to function bter. >>ose: and on thatpoint, are thesraelis willing totep forward, in yo judgment, and do things i terms of release or nds or whatever itight be? >> it's n release of funds. r own funds under the trading arrangement that whave with israel, the onomic agreent that we have,srael collects tax revenues,alestinian ta revenues, points of entry. that mey flows now on a regularasis, it's palestinian money. now what we really want from the israelis in addion to taking those eps which pertain to the viabity of the polical process is to actually begin to take actions in a way tha would lead us-ta criticalmass of change on th ground. the removal of restctions.

not only physil but function restrictions. permanent requiremts or what have you. for them to be sensed that, you know, this isbout ending the occupation. meures are being...he cupation measures or the occupation regime is begning to be rolled back. you kn, weeally need to t tohis point and veryquickly. >> rose: thankou for coming. it is a fcinating time right now and to seeou again, it was a pleasure for us. we will talk tomorrow night with the fense minister of israel ud barack, but i thank you very much r coming and we continue the dialogue here and hopefully in the regions well. >> thank y so much. >>ose: salam fayyad the prime nister of the palestinian authority. coming up next, rich cohen has written a new book called "israeis real," with a ok at some new ideas with fm the israel perspective. but rst a look ahe this wee at conversations with two remarkle basketball players in separate intervis.

th are lebron jamesnd chris pull. oh, my goodness! what a look away by chris paul! >> rose: has every part of the dream been realized for you? >> i'm almosthere. >> rose: one big thing. >> one more drea >> rose: n.b.a. championship? >> absolutely. yogot it. rose: and lastear when you dn't get it,ow did that hit you? >> it hurt. any ti i set ou aoal and, you know, i feel like it's. i careach it and it's like right there and it doesn't happen, it hus. it hurts. >> ros but tell me me. >> we've got another sson and we're loing forward to thi e now. i've got a tmmate that'sgoing help me get there. >> rose: by the name of shaq? >>y the name of shaq. >> rose: what does he add? >> he adds a low pulse presence that i haven'tad. >> rose: so you go down t paint, you've got a place yo cadrop it off? >> absolutely. >> rose: and even if i don'to

down the paint, i can al give him the ball and let him go to work also. >> ros and you'reot woied out him being shed out of the way. >> if anyon c pushhaq out of the way, find him for me. (laughs) competition is amazing. people always ask me what is it like to ay in the n.b.a. and yoknow everyone always talks about how they love colge basketball because they feel guys in e n.b.a.ake nights off and things like that. and from playing in t n.b.a. i n speak from experience, the are no nights off. you' playing against the most finely tunedathletes in the world nighin and night t and if y don't bring your "a" game you will be embarrassed. you wille embarrassed, especially in oureague. i know ere's so man dierent things now in that when i first came in it was about how st can i do it? how fa can i do i now it's about how efficient can be. >> rose:ow efficient? >> yes. that's the difference that separates the greats is at my rookie year i may have taken five shotsnd made two. now you ed to make three or four out o five.

>> rose: and youe shootingur five out of five. >> exactly. extly. >> rose: rich cohen is here. he's a wrir, a contributing editor ativant fair andolling stes magazine. in 200, he publisd "swt and low" the story of his grandfather's invention of t artifial sweetenerweet 'n low. hinew book is called "israel is real" an obsessi quest to understand the jewish natio and its histor i'm pleed to have him here at this table. weome. >> thankou. >> rose: first let's start wh the title just because is provative. >> well, when i was a d there waa big craze f hebrew t-shirts in my circle anay, the north shore chicago. and t most famousaid coca-cola in hebrew cursive, e loed likeebrew and it was an american swear wordup side down and one were shirts that said "rael is real." it was a sple playon wor

but it had meaning. if you think about it,srael wa an idea from 2000 years from the deruction of the second temple until 1948 and in our own timet's become real again so it's said a bit miraculsly but it depends on taudience because for some people, of course, the israel is too real. i thought that phre on that t-shirt encapsulad the who story. >> rose: t fact that israel becomes geogrhy means what? has meant what? >> the early zionistsad the idea that they were gog to cure jews ofhe jewish conditio as ty saw in th europe andt had all these unintended consequences ich is when you had property, rht? you can lose property it's le that man with the house has house lose. and a lo ofjewishower through 2000 years came fromll the things that a lot of christian ideas come from which istatelessness, the meek shall inert earth, sort of being univsal and no particular, t a flag. >> rose: and an idea in your mind rather tn a...

>> yeah. yeah. and it's portable. so whever you he ten jews prayg or reading the tor you have jerusalem now you have jerusalem and you've t to protect . >> ros therefore protect it becomes the critical estion. >> right. and therefore you ve a nuclear israel whi, lik a hundred years agyou couldn't agine a nucleabomb, you codn't image a jewish stateith the most advced weapon it isworld has ever known. >> rose: how did that happen? >> well, i tnk basically... in a weird wa the idea of an arm wa really important to israel. itasn't just an ay to defend the nation. early on, the idea was tt that ws should fight to defend themselves. they were seen in eure as having a history in european ghtos and they bame sort of unphysical. you know, in their heads inead in theirodies. that was t idea. you can argue whetherr not it was true or not, but that was the ideaf the sort of diaspora jew who lived in exile. and the ear zionis very much nted jews who were physical, who defded themselves. so having an army becam more than just about defending the

country, it became a statement of the new kind of jew that was going toome out of the second world war. >> rose: when israel was created it was a triumph of zionism. >> yes. >> rose: whe is zionism today? >> well, it's a strange thing. the znists were kind of revolutionies and you can sort of think about it. theyere part of all the other revolutionary movements the 20th century that we know. expt i sueeded and itas basically goodnd now you have this state. but now so much effort wasut into building the stat now it'sort of like znism has kind of grown old, you know? and ung people don't want to be... consider themselves zionists, evenews. and they have to me from zionism to being israelis and th's a really tricky thingnd that's the thing peoe are having some troue with. so in a way it's kind of an older ideology that needs to reinnt itself. >> rose: now you have to critical elementaised by... certainly the most specific way by pme minister neten ya hue

that everybody has to recognize israel as a jewish state. >> right. >> rose: whereid that come ve? >> wl, it was always supposed to be a jewi state. >> rose: whyoes it all of a sudden have to become a negoating start >> bause one of the strategies of arabs who don't think israel should survive is to say okay, you're a democracy, let's have a democracy. you want to control the territory between the mediterranean sea and the jordan river, then let's have a vote. >> re: that's the one-state idea. >> yeah, that one state. let'have one man; one te. ultimately there a 20 or 30 years, jews will loseower, lose the army, lose the nucar weapons, los everything and it's t end of israe the problem is you n't really have a jewish democra. sohis is the fix that israelis are in, which is.... >> ros you can't have a jewis democracy meaning... >> you can have a jewish democry like americais a christn country, you know? most of the people are christian and it's got christn values. but we don say that it's a country for christians, you know?

weay it's a country for everody. >> rose: the an islamic democracy i that context? >> no. i don't think there is. and that's... the weird thing about isra is that israel es live by a different standard. i can't go to mecca, right? i'm not allowed because i'm jewish. and there's places i can ner be a citizen and if youon't want to in syria, you know and if yore a jewish egypt 50 years ago you're forc out of egypt and then you're probably in the ited states or israel. but the int is that iael has to live by a different standard, you know? beuse it's got an ideal and the ideal is kind of th golden rule. >> rose: how do you think the prent political dilemmas going to work self out? >> one state is just code word for no iael. you might call it israel, but it won'be israel as we knowit. >> rose: because e demograpcs are simply ainst it? >> exaly. and probably what would ppen in the long term what happed in lebanon. it woulde a nightmare okay? so basically what israel's in the process of doings having to undo, ihink, what the did

after 1967, which was take control of large arab population centers. and tt's what aeria sharon was doing. you know? arl sharon moved the israeli settlements t of gaza. ihink he next would ve moved th out of the west bank. >> rose: because he foresaw the dilemmas? >> i was there for the gaza withdrawal and i spoke to a lot of the settlers and they viewed sharon as atraitor. started the settlents now he turned on them. if you look at ariel sharon who's loved and vilified,e was a guy with onegoal and the goa was to prote israel and make sure israel prospered and h supported the settlemen as long as he tught they were keing israel safe. the moment he recoized the settlements werein fact, puttinisrael in danger he wanted to pull them back. >> rose: where was o nert that? spl >> he starts on the far right, which is is israel should be something ke it was in the bible. so of these people have a saying which is"both sides of the jorda river." there was a moment where israeli

tax collectors in the ancient worlwent to both sides the jord river and his family sort of a rht wingfamily. but i thinkhen you get in the position of pre minister or start geing near there a you look at the numbers and you look at the reality of t next 20 years you just have a change of art and you... cause it's not responsible t sort oflive in that dream that israel's going to bable to controlll this terriry. >> rose: so how faro you think benjamin netanhu will go in tes of undoing what haened afterhe '67 war. net you. >> i don know if it will be m or if it ll be somebody else. but he doesn't dot his government will fall and somebody else will dit and the qutions will it happen? anthe question is will it happen with the israelis taking the lead or doing it themselves or will itust... thealls art to cave in, which is something that aood leader's got to foresee genetion ahead. >> rose: famouslyhey said palestinians never ms an opportunity to miss an opportunity. n you make that argument about israel in some ways in terms of

missing anopportunity to he had some kd of peace tt would he madeit more secure than it is today he? >> yeah, look. there's a really fascinang things which the first israeli leads who are famous, mos diane, ben-gurion, these guys didn't want the wes bank and they didn't want jerusalem and those ho places, they thought that was the pasand that would drive iaelis crazy. anthe '6 war in which israel s proked into preempting, there was a moment whe they only took old jerulem at the very end of the war, the lt day. and there was peopl tha didn't want to do it. finally it was like yo can't be that close to e core of jewish history and not take tt final step. and in a way that was the moment 1967, which was the st euphoric moment, also theyould kernel of all the current prlems which is israeli were tempted by hisry into sort of losing sig of the reality, which is there's they're a small people that have a nation because their goals ve sort of be modest and the idea they were going to create a w kind

of nation and a new kind o history. my motr used to haven expression "ouof the frying pan into another kind of frying pan." and the idea was to sort of take jews out ofhe calon of europe and bring them the middle east-- at least the je that came fm europe. but stead they sort of went into this oer older history, which is theistory of the bible. and we know how tha ended. at ended with 2,000 years of no home. so that means the pragmatic early zionist leader to save israel from itself. that'shat i believe. >>ose: and do you believe that if sharohad stayed in wer and reasable health that was achievle? >> yeah. i think... i mean, there would have been a big fight. >>ose: he would have been epared to stand u to settlers and everything else a he would ha been able to say "i've been a warrior s therefore i undersnd national security and there have youave to trust me on this." >> right. therwas a "nixon goes to element" china... china element

for sure. sharon fout in the war of indepeence and he pulled the selements out of gaza. in his life... i thght it was fascinating that jews haven't lived that kind life sce biblal times. he had biblal life. he's stilllive, we forget that. but he had authority and he was a man of gre accomplishmen and did ally bad ings, too. he was almost like a figure o of theible. and he had the authority.. >> rose: lebanon primarily? >> yeah, i'm thinkg of lebanon. and he iented a lot of the israeli way fighting terrorism ich you can argue that was successful but it was succsful but created longer-term problems. >> rose: sohere do you think this is... mean how do you think this will... in ur litime? >> i thi... see, one thing people think abo me is that i'm too pessimistic. i'm basically a young guy and they don like the idea that a young guy th obviously loves israel a great deal, has family, pessimistic. >> rose: about >> the future of israel.

but i'mot reall pessimistic. but i think o thing the early zionists had is they were a it is a trow fists. believed the wst was poible. that made them fesee the holoust when no one else did. israelis he to look at the situation realistically and sort of say what's t worst situatio and the worst situaon is for israel is no israel. and how do we avoid the? the way to avoid that, i thin is to dentangle the iaeli pop nation the mlim populati. the jewish population a sort of separate themselves an that's what shar was doing. andhe prlem now is leader stro enough to face up politically to his o situation in israel with the settlers and everything. because ultimately i'm n the first persono say it, t settlements endangersrael and corre israel and make israel lose the original mission which was never about la, you kno, was about people and about saving jews and letting jews have full lives, not about holdinancient holy place rose: and do you believe that

the palesniansf they were offered at opptunity would be satisfi? >> no. i really don. rose: so you're going to live for... regardless of the selement, regardss of whater solution or settlemt there is, you will continue to have the aspirions sometimes expressed by hamas? >> right. but i believe the ia that if you could have a generion two wi theower mperature, with less war wh less killing on both sides.... >> rose: and economic poibilities on both sides. >> yes, you can have a generation of people beuse i do sort of think that people have more in common than they do different. >> rose: there some model in south africa or ireland to... >> don't know. i think it's ique situation because u have two people where bothides are wrg and both sides are right. you know, u have equal claims. and the idea is, you know, is... is it going to be like... are we going back to thancient world here? >> ros if you put the kind of settment that was essentially

at thabo coming out of camp david, wld the majority of raeli citens-- in your judgment-- support it? >> yes, absolutel i mean, israel has a messedu political system wreby its proporonal representation. which means that every governmentas to build a government out of all these ttle coalitions. you have these parties of just settlers for example, with one issue. and they couldull out of the government at any time and collapse the governmen and it's.. they've ted to fix it befor but it'sparalysis d it's caing them a lot of oblems. >> rose: what's you asssment of benjami netanyahu. people >> peoe fget that benjamin netanyahu it was guy who did the deal on hebron, for example and net you. and hebron... ariel sharon said if we had a normal country you wouldn't get in a car when you landed in tel aviv and drive to jerusalem, you get a r and drive to hron because that' the fit ancient r... temple

of the jewish pele. i think benjamin netanyu is a politici and basically pragmatic and he loves his country anhe wants to sort of stay on toppolitically but do what's right and i think he will ultimately do what's right to protect israel and ifhe doesn't his gornment will colpse. rose: do you think that includes bomng iran? >> i d't know. they're noisy about it that it makes me think they're not going do it. it's very unisraeli to be so noisy about somethg. you know, is like in iraq it just kd of... you turned on the t.v. and they hadombed the nuclear reactor and enteb when they rescued israeli hosges in entebbe. it all very quiet. the idea omaking a lot of noise means they don't want miliry, they want somebody elseo come in ando i want diplomatally. >> rose: has anything in writi this book, thinking about ese issues caused you to change anything in terms of your understanding or your own meaning? >> completely. i was just talkingbout. is it's like i didn't go... if

you uld have told me t years ago that i'd write a book with these sortf conusions i wouldn't have bieved it, you kn? busort of going to israel, meetg with the generals d th politicians who really we responsible for the victories in '67 and the yom kippur war, meetinwith these guysnd hearing their fears d their woies, meeting with the.... >> rose: so what you've all been exprsing is what they reflected to you? >> right. and they feel... andhese are the guys, they're heroes. for jews they're heroe these are the guys if you tal to them...hey were very depressed when i spokeo them because they felt th israel had made a mistake after 1967, which is it was like the classic act of hubris where they felt they could have everything. they felt they could have jewish democracy and they could also have hebron. and basicly they couldt have th. >> rose: that's whatsome say about the invasn of iraq. >> of iraq? rose: yeah. >> yea >> rose:hat you can have everything. you know, you cano this and create a mod democra in the heart of the mide east and all

of thoseinds ofhings. >> rose: i remember speing to an israeli fend of minewho s a commando at entebbe and i talked to him about iraq before and i said... he said "it will be easy it's bomb, bom, bomb, go, , go, it's a mission and then you'r snuck lebanon f ve years." >> rose: (laughs) smart guy. >> yes. >> rose: entebbehere was benjamin netanyahu brother was lled. >> that's ght. >> rose: so you talk to these guys whohey're in major leadership positions durg '67. >>ight. >> rose: a they said to you with t we are facing an alternative that will do great danger to the idea of israel. >> right. >> rose:nd in order to save that, we haveto undo wha we did after '67. >> right. >> rose: that'she conusion. >> that's what they felt. >> rose: and that's the central point of this book? >> yeah. think so, yeah. and i think there sort of needs to bsort of a moment of reckoning for isrlis and regardless of what the inntions of palestinians are-- which, younow, islways...

the palestinians ways use the israelis as an euse and the israelis always use e palestinians as an excuse. it doesn matter what their intentions are because what's ultimately at stakis israel's fure and they've got to take care of it themselves. rose: do you believe that those same people believe tt thgs are being cared out in the name of security that they believe is doing some damage to... i don't think >> i don't think ty think it's security. you know, wh you look at the settlements, forxample, you have lot ofsoldiers protectingery few people and inangerousositions. ariel sharon started t selements really for military reasons, not for ideological reasons. he naughyou put settlents.... >> rose:ell, that's security, that national security. >> right. but overime it's likeort of the ideology, the rigious ionists. the erlly zionists re secular, they were noteligious. and religion zionists cam in d attached value t the place slarn... i mean he talked out the place but it s really about the mitary, it was about tckening israel in

its skinny places and putting jewi towns on roads whi israel had been invaded. bu suddenly where you he an issue wheryou have 2000 missle in lebanonnd those roa don't matter anymore andecurity not helpful. >> rose: what where do you think rabin would have been if he had... not in terms of position but in tms of the ideas you would have expressed? >> ihey bean had the same realization early, you know, which is why he was great leer. i think he had it ten years eaier than sharon, which is sort of israel has to act now to sere its own future and its own future can not be ruling the paleinians. and the oblem is there's some group of palestinns that don't want peace with israe for whatever reason. one of which ishey might prefer a one-sta solution in which case the thiñi to do is just wait. >> rose: so they don't want a soluon, then? >> they want another solutn. arafatalled it the human bb, you ow? >> rose: that's demographi. >> degraphic bomb. which ise'll just outprocreate them and it ll take care of

itself. >> rose: there's also this. you've said t following, that you like ts. if you have sapling in your hand and ty say to y the messiah has come, finish plting the sapling and then ne messiah. >> iike that first o all a somebody newly movedto the country. so had taken an interest in gardening but al the whole idea whi is one thi about jewish histo is people s ll, the guy in times square says the world icoming to an end and jews realize the world has come to an end many, many times before and t problem is the world after it ends kps gog and you have to figure out how to live in it. >> rose: israel is real, an obsessive... you cho that word too? >> ielt like writing the bk was obsessive and i felt it was like a little bit of gonzo history of israel. >> rose: "on obsessive quest to understand the jewishation d its history." rich cohen, thank you. >> thank you. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time.

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