captioning sponsored by macneil/lehrer productns >> lehrer:ood evening. i'm jilehrer. president obama shovedenate mocrats toward a final vote for health care reform. >> brown: and i'm jeffy brown. onhe newshour tonight, a deal would set e stage for congressionapassage by christmas. >> lehrer: we'll talk to t journalists who e on the deal- mang story. >> brown: then, terror spects from guantanamo bay in cuba ll be med to a prison in rural illinois. margaret wner reports. >> lrer: a showdown in copeagen between china and the u.s. ofighting global warming. ray suarez is at the cmate talks.

>> bro: plus, a very unusual look aclimate change, seen from inse one of mount everest's aciers. >> lehrer: and paul solmanalks to economist a statesman george schultzwho believes no financial instition should ever bconsidered "too big to fail." >> there's an underlying principle here that has golost sight of, anthat's the importance of skin in the ga. when you have some of ur own money involved, yopay a lot more attention. lehrer: that's all ahead on tonight's "pbs newshour." jor funding for the pb newshour is proved by: >> what the wod needs now is energy. the ener to get the econy mming again. the ergy to tackle challens like climate change. what if th energy came from an engy company? evy day, chevron invests $62

million ineople, in ideas-- seeking, teaching, blding. fueling growth around thworld to move usll ahead. this ithe power of human energy. chevron. >> what has de grant thornton a truly global aounting organization, withccess to resourcein more than 100 countries? it their global capabilitie or is it their psion for how they ser their clients? grant thornton. >> whamakes us an engine for the economy? plants aoss america. nearly 200,000 jobs created. we seeeyond cars. and monsanto.

d the national science foundation. supporting education and research across all elds of science anengineering. and with t ongoing support of these institutions and foundations. and... this program was madpossible by the cporation for public broadcaing. and by ctributions to your pbs station from viewers likyou. thank you. >> lehrer: senate mocrats moved closer today to fina agreement on healtcare reform. that came amid talk of anoth major compromisecasting aside a oposal to expand medicare. newsur health correspondent betty ann bowser beginour report >> reporter: emeing from an ur-long white house meeting with senate democrats, president oba said they were on the precipice of passg a heth care overhaul.

>> there a still some differces that have to be worked on. this was not a roll ca. this was a broad-bed discussion about how we mo forward. >> reporter: the presint had summoned membe of the entire democrat caucus to work out their differenceand pass legislation before cistmas. >> nowet's be clear. the final bill won't incde everytng that everybody wants. bill can do that. but what told my former colleagues today ithat we simply cannot allow differences over individual elementsf this plan to prevent us from meing our responsibity to solve a longstanding and urgen problem for the american people. >> reporr: the meeting foowed reports that democric leaders may drop a proposal lettingninsured amicans as young as 55 b into medicare. that provision was supposeto replace a vernment-run public insurce option. connticut independent joe

lieberman threatenedo bolt over the medicare buy-in aving democrats one vote short ofhe 60 they need. today he sd he would relent if the provision w indeed dropped. >> if as appears tbe haening the so-called public option government-run surance program is out and e medicare buy-in, which i thought would opardize medire, cost tax payers billio of dollars over the long hau and increase our deficit, is t and there's no otheattempts to bring things like that in, then i'm goi to be in a posion where i can say... i'm going to the sition where i can say what i wanted to saall along and i'm ready to vote r health care refm. >> reporter: liberal senator favor the medica buy-in. although none uld confirm what was agreed to, we virginia senat jay rockefeller descbed the

feeling in the wte house meeting. >> there was the frustrati and angst. everybody has thin they want. th didn't all get what they want. that incdes me big time. >> reporter: even with senor lieberman's opsition seemingly out ofhe way, sticking points remain. onis what language should be in the bill about aborti coverage. the other is is ether the legiation should completely close the so-called donuhole : the medica prescription coverage gap. througut it all, democratic leaders have had to fos on keeping alof their members onoard. reblicans said today none of the chans to the legislation woulsway them back. mirity leader mitch mcconnell. >> what wenow for sure, no matter what kind of deals ar struckehind closed doors, what we know for sure that is bill will include a half trillion dollars imedicare cuts, $400 bilon in new taxes, and higheinsurance premiums f everyone else. th isn't going to change.

that is the prlem that the erican people are fully aware of e polls are overelming. every single polthat's been take every public poll that i've sn for weeks has shown opposition to it >> reporter: andust outside the capital builng today, coervative activists rallied against thhealth care bill agai lehrer: for more on the story now from >> lehrer: a for more on the story w from naftali bendavid, ngressional correspondent fo the "wall street journal and amy walter, editor-ichief of the hotle, the "national journal' political daily. o not rrect say there is a deal, right? >> there'sot a deal quite yet but there's nouestion thathey're getting closer. certainly dropping the medicare buy-in ovision was huge in terms of attcting people like joe lieberman an possibly olympia sw. certainly decratic leaders are pushing r this. th feel they're on the verge of getting it done. >> lehrer: vge, close, amy? >> they have to get somethg done. the thght that this can drag

oumuch longer, i think, for many of these democrats in the nate and quite frankly in t house as well is more problematic to them than having to give ucertain provisions in order get at so-called 60th vote. >> lehrer: we'll getack to lieberman and thmoderates in a mont. buthe liberal democrats, what are ty giving up and how unhappy are th about having to do so? >> wel joe lieberman is defitely part of the story. they're very upset at him r various reason look, when you saw jay rockefeller in that t-up piece, here'somebody who id what i would really want to see is somethg like a medicare buy-in. what we really wted to see was something li a public option lirals recognize this and th have recognized this for some time that getng a bill quires 60 votes. it requires derates who are not fans oa public option. so i thi the question is, how many other tngs can they get from ts to feel good abt it? the other piecof this, too, is that fundamentally these senators have been waing and

members ofongress for a long time to be able to vote and pa something. that thecan call health care reform. they kw that this would be historic. th know that in terms of setting policyor the next how many more year they're the ones sitng at the table doing this. i think that i.. that desire istronger than the frustration about long some of those keylements. lehrer: you've been covering the liebean story heavily thlast several... the lastouple of days or so. at was going on here? why was he..how did he become so importanor was he as important as 's been portraye >> certaly he's made himself important. i mean the are a number of senators, of course, that ca be seeas the 60th vote. 60 of them coulde seen that way. 's had a way of making ovocative statements of announng his opposition to certain things akey times that sm to undermine what setor reed is trying to do just at the moment when most needs his support. the liberals hate the guy. >> lehrer: they don't ke him.

>> they see him as an ablute villain. they've been uncomfoable with himor years. they see this the final straw. e attacks have been fairly virulent. people are tryg to get his fe thrown off of a breast cancer group she'snvolved with. it's psonal. it fierce. it's angry. >> lrer: what finally... if they dislike h so much, why did they finly say, okay, you want that, joe, wel give it to you. >>hey have no choice. they need 60 ves. you need 60 votes the senateo do anything. liberals fl like what they rely wanted was a single-payor system. they didn't get that so they compromised. they were ing to take a blic om. they didn't get at. w they're told you're not tting the medicare buy-in. they're veryrustrated and unhappy. they faced the choice of having health refo something th've wanted for decades or not having it. if you it,ou have to give at up. >> it's re likely than not as we're seeg a lot of these polls comi out for senate

races cong up in 2010 that democrs aren't going to have 60otes in 2011. this could be the only tim if it doesn't get done now i won't happen. >> lehrer: what abouthe other derates besides eberman? ben nelson, anch lincoln. are they okay now becse of this, que, deal? >>hat's what we're all waiting to see. it is funny toort of watch the spotlight move froone whoever the 60th ve is at that moment to theext. it waslympia snow. then it wa ben nelsonor a long time. blanch linco has been in th spotlight. she sort of takes rself out of it. she's not as high prile as some of the others. what we're looking f is blan lincoln from arkansas, ben lson from nebraska still two of t big names that everybodis waiting to see. e one who has popped up cently has been jim web from virginia sply because he's been vote ing with the republicans on a lot of the amendments. there's some concernhat maybe he'sot as strong as we thought could be. he cou be the 60th vote.

>> lrer: when the president said, as we hain a clip after e meeting with the democrats,e said there are still differences. what's he talking about? well, the biggest difference i thinky far has to do with abortion lauage and how tough threstrictions should bon abortion. senator benelson of nebraska who we've be talking about, at is a very big issue for him. with the removalf this public option,t may be the big iruwe fohim. it's unclear how that ll be resolved. ifhey can solve that, they'll reallye pretty much the. there e other issues that have to doith how this is all paid for. there are controversial tas and levys that woulde involved. the two big issu were the public optn and abortion. they've notaken the public option off the tle in the senate but the question mains how they're going to deal with the abortion issue >> lehr: what do you hear about th, amy? what kind of dl could be structured on the abtion issu >> ben nelson.... >> lehrer: lay out whathe issue is. >> t issue is in the start we heard abouthis originally inhe house. it is about

the abilitfor a governnt program and how it would pay for not pay for inhis case abortions. doomen have the choice of being able to essentiay pay for their n abortions if they're getting federal. any kind of federal fuing. the reality of it doest seem as much of the issue as e politics of is. right? which is that what you'vseen is big pro-choi groups like naral and planned renthood tang very strong positions on ts, asking their peb members, those who suprt them in congss to take strong pitions and the right toife community taking strong positions on is. it seems to be happeni at least with neln and i think wee been see inning in the last few days is hseems to thk i might not get exactly what i want. ere is already a vote on that amendment. it was voted dn. he had not said that's t deal-killer r me. he still open finding some wato do this. i don't know howhey do this.

>> lehrer: what woulyou add to that? >> this whole thinis a giganticube in many ways. if they lose nelson maybe ey can get snow. >> lehr: she is pro-choice and uld have no problem. she goes on the other issue. >> right. althgh she has said she would pport a public option as lg as it was something triggered only underertain circumstans. there's myri issues. there's 60 senors they have to put together. some people want somhing but not other things. it's harry reid 's job, incredibly difficult task assembling this zzle that is going to mage to get 60 peop to vote yes on the floor in t next couple week it's very hard inch by inch i think they' gettg there. >>ehrer: amy, is it a given that the only potential r a republican vote iss, in fact, olyma snow. >> it sure seems that wa was interesting that senator susan colls was standing with e lieberman in th senate piece. shdoesn't sound to be very intereed in supporting this. she soundsery reluctant. you hearsenator mcconnell saying we have 40 votes against this bill.

it's not happening. >> reporter: is itossible or even constructive at thi point to look at the poibility of when there could be a fin vote? >> yeah. i think, you kno they clearlhave a plan. they he a schedule. whether they stick to th hedule is an open question. they really feel like th want thave this thing signed by the president by thstate of the union address which i in latjanuary. to do that certa things have to happen at certain tim. at the need to pasit through the senate by thend of the year. of crse there will be an agreement between the hous and the sete. they need to pull that off. th the two houses have to vote ain in january. so that's the schedule. it's a very important to tm to stick to th. th want the president to be able to get up at his ste of the union and say weromised change. i've delivered i i've de something that no president hadone for a centur they want to sta talking about jobs and the econo. asong as they're talking abt health care they're talkg a lot less by jobs. aftejanuary they feel like they need to turto jobs as on as they can. e schedule is very important to them. that's why they're pushing s hard right now. >> exactly right >> lehrer: y agree?

>> absolely. >> lehrer: thank you bh very much. >> thanks. >> lehrer: now f the other brown: now, for some of the day's other storie over to hari sreivasan in our newsroom. hari? >> sreenivasan: it was aeadly dain both pakistan and afghanistan, as suicide ca bombin rocked both countries. central pakistan, an explosion ripped art a market. the blast killed at leas33 people and wounded 60 mo. and in kabul, afghanistan, aar bomber blew himself up outde the home of a rmer vice presidt. at least eight people died there. they didot specify the money be spent on ra kit testing. thlaw was named for debbie smith, a rape ctim who waited yrs until her attacker was found. >> each box holdwithin it vital evidence that is crual to the safety women everywhere. statistics prove tt the

average rapist will pe 8 to 12 tim before he is caught. how many of these pes could be pvented? i mely existed for six-and-a-half years waiting for my rapist be identified, trying my best to devin e und of his voice in my ear. >> senivasan: new legislation would quire the federal government to collt sting on untested rape kits. some 800,000 des of swine flu vacce for young children have been relled. the food a drug administtion said the poncy of the shots had dropped since th were ipped out but fda officials said children who ceived the shs are still protected. that mea they won't have to be vaccinated ain. re than 50 million roman-sty window shades and ll-up blinds are also bei recalled. the consumer productafety commission saitoday they might rangle young children who ge entangled in theords. eight sucheaths have been reported since 2001. the ndow coverings were sold at major retaile including

walmart, potte barn, and j.c. penney. the washingtond.c., city council voted overwhelming today toegalize gay marriage, starting in march. the bi now goes to mayor adrian fenty, who's expectedo sign it. from therethe measure goes to congss, which has the final say over the disict's laws. levision evangelist oral robertdied today at a hospital in nport beach, california. he sufred complications from eumonia. starting in e 1950s, roberts eated a multimillion-dollar ith healing ministry. he also founded a private christian unersity bearing his name in tulsa, oklahoma. oral rerts was 91 years old. in economic news, the bor departmentnnounced wholesale prices re nearly 2% last month, much re than expected. that raised fears of inflati on wall reet. the dow jones industri average lost 49 pots to close at 10,452. the nasdaq fell points to close at 2201. those arsome of the day's main stories. i'll be ck at the end of the program wi a preview of what

you'll find tonight on the newsur's web site. but fonow, back to jeff. >>rown: and still to come on the newshour, the ruggle for a globallimate deal in copeagen; everest's melting glaciers; d why one former treasury secrery says big banks ouldn't be bailed out. that folws our coverage of a w plan to move some inmates currently he at guantanamo bay to a facility inhe midwest. margaret warnehas our report. >> warne president obama mod closer today to making od on his promise to close the prison at antanamo bay, cuba he ordered the federal government tacquire an underused statprison in rurathompson, illinois. the pl is to transfer up to 100 guantanamo terror suspts to the thompsocorrectional center 150 miles west chicago along the miissippi rir. illinois was officially notifiedn a letter from the secretaries of statedefense and homeland security us the attoey general and director

of national telligence. after a briefing at thwhite house, governor paquinn and senar dick durbin told reporters why they enthusiastically back the move. >> this is a great opportuty. our ate unemployment numbers, the most recent es, were 11%. in some parts of the state like northwesterillinois, even higher. people are desperate f good jobs. this jobs we're talkg about here are some of the best . over 3,000 n employees in this area, half of them om local people. >> warner:ut the senate's top republican mch mcconnell said the plan wod make illinois a target fo terrorists. >> gitmo-norths something the american peoe are early opposed to. it is outrageouso suggest th this is a good sort of federal government jobs program. warner: he also notedhat current law rs bringing to u. shores any long-term prisoners eaarked for indefinite dettion. activist groups o have urged guantana's closure applauded

the decision to move se detainees but they eressed reservations about theate of those prisoners who en't slated for civilian or military trials. devin chaf is with human rits first, an advocacy group in washiton. >> we armainly concerned that detainees brought to e thompson correction ceer ma be ctinued to be detained indefinitely withoutrial. to do so would reay fail to accomplish t objectives of closing the gunamo bay facili. >> warner: the 1600-bed thompsonrison was built eight years ago at a cost $145 milon. but it currentlyouses only 200 inmates. the prpect of filling it appeals to thoson village's president when federal officials toured the site la month. >>rom what i've heard so far thompson would be ev more secure. that's what would make m sleep better tonht. >>arner: today some townspeoplsaid it's time to put the ison to go use. >> ihink it's a good thing.

it will bring jobs to e area. the onomy will be boosted. >> warner: but others inhe area wermore skeptical. as far as the residents are concerned the town, sure, i'm su it will be great for them. i don'know. my comment aut it relates to the idea of him being... any of them being heren the first plac i don't think theyelong here. >> wner: wtever it does for thompson, thtransfer plan, if carried outwould shply reduce the inmate population at guantana to roughly 100 detainees. but administration officls have acknowledged ey won't meet the presint's initial deadline for closing iby januar now, more onoday's announcement. we g that from lynn sweet, washington bureau chief d columnist for the "chicagoun- times." lynn, lcome back to the program. there were sever states sort of in the runng for this. how did the admistration decide on this facility illinois? >> well, talk about having a home state advantage. that would be . the objections in so of the other stat, michigan, kansas earlier in the running.

when thedministration got serious abt this in november , latectober, the path for illinois was jt cleared for them. senator rbin, the senior senatofrom illinois, number two man in the senate, democric governor were champions of theroject. so werthe people from thompson whichou just showed. therwas just an easy glide path forcquisition of this little useprison. >> warner: when administrati officials sathis is going to be super secur how secure? mean, what extra measures e they taking? >> they' going to build another serity wall around e prison. the prison alreadyas built as a maximum-securitprison. they have a whole st of upgrades tt they're going to do to put even more security and more cstruction around e complex than what they have n. warner: and theefense department will actually r that part of the prin, i understand. >> right. this is somethg that th

administtion has said from the beginning at about 75% of the builng will just be a regular fedel prison run by the bureau of prisons. that will be the entity at wi actually buy the prison. 25% ofhe complex or so will be leased to the defense department. they'll run e back part of e building that's used to house the deinees. >> warner: expin which prisoners are at least tended by the administration to be trsferred because they're ughly about half of the 21currently remain at get mow. >> what's interesting ishat the white house refuses to actually say howany people are pontially ... we're talking about. senator durbin and mbers of the ilnois congressional delegation havgotten briefings this. for so reason the white house doesn'even want to say. senator durbin has sai100. the illino delegation when they got a briefg recently wee told between 50-100. is is the category of people th... of the 200 or so in

guantanamo nowsome will be depoed. five we know are gng to new york. those accused in the 9/1 attacks. some will be tri in other fedel courts. this remaing group, the ones at will need for the time being neher be tried nor port reasonable doubt the ones we're tking about. >> warner: i gather the e slated f military commisons. they'rgoing to hold those militaryommissions at the facility. >> rig. but that is a group th could be determined once they're there. the determinatns won't all necessarily be done. d the commissions will be held at thfacility. >> warne now, what about is flap that seems to have develoor seems to be there about this categy of isoners that the president once sd there would be some who would be unt-able because eith the evidence ainst them is tainted or would coromise intelligence methods. senatomcconnell is saying yocan't transfer that group here to thunited states

under the current la is tt right? if so, then whatind of a fight can ey expect on capitol hill to t that changed? >> well, the administratn told me when i checkedn this tonight th congress needs to lift that striction that i now in place on bringing t untry-able, so-called try-able detainees. at is one point of a battle that congrs may engage in. you saw the mcconnell statements. certnly the republicans have lined up, many of themgainst this pposal. there al has to be an appropriation purchase the pris which will be at least $145 milli. you also have to havthe money to stafft up. i think congress has a f eny points into this project. >> warner: now, senator durb and the vernor quinn said today outside the white use there's great uny behind this back in illins or certainly fr the area. yet the republics had a press conferce where they had a nuer of members from illinois sing this is a terrible idea. how controversial is this

e state of illinois? >> well, it depes on what regionou're talking about. to have all the ess conferen you're talking about up on the hi where a string of republican membe who banded together to prote is. you also have a few potentl inhe democratic party line support on this. there'a big governor and senate race there. i would say it broken down into some rtisan divides but ifou look at the northwest part of the state where the are ople who will get jobs who ed them, there is no contversy over this. this is... this s not become a hot button issue in the state so far. there are a lot of conces about saty. i think that is the job ofhe, you know, ofhe white house an supporters what people prably do not realize until today when the whithouse said that they do now intendo have these miliry tribunals held at thompson it reins to be seen

what the reaction iso that developmt. >> warr: lynn sweet, chicago sun times. thk you so much. >> thank you >>rown: and we move on to copenhagen, wherray suarez is coring the climate summit this week. only a feways remain, and there are still very bigivides betweericher and poorer countries; andetween china, the largest greenhouse gas poller, and the u.s., which was the biggest until rently. ray gins with this report. >> suarez: a chine special representive to the climate talks committed china greenhouse gas reducti but rejectany efforts like those demanded by the united stes to check china's compliance. and warned against using trade as a weapon, sugsted by congress's climate change bill passed in sepmber. >> we opposehe actions of

any country that sets up n trade baiers under the cuse of protecting the planet. >> suarez: and yu id he's keenly aware, as arehe other negotiators th time is ruing out for an agreement. t he said the industrialized countrie long-term, heavy users of fossil fuels, an't even facing up to their responsibilitiesow. he switched to english to ma s point. >> witno regrets they didn't evenome up with something ke, "sorry, i failed." it's a fact of life you bett live setback. >> suarez: yu sa he remains timistic a worthwhile deal can be reached before more than 100 heads ostate arrive later this weealong with the coinued tensns between china and the u.s., another primary pillar of these tas is the confrontati between rich and poor oras citizens of less developed cotries would have it, between the countries that created the problem d the countries

ffering climate changes worst effects. today testony from a peru viian o watched the glaciers melt. ana pacific islanders who may become theirst countries toisappear from world maps, a bangladeshy driven from he land by rising salt ter. ana ugandan farmer who has tried to feed a large faly as too little d then too much rnfalls. >> mostly 2007 that's wh we changed from nmore rain to drastic ra, from no more rain to fld, from no more sunshine to drought . there has been a lot of chges in climate . >> suarez: and speakg to a packed meeting rooat the copeagen conference, this woman told her audience at fairness demands that the wod's poor receive support from the industrialized wod

to dl with a life-and-death challenge she did nothg to create. >> the reason why we nd this money because it is increasi day and night because the climate changes. and ofhich the climate changethey're the ones making us to suffer. e effects of climate change. >> suaz: former irish president mary robinn and retired south african archbishop desmo tutu were on hands to adtheir own calls for the wealy industrialized countrys to ke changes now, from self-interest er bit as much as from charity. >>f we don't get an reement here, we have posed an enorms threat to our one world. and i have four grandchildren who wille in their 40s in 2015. i not no an irish granother who doesn't want them to have a safe world. american grandmothers doot kn that their grandchildren will have a sa world.

>> suarez:ot so fast says bjn, the danish teacher and writer oenvironmental issues is a cmate change skeptic but not the way that's usual. maybe he shod be called a climatchange conference skeptic. >> maybe it would be a good thing for climate if this meetg was to fail because fundamentally it seemso me we're ju doing the same faed strategy for e last 18 years. we'rpromising to make grand carbon cuts d then we won't them. >>uarez: he said large-scale d to the world's poorest is no longer popur so the world's advocates for the or are just redfting their demands using clime change instead. he said if you really wa to help this woman d her ville in uganda, fight porty. clearly we need to deal with her problem b also clearly the majority of her problems are notaused by climate ange. ey're caused by simple poverty. every time we casave one person from dying from

malnutrition throu climate change policies the same amount of money ent on malnutrition policies coul save 5,000 people. >> srez: while you're fighting povty, he says, work on research and devepment that will make new energy sources fully competitive withossil fuels. oncehey are you won't need a conference and treaties to force untries to be cleaner. speaking to the conferen this evening, nobel peace laureateenyan environmental tivist said the industrializ world doesn't just feel theffects of climate change t same way the wod's poorest countries do and may thebe reluctant to sign nding agreements. >>herefore, it is up to the develong world to convince th thathe threat is real. despe their perceived ability at the moment. suarez: like every promint speaker in copeen

hagen has said publicly an agreemt by friday is still possible. >> brown: is a shortime ago i talked to ray in copenhage ra fairly blunt talk there from the chinese representative. the chinese have said ey've set a target f reducing greenhouse gas emissions s now the ise is how to make sure ty're following thugh? >> suarez: well, the unite stat would like to put in verifition architecture so at people could check whether all countries nojust china are living up tohe commitments they madon the internet internaonal stag china sa in response, hey, look we set very ambitious targets. we're investing a lot in alternative fuels and other alternate energy sources. it's reallfor them a matter of national ide and really automy and sovereignty that says, , we've set the targets and we're gog to keep them. >> brown: they ao said in ur interview that they were at least questioni at the same time whetr the u.s. was living up to its cmitments.

>> suarez:ot just the u.s. but the whole dustrialized worl. a lot of countries made assurances at the kyoto roun in 1997 that they sily didn't follow through on in the earlr years of this centur so almoswith a little impatience and little testyness, the chise negotiator pointed thaout and said, hey, lk, you, your cotries, did not live up to wh you told the world you were going to do. d now you want to put a verification rime on us?" he was really anyed that in effect the wesrn and industriized world negotiator said, well, the fact that weidn't live up to those past assurces, the pasts past. let's start fr square one with newly set baselines, no the basenes we were using in 19. >> brown: thers also that key continng issue between th well, how much the rier nations will hp out the poorer nions to implement any change what's going on ther >> suarez: everybody on al

sides of this argumentoncede that even if all emiions were ended today, global warming, becau of the built-up sources in the stem, would continue on for years toome. even if there s no further co-2 so the poorer cotries are saying, look, we're the es with so lile resources that we're unableo adapt insued our economie adapt our agriculture and ving places to thinewer, hotter, dryer and wetter plat. so there should beransfers from those countries tt are causing the warming tohose that a suffering the most om it. so far, thers been no... there have been me tentative stabat it by the industrial countries. there have been some assurances knomoney would be forth coming but no specif dates, no ecific amounts, no specific duration for a program at would begin now. >> brown: i gather that day

a aft circulated there that left out spific emission targets and financinamounts and mechisms. >> suarez:ll this stuff sounds vertechnical but really it boils do to this. how much of whatases where and most important what yea are you going use as your basene? are yogoing to use 1990 and say creases would be measured fm what we were already emitng in 1990? e you going to use 2000 or even this year and sayhat reductionsave to be based on what you're emitti this year? the inese, for all their complaining about the st's failure meet s targets, artrying to use 1990, a time when china was a ver different cotry. mu less industrialized , as itbaseline for computing future allowans for emissions into the atmosere. >> brown: so slow prress at best so far there. now weoth have been to international conferences before. uslly a lot of stuff is

pre-cooked, ght? there's a lot th has already been settledn or agreed to especially when yohave a lot of world leaders aut to show up. what's your sensof what's going on in th case? >> suarez: well, today t execute director of the copenhagenalks and the head of the u.n. climate ange ency held a news conference together wre they assured the worls press that the negotiions were continuing, were on ack. progress was being made. even though drafts were bein circulated witjust brackets around wre the numbers should be,here was a sense thathose two very important offices tried to give the st of us ththings would take on a faster pace once the ads of state started to arve in their numbers starting tomorrowvening. >> bro: what did people tell u privately though? are they as hopeful? >> well, private people are sang they just can't believe th everything can be wrapped up by friday. and the talk now is shifti to wt an acceptable posture

would be for the rld's leads to leave this place with something rathethan nothing. what the somethi would be and how prerable that would be to, in effect, shrugging your sulders, admitting failure and going home. there has been so muchalk cong out of copenhagen this week abouthe dire situation of the world's aosphere, the world's watersand what's coming down the road, that t in effect leave heempty handed would be most politically unacceptable certnly in many countries th are both commit to redung their emissions and are also now rt of wrapping their heads around the fact that there right in the cross hairs of what's ming if the cmate scientists' projections are right. >> brown: nice to ta to you. we'll stay in touch this wk. >> suarez:hanks a lot, jeff. >> lehrer: ando another climate ory. this one comes from the

himalayas, whereome scientists are glaciers are now melting at an alarmingate. james mates independent televisionews reports. >> repter: mount everest is is as high, bleak and as cold a region asou will find anywhere oearth. it see impossible that here of a places the ice frozen on to the slopes of thes giants cou be melting. but this is the biggt glacier in nepal ithe shadow of everest. its surface scarred with lakes and meltater. and is is the himalayan winter. pictures like these showhy people in china and indi worry about where future their frh water will come from. >>y the middle of this century i thinthere could be a big leak here. no more icleft. >> reporter:lacierologist has be studying thiglacier for more than a cade. we walked across aocky more an that vers the ice. pools of standing wateto an ice cave. the sust sign that this glacier is in big ouble.

a healthglacier flows like a slow-moving river of ice. the fact that we can work ou way through this froze catacomb is a sign iis stionary and roting from the inside. >> take a little care. >> reporte the startling beauty of the ice passage inside is deceive. these ve been carved by melt water from the ponds a lakes we saw on the surfacworking its way deep down intohe glacier itself. >> the blocks that we're standing on herethey've fallen fm the walls. these were all in the ceilg once. these have collapsed frothe ceiling.

in these caves.... >> reporter: wre seeing here a close-up view of the dth of a glaer. >> exactly. it is st collapsing in on itself. >> reporter: as weead deeper into the cave were forced on to our hands andnees. the further we go the mo convincehe and his team become that without a substantial fall i temperates here at least 10 to 15 kilometers this enorus glacr is finished. >> it is quite car what is happening here. what isn't yet clear ihow serious it i ere are some scientists who are ve worried about what will happen whenll this fresh water locked up in i these glaciers is is no longer available to feed t rive of asia. others believe that th is alarmist. doug b is one who shys away from extravaga claims. >> one casay if these gliers disappear then there's a prlem. but we need much me detailed work to done today. exactly wh the impact will be in a paicular area. >>eporter: is is it important that wk is is

done? >> absolely. vitally important that that rk is done. many many spectacular clms many alarmt claims are made about the possib impact of climate change. these of course are possibilities but they neeto be backed up wh hard scientificvidence. >> reporter:hat's something that the governmt in copenhagen oht to be thinkingbout. >> absoluty right. we neeto be sure. sce stories won't do anybody any good. >> lehrer:e'll have more on the story all ek. the copenhagen story alleek, both on-air and onne. ray wille back with another report tomorronight. >> brownfinally tonight, how big is too b? at the white hse yesterday, president obama pued bank c.e.s on lending practices and bonuses. but as banks have merged and consolidated during the st year of financial isis, the worry at some may be "too big to fail" has only grown. here's our ecomics correspondent, pl solman, as he continues his rorting on "makinsense of financial news."

>> here are lot of memories. >>eporter: george shultz in a stanford university conference room ash in memorabili >> a picture of useeting th president obama in the oval office. >> rorter: elder statesmen, classically trned economist. >> this is an early editn of adam smi's wealth of nations. reporter: the conservative shultz doesn go back that far but heerved republican presidents from the '5 to the '80s. >> president rgan was my favorite. the thing aboupresident reagan w he was comfortable with himself. >> reporter: now 89 shultzs a stinguished fellow at hoover institution where of late he's been pdering the problem banks deemed too big to fail. a recent quote, if ty're too big to fail, make them sller he said. we wand to know more. at's the basic problem, as you see it, with finanal institions at this point in time? >> in the first plac if somebody is known they wilbe

bailed out, well, ey do excesse risk. because ey're doing it on the tax payers' llar. the whole syem is badly damaged en bailouts occur. it takes all of the accountability out othe syem. d the market system depends on aountability. so we have to degn a system sonybody in it can fail. >> reporter: d you run into thisn your... some of your past liv? or is this a new phemenon? >> oh, no. this is something that youee inate lot of settings. i've run into the sa problem before. long aut august or so of 1968 , a strike of the long shoremen sharts on the eastern gulf coast. presidenjohnson thinks that will creata national emergency. he enjoins the strike. that decision is aealed to the supreme court. fast track. the supreme court agre with the presidt.

so the strikis stopped. it startin again somewhere around january 1or something of969. >> reporter: less than aeek later shultz was srn in as president nixon's secretary labor. >> so i nt to the president. i sa to him, mr. president, your pdecessor was wrong. and the preme court was wrong. is strike will create a lot of mumbling aroun but it will not be a nationality emergency. if y stay out of it, you teach people a b lesson. thathey have to take responsibilityor themselves. heung in. we did g it semgtsed. >> reporter: t following ar as the first director of the office omanagement and budget, shultz faced an ev bigger cris. the faure of the pen central railro. >> they deserved to fail. they mismanaged thr affairs. arthur bns was chairman of the federal resee board.

he was very upsethat if they failed it woulhave a bad effect on the finaial system. so bad that he had someh arranged -- i never could understand how-- bailout , massivamount of money for those dayso bail them out. >> reporter: bailout the pen central. >> bail out the pe central. so i think this is a lousy idea. i'm arguing withrthur burns and half of me is saying t myself, what am i ing arguinwith arthur burns about e financial system? he knows more about it tn i do. and in an odd moment aan walked in and said, . president, the penn central in itsnfinite wisdom has ju hired your old law rm to represent them in this matter. under thcircumstances, you can't touch this with a tefoot po." so no bailout. penn australiaed ... central failed.

dominos fell. >> reporter: did they thk they might have be bailed ouby the government? >> i'm sure they did. >> reporter: so we have th long shoreman's strike, penn central. plenty of examples. bring us to the presen why did everyone then prume that financial institution were going to bailed out whenhis current crisis started to happen? >> wl, you have to ask the people whoere participants questions like that. r me sitting back it didn't seem tme that any sense of a strategy of what they we doing. thereby letting peoplenow in finaial markets how they were going tbe behave and how they were ing to react to tngs. >>eporter: but once they're confronted with the terror of a froz, locked market where nobody willend to anybody else and my credit card mit not work going down the store, well, they're afrai that thawill happen throhout the economy. they felt they had to

something, n >> i think if you lookt the kinds of iicators that people try to judge panic by, it spreads a things like thatwhat you see is that it was after the cretary of treasury and chairman of t fed went beforthe congress and said the sky is lling, we need $700 billion , and wee not too clear on just what we' going to use it for. here the guys in arge, they think the sky is falling i don't think it a good idea to say tngs like that. it's aood idea to keep the sky fromalling in the first place. >> reporter: do u think that large financiainstitutions that are now deemed toe too big toail should be, if nothing else can bdone, broken up? no. i think you ould ask yourself, what is itbout thr bigness that causes the problem? how can we improve matte. >> reporr: so how can we?

>> number one, study whayou mean by the risk you fin 2, figure out how u're going to do somethg about that risk if it materialis. 3, take a lesson from ople who make christmas tree lights. it used to be thathe lights you string on a christmas ee were osuch a nature that if one we out they all went out. and thlonger the string, the harder it was to identify th lb that went out. so harder it was to fix . so if yohave all of these fay financial instruments securityizing mogages, derivatives of all kds, you put all this in thpot, you are in effect maki the christmas tr light longer and longer and longer. why can't we do what the christmatree light manufacturers do that is, disaggrete these things denk them. maybi have a business and i

have a l of parts of it but ey all don't have to be arranged in such a way tha i'm liable for everything. >> reporter: serial ring i think it was called. >> so i can have a bsidiary that has a limited rource to me or no rourse to me. >> reporter: you mean can't draw on your money if itets into trouble >> exactly. i adveise that. here's this unit that isoing do credit default swaps and yei'm running it. but it's a stand-ane operation. erybody who takes part should knothat. >> repter: if a.i.g.has the financial products divisio at has no claim on the insurance compana.i.g.. >> y got it. i thinyou have to say to yourself, whdo organizations t big? beuse they get advantages out of that. but there's alsoore social ri for that bigness. so we'reoing to impose

capitarequirements and leverage requiremes on your operatio that are more severe than for a small gu >> reporter: the me money yore going to have to set aside inase something bad ppens, capital requirements. >> exactly. >> reporter:everage requirements you can borrow too mu multiple owhat u've got. >> there's an undeying prinple here. it's gotten lost sight o that's the iortance of skin in t game. when youave some of your own moy involved, you pay a lot more attention. >> rorter: george shultz, thank you very much. >> thank you >> brown: again, t major developments of the day. senate democratsoved closer to final agreement on health ca reform. it was widely reported proposal texpand medicare will

beropped. and president ama ordered the government to buy an undused state pris in illino. up 100 detainees from guannamo bay,uba, may be transferred there. the newshour conties always online hari sreenivasanin our newsroompreviews what's on our wesite. hari >> sreenivasanon our web site tonight, watch our intview th secretary of education ar duncan about neways to improve chdren's financial literacy. dunc also gives a progress report on the "race to theop program" where stas are competing for stimul dollars. find local reaction tooday's announcement about moving so gutanamo detainees to an illinois prison. on paul solman's "king sense" page, our series on the onomic year ahead continues. tonight, what will bmost surprising in 2010? and there's anpdate on the drug war in mexico fm a reporter whoas embedded with the mexican mitary. that's part ofur collaboration th global post, an international ne web site. all that and more on our web site, nehour.pbs.org. jeff? >> brownand that's the nehour for tonight.

i'm jeffy brown. lehrer: and i'm jim lehrer. we'll see you online, anagain here tomorroevening. thank you, andood night. major nding for the pbs newshour is provided by:

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