and a th set up before it-- a shallow e he can lie down in, not aip bath. is the range lit in the kchen? yes. we will need much hot water as can bgot up here. when youave seen to that, i will nd leeches. dr. moan has some in supply. please sayhat if he can bring themimself it will be ch the better. thiss all my fault. i knew that hwas hoarse. i made him come out, i let h sit on the damp grass anget his feet wet miss hutto in the boat. i was withoth of you today.me., i saw no of the neglect i wahed you aof whichou speak. yoare not to blame for this now, go and wrg out a bedsheet in coldater. we must hang it bere the fire so that it sams. go. go! (walter wheezing (gently):aly little fend. you must djust (breathing healy) now.

(bedsheesquishing) are you praying, shy? i am not sure. i thini am begging. for god's merc for any outcomsophy, what if god an the one is willed this? does it coole you to think this might ffill some plan? i haveo choice but to be consol by it. otherwise my heart would bak. stay with me. for a moment's pyer. fath, i would sooner fight for s life than pray for his sou (sop running upstairs) (door opens)

i so very grieved, miss mty. (walter wheezing) come, now. we will get your lite boat from the nursery, (walter wheezing) and you can sail it all about this bath and tell me all the plac you will go when you are gwn and run away to join t navy.

there you are. dr. harron knows just what to do toake it better. we need moreot water. (door opens) upstairs(wheezin.ter. more lovely steam. its quite like the tropics upstairs( this bath.. (wheezing rapidl is this the isisis keep talking to hi think, i think your boat hacome to ththequator. you must hold tight no (rapid, shallowheezing) uavering): i suppose you y open the window now.

soph the catch sticks. (cing quietly) there no need to come on tipto you cannot disturb h now.

(clock chiming ligly)ing) martha asks you would like a cup ofea, miss matty. no, thank you, mardear. % i suppose now there wille nobody to call me matil anymore. deborah did not care fomy name being shortened, but ecept she.did it.

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>> charlie: welcomeo the broadcasas president continues his review of afghanist and pakistan picy, we talk about that policyeliberation in the white house withmartha of abc ne. peter baker o"new york times." and former state deparent officialjamie rubin. >> if you lk at themsee what is a direc threat to thenited states, the homeld, the first answer is, al qaeda in pakistan. the theory is there's not very many fights from afghanist left i afghanistan few than a hundred according to t american officls. therefore, the fus ought to be more innsely on those border areas pakistan where weave recently see these predators strikes, special operation raids and so forth

brinsome successes. >> look back in t last couple of mons what we have been talking about what sectary tes has been talking about, what the presint has been talking about is afghanistan deteriorating. if they say there arenly a hundred membersf al qaeda in afghanistan whs the deteriorating? a lotf people willay if the taliban isot the probl. >> i think also inthe last 24 hours you've seen statement made that we're not gng to let afghanistan fall tthe taliban. and i think what th're trying to do is set the parameters,on the one hander with not expecting to remake afghanistan in to a mode democracy, onthe her hand we're not just going to attackhe al qaa and pakistan with the drones. >> chaie: we talk about the national ftball league with the commissioner, roger goodell. >> coaching is obviouslydevelops deveped, technology developed. all of these things infence the game.

monitor each aspect of our gameo make sure that it continues to be competitive and enterry taping, fa paced because know that people are more demding now of what they spend th are time with in entertainment. the biggest thing we keep that emotional connectio between our teams an the fans, that's itical. >> crlie: we end with conversation with the governor of indiana, republica mitch daniels. >> i hopi'm wrong about. this t i think tw we don't yet see the evidence of so-called v-shad or any sort of rap meack. hit us very suddenly in iiana, we were atull employment in april,ay of last year. but we are a stronghol of manufacturing, sti one of the st manufacturing intensive states in america when thatll stopped when auto sales plummeted, rv sales spped

cold, people neededess fuel, hit us vy suddenly. we'll be awhile cong back. >> charlie: avages, football a politic thin we ntinue. captioning snsored by ro communications from our sdios in new york city, this is charlie ro.

>> charlie: wbegin with adminiering's ongoing review of th strate in afgnistan, presidt obama is said to be seeking a middle ground between the stark choice o either doubling down or leaving afghanistan. today a clearer picture of his thinking b continue tomerge senior administratn officials speaking to reporters emasize thathe focus now on defeating al qaeda in pakistan highlighting rect successes in lling al qaa members there. theyay pose less o secury risk to american ierests. thpresident is reported to be learning towds a smaller build of troops than proposed by coanding general, stanley mccrystal. he will meet ain with his national security team torrow with the fus is expected be trp numbers. ining me is jamie ruben, served inhe state department during the clinton administering. from washington peter baker of the "new yortimes" and mara of abc news. am pleased to have all of th here as we begin thi fourth day of looking at afghastan and

pakian as that subject is considered at the top of at is happing in the white hse over these las four or ve days. pete you have been writing about this for the time, tl me where you thi theonversation is, and how they're trying to frame it and howt may be changing from where ey began. >> well, i think that they are trying to relook at what is really in america's national interest here. if you look at afghanistan and pakistan figure out wh is a direct threat to thenited states, to the homeland, the first answer i al qaa in pakistan. th theory is there's no very ma fighters from al qaa left in afghanistan,erhaps fewer than a hundr accordingto american officials. therefore, the focus ought be more intensely on thoseborder areas ofakistan where we have recely seen these edators rikes, special operaons, ids, so forth bringsome successe if you assume that therefor the

top prioritys al qaeda they are the ones tryg to strike america, what does tt mean for afghanistan. the theory thenis, being discussed in the white house is that the talin doesn't actually aspire to attack the united stas proper. anso then questio becomes, would ey be enaer of qaeda if we don't manage to get rid of them in afghanistan. can they provide safe hav once again for al qaeda. those are the issues that are gog through right now in this debate that you'reeeing in the adminiration. >> charl: what is the politicshat's driving the debate, not that the national security not the first and morps interests, where are the politics if there are any? complicated. and multi-layered as we saw the other y when 30 members of congress leadingembers of congress went to the white house to dcuss this wit the president. yohad democrats who said, we'll be with you. we think you ought to do what general mccrystal aed in terms ofroviding more resources, democrats sai the posite.

who said not timeo send mor oops her just sending mor oops down a rat hole. then you had republicans pressing hard sang, new don't go what neral mccryst is asking you're effect signing a prescription for failure. >> crlie: epresident said yesteay, he made point that this was not hard choices between two huge differences. how are theyseeing the restints onthe president an chois he makes? >> well, you know, they begun to narrow wt the choices are. ed he saidthat congress memrs the other day not going to withaw from afghanistan, not gog to pull out sstantial numbs of troops. eats going to basically start with the assumptn that we're staying with the aunt of troops that wee got there right now, which is arou 6800. then the questions do you go up to afar as general mccstal s proposed another ,000 more or less. and what the options inetween. what would they actuay mean, whatind of ssion can you frame that mightot require

40,000 troops t sll achieve some of your national security goals. >> charlie: mara, you've gone to erages and pakistan with admiral and geners and lots of other people. is the a developing spli tween military perspective d a civiln's perspective in shington? >> i tnk there is, charlie. i have talked to a number of senior officers and other over the last cple of days. and what they say is thatthey fe dismiss. remeer, this isn't just stan crystal's report. this is dav praeus, this is admiral mullen ople who have been a war for eight years and they now see a president who has been in office less than nine months looking at adifferent strate. the president ked the military to comup with a strategy. fact let me read this quote. in march the president said he wanted to execute and resrce an integrated civilian military counter insurgency sategy in afghanistan at's exactly what

the mility beeves they were tasked to do. and now they are being questionedbout that. charlie: andare th -- is the questionhrased between whether we should from cnt irrelevant iurgency to counter terrorism is that sim playfition of the cision? >> that's probly too simple. i think is more compl than at. what a lot opeople inhe military havtold me is th they see this, if heevelops or acces this sort of counter insurgency or counter terrorism strategy heavy in fac what they're doing is the status quo. because at peter wasalking about what the wte house is reaching outo reporters they reache outto me as well today, is they' talking about pastan and things have gone well there. look back in the last couple of months. what we have been tkingabout, what secretary gates haseen talking about, whatthe president has beentalking abt, is afghanistan deterioring. if he this say they're oy 100 members al qaeda i afghanistan, whyit

deteriorating. i think a lot of peoplin the military will say, if the taban's not the prlem, what are wdoing there. >> charlie: do theyhink ey can draa distinction tween the talan and qaeda or theear that taliban will allow al qae to grow give eight sanctua if talib are control? >> think the military feels that way. hink you've hea sect gates say that inrecent weeks. just this week he said there was a connectn, a symbioc relationship, yove heard secretarof state hillary clinton y the same tng. th look at that as a problem of them being tother not al qaeda separately. not the taliban separaty. >> charlie before i goo jami because he's had longe view, where are the players, peter? who is auing what? >> well, vice presidentiden has been the most vocal skeptic of the ide of nding substantial new troo to afghanista he's telling telling peoe tt teasnot argue f less troop t that increase resources in

afghanistan sses the point. pakistan is the mos impoant priority right now. on the other side you do see military as mara justalked about admira mullin, general petraeus and general crystal,omewhere in the middleo secretary gates and clinton. both of whom have been hawkish to some extent in the pt, but i don't think have given full-toated endoements yet to the full mccrystal, if you will. >> charlie: where is m jones? >> i tnk jim jone and robbie manual t chief of sr are re step particular call of trul stall full, heavy commitment of additional troops. certainlmore so than in march. >> charlie: ins both of you are required to some othe scussion that are going in, reaching out so thathe white house reaching out to you guys, to try to express a point of viewwhere is the predent? can yotell anythg by his

questions how he sees the circumstance >> i think -- look, he said publicly tt he's skeical. that is probably true not just a way of signaing to the left that he'sin to their concerns he genuinely is reluctant to go with the 40,000 troop increase, that sort of size ofthings. the initial surge, if you will of tros he sentarlier in the year 21,000, probably any president comi in would have done that. and sor of default try to staunch the bleeding and get elections in afghanistan secure. but now he's really coming fac to facwith the choice of what does he want to down afghanistan. what does he want his presidency to be about? if he makes this decision to send a substantial numr of additionalroops to afghanistan he knows tt's going to fine to a large eent his presiden. and that's a dpen gaement. the reing books about vietnam

in the white house right now, he's read e book recently about george bundythe national security advisor from the keedy-johnson era and very weary of having any repeat of histor >> charlie: whys that book so important? 6. >> think that if u listeno the lbj tape from that erayou hear him tellingis senators, iends, that he doesn't think he can win in vietnam y he feels mpelled to keep escalating and escalating because he told that only option he has. thishite house says, that they don'want to make the number of troo the real iss, want to ma the strategy t issue first,he numbers follow with the straty is. >> i thinkhat's one of the points that was the psident who talked about this strategy in march. it was the psident who said h wanted counter insurncy strategy that, now he is rethinking this one these troo

mbers come u i ink peter saysou don't really know whathe president thinking. i do not think senior offials and aides from the white house would be reaching out to reporters today and last night if the president was not thking along these lines. >> chaie: of restricting the number of newroops? >> ithey're focusing on al qaeda sayg taliban is no the threat that tells you they are not willing at this pot to accept the 40,000 additional troops. >> charlie: put this in context. where th presidential decision and a sense that have been enged since 2001 in a large battle are against whateveyou define it a terrorism, jihaddism, notust in iraq and not just in pakistan, not just infghanistan, but it's ound the world. >>ell, i think that will end up defining the decision because as much as there has been a move in rent days to focus in on

al qaeda rher than t taliban, i tnk also in the last4 hours you've seen a stement made that we're not going to letfghanistan fall to the taliban. and i think whathey're trying to do is set the parameters, on the one hand we're not expecting to reme afghanisn in to a modern democracy, on th other hand we're not justoing to attack thal de a in paktan with the drones. so, in the last 24ours, they're trying to say, look, we've been at this for eight years. we the new ministration has been handed awar that wasn't fought prorly for t first si seven years. it was underesourced. and these generals, th is rely important, you've on your showad authors writing about how the on and twstar gerals in iq war didn't stand up to the civilns, didn't tell donald rumsfeld and george bush you d't have enough troops. this military crow that's now pushing and respoing to the

president's requests t tell him wh he needs, we're n going to make that mistake again they're saying. 're going to tell at you you ed to win. and wee going to tell you what we need to fulll your mission. d we're not going to sug coat it with low numbers. thatcreates this moment and i think it is an imptant moment, because i thin what the presidenhas done really well is make sure every base is touched in this date to have all those membs of congress, 30 of them troopg in to the whe house for a meeng about a a war is a prett rare thing, at this stage. he's trying to makesure that whatever decision he makes he maximizes the chances that the cotry stays with him. because it's stayingpower that's going to determin the outcome here. and seetary gatessaid mething very important that maha alluded to, which is, if thxtremists, whether you call theml qaeda, taliban,muslim extremists, whatever, ink they can beatnother super wer the way they deat the soviet union in afghanistan, that will a

big victory in this grand w against islamic extremism. they will have a recruiting tool a propaganda arment, today even as president's advisors are sayi we're going to focus on al qaeda, so saying wee not going to let the call p come back to wer and takever the country agn. we're not goin to give them that big second deat of the super powe >> charlie: thethink they can do that? >> that isthe hard part. how do you cut ts fine enough so tt you don'teed 40,000 new trps or perhaps more that ght be in this document. buyou defeat etaliban, i thinthe part of ts that they're ing to come out emphasizing is that along with the troops is going to have to me work on the civilia side, going to to have come help from our allys, youe going to have tout this allogether so tt there's no take over of everything by the taban. >> chaie: speakinof at -- go ahead. >> noaking over of afghanistan bytaliban but we're not

expectinto do all this by ourselves because the cost is intense. >> chaie: why are the allies not responding? especially aer this president has come to them sai i'm speang a different language, i have difrent goals, i am a mmitted to worki with you on probms around the world. like itfell on deaf ears. >> verging on a scandal in u.s.-european relation, is th we have president oma reonding to alliedoncerns out u.s. policy across the board. clime change, internaonal law, treaties, all of the things that they wanted to see in americ president do, come to the u.n. put global responsibilities, no more unilatalism, then a nato mission and yet germany, secd biggest country in nato really not doing very much in afghanistan. there's billions of doars wortof cilian progms, lice programs, thingsthey can do short of sending troops.

i tnk it's time for the european allie ihink the adminiration is going to have to eage in serious diplomatic push to get it,ime for th to contribute this nato missi. ifato fails it' bad for everybody. >> charlie: martha an peter, put the context of nation building ito all of this mix because general mccrystal in the report that was leaked by bo woodward got his hand on was printed,ade the point that he said is is urgent, that we'vgot a year, if we don't do mething within a year the taliban are on the acene dee, al said it was gng to require a snificantamount of nation building,of getng the ghans involved and having gornment that could help deal with the problems the. my see -- go ahead, per. >> that's what's the rea issueh. what has changed sce march is we've hadhese afghanistan electis in august that were

widely marred by fraud and underscorehe lack of legitimacy of the curren government probay theuture government, ghanistan. so obama team looking at this saying, how n we do nati building, how can we do this improvement on governance, infrastrture and even training without reliable partner that has the tru and credibility with the afghanistan population itlf. now, they didn't have any illusions about hamid karzai, perhapthey should have anticipated is would be the result much the election that ppened in august. but right now that is whe theye at. election is still unsettled haven't even decid who'd is going to win necessarily, they undetand that probablkarzai will be still tre and they have to figure out what to do about that. >> charlie: artha? >> o of the things tt people forget ithat the fdamental core of a counter insgency campaign to try to win the pele over to your se. whether that's throughation

building, whether it's tough e economy,ou want tse people to side with you for very practical reons. you want them toelp you, you nt them to help you with inteigence and finding al qda. you don't wa them to side with e taliban, you don't want em to be so afraid of the taliban that they wi side with them. andight now what's happing in afghanist and what many people worry about is you have the fence siers. we tked about a l in iraq as well. the pele are saying,ell, i don'know, which side shoul i go to? is it the taliban in control is ithe u.s. forces who are going to help me. that's why thi is such a crital period that people are really loong at the s. and they're saying,re they gog help us? are they goingo commit enoug troops that is general says it will take to succeed in afghanistan. >> charlie: so, the president faces a decision in which the sponse on the part of the afghanpeople and oer influential players might th're not in it for the long run so therefore, i'm not going to take a risk and side with

em. >> right. this is a hug risk, charlie. is doesn't go away. this is not like hlthcare you don't win the healtare debate are maybe it goes away. this war is goingo go on d after day aer day. so he t only riskss rift with the military, he is going have to watch wt happens in afghanistan every single day afterthis. d if it srts deteorating ev more, then they're i ouble. >> and equally there's other auence. the white use is correctly focused on e existenc of real al qaeda terrosts in pakistan. and pakistan's leadership is oughted yes, sir her ey have long fear, at least they say ty have long feared that the united states will leave afghanistain the ledge agaias happened after thefall of communism and thus ty will haveo deal with the talib and so they needo have ties to tm, they need to work with th. just ithe last few months we

finally after many years of hard work turned the taliban -- rry, turned the pakistan government around to the pnt where they are actually cracking do in sious way,enbeiged in painful litary exercises against the extremists in their untry. we have to convince them that wee in this for the long ul so they cacan stay on the path cause everyone agreeas pakistan goes, so goes the future of the war on terrorism and frank, nonproliferion and othecrucial issues. everything the pakistas beeve and be convince i think is a cruci test o whetherny ne policy can work a that's why i think you've seen in the last 24 hours, statements ke, no,we're microsoft going to let the taliban come bac to power and toy over. we may havto work with some of them they may b part of power sharing agreement, fine. but not lting everything fall again is sething that's crucial to kp the pakistas who are finally doing t right

thg on side. >> charlie: peter, what is the time- yes, g ahead. >> look how complicated thi s. as we've just talked about t pakistangovernment working in tandem withmerican forces the tribal areas, t just this week as bill ts on president obama's desk thathe supporte toauthorize basicay 7.5 billiodollars for pakistan over the nextive years, the kistanis are complaining about because it comes in their view wh strings, becse the bill requis secretary of state to evaluate how pakistan doinwith civilian control over thmilitary or howt's doing in fighting extremiststhis is threat to their national ofr tee. a very complicated pictu, nothing is sy. >> chaie: peter, martha, thank you. thank you jame >> thank you. >> charlie: we'll be right back talk tohe commissioner of national football league.

thcommissioner ever the national football lgue, 27 yes ago he begans unpaid intern under foerommissioner pe row sell. 2007 business we named him the most powful person in sports. nce taking ove for paul gliabeau rocker instituted range of policies including exnsion of the nflbrand road. i am pleas to have him here at this table. at long last f the first time. great to be with you, charlie. i got that hint. >> charlie: great to he you here. give me assessment of proceed neckal football andhe nfl at th moment. >> well, we're doing terrific. when you take all measures, ratings, attendance, you see the fans are more engaged with otball than they have ever been. and th's terrifi it doesn't mean that w don't have our challenges

the game of football has never been more popular the nfl is real has that bnd and that integrity th we're so proud of. >>harlie: what are its internationapositivesbilities? >> we think they're tremendous. we play regula seasonames over in ndon, this will be our thd year. it sold out in a matter of hours. the fans in the u.k. have shown tremendous enthusiasm for the game. both in atteance, of wching on television and other ways of engagingith our game. wee actually looking at the idea of expanding ourone game a yeareries totwo games a year as early as next year. and i think if thearometers continue to be trend in positive way, t fans connue to develop, it's possib they coulhave an nfl franchise me day. >> charlie: the queion would be people turn out on sustained basi secondly not only to generate seat people in the seats but also television. >> right.

bottom le is, want to fill our stadiums, w want to broaden our audience through television and now wi newechnology gis us way toeach our fan more directly. charlie: the nbahas done veryood job of that. >> yes. >> crlie: internationally. it's a very popular ort. >> bastball is very popular game worldwide. as soccer is. football is not played around the obe as either one of those sports are. but at doesn't an there's not popularity d interest in our game. in fact wefound exactly the opposite they le to watch it, ey love to follow it. we are now expanding on o efforts to bring the game to them more dectly. the technology has been great valuen doing that. >> charlie: what do you need to change? what's your msion? >> thehing that wealways focus on is the game. making sur that our game stays strong. >> charlie: integrity of game. >> the competitiness ever the game. when you've strong pduct it gives you thebility to do so muchore. the secon piece would be how we

continueo make our32 teams succsful. how do wellow them to operate in way where they continue to inst in the me, grow the me that's goodfor evebody. players, coaches, nfl and owners. ththird would be, how do we use innovation. can we use innovation to expand our game, allow our fans to experice nfl football t way they have never experienced it before. >> charlie: micel vick. tell me how that process worked how you de the decision and what took place. >> well, we did an awl lot of work on it. i spent probably five hoursith michael in an initial hearing back in july. i spenan awful lot of time talking people that had an interest and peoplwho didn't ve an interest. charlie: what was your riosity? >> my curiosity, where is michael at this intin time? through thinksxperience where he in the -- at the point where, what kind of human bei d he want to be goin forward?

wasn't worried aut h race footba player in the five hours i spent with him i d not speak to him once about footba. it was about where hewas in his process -- >> charlie: you kne he would come back a play football. >> i don't knowthat. that not a judgment that i need to make. it's a judgment the teams had to make. that's not my responsibility. my responsibilityis, had he learned from his experience had he committed himself to making better decisions going forward. and uld he represent e nfl inay that was positiv rand i belie he has. i believe thate deserved the right to pro to peoplehat he d learned from his experience. >> charlie: what test? a step process. once i had bn able to make my determinatioabout where he was, i spoke to an awf lot of pele inside and outsi of football, leaders in all areas. >> charlie: what woulyou ask them? >> how do you know somebody's changed? how do you knosomeone who has throh an experience ever being

in jail f two yea has learned a lesson. some of those peopl were jim brown as annexal pel o works with ex-con vision. and trying understa what a person gs through what doe person need continue to be successful. ani've said frequtly, charlie, we ed success stories in our society. d i hope michael vick will be that. we have tried to give him process that will increase his chce of beinguccessful. not only on fooall field but off the otball field. >> charlie: how does he explain at h did? >> well, it's a long process. in going through that i spent an awful lot of tim asking that. he recognizes the mistake h de. he doesn't offer any excuses. one the most revealing moments to me was when i asked him, how did you tell your children. >> charlie: what did heay? >> it wavery difficult for him. when i realized thathis you man had trueremorse and that he

realized that he haddon something that embarrassed himself,is family and let's face it it w horrific. people have difficulty getting their arms aund the acts that he was involved wh. pele believe in second cnces if people admit their mistakes trto move on and be a pitive influence. hopefully be se positive thgs. >> charlie: t is an american story, the ris fall, se again. what'shanging about the game? the athlete faster, smarter, tougher? althat. >> i thinkll of that. i think theules continue to -- weodify the rules everyear, charlie. becae there are different trends in our game. the athletescome, they are better trained, th way they play the game on the clege levemay influence theway ung men play the game. coaching is obviously developed. equient's development, technolo's developed. alof these things influence the game, we mitor each aspec

ofur game to make eir that it connues to beompetitive, and enttaining, fast paced, becausweknow the pele are more demanding now what they end their time wit and entertainmt. biggest thing try to do make sure that we keep tt emotional connection between oureams and the fan that's critical for us >> why is that hard? >> bause it's so ea to break that bon a am doesn't perform well, they are disappointed i anytng that can happen with the team. >> charlie: tell m more abt that. what it is that sports gives community, gives us all as somee who is a huge spor fan as you know. >> i like to think of it, nothing brings a cmunity togeer like thenfl. it brings everyby together, not only physicallyn weekds to be ab to, whether you com stadium or wheer you go to a restaurant, ether you sit at ho, you bring friends and

family together be able to enjoy an afternoon you get away fm your troubs. but u all have that one thing in common for that one afternoon of pulling everyone together, pullingiverse community together sayg we're all rooting for e samehing. the detroitions today. and we nee to see the detroit lions win and take pde in the fact -- >> chare: city need sothing to believe in. >> they do. we believe the lions we think all 32 of our teams give our communities that opportunity. >> chaie: and why football rather than say basketba? or hockey? >> we think football is a tremendous game. i think the build up that exists, firsoff it's on sunday. >> charlie: a day off. >> you have week bld up, sundays are ys when families are gether and friends are togeer. and they spend their afternoons together. they go -- they'reoing to the stadium, go all day long they tailgate, watch thegame, spe

time with their famy and friends after wards. we thi that's a tremdous benefit. >> charlie: college fooall istrong. colle basketball is strong. they only end a year bore they move on. >> that's a tremendous thing. football, they spend threer fo years at the college lev, think the more they stay at the llege level the better r thyoung men, st iortantly. better for the college -- >> charlie: their own maturation. >> any time someone can be exposed to formal education process they're goo be better equipped to deal with life. that's what 're really interested in. these young men come play football forreat carr ten year they have the re of their life to deal with. and theetter prepared th are to deal wit at, the betr we are as aeague. >> crlie: what does the league, how does t league take care of its forr players? >> somethinge're really fosed on. beuse we can do a better job an we've done,harlie. 're focused on pension, we're

focuseon medical benits. onof the things we did with thefl pa and with a grp of nfl umni, hall of fame that deal with our retired players, is to try to determine what we n do in the medical areas. we know that our players are more subject to feeng the acheand pains after a lengthy athletic carr we've done a int replacement program. where we'll pay for that joint replacement. >> chaie: if i play in the nfl ieed new knees y pay for th? >> go to the finestospital in thcountry and pay for it. and we do that with joint replacemen cardiovascular screening, nowancer screenin. we'rtrying to aress the needs that we think our players have >> charlie: whaare the issues i t new collectiv bargaining >> how we contie to have a model that will alw our game to grow. the one thing that's changed since our collective bargaing agreement started ba in '9 're investing more private money in to stadiums.

not only do you ha the build those stadiums we' budding one across the river here i new york that will be probably $1.7 or.8 bilon dollars. >> charlie: what did texas co? >> about 1 billion. most that ha is with private money. new yorkt's all private money. d that's achallenge. th you have to operate these stadiums. then you he to make capital improvemts to keep the stadiums up. that's tremdous ex experience that we dn't have evenen, 15 years ago. and it's a change in our economs. we have to dea with in our collective bargaing agreemen and m hopeful that 'll do at in positive way. >> charlie: hat are the annual revenues from television to the nfl? >> about $4 billion rht now. >> crlie: a ni start. >> a niceround number, s. >> charlie: hat impact do you have on that coverage? >> well, we hav great partners to start with. we have the sports networks obviously with espn, we have cbs, we have fox, we have nbc.

all of them have led rolutions in t way you watch television. hi-defs great thing for us for football. peopleon't even want to go backatch in standard definition. >> charlie: or tennis or any other spor >> absolutely. a terrific -- butlso evything from cera anglesto the way they present ou game, we're just thrled we have the kindof focus and attention art r nips that we have to psent our game >> charlie: howany nights is foball on? >> nfl football we're on sunds d mondays and then we have late season package with the nfl neork on thursday nights primarily somesaturday games. late in the season after college football is over. >> charlie: you wouldn't have friday nightecause of high school games or what? yes. even during college and high school season we w't conflict with them. we believe that game is songer by having great high school footll and great college otball. we don'tlay in cflict with

any of tho levels. we won't do that until their season is over thas why you don't see saturday games until aftecollege football is ov. >> charlie: what are you worried about? >> we're struling to make sure that we're dealing responsibly with the economy. we're like every oer business, we're not imne from what is ing onment our fans are hurting. our partners are hurting. and we hav to work harder, we have to be morecreative and we ha to extend ourselves more than we ever have before. >> charlie: drugs? how big a problem for u? >> is a constant challenge. both in performance enhancing de and street drug side. the performance enhanci has got ena lot of focus recently. and ritfully so. we have to make sure thatur game hasn together dwri tee. >> charlie: do you needo be tougher? >> we have been quite ugh. we led the way in professional sports and -- >> charlie: testing. >> wehad program or 20 years that westablished with our

ayers association we conduct over4,000 test sacks year on our players. so they -- we take i seriously testg is one element. the great thing about it is, while i c't tellou that there isn't ybody that is takingerformance enhanci drugs, you will ge caught if u're taking them in the n because of our testing. >> charlie: no question in your mind? >> no question. eventually youl get caught. >> charlie:how many year have youpent with the nfl? how many d i say? >> it's my 28th season had one year in the stl industry out ofcollege, yes. >> charlie: then became the -- >> became intern. >> charlie: what makes a greatommissioner. pete rozell set the standard. >> i've been fortute i've said many times i've worked for the tw greatest commissioners in sports, pe and paul tagliabeau. i was able to learn from the

ve often said, nobody gets where they a alone. you ve to have great influences. and one of the things bothof those men ught me wasthat it's not about commissioners it's about the game. the pele don't watch football to watch a commissioner. they watch to seethe players and thecoaches. anwe have to get out of the way and let our fans enjoy the game make sure we're doing erything we can to bring mor football to our fans and to do it in way where they can know there is in trek grey tee credibility. worth their me and effort follow. >> charlie: on suay are you in thetands or at hom watching lots of games? >> a little bit of bot i go toames -- >> charlie: when you have time? i go three out of four weeks i probablyo to a game. >> charlie: threeut of ur, four weeks you' go three times. >> i take wkend off everynce in awhile. i sit at ho with wife like refer to as the m caveust watch football with my twin daughters. >> charlie: what es the man cave look like?

>> i he three games up on the wall, i have three games gng on in the red zone channel from swites fromgame to game. >> charlie: it is amazing wh television has done in the coverage of athletics. e quality of the telesion, e quality of the covege, mber three, how the technology st continues to get better. well, that'shat we find so exciting. is that thnology is allowing us to bring the game to fans in fferent ways. they don't jus watch on television now. our kids are wahing on the computer screen, tir watching onhe telephones, and we're able to tak that tremendous content of our games and deliver to fans unique ways. that just gives themchance to get deeper volved with the nfl. is doesn't mean just games, i our off season we have what they ll the combine. where we bri the topollege plers in to be evaluated and praration for the draft.

people watch tt in record mbers. the draft d 40 millionpeople is year watching. in the middle of nba and nhl. >> charlie: d't count meas one of those. >> i will next year. >> chare: going too far. great to have you he. >> great tbe with you, charlie. roger goodell commissioner of the national fooall league. tch daniels is hereas director of the ofrs of manament andbudget under george wbush, earned the nickme mitch "the knife" f spending proceed potionalls. the rst republica governor of indiana in 16 years a thi past novber he was elected to his second term defeating democratic opponent with 1 point margi his success duri period of republican struggle attracted growing interest beyond ste's borders, his hometown paper cently wrote that the tional media starti to disver our governor. am pleased to hav man that i

have kno for a longtime, in washingt and now i'm visiti our city from indianapolis, governor mit daniels of indiana, wcome. >> thanks, charlie. somebody canl on you? >> no. we wanted yohere for a long time. >> for whatev prompted it i glad. >> charl: i am, too. i first wa to do this much to talk about. a kind of viefrom the heartland. how doou see the economic recovery from your perch? >> it's uncertain. it's slow, i hope i'm wrg about this but i think that we don't y see the evidenc of so-cled v-shaped or any sort of rapid come back it hits very suddenly in india, we wer at full employment in april, mayof last ar. but are a strongholdof manufacturg, still one of the most manufacturing intense states in america. so when that all stopped when auto sales plumted, rv sales

stopped cold, people needed less steel d so forth hit us very sudden. i think we'll awhile coming back. >> chaie: how long do you think it will take? >> well,gain, i hope to be proven wng but i suspe that this wille gradual. you asked how weook at it, in nesty don't seemuch that's being done nationall other th appartly sucssful monetary policso far. having ch impact. another thing that think will weigh us astate government and also on the general economy is tt ithink people's consumption patter will be permanently more restrained than before. charlie: and saving will go up? >> savings has gone up. savinghas gone from negative toplus 6% o something like that. lot that have isebt repayment. but i just have sensealking to folks on the strts of our

towns that millions eople realize that we as a country, as individuals we wer spending too muchborrowing too much too it and that that isjust bad practice even if the economy comes back around i'll vy surprised if consumption sort of shoots backanywhere less to ere it was. i think people are going -- they have learned a lesson, eye not sure anydy would loan them that kinof money if they wanted to spd freelyagain. so that may all mean at things take awhile to come around. >> what el will ben impact onasting or sustaining impact of thisconomic recession we went through? >> charlie, you know, i had assignment for two and have ars to include responsibility for looking at th feder buet. i hav never been a e obsess aut certainly not the nual deficit.

we have larger probls. but now ithink we're building ourselves a real big one. ani worry about the amoun of money that's been printed recely. about bringi that in off the reet before itauses an inflation that cld make what we've justeen through ok like a in thisase in this se. >> charlie: hat spending policies would y disagree with >> i disagree wi the peonally as citizen disagree withverall levels of spending preceding this adminisation. i did not quarrel with e idea, i certainly didn't ve tter idea than president stimulus' program. the bill congress wte didn't okike what he hoped f, he has a lot of work in it, has a loofoney that won be spent for a long tim didn't have anything to did th getting people back to work now. >>harlie: tell me 'out healthcare reform.

>> i disagree with the dirtion that's bn taken. >> chaie: th the senate financial committee? tireirection. i personally favor making the -- favor tax subsidy f healthca. but i think itught to be individual, we oug to free up the inviduals to do it i'd take it out of the whole enployment context. it's not a popular position. i would i thi what we do now is inequitable, favors the wealthy over the lesealthy. think it leads to over consumption. people feel like is free. give me thatecond test. charlie: as i said you're theeartland, you are out there, don't people like medicare? >> yes. i think they like security of medicare. buthere are other ways to liver. that secury can be provided in other ways. charlie, wve brought a lot of people under -- who were

previously uninsured in syst created in our state amounts to personal aounts orealth savings accounts. it is doing what i thinkwe all want to do, protecting and securing people ainst economic disaster. but it is first of all, ving them the dignity and freem to make the fir dollar choices themselves, and i trust pple to become good consers, if you gi them the abilityo that. i she, i think we all total scontent with the status quo in healthcare. i wh that the direion of policy were not as i see it, simply cent status quo in place ma it a lot more expeive. it certainly god bless the presidt and the folks worng on thibill if the can find a way nestlyo honor his commitment that won't a to the defici i think th's going toe

excruciatingly hard if not impossible to do. >> charlie: areyou going to run for president? >> no, i am not. >> charlie: you sure? >> i have painted myself in pretty well. charlie: you kno national politics, you have a national name. >> maybe i know it enough to know it isn't a gd ia. yo kw, people keep asking, i finally -- >> chaie: ask because u're a success story in indiana. >> we think indianis auccess story. charli ihink tt it distills down to maybe this. i would say, duty, family an practicali. duty thing real important i just sad to be rehired for a four-yearob. i do feel duty bound to do it. no the to lk off. you know how the process works. but people run for preside almo have to start now. and that would be wrong to do. secondly, this