a multilater world. that america uer barack obama had ended, promised end gutanamo to abandon and reject torture as a means of govnmental action. so i mean i think there re real reasons. i'not saying there -- to really reject- in europe somehow re -europe in the 20thentury stole more ood and lost more suns by a factor, geometrical fact than the uted states did. and so they knowar. their resistence to war bad upon having been fought in the ckyard and front yard. i thought thatresident obama made -- i i do not think th the entrance of thunited states, certainly in iraq and a questi of contind presence eight

ars after the event of 9/11 in afanistan and eight years afr the taliban -- is e test of a justar. >> lehrer: dyou think that esident obama made the case for afghanistan whi he was making his bipoint speech? >> a little was about pragmasm. the is this elaborate thing called just r theory which he did not go into fortunately. >> lehrer: that's very complica complicated. >> pretty raightforward. >> y have 30 seconds. >> i would be ppy to do it but he mentioned allhese different princiess, but then in the end d this is true about obama, says there is no reci. you have to go case by case. and soe made the case for afghanistan. and i thinhe pretty much saidi started out as someone o is suspicious going in. i arted out suspicious of staying where were but i was dragged byhe evidence by pragmatic rsons that we had top our ante. and the se made specifically to the europes is that the govement understand the responsibility but the americaneople were much

more suspiciouand a bit of what he is did in that speech was try tpersuade the americ people to supportheir government. >> the damage inflicteupon the country going to war must be seous, must be grav and must be lasting. it must have exhausted all other means of rolving the dispute bere you go to war. or is seen as a last rest. and third this is a ju r. and that oer means must be seens practical, ineffective,aving been exhausd. there mu be a reason for a chance of suess and of course you musbe proportional tthe ends is out inodern war that obviously involv air attacks, as well acivilian populati. and think it's tough to make the casin 2009 that afghanistan represents a grave threat in the unit

states. >> do we want th afghanistan debate. first of all i sat throu hours of just war theorynd mark just explained it tter than those hours so i'm grateful. lehrer: what about -- pick up for a momentn margaret's piece abouthat the germs told her about this was -- th was 60 years ag and it was some teresting pot, did it ring with you? it does ring with me. at some point, i mea what germany under adolph hitr and the third like did cs to heav in -- reich ys to heaven for vennce and will never be forgotten by anybodwalking this earth. but after three generations it is time to lookt germany with fresh eyes. >> ba about the germans. >> that is the thi. i think we trust the germans. think successful add american administratio have asked them toake more gressive roles he, use their por in former yuing laughia, et cetera, et

cetera. but cultures jt movely. and the germans themselve does not seem to be ere, especially the ones who ar western rman. and so cultus, the 65 years ter a trauma like world war ii oworld war i that is the blink of aeye. and we shouldn't rh them tohere they as a people are t willing to go. an65 years is just not a a long time. >> lehrer: new subject e senate democratic compromise on alth-care rerm what do you make of it? >> as so as we know what it is. >> lehrer: a you really getting piy, aren't you. >> i was there wednesd after noon tryinto find out again what it is. and loand behold senators off e record would admit they didn't know exactly w was -- what was in i but you know - >> lehr: but no public option, is that at both of you have been told s tt real? >>ell, the left quite honestly itrying to hide its gl in many cases. i mean, the left, i me senators like jay rockefeller, dk gephardt

pushed thifor years to expansion of medicare tohe age of 55. in fact, ahony wiener, democratic congressman fm new york citmade the miste saying this isn't the -- nose under e -- --. >> this is what i don' understand, in oer to get thmoderates they propose something which is furth to the left an what is theralready. so who a we fooling here? i mean it is -- it movesou tord a single payor, it is a government pn. and the concern that a lot people have, it will -- willou have a lot of cost shifting going on that the mecare is paid for by shting costs under the private plans. you get more medicare, that mas it harder for the doctors and providers toay for the stuff becae there is less undethe private plan so the idea th we've solved our problem wh the modetes, i don't think so. >> getting to 60, that is ally what it is. lehrer: that is all about. >> it isn't ing over 60, it is geto 60. an that's sabut we don't have majority rule in the united states. it actually has to work. 're putting together a policy that actually has t work and it seems li they

are throwing things there tory to get to 60. >> that is absolutely true. but what we have n does not work is not work. we've got a couple more people, and 've got to improve the coveragef those to do itnd we've got to control the cts and i think ththird one is the ughest. >> lehre do you think the moderates will end up buying this? >> ihink the more that people likus talk about it , -- --. lehrer: tell them what it is. >> you kw, i think you can make a case that iis a step ay from the public option that was celebrated. you know, it ces down to, jim, how pple want to make theiown judgement about it. i do think that the final analysis that probably se form of trigger is easier to sell but u know, right now aryou trying to get 60 votes. >> yeah, still assume they will get to those . from my reading ofhe moderates i don't thk you e the firm opposition to withstand all the pressure

you would take but there h en this shift in public opinion overhe last week tw d quite negative it i mean the cnn poll which is ybe a little advanced had i think 61% opposition and the support was only 30. that is a little higbut still significant majori opposition, signicant minori support and whether that affects what actually going on side rry reid's office i'm not re but the public is getting more skeical. >> there is urgency of time i think that is what the consequence of that is, the longer it goesi think the ugher sellt becomes. that's why try to get it do before christmas becomes so important. >> oka mark did, thank you both ve much. >> woodruff: again, thmajor developmen of the day. the s. house approved the most sweeping overhaul ofinancial regulati since the great pression. and feral limits on pay were extended deeper into exetive ranks at comnies the government rescued. the newshour continues now online. for details of what u can find, let's go back to hari sreenivasan in ourewsroom.

hari. >> sreenivasan: on our webite tonight, video postcar from our patchwork tion reporting trip across the country. tonight,ay suarez tries his hand at glassbwing in lincoln ty, and dante chinni explore the toll of the onomic downturn othe area's health care providers. you can watch my conrsation with newshouhealth correspondent betty ann wswer about the senate's attemptto strike a deal health reform legislation this week. and on jeffrey brown'srt beat blog, muc icon david byrne discses biking, urban design and the future of cities. here's an excerpt. >> the pattern in e way cities woror the way they don't work, things that fe comfortable out a city or don'or the way a city's changi sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. >> sreenivas: also online a port on how residents in switzerland feel abouthe country's refendum banning the construction of narets on sques part of our collaboration with the onlin news venture "obal post".

you can find a this and more at newshr.pbs.org judy. >> woodruf and that's the wshour for tonight. i'm judy woodruff. >> woodruff: "washingt week" can be seelater this evening on most pbs stations. we'll see you on-line. and again here mondaevening. have a ne weekend. i'm jilehrer. thank yoand good night. major funding fothe pbs newshour iprovided by: >> what the rld needs now is energy. e energy to get e economy humminagain. the ener to tackle challges like climate change. what is that energcame from an engy company? everay, chevron invests $62 million in people, in eas-- seeking,eaching, building. eling growth around the worl toove us all ahead. this is thpower of human engy. evron.

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