>> re: welcome to the broadcast. tonigh a conversation with the prime minister of the palestinian ahority salam fayyad one of the principal plays in any effort to fi peace inhe middle east. >>e undertook to do certain things the israelis undertook to do certainhings. it's abt time that we staed to see deliverables. we tried tdo the best we could ceainly the beginng of 2007 and have ce a long way in implementing our obligations which we r.o. around enhancing our capaci toovern ourselves in all areas of governance including ecial security. on the iseli side i regreat

to tl you that none o those obligations have bee fulfilled beginning with eeze of settlements, but ao iluding such important tions like stopping incursions on areas unr our ntrol it is vy important for us to begin to see action. >>ose: we contin this evening withich cohen and his new book "israel is real. israelis now ve to look the situation realisticall a rt of say whas the wor situatn? and the wor situation is for israels no israel. and how do we avoid tt? the way to avoid that i think is to disentangle the israeli population from the musli population. e jewish population and sort of separate themselves and that'shat sharon was doing. and the problem n i a leader strong enough to fac up plitl to his o situation with the settlers and everythg because ultitely-- i'm not the first foreign say it-- the settlements

endanger israel and corrode israel and make israel lose the original mission, whicwas ver about land you know? it wasbout people. and abou savingews and leing jews have full lives. >> rose: a programming note our convsation with lebron james and christopher bellman will be seen aa later tim this week. toght, palestine and israel loing for new ideas. ne. captioning sponsor by rose comnications

fr our studios in new york city, this is chare rose. >> rose: salamayyad is here. head been prime minister of the palestinian national authority since 2007. foerly a respected econist at the world bank 's fused on delivering security and services to palestinians. he hasbrought international standardto public finan and the we bank has seen impressi economic growth accordin to the i.m.f. it economy could grow by 7% this year twopercentage points higher than expted. he'slso improve law forcement and security leadinto the liftingf some israeli check points. the "new york mes" columnist inom frdman has called his pragmatic approach the st exciting new ia in ara gornance ever. the prime minist is in new yo with the palestinian deletion for the opening of the uned nations general assemb.

earlier today,resident obama met privately wit israeli pri ministerenjamin nanyahu and palestinian presint mahmoud abbas. beforee went into the-way talks th the twoeaders he spoke stern about the urgency of resuming pce tas. >> simply put, it is past time to talk aut stting negotiatns, it is time to move forward. it isime to show the flexibility and common sens and sense of compromise that's necessary to achiev our goals. permant status of negotiations must begin and begin soon. and re importantly, must give thoseegotiationshe opportunity to cceed. and so my messageo these two leaders is clear: despite all the obstacles despite all t history, despitell the mistst, we have to find a way forward. we have to summo the will to break the deadloc that has trapped generations of israelis and palestinians in an endless cycle of confct and suffering.

we cannotontinue the se pattern of taking tentative steps forwardnd then steppg back. >> rose: i pleased to ha prime minier fayyad back on thisrogram. welcome. >> pleasure. >> rose: i appreciate yobeing here very ch. and you say to the president of the unit states? >> i think he has it right. he said two things in this clip and, by t way i ank you for giving me the oortunity to see what he sd about us because i was in another meeting at the time, the trilateral meeting was taking place. he saithat negotiions must begin, sething whiche very much need see hapn. but he also said we must give th maximum chance for success. you know focusing on the quirements for successto ensure that actual those negotiations would deliver. they would lead to the deliverables that we he been looking fo which is to end the occupation andave an indendent viable palestinian

state emee aloside the state of israel. >> rose: what is the power and the levege thispresidentas? >> we need that polical process for sure whichthe president of the united states was just talkin about. w... but in addition we need to actually get on with it. not only in nnection with the litical process the negotiatio the discussio between the sides but also g on with it in the sense of ilding the states of...the initutions of the state. coluding or completing the ta of instition building capacity building preparaon for statehood. thats importt under any scenario. that's how i look at this. regardless of how the political process fares-- mething which thpresident was just talkin about-- we definitely nee to... wealestinians need to do the best we cato create the institutions othe state. i happen to believe that

statehd being an objecve of the political proces getng ere, the process of tting there would reinforce the political process the prident watalking about. i tnk both a required. weeed the political process to produce... to ing about an end toccupation. we need to make ximum effort to build our owntate in a way that inforces the chances of the political process devering at it has to deliver. >> rose: okay. whstands in the way o that? well i g back to the requiremts for ccess. elements that reallyave to be foe t focus any serious effort to get tt political process starte in a credible way. requirements that haveeen long standing for w too long. obligaons that both sides-- the palestinian side d the iseli side--have taken up ing back to 2003.

the conte of the road ma to peace. important documen wre we dertook to do certain things, the israelis undertook to d certain things. it's about time that we started to see deliverables. tried to do the best weould certainly th beginning of 2007. d we have come along way in implementing o obligations whic we involve aroun enhancing our capity to govern ourselves inll areas of governce including special security. the israeliide i regret to tell you, that none of those obligations haveeenulfilled. beginnin with the freeze of settlementactivity but also including such imptant actions like commitments le stopping military incursio onreas under our control. it is very important f us to begi to see action consistent with the need to see those only gigss fulfilled.

they'rthere for reason because they actuallyre relatedin a direct try the objective, to the deliverable of the pitical processwhich is ending the occupaon having an independt, viable palestini state. it is obvious as to why that has to be a freeze a palestinian state is going to emergeprecisely where settlents continue to be built and settlementcontinue to expand. so it stds to reasonhat there has to b a stopo all of this. >> rose: two questions then. why did the israelis dot? they clearly want... or do you believe ey clearly wantto see a succeful palestian ste that will be able to lin peace side by de with israel? do you think that's whathey nt? >> that has.. that's what needs to happen. and i personally do not reay spend too much timespeculating intention

i take at fa value that which is said. the's a requirement that you know, in order to bring this conflict to an end that is a matter ofnternational consensus. another state ha to emerge. the ate of israel has been there since 1948. anotr state has to emerge alonide the state of iael in orr to bring this conflict to an end. in order for there to be lasting ttlements, and a fai one. that's t state of palestine. that's international consens this issue. what is really important is to get on with it. the government o israel has stated that it accepts that notion. the current government. what iseally importants to actually establish that the government oisrael means with what it says wn it actually said that they're cmitted to two ste solution. >> rose: so what wod be evidence of thatforou? >> presely what i said. >> rose: stop settlements.

>> begin to implement those obligations thatare... by the y. >> rose: but l me just tick th off for you or you tick them off f me. stopettlement growth wheer it's existing grow of existing selements or new settlements. stop it an do not... >> that's kach lullly the language incded in the road map. that's ecisely what it id. >> rose: two... >> sto incursions into areas under palestiniacontrol. by that i mean tsraeli army into where our security forces have deplod. >> rose: how oftedoes that happen? >> i have to say less ofte than it used to these days, which is good. that's progress. buwhat is important for the to be complete stoppage. that's the wayt used to be up until spring of 2000 t. sinc the the israel army has been going into palestinian authory controlled areas. th has got to stop. >> rose: why has it been less in your judent? >> security nditions there's no questn, have improved du

what we have been ableo do deploying our forces i those area so mh so that acally there's a great deal ofcalm. what is the real importance now is if there are thereo be compte stop to this military activity by the israelis. actually, unow continuation by israeli forces at a time when we have eablished and demonstrated capity in ways that hav established law and order cannot butndermine our effort. i'm not really here talking about the operation of risk associatedith the israeli army going into our aas but i'm talking about e loss of credibily. what happens wle we are undermining our ownredibility the eyes of our own public when they se thatn ourwn esence, our own areas israelis.. >> rose: you're ying iselis ke incursionsnto palestian territory.

itrings question about you authority d power th your own people? >> absolutely. becaus you know remember, what this is about what it should b aboutisan exercise where we summon all the powers have in a positiv construcve way creating positive facts on e ground including demonstrating capacit to govern ourselves proving the most basic services to o people: security and l and order. it is impornt for this to be d to be seen as an effort... as part of an effort to end the occupationnot making it work better oro beautify it. so consistent with that palestiniapeople need toegin to see action byhe government of iael consistent with roing back the occupation on the way to ending i if notwithstding all that we have been able to do sin 2007 there is no significant change insraeliehavior people will going to begin to wonder-- an

th reason-- as to whatthis is about. rose: and if theyo, are they mor likely to sten to hamas than.. >> yeah, unss people begin to see the political process deliver, you're aolutely right. for sure. >> rose: speak to that. is there a compition in a... beyond even that we know forhe hearts and minds palestinians between fatah and the lestinian authority and hamas? >>here is, and we are in that sense no diffent from any other nation where the is political uralism and coetition. and, you know, the idea re is to really go out d do the best we can delivering to the people the hope that they will s what you do not only as a program of tion but in terms of actions in terms of livery, in terms of achievents. they will ehat response to thr needs. >> rose: and that's the reas yoput such emphasis on governance in rt? >> absoluty. >> rose: show to the pestinian people we can haveithin our

own conol... >> you know, thisis very important, what we are trying to do. this is... once ain, thisis about ending the occupation. this is about freom for our pele. it is a major underood taking major. but it ruires more tn anything else the will to succeed. you know the belf that we can accomplish things. more than four decades of occupati do bad tngs to you includg loss of faith in your capacity to do things. by virtue of what we have bn able to accompsh since 2007 in additioto having succeede in deliverin basic services our people think sething se happened that is very importt, and that is a sense of empowerment that we indeed, can do these things. that's hugely iortant and i think it's a politicallement of the overall appach to governments, to statbuilding

that i believe when we get t ere we're going it will be because ts approach to vernance and to getting there ll have succeed. rose: so if the israelis come to youwhile there here in the united natio and prime mister net you says to... benjamin netanhu says to all in the room,e ss "we're prared to move forwa in this t show me that you can in a senseexercise authority within your ownommunity because whe we withdrew from gaza before s prime minister look wh haened." part of the reason wh happened in ga happened.... >>ose: you couldn't control ga. >> yeah. part of the reason why that haened-- and this is really not to absolve all sen of responsility for what happens because after all, y know what hapned in ga represents failure onhe part of the authority, there's no question about that.

but part of the rson why it happened is, younow the nature, the men ntz withdrawing om gaza it happened unilatelly. it was called by the israeli government yuan laal rat sengagement. theyid it withoutengagement th us. en that happens it does not really lve the palestinian authority... it did not ave th palestinian ahority.... >> rose: it was not a negotiated procs. it was just "we're out here." >> they pretty much left and threw the keyver the fence more or less. you know "we'll do things this way." you do not lve the palesnian authity with much inhe eyes of the people for havingeally getting the point to get the israelis to thdraw from gaza. so th authority did not g the lift out of this that w necessary politically. but, you know i'm not soone will shy ever awa from

admiing our ownailures. you know the authorityid not build the way ithould have given many this. i mean, theontext in which we were operating was never ideal continues to be t so. i think we shld have done bett. we should haveoneetter but the key lesn out of at exrience i unilateralism in the way that israel withdrew from ga is not the w to go. >> rose: wel, you have to respect of the raelis and so does predent abbas havethe respect of the israelis. if they could choose peoe to negotiate with they'd cose you and him. >> you kw the issuend the challenge before all of us is actually to move from saying thingso actuay doin them. >> rose:ight. >> and that's the strength of our progm. basicay what it is that we are tryingo do when we say we nee to cplete the task of state building whin the coming two ars. thiss our itiative. we need to be proacve. is is our respons to people's

need for freedom and independence. >> rose: so the granti of state od will be anti-climatic. u will already have a functioning state. >> that's exactly the idea. that's exactly what we're trying to do, to create enough positives on the ground consistent to statehooso that it will not be difficult r anyone around the world looking at us to conclude that we ined have state. rose: so the world would reond to that first of a. >> that's at we hope will happen. >> ros united states your ar neighbors and the israelis. >> absolutely. you noce the strength of this whole thing is that it's positive it about buildinghings. we'rtalking about building a state. building the institutions of the state. buildi to a statehood. it's a positiveost constructive agenda and that's essential rely. >>ose: what brought you to this construct of wh was necessary to happen how d you get to that place? >> you kno it is with

conviction tt underny ndition, regardlessf adversity, first you have to d the best you can. conditions can be propitious and noso ppitious, but you know, that does not absolve you of the respoibility of having to do theest you can der any set of shlg circumstances. it's a challenge. and i ink that's the pross by wch we're turning this into a processthat's inspiring. you reay need to inspire people. once again after four deces of occation a long four decades of occupion, you need to really have more than the engineering nse of the technocraticnowledge or the technical know how. u need to spirit. fortunately whate were talking about is a positive most constructive spirit. one that reayctually is pable of winning t support and sympathy of the internationacommunity in furtherance of what we'rerying to accomplish. rose: if you do that are you

convinced at you can win not the leadership nessarily but those people who votefor hamas and who support hama to cate some kind of uted effort? >> i believe so. and, in fact i believe that one of the reasonss that th political pcess produced the outcome it did on the presency gog back to 26 is the failure of the politil process to produce tcome consistent with freedom and dependence and a. it was3 yea after oslo the me those elections happened and the fact that t political process had not fanned out in the y it should have or could have certainly contributes to thatutcome. success either is important therefore to change minds but you askede what really causes y to think this way. >> ros how do you get there? >> ihink it really is le many things other thing

life you really have to give it your all, believe, in whatever it is u do. this is my attitude you do theest you can given obctives thatyou state and make people are of and then you go out and try toctually do those things the best way you know how. >>rose: and how ca.. let's take o first, the united states. apar from wtever inuence, usg the word influence rather than force or pressure or anythi else, influenc with israel to do theinds of things you're saying, no intrusion pull back, no growth of settlements, h can the united states hp the effort you have outlined? whatan the preside do w has some polital capital in th region yes? >> pitically i think insist on accountabilityn the nse th you know people have to livep to the commitmts they ke. i thinthis makes sense. >> rose: how does do it? give the president some fre a

vice. how do you do that:nsist on accountability? what's the lerage and ho do you exercisehe leverage? >>power of persuasion isot a small thing in this business. partularly given the history of ts conflict and what it entails in terms of the tragedy ss of le and destruction. i think the present has finitely th power a abily beersuasive on this. >> re: do you think israelis have the ability to... and the will to listen and respond? if... go ahead. >> i tnk that' true. that is wh i sayccountability is important. i think there's nothi that can ovide the process with the ki of strength that is cessary. ere's nothing that can do this better than say to the principles, to t parties in this conflt "hey listen, th is wt you s out to do, this is what you have agreed to do at

such a point in te. you really nd to do that." the key reason why my own estimation t process has not so far producedhat it should have is becse of commitments were notulfilled. you know talk is... i mean on domestic polical scene in washington it's accountability the importance of countability. th appliesqually to international policy. i thin it's very important for there to be much accountability in conneion with this politicaprocess than has so far been exercised expected or demanded. i think there's power tohis. and you gout to people anday "this is what this is about." th emergence ofn independent vile palestinian state living side by de in peace and harm fwhi the ste of israel is not only palestinian influced. it's alsoisraeli influenced but alsos president obama had said natnal interests to the

unit states. rose: oh it' clear intest of t united states. >> tt's what i sa and i think.... >> re: every president of the united states has sa that every one of them. >> but then we need to go out d try to make it happen. ansay the way to do it, this is a potical proces sr there be actually plementation. >>ose: but it is said tha the president is disappointed that ab neighbors have not done all that they might have done since he bn president. >> well, if you'rreferring here tthe arab peace initiati and what that framework isabout most definitely arab tions have expressed the willingness readiness inhe conxt of that initiative. >> rose: the rern of the borders, engage in norma relatiss bilateral relations withsrael. >> y absolely. d that defitely is on t tae and it has been since 2002 and provides a very good

framework to really end is conflict androvide sco for normal and peaceful coexience. >> rose: you have to be fir of allocused on palestinis as u have outlined wha you're dog. you've got make sure y do yo thing because.. take care of what you know, haveower over it before you try to snd your entire life inuencing those thgs you might not hav power over. having sd that what is it... what is it you think abo the israeli psyche today about idealike greater isrl ideas of a jewish state? d what does that do to t dialue? >> you knowefore we get to it i believe well need to get both the israelis and the palestinians. the first line has to crossed andnamely... a certain threshd has to be ossed. a line.

given the evoluti of this conflict and wre we are today prior t the genesis of it each side has its own narrative o thegenesis of the conflict, how it stted, theature of it, et cetera. rose: who was there. >> unt and unless there is a recognition that palestinians need to have thewn state and that t this ste should happen, you know, this conflict is not ally going to end >> re: do you believe the majority ofsraeli citizens want tha? >> you kno, i belie that is true this is when the process began. it was implicit in the oslo acrds that the palestinian state was going to emerge. it was not explicitlystated. you know going back to the declaration of mutual recognition of 1993 it was not mentioned. it was presumed that there was going to be thispalestinian

ate, for sure. in any event the political press was not implicit aut this beginning certainly in 2002 wn it became a matter of ternational consensus tha an indendent state of palestine has to emerge. >> ros what do yo makef some of the contions that prime minisrenjamin netanyahu has defined as essential to the creation of a palestinian stat a disarmed palestiniantate the absence of... >> whyot implement those conditns and requirement th we both have alrdy agreed to and committed to befo overloing this further. i mean what i have been talking about in terms of requirements and obligations that we cept... we palestinians accepted andhe israeli cepted, the road map obligations. then we have to see those implemented. and y do iroduce into the dete more elements of

conditions. >> rose: but he's introded it into the debate, has he not? >> well, he trying to introduce them, bu it doesn't really mean that thi is acceptable it should be acceptable. i would say there are enough conditions ait is. let's see ose conditions implemented and let us make the diinction between what really needs to go into thisrocess and outcomes. rose: there any lk bend... in the corridors of the ited nations and wherever you talk. you're a voice that people liste to that the raelis may say sten if you can do this, you can do this you'll get us much much closer. if you c show the capacity to govern and create state before it becomes a state do you get any resonance from thesraeli side n articulated publicly by them? >> to tell you the truth in an important sense i'm driven by

this pow to rlly want to do things and t establish that we can do all of these things for all the righreasons. at the se time it's very portant fo them to get regnitions of the needs for palestinians to sdeliverables and not to contie to be pected to show things and demonsate things. you know we really need to ben to see pitical deliverables associated with this effor. >> rose: d i hear y sing, lo we're notrying to me y requiremen as israelis we're trying to show who we are as a people. absolutely. d this is the best way.... >> rose: we're not satisfying them, 'reatisfying ourselves. >> the best aurance that you can givto israelis is when they seehat what you're doing... you'rdoing what u're doing because its in your best interest d in the bestnterest of your own people this is the most fundamental source of reassurance or

assunce that can be provided. to expect ur neighbors too things and to connue to demonstratengaging and acting of donstration of good will toward you can be reassuring for a while t we need to think more about iand more deeply. you will be... you e much more likely to be aured if y come to the belief that your neibor is acting in his best interest and in doing so that happens to be consistent with yourown interest. rose: exactly. >> that's what wre trying to do. >> rose: but you do need donor nationand the world community to understand your economic ability. >> sure. and we do wt to be economicallyiable. we he so far needed alot of external internationalupport including from ts couny which has contributed generously to the caus of the

institutional... institution buildi. we neeto reallget to the point where we have greer reliance on our own resources. anthat's the kindof vision we have for t palestinian state. we can get there if t economy bens to function betr. >> re: and on that int, are the iaelis willing to sp forward, in yourudgment and do things in terms of release or fus orwhatever it mht be? >> it's not release of funds. ouown funds under thetrading arrangement that we ve with israel, the ecomic agreeme that we have iaelollects tax revenues pestinian tax revenues points of entry. that mon flows now on a regular bis it's palestinian money. now what we really want from the israelis in additi to taking those sts which pertain to the viabily of the polital process is to actually begin to take actions in a way that would ad us-to- critical ss of change on the ground. the removal of restriions. not only physica but functional

restrictions. permanent requiremen or what have you. for them to be sensed tt you know, this i about endin the occupati. measures are bein.. the occupation measures the occupation regime is beginng to be rolled back. you knowwe rlly need to ge to ts pointnd very ickly. >> rose: thank y for coming. it is a fasnating time right now and to see y again, itas pleasure fors. we will talk tomorrow night with the dense minister of israel eh barack, but i thank you very much fo coming and we continue the dialogue here and hopefully in the region a well. >> thank youo much >> re: salam fayyad the prime mister of the palestinian authority. ming up nextich cohen has written a new book called "israel real,"with a lo at some new ideas with fro the israeli perspective. but fit a look ahead this week conversations with two remarkab basketball players in sepate interview

they areebron james a chris pull. >>h, my goodness! what a look away by cis paul! >> rose: has every part of t dream been realized f you? >> i'm alst there. >> rose: oneig thing. >> one more eam. >> rose:n.b.a. championship? >> absolutely. you t it. >>ose: andlast year whenou didn't get it how did that hit you? >> it hurt. antime i setout a goalnd you know i feel like is... i can reach it and it'slike right there and itoesn't happen it hurt it hurts. >> rose: but tell me mor >> we've got another sean and we're lookg forward to this onnow. i've got a teaate that's ing toelp meet there. >> rose: by the nam of shaq? >> by the name of shaq. >> rose: what do he add? >> he adds a low pulse presence that i haven't h. rose: so you go down the paint, you've got a place you can op it off? >> absolutely. >> rose: and even if i don't g

down the paint, i can also give him the ball and let him go to work also. >> rose:nd you're n worrd abt him being pushed out of the way. >> if aone can push shaq out of the way find him for me. (laughs) >> competition is amazing. ople always ask mehat is it like to pl in the n.b.a. and you ow everyone always talks about how they love colle sketball because they feel guys in th n.b.a. te nights off and things like that. d from playing in the n.b.a. i caspeak from experience, there are no nights off. you'relaying againsthe most nely tuned hletes in the world night and night ouand if youon't bring youra" game you will bembarrassed. you will b embarrassed especially in our lgue. so know there's soany different things now in that when i first ce in it was about w fast can io it? how fastan i do it? now it's about how efficient can i . >> rose: h efficient? >> yes. that's the difference that separates the greats is th my rookie year i may have taken five shots a made two. now you ne to makehree or four out of five. >> rose: and you'r shooting f

five out of five. >>xactly. exacy. rose: rich cohen is here. he's a write a contributing editor ativanty fair and rling ston magazine. in 2006 he publishe "swee and low" the story of his andfather's invention of the artifici sweetener set 'n low. his w book is called "israel is real" an obssive quest to understand the jewish nion and its hiory. i'mleased to have him here at this table. welcome. >> thank you. >> rose: first let's star with the title just because it's ovocative. >> wel when i was a kid there was a big craze for hebrew t-shir in my circlanyway the north shore chicago. and the most famous sd coca-cola in hebrew in cursive e look like hrew and it was an american swear word side downand one were shirts that said "isel is real." it was a sime play words

but it hadeaning. if you think about it iael was an idea from 2000 years from the destction of the second temple until1948 and in our own time is become real again so it's said a bit miraculouy but it depends on the dience because for some people, of course the israel is too real. i thought that phras on that t-shirt encapsulate the whole ory. >> rose: theact that israel becomes geograp means what? has meant what? >> thearly zionists h the idea that they were goin to cure jews of t jewish condition as the saw in the europe and ihad all these unintended consequences whh is when you had property rig? u can lose property. it's likthat man with the house has a use to lose. and a lot of wish per through 2000years came from a e things that aot of ristian ideas come fromhich is stelessness theeek shall intht earth, sort of being univerl and not particular noa flag. >> rose: and an idea in your mind rather tha a... >> yeah.

yeah. and it's portable. so whener you hav ten jews prayinor readingthe torahou have jerusalem now youhave jerusalem and you've go to protect it >> rose: therefore protectit becomes e critical question. >> right and therefore u have a nuclear israelhichike a hundred yearago you couldt imagine a nuear bomb, youcouldn't agine a jewish ste with the mostdvanced weapon it is world has ever known. >> rose: how d that happe >> well, i think basically... i a weirway, the idea of anrmy was really importt to israel. it wasn't just an army to defen the nation. early on, the idea was that that jews should fight t defend themselves. they were seen inurope as having a hisry in european ghettos and they bece sort of unphysical. you know, in their heads instd ofn their bies. that was thedea. you can argue whether onot it was true or not but that was the idea othe sort of diaspora jew who lived in exile. and the early zionist very much waed jews who were physical, who defend themselves. so having an army became more than just about defending the country, it became a statement

of the new kind of jew that was going to ce out of the second world war. >> rose: when israel was created was a triumph of zionism. >> yes. >> rose: wheres zionism today? >> well, it's a strange thing. the ziosts were kind of revolutionars and you can sort of think about it. they we partf all the other revolutionary movements of the 20th century that we know. exce it succded and it w basically good a now you have this state. but now so much effort was p into building the state, now it's st of like ziosm has kind of grown old you know? and yog people don't want to be... consider themselves zionists, even js. and they have to mov from onism to being israelis and that a really tricky thing a that's the thing peoplare ving some troublwith. so in a way it's kindof an older ideology that needs to reinve itself. >> rose: now you have to critical element rsed by... certainly the mostpecific way by pri minister neten ya hue

that everybody has to recognize israel as a jewishtate. >> right. >> rose: where d that come ha? >> wel it was always supposed to be a jewishtate. >> rose: why ds it all of a sudden have to become a negotiing start >> becse one of the strategies of arabs who don't think israel should survive is to saykay you're aemocracy let's have a democracy. ifou want to control the territory between the mediterranean sea and the jordan river, then let's have a vote. >> ros that's the one-state idea. >> yeah, that's one state. let's ve one man; one vo. timately there are 20 or 30 years, jews will lose per lose the armyose the nucle weapons, lose everything and it's thend of israel. e problemis you cateally have a jewish democracy so ts is the fix that israelis are in, which is.... >> rose:ou can't have a jewish democracy meaning... >> you can have a jewish democrac like america a christiacountry, you know? most of the peoplere christian d it's got christia values. but we don'tay that it's a country for christians, you know? we s it's a country for

everyby. >> rose: theren islamic democracy in that context? >> no. i don't think there is. and that's... the weird thing about israels that israel do live by a differenttandard. i can't go to mecca, right? i'm not allowed because i'm jewish. and there's places i can neve be a citizen and if you d't want to be in syriaou know and if you' a jewish n egypt 50 years ago you're forced out of egypt and then you're probably in the uned states or rael. but the pot is that isrl has to live by a different standard you know? becae it's got an ideal and the ideal is kind of the golden rule. >> rose: how doyou think the prest political dilemma i going to work itlf out? >> one state is just code word for no isrl. you might call it israel but it won't israel as weknow it. >> rose: because th demographi are simply agast it? >> exact. and probably what would haen inhe long term ishat happen in lebanon. it would ba nightmare okay? so basically what israel's in the process of doing i having to undo, i tnk what they did

after 1967, which was take control of largearabopulation nters. and thas what aerial sharon was doing. you know? ariesharon moved the israeli settlements ouof gaza. i tnk he next would ha moved themut of the west bank. >> rose: because he foresawthe dilemmas? >> i was thereor theaza withdrawal and i spoke to a lot of the settlers and theyiewed aron as a aitor. hetarted the settlemes now he turned on them. if you look at ariel sharon who's loved and vilified h was a guy with one al and the goal was to protectsrael and make sure israel prospered and he supported the settlementss long as he thoht they were keepg israel safe. the moment he recogned the settlements were, fact putting rael in danger he wanted to pull themack. >> rose: where was ole nert that? spl he starts on the far right which is is israel should be something li it was in the bible. somef these people have a saying which is oth sides of the jordan river." there was aoment where israeli tax collectors in the ancient

world nt to both sides of the jordaniver and his family sort of a rig wing mily. but i think wn you getin the position of prim minister or start gettg near there and you look at the numbers and you look at the reality of the next 20 years you just have a change of het and you... beuse it's not responsible to sort of ve in that dream that israel's going to be le to control a is territo. rose: so how far d you think benjamin netanya will go in termof undoing what happed after t '67 war. t you. >> i don'tnow if it will be hior if it wi be somebody else. but ife doesn't do i his government will fall and somebody else will do and the quesons will it happen? and e question is will it happen with theisraelis taking the lead oroing it themselves or will it jt... the wls stt to cave in, which is something that a good leader's got to foree a neration ahead. >> rose: famously they sd palestinians nev miss an opportunity to miss opportunity. can you make that argument about israel in some way in terms of missing an opportunity have

had so kind of pea that woul have made it me secure than it is today he? >> yeah, loo there's a really fasnating things wch the fst israeli aders who are famousoshe diane ben-gurion these guys didn't want theest bank d they didn't wt jerusalem and thoseholy places they thoug that was theast and that would drive israelis crazy. and the'67 war in which isel wasrovoked into preempting there was a momentwhere they only took old rusalem at the very end of the r the last da and the was pplehat didn't want to do it. finally it was likyou can't be that closeo the coref jewis history and not take that final step. and in a way that w the moment 1967, which was e most euphoric momt, also they would kernel of all the current problems which is isrlis were temptebyistory into so of losingight of the reality which is there's they' a small people that have a natio because their gos have sort of been modest and t idea they were going t create a new kind of nation and new kind of

history. myother used to have an expressionout of the frying pan into anoer kind of frying pan." and the idea w to sortf take jews out o thealdron of europe and bng them the middle east-- at least thjews that ca from europe. t instead they sor of went into this other olde history which is the history of the bible. and we know howhat ended. that ended with 2000 years no home. so that means the pragmatic eay zionist leader to save israel fro itself. th's what i believe. >> rose: and do you belie that if sron had stayed i power and asonable health that s acevable? >> yeah. i think... i mean, there would have been a big figh >> rose: he would have been prepared to sta up to settlers and everything els and he woul have been able to say "i've been a warrior so therefore i understa national security and there have you he to trust me on this." right. there s a "nixon goes to ement" china... china element

for sure. sharon foughin the war of independce and he pulled the settments out of gaza. in his life... i thout it was fascinating that jews haven't lived that kind of life sin biblic times. he had a biblic life. he's still ave we forget that. but he had authority and he was a man of great accomplishment and did rely bad thgs too. he waslmost like a figure out of the ble. and he had the authority.. >> rose: lebanon primarily? >> yeah, i'm thinkinof lebanon. and he invted a lot of the israeli way of fighting terrorism whh you can argue that was successful but itas succesul but created longer-term problems. >> rose: so where do you think this is... i mean how do you think this will... in yo lifeme? >> i think. see one thing people think aboute is that i'm too pessimistic. i'm basically ayoung guy and they don'tike the ideahat a young guy that obviously loves israel a great deal has family, is pessimistic. >> rose: about? the future of israel. but i'm n reallyessimistic.

but i think one thing the early zionists had is they were a it is a trow fists. believed the wor was possle. that made them foree the holocat when no one else did. israelis havto look at the situation realistically and sort of say what's the worst situation? and the worst situati is for israel is no israel. and how do we avoid the? the way to avoid that i think, iso distangle the israeli pop nation the muslim popution. the jewish population and sort of separate themselveand that's what aron s doing. and theproblem now is a leer rong enough to face up politically to his own situation in israel with t settlers and everything. because ultimaly i'm not the first peon to say it the settlements endanr israel and rrode israel and make israel lose t original mission wch was never abouland younow it was about people and about saving jews and letting jews have full lives notbout holding cient holy places. >> rose: and do you believe that the palestians ithey were

offered th oppornity would satisfied >> no. i really don't >>ose: so you'reoing to live for... regardless of the settment regardle of atever solution or setement there is, you will continue to have e airations sometimes expressed by hamas? >> rig. but do believe the idea that if you could have geration twwith the lower temperature, with lessar with less killing on bh sides.... >> rose: an economic possibilities on both sid. >>es, you can have a generation of peoplebecause i do sort of think that people have more in commonhan they do different. >> rose: there some modelin south africa or irelando... >> ion't know. i think it's a unue situation because yohave two people where both ses are wron and both sides areright. you know, yo have equal claims. and the idea isyou know is... is it going toe lik... are we going back tthe ancient world here? >>ose: if you puthe kind of ttlement that was essentially

at tho coming out of camp davi would the majorityf iseli citizs-- in your judgment-- support it? >> yes absolutely. i mean israelhas a messedup political system wheby its proportial representation. which means that every government ho build a government out of all these lile coalitions. soou have these parties of just settlersor example with one issue. and they could pl out of the vernment at any time and collapse the government. and it's... they've tri to fix it before, but it's ralysis an it's causg them alot of prlems. >> rose: what's your assesent of benjamin netanyahu. people >> peopl fort that benjamin netanyahu it was guy who did the al on hebron, for example. and net you. and hebron... ariel sharon said if we had a normal country you wouldn't get in a car when you landed in tel aviv and drive to jerusalem,ou get a car and drive to hebron because tt's thfirst ancie car... temple

of the jewispeople. i think benjamin nenyahu is a polician and basically pragmatic and he les his countrand he wants to sort of stay on to politically but do what's right and i think he will ultimately do what's right to protect israel andf he doesn higovernment willollapse. >> rose: do you tnk that includesombing iran? >> don't know. theye so noisy about it that it makes me thi they're not going do it. it's very unisraeli to beo noisy about sothing. you know it's like in iraq it ju kind of... you turned on the t.v.nd theyad bombedhe nuclear reactor and eebbe when they rescued israeliostages in entee. it's all very quiet. the id of making a lot of noise means theyon't want milita, they wantomebody else tcome in and di want diplomaticly. >> rose: has anything in writing this book,hinking about the issues caused youohange anything in terms of your understanding or yourwn meaning? completely. i was just talking aut. th it's like iidn'to... if you wod have told me two years

ago that i'd write a book with these sort o conclions i wouldn't have belved it you know but rt of going to israel meetinwith the generals an the politicians who really wer responsible for the victories in '67 and the yom kippur war meeting th these guys a hearing their fears an their worrs, meeting with the.... >> rose: so what you've all been expresng is what they flected to you? >> right. and they feel... and tse are the guys they're heroes. for jews they're heroes. these are the guys if you talk to them... ty were very depressed when i spoke t them because they felt that israel had made a mistake after 1967 which is it wasike the classic act of hubriswhere they felt ey could haveverything. they felt they could have a jewish democracynd they could also have hebron. and basical they couldn' have bo. >> rose: that's what me say about the invasio of iraq. >> of iraq? >>ose: yeah. >> yeah. >> rose: tt you can have everything. you know, you can d this and create a model democracyn the heart of the middleast and all of those kds of tngs.

>> rose: i remember speakg to an israeli frid of mine o waa commando at entebbe and i talked to him about iraqefore d i said... he said "it will be easy it'sbomb bomb bomb go, go go it's aission and then you're snuck lebanon for fi years." >> rose: (laughs) smart guy. yes. >> rose: entebbe wre was benjamin netanyahu's brother was kied. >> that's rit. >> rose: so you talk to these guys who ty're in major leadership positions durin '67. >> right. >> ros and they said to you wi the we are facg an alternative that will great danger to the idea of israel. >> right. >> re: and in order to save that, we have to undohat we did after '67. >> right. >> rose: that's t conclion. >> that's what they felt. >> rose: and that's the central point of this book? >> yeah. i ink so, yeah. and ihinkhere sort of needs to be sort of a moment of reckoning for israes and gardless of what the inteions of palestinians are-- which, you kw, is aays... e palestinians alys use the

israelis as an exce and the israelis always use th palestinians as an excuse. it doesn'tatter what their intentions are because what's ultimately at stake israel's futu and they've got to take care of it themselves. >>ose: do you believe that ose same people believe tha thin are beingarried out in the name of security that they believe is doing some damage to... i don't thk >> i don't thi they think it's security you knowwhen you look at the settlements,or example, you ve a lot of soldiers protecng very few people a in dangerous positions. ariel sharon start the settlements really for military reasons, notor ideological reasons. he nght you put selements.... >> re: well, that's security at's national security. >> right. but ov time is like sort of the ideology, the religious scionists. the erlly zionists were secula they we not religious. and religion zionistsame in and attached valu to the pce. to slarn... i mean he talked about the place but it was really about the military, it was about thickening israel in its skinny plas and putting

wish towns on rdshich israel had been invaded. but suddenly where y have an issue ere you have 2000 missle in leban and thoseoads don't matter anymorend security not helpful. >> re: what wheredo you think rabin would have been if he d... not in termsf position but in ter of the ideas you would have expressed? >> i ty bean had the same realization earlyou know which is why he was a great lead. i think he had it ten years earlr than sharon, which is sort of israel has to actow to secu its own future and its own future can not be ruling the palestians. and the prlem is there's some group of palestinia that don't want peace with israel for whatever reason. one of which is ty might prefer a one-stateolution in which case the thing to do is just wait. >> rose: so theyon't want a soluti, then? >> they want another solutio arafat cled it the human bom you kn? >> rose: that's demographics >> demoaphic bomb. which is wll just outprocreate them andt will take care of

itself. >> rose: there's also this. you've sai the following that you li this. if you have sapling in your hand and they say to you the messiah has come finish planng the sapling and then neat messiah. >> i le that first of all as somebody newly moved the country. so iad taken an interest in gardening but alsohe whole idea whichs one thing about jewish historys people say we, the guy in times square says the world is ming to an end and jews realize the world has come to an end many many times before and theproblem is the world after it ends kee goinand you have to figure out how to live in it. >> rose: israel is real an obsessive... you chosehat word o? >> i ft likeriting the boo was obsessive and i felt it was like aittle bit of gonzo history of israel. >> rose:on obsessive quest to understand the jewish nion an its history." rich cohen, thank you. >> thank you. >> rose: thank you for joining us. see you next time.

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