>> charlie: welcome to e broaast. tonigh mark pincus. >> i think there is a social media revolution going on rit now. and i think that we are anging ou mea consumption habits at a rate that we haven't done even th the adnt of the internet. think it's going on right now. i thinkhe people regularl are consuming media while th're at work and while they're doing otr activities in a tab in their browser or on their smart phon and i think media will change in order to thrive i think media will figure ou how to enterin me in severalinute bites and ways thatre more social. charlie: we continue with michl specter the author of "denialism." >>veryone knows wha denial

is, you're so depressed thatou n't rlly face the facts. you hide, you pretend thing en't true. th happens to everyone. it's normal. may even be healthy for a little while. when society does it, i don't thk it ever is healthy. i think therare number of issues now, particularly in scientific life where we are in denial as a culture. >> we conclude this evening with the architect annelle sell cover. >> you start with listening very carefully to wh the mandate is. unlikeome architects, ours t an archicture of gnd stures or monumental statements. t rather st of of subtle inrventions. >> chaie: next. ♪

if you've had a coke in the last 20 years ( screams ) you've had hand in giving colle scholarships... and support to thousands of ouration's... most promisingtudents. ♪ ( coca-cola 5-note mnenic ) captioning sponsored by rose communicatis from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> charlie: mark pincuss here, the soci gaming compy zynga, behd some of the pular happens for games. among them is farmful allows to

mana a virtual rm. 66 million mohly activeseers withuseers with farms at is more than the total number of farms in the united states. zynga's mes are part of growin world of apps available on smart phos and social networking sites lik facebook. analts say the as' economy is worth bilon today. and could be headed to four billion by 2012. i pleased to have rk pincus at the table r the fir time. one point, personal interest, i have smallinvestment in a fm th insted in h company. so i'm pleased to talk to mark pincus about wt's gog on in the world of apps are welcome. >> thank you. >> tell me what do y.it's reallo the kinds of board games that we all grew up playing with our friends and famils where the game was really just a context r us to be social. that's really what's goingn on social networks and sma phones

today. thate are all getting connected and 's like a cockil party which ally arted with friendster whic is the first tim we all got together online. if you remember, people complained there's notng to d. now at we're all together on th social network and so facebook was one of the firsto start to a more dimension t that experiee with fees and pictures. wh they opened up their platform and then others li myspace and the iphone opened up, it gave independent third party me developers a chance, like us, a chanc to build ges that their users could use t interact. >> charlie: you decid to start this company. you saw what opportunity? >>ell, for me, i had started social network, actuallyefore facebook called tribe.net which failed. what i saw during that tim was that people did need sething to do wi each other.

once facebook opened up their platform t third parties, i immediely thought the opportunity i was most excited abouwas to provide achance for people tolay games together. >> charlie and did you have any idea othe potentia of it all? >> i'd say, at fit we didn't realize how big socl ging could be. but once we launche our first game and we saw ho viral it uld be, how many people wld wa to come and play games together, we started to se how big the audience cld get. >> charlie: those people who correspond in face groups, how much time they play games versus what arrk itself. >> hi don't have any pticular data ihink only the networks have that. we've hrd that peopl in aggregate may be spending as ch as half of the time on theseetworks pying games. >> chlie: tell me about

mafia world. >> sure, mafia wars is a game ere you form a maf with you friends and you -- it's kind of like a game like world of war craft butt happens in text and pictures instead of immersive vironment. the kedifference is tt you areelying on your friends. collaborating together throughout the game. there's featuslike declare war where i somebody attacks yo you can declare war on them and tells l your friends to come help you. people have taken it to this much morextreme place where they have actually created whole clans at canhave thoands of members to them. a game like cafe world wectually created one f you -- >> charlie: great >> thi is charlie's cafe and if y look, you're th cook, i'm a waite hillary clinton is a waiter anbama is a waer. so, you areirtually plang with all of us.

and you can hire us to work i your restaurant,ou can come to ou cafes, u can gift dishes to eh other. everybody is building out their staurants, sometis in competitio often in collabations. >> charl: talk aut virtual gifts. >> sure. gifting was early on when facebook opened,the platform, fting became aeryopular activity. ifou think about what is going on in social network, i li to say that you're in a game of building your social capit. so, if you're playing the ga of facebk or mpace you're building outour network and yore actually doing things that elevate your stat with all of the other people. d gifts is a terrificay to build your socl capital with pele. virtual giftare much easier and quick tore give people than ups-sed gifts. >> chaie: right. for your company you look ead.

is games between social network members the princie sourceof revenue or do you see this having so potential that you -- hasn't fully developed yet. >> you may see something i don't but we are excited abt the fure of social games and rtual goods as a revenue model within socialgames. sowhat i mean by that is, our users, these are free games. and one to two percent of the users will spend money in the games. and they can spend them on virtual goods, virtual gifts w ju started selling. and that has been a revenue model that has enabled our company be profitable for eight straig quarters. and re very blish onhe growth that have busins. and we're not really looking for otr business. >> crlie: tend to your own knitting as somee just said. what's the sizof the app market tay? >> there are different ways to think about it.

there really three ways. you can think about it in tes of the numbe of apps that have been downloaded. andhere's lots estimates, i think it's probably something in the range four billi apps have been downloaded. >> charlie: that's a business th was not in existence h many years ago? >>hree years ago. >> charlie: tee years ago. totallnew business. >>eah. >> charlie: go ahea >> second is you can look at it byumbers of users again, there's all kinds of estites. but people think out of the 400 million users o facebk more than half of hem regularly use apps androbably two-thir have participated. % of iphone users download games and apps. so i think they're supposed to grow to million use. i think the are several hundred milln ers interactg with apps today. third, you c think of itin terms of the revenues, which is go way to thinkbout bunesses. and from revenue perspecti, i thk people a estimating more than twoillion in

revenues next year. >> charlie: what's the prpect say for fiv years out >> well, youan look to the asian market where it's not so much apps as it is free games with virtual goo. that's aeady several blion dollars. i think most analysts predict thathe worldwide market will grow to north ofeight bill join revenues in the next coupleof years. d i think wll see, i think it could grow to 15 billion in e next five years. >> charlie: you hav no particular interest ingames but just looking for entreprenrial opportunies? >> i saw tha social games looked le aerfect portunity that could be launched becausef social networ. >> charlie: h much of it is played by smart phones, on smart phones? >> it's actuall amaller perctage. it's maybe --i'd guessive or x million people a day that might be playing ges on smartphones. charlie: how many on computers?

>> i'd say that's probably thrange ever 60-70 million a day. >> charlie: wl that equation chae over the next five years? >> yeah. it's changing rapidly. with the i known and ipod touch -- iphone, that market is growingncredibly quickly. i expect that the rest of the phone market will cat up. >> charlie: he droid and everody else will ben there with appsnd comting, right? >> yeah. >>harlie: the petration of smartphones will cnge the world that we know in what way? >> i think that the petration of the blackberry has already chand our world in a way th wee not even complete aware of yet. i wa walking ound central park thiseekend and lerally i'd say seven out of ten people were on their ackberries. and -- >> charlie: bckberries, specific, no iphonesut blackberries? >> mostly blackberries bualso iphone and i believe that it'snot all bad.

i bieve that what's happened because of these smart devices, we can be productive all the time now. and so we can be on e-mail, we can be doi business, we can be social, playing games i all the nooks and cnnies of our te. and it actually raises our opportunity cost o doingother activities. it's hard now toit on our ailane read a book wn you nbe on th accident. >> crlie: how is the wld changing? whfactors beyond that are at play that we ght to understand because it's your busins to understand those factors? >> well, think there is a soci media revolutio going on rightow. and i think that were changing our media consumption habits at a rate that weaven't done en with the advent of the internet. and i thk it's ing on right now. i think th people regularly are consung media wle

th're at work and while they're doing other acvities in tab in tir browser or on their smartphone. and i think media willhange in order to thrive i thin media wi figure out how to entertain me in several minute bis and in ways that are more sial. so, more tha my friend talkg about a charlie rose show, and i might trip or what i call a social bread crumb. i might be more liky to find your show in my news fee on facebook or twitter because a friends talking about it. than going back to your website. >> charlie: exactly that's one phenonon happening. give mesome others of how the ndscape is changing. >> well, i thi that me and more people are starting their web experien because of an sm ssage or something they sawn twitterome page or faceboo

home page not necessarily startingt google yahoo! >> charlie: that's huge thing. to say thatis a huge thing. >> i hope i'm right. >> charlie: but it' amazing to me, rather than googling for sothing or finding it on google becau of twitte becausof febook,because somebody mentionsomething and that's within yo worldf terest and fridship. you are going to goook at it. >> yh. i thk you may get to a public web and social web and you'll use bot they will interact with each her. >> charlie: efine how the o would be different. >> the public web expeence is what you have toda it isoing to a destation like google or ebay or amaz. youdon't have to be logged in. d you're just goingto book an air flight or whaver. and the socialeb experience is a logged in eerience where the website that youre going to knows something about you.

>> chaie: with are we in terms of the digit revolution? we're very early, 10% in. when i started this company i woke up in 2007 and i was amazed that i could count t numberof major consumer net, inteet bran on one hand. and they were a search engine, a gage sale site wit ebay. classified listings, aportal. itfuls amazing tmethat there s only five or six. rr and today? >> charlie: and today? >> seven. >> if you are starting out today. if you wer oking for other things thayou thought were exting and ha auge future, give us some indicatn wherever they are. >> sure. i'm turne on by all of the things that we do inigh volume on the internet tod that could be recreat in social context. my wife has lached private le site for home dec ims,

ich i won't plug. but -- exrr a priva sale - >> in other words. you championship her site. ery day they show you deals at are limited te oers -- >> charlie right. >> it's alternative way to shop. now, e-cmerce could happe througa social lens. i could g to either facebooor a site that is socially enaed and could find deals on black fridayr whatever through wha my friends haveone. i could find my travel through a social lens. it's n always obvious whereit will be better, that's the opportunity for entrepreneurs. but ithink there's a shift in people's habs, they're spendi time onocially enabled sites. looking foruch quicker short formndometimes mobile option

r entertainment. i think that they're going to have neweb services. there's an opportunity t be my trel site. >> charl: are you in it for the money? are you in it because of some other reason? >> that's a great question. m interested in creating wt both o our friend bi gordon calls internet treasure. i think that we will be remembered in th point in history for the great consumer brand internet services at were creed that eance people's lives, n me action n, like gobble, like facebook. as an entrepreneur, that is the opportunity to potenally create o of those branded serves is what turns me on and what i hope tone day do. my frien whohave ha big financial pay outshere they sold their company or were no

longert auccessful company, they find themselv kind of boreand lost and they haveo go through these kind of mid life crises ery time. ani think so many ofus are really srching for our 2year reer. people sai to me,pincus, you'ren entrepreneur, you just love starting company i say,o, ion't. it's really hard. d i would love t find a company i cabe at for 20 years. >> charlie: a, congratulations. b, it's fascinatin to learn out th. ben gordon did me a favor by telling me about you what is going with zyngand like to keepn touch. >> thas for everything me. >> charlie: thankou. >> charlie: michae specter is here. he wtes about science, technology, global public health for the americaer -"the new yorker" magazine.

the it's calle denialism, rachial thinking hundreders scientific. i am pleased to have him here at this table. welcome. thank y, chaie. >> charlie: where did this begin for you? >> fir let's talkbout what denialism is,eople ask. everne knows what denial is. sometis you are depressed about somethg that you can't really face the facts. so youide, you pretend things aren't true. that hapns to everyone. it's normal. may even be healthy for a little whe. when society does it, don't thk it ever is healthy. i think there are number of issu now, particulay in scientific lif where were in denial aa culture. it's very painful. this started for me awhilego when i wrote sometng about vaccines aut a decade ago. i was just so flabbergasd by the opposition to vaccine which are aft all the most succsful public heal adveure in the history of the worldxcept for one. >>harlie: one of the me efctive tools of publ health. >> so, what sit about vaccines that created this backlash

>> the thing that created the backlash was purrted link between autism and measles, mumps and rubella. that was understandable. because ki develop autism at about the same time that the get lots o vaccines beten the first and second year of le. people are desperate to understand what hpened, they lo around, they see a proximate cause they add twond two. the problem is they add twond o often they get six. becausewe are now done any number oftudies on this issue. and everye, involving millions of children, by t way the ras ofeople who develop autism and rat of peop who dot are theame. whher you'reaccinated or not, there's no difference. so there's norrelation betweeeverything a vacci or not hing a vaccine a developi autism. >> chaie: tell m whoou think holds these view because my impression is, that it's not just people who might otherwise

be available to coniracy theories, that kind of thg. >> it totally isn't just conspecie eories. lots of peoplhold these views, h1n1, e flu, % say they don't want to have this vacci. this has beegiven 60 million times in the wld and 12 million mes in our country. it has produced zero identifiable deaths, wch doesn'mean it hasn't killed anyone or it hasn't cause har it hasone amazingob of protecng people and thoands ha died of this virus d thousandmore will. so the idea that people w't ta a vaccinehat is helpful and benign, it's very disconcertg. >> charlie: y also believe it a sign of our tes in terms of the pervasive impact of the ternet andtalk radio and things like that. >> sure. that's we don't trust authity. there are often some good reasons for that. when we're told, tak a vaccine, take a pill, do this, do that, our initial response is to say,

no. that actually probably a ally excellent respon to have. skepticism is reired. but don't go further. we don't look at t data. we don't add it up. we go on to the internet where we can fd supportor anhing weant in the world no matter what it is. >> charlie: you believe that it's growing. >> it' clearly growing. this i a problem ifyou look at ceain elements, this is about itical thought and rationa thinking. not about vaccesful it's not about geneticshich i write about or vitamins or food. it's abut our approach to understanding these issues. when you lk at them indidually it's very powerful. food is clear emple. >> charlie: explain od. >> tre is argument going on in this country that getting louder between those who support organic fming and those who believe genetically engineered food has an importanplace in th fure of healthf the world. it is argument at is ridiculous. it is ideologicalrgument. biothnology can and shod co-exist. ople throw up opposition and

thepposition is always -- there's too much pesticide, too much monoculture, thereare giant corporations invved in this. ten those things are true. buthat's not aboutcience. science not a company, it's a country,t's a method of doing something. the science of genetically engineered fo is remarkable and n be evenmore remarkable. we got a blion peopleho go to bed hungry every night. it doesn't happen here. we can eatorganic food. i eat organicood, i think it tastesetter. in africa, asia, parts of this wod people subsist on next to nothing. we need to try to help them. th's not going to happen with organic food, it's going to happen withscience. kecan't oppose that. >> charl: who is making decisions about modified food. >> decisio are often made by the people who scream the loudest. so what we have inhis country is a lot of modified food. it tends go to corn crops and company bean cps to feed ttle, often in very unpleasant

ways so they can be killed in uneasant ways and we c eat them from factory farms. that's not a good thing. but that doesn'tmean that we shouldn'take the science. finns, caba is product y'll find in africa, hundre ever millions ever people subsist on. buh of calories. it dsn't have nrients or protein, scientists ar engineering those thin in to it. yoll be abl to eat casaba and won't go bli. wall have prein. not greates food. not eating at therench restaurant. that is what we're suppose to want to do. >>harlie: you make the point, too, thatevery foo has been modified in some way. >> i don't call it genetically modified food. i call it genetically engineered. because there's nothing we hd that hasn't been mod fight. we didn't ha tangerine in the garden of eden or corn or rice or cantaloupes. these things a over thousands ever yearshave been modifd througbreeding. th is a different way o doing that. 's a more specifi way. it has eater theoretical benefits and it shld beaid,

greater theoretical harm. we need talk aboutll of that, not somef it. >> charlie what is your differenceith andrew we. >> andrew wile, very sophisticad and smartman -- >> charlie: wh sls lots of books and most a gur toa certain >> i would tak the wd "almost" right out. he is a guru. my problem is him i w looking at the vitamin indury trng tonderstand y so many people embrace vitamins >> charlie: i wld embrace vitamins if i thout they were going to be od for me. in fact a t of peoe tt i respec a lot of people i respect bieve in vitamins. vitamin b12, atever the b is, every day o their le. >> show me the data. >> crlie: are you saying it's not vitamins e not supplents are not odfor you this ty add thing to you or don'add asuch as som might belie? >> i would sayhat about 95% o th are not good for you. so of them are down right dangers for you. and some really are cessary d helpful. there's nouestion. but if you go in to a vitamin store you look at these elixirs

d potions and things, pu them in a bag, ta them in the sea, throw themut. because they're useless. they'r useless. they dark darknyour urine. >> charlie: orexamine them. >> tons of studies have shown this. the more times studies ce out that say vitamin cnot useful, vitamin e, the more peopl run in toheir local vitamin store and buy the stuf it's remarble. >> charlie: s it about hope? people somehow -- >> yesharlie: people in the perfume business, jewelry business are selng hope. >>hese things are totly understandle. i'not saying that they're not. yeah, it's aut hope and about anotherthing. hethcare system sucks, drugs cost too muc they d't work, 've been over promised things from the medical initutions in our life. and so people can look at vitamins they seem natural and real and hopeful. d, sure, i underandhat. but ifoulook at the information th's available to

us, you'll find -- >> charli why is the medical community noup in arms? >> they are. >>harlie: are they? i don't sea lot of stories on the front page of eitherajor stories by "th new yorker" gazine or the "new york time or other publicaons saying, doctors proclaim danger of vitaminupplements. >> tre have been lots of studies that have been on the front pa that sa this study shows that this iso good for you. that sdy shows this is -- >> chaie: is tha just truth in advertisi or something deeper and different? >> don't know how to answer exce to take that huneds of thousands of people have been compared everying taken all these supements inifferent ways and thosehat have no there'never an improvement. >> charlie: we connue to ha this idea because it's based on something. >> sure. >>harlie: the idea that natural is better. >> based on something. >> charlie: what is i based on >> based on a kind of yearning for simpl time. something that makes sense to us. and i understand that it would

beice. when natural is invoked a beer i want to ask people, what is natal. what does that word mea because legally, i real terms in this country, natural kind of means nothing. >> charl: the lger issue for you, wch denlism is about, is the notion that there's an anti-scientific -- >> yes. >> >> charlie >> charlie: curnt in the atmosphere. >> yes. there's ai-scientific rrent -- >> charl: don't believe in science. >>nd we believe tt somehow the spler wayis beer than the scitific way. >> charlie: or tha ience has been corrupted or that scnce has within it certn things that a scary or thatening. >> it do. it does ha within itcertain things that are scarynd threatening. but at doesn't mean that w ne to throw it all out. if technology is used the wrong way, it doesn't meane walk away from the technology it means we make itetter. thes tecologies -- everything

we do has harm built in, risk built in if eryone took aspirin in this country rig now, four hours later 500 peoe would be dea does that mea we ouldn't have aspirin? no. 19billion tablets were swallowed. >> charlie: a lot of cardiologi say you take half an aspirin evy day ofour li. >> the dataupports them. i'not suggestingsuggestg we shouldn't that. i'm saying thatverything including ings we rely on has sk. if we regulated driving in aar the way we regulate dgs no one would be allowed to enter one in this country. >> charlie: on the idea of anti-science, also got involvedn stem cell debate as well. that was not -- nothing do with science as mh as it had to do with -- >> morality, religion. >>harlie: exactly. is that part of ience, gotn a bu saw coming from religion? >> i think that's par o it. but i don't thinit's that much of it. because i don't believe th you can't be religious and also

believe in science. i think there's so muchvidence at those things can exist together they can't if yore going to believe in fundamentalism. but there's also a fundamentalism awork here which is fundantalism of fear. that is governi our reaion to smuch of what wedo now, 's it's causing us gat harm. there are ally significant consuences, not just to ouelves, when we decide that vitamins are just as useful as tried and tested drugs, we see a continuum that ends up in south africawith the former prident saying, you know what, we're t going to use anti-vir drugs for people with hiv. we're not gog to use western mid is in. we're going to ge our people lemooil and garlic. let's kill 400,000 o them because that's literally whathe did. >>harlie: the ne president of sou africa changed that. >> he ood up and said the word denial. thate have to stop it. we need to use drugs. it wasmagical day a lot of aids actists in south africa

literally ran out in the streets. sorry i it had toappen 15 or 15 years after. >> chare: has he ever changed -- >> not to my knowledge. he is firm in this. a stern plot. got a lot of plots here. >> charlie: what happens? who ar the champions on the other side? >> the champio onthe other side - >> charlie: wils, on one sue. >> the progressis. i don't knowhen progressives became reactionary. >>harlie: what are they? the peopleho are -- >> peoe who think that genetically engineered food is bad because it's controlleby big mpanies. that -- >> charlie: go ahead. >> big pharma is back. let's separate instituons from the deck know logica tents and skills. >> charlie: let me just say. this i don't think ts is relevant. but i'll say it anay. alice waters,or one.

althese chefs will say, what's the number onerequirement to cook as well as you do and they will say, choose fresh and loc ingredients. >> couldn't agree me. i love to do it. i go to the ion square market, people in bkeley should go to their markets, in geneva, i'm not talking -- they d't have those markets in afric if you c eat loca food and you canfford loc food. it tastes beer. by the way, no greater nutritional content whatsoever. but it tastes better and she's right,ut that's as far as it goes. she'not right about -- i 35 years we're going to have to produce 70% more od on this plan than we dooday. we're nogoing to do that in alice's way. we're just not going to serve everybodone swiss chard from the back yard, we're not. >> chlie: that's true. synthec biolo, what is that? >> it's basicly making new organisms from constituent parts ofife. >> charlie what do you mean,

new organisms? for instance, i'll giveou an example. a dr used in malaria, it's most iortant drug, it's a difficult drug to cultivate, farmers in africa and asia grow it. if you don'tet it out of the ground rapidly it can degra. if you don't ocess it properly it tns to cyanide. 's very difficult to grow and harvest. jake, at the univerty of california berkeley at livermore lab said, you know what, iant to just make this, just from scratch. just as you'd bake a cake from the first ingredient. he madehis drug out constituent parts. just like make computer t of parts. he put the parts together, in the next couple of years we're gointo be able t make all the ardima, is that is needed in th wod in a vat that isprobably not twider than this table. we're going to be ab to control the quality it. and the pce. that is miraculous -- >> charlie: wh will we be aible do to do about malaria >> treat it mh better. get the millions of people who

can' afford this drug, this drug wl go to them becaus keasling, university of california and the gates foundaon have said already, made se that this patent would be free d available to whoever eds it. this is something that we really n do with food,e can do it with ergy. and we needo start thking about using the technolies. but they are als brand new and scary: i ve to say. >> charlie: why areheyary. >> when u make new life, all this frankenstein stuff th you hear all the time. it's kind of true. craig vent says, we'reoing to boot upnew lifeforms. th could do grt things like poweautomobiles without giving f greenhouse essions. that is wonderful. but new li forms scary as hell. >> charlie: ake it to it gical extension >> a new life form. life form that don't control in the proper way. t's say itescapes from the environment we p it in and it

becos airus and infects us. this sun likely, it's not imssible. did you er see the moviei am legend" it s will smith. thwhole theory they tk the measles virus they harnessedharnessed iin such a way to cure cancer. it was fantastic until it wiped out the world. now this might seem likeigns fiction except that there are peoplesing the pie else virus righnow and tering to treat caer. now they knowhat they're doing. th're doing it well. when life imites art in that way, it mak you tremble a little. >> chaie: can it be contlled? >> sur it can be controlled. the way all technology ca be controlled. but my concern is th we don't talk about it. we don't have the conversations we need. so i don't want to have happen with synthetic biology what happened with genetical enneered food which is jus les have a bunch of scientists loose on the world, it's out there, people t upset becaus they feel it w forcedpon

them. t's have the conversation. charlie: lot of people that i resct and you respect like bill joy, very smart guy. >> yep. we don't see eye to eye. thisknowledge is so -- >> chlie: science. how could that happen, arlie? let's say we even thght bill was right about this. hocould that happen? you think we're going tobe able tohut off knowledgeo the world? because i n't think so. i'rather harness knowledge and open it upo more peopl t aew people. >> charlie: peopl at he, what ishe talki about, how is is different? you can talk constuent parts put together a human species? eventually that's humanly possib but that's not what we're talking about. i don't think the's -- >> charlie you don't like to raise that ise because it detax from theuestion that you' asking? >> no. we can raise the issue. but the proble is, every te yotalk about these isss people go to def-con four.

what i'm talking about is, not cloning people bu maybe ow some ler cells sof you get cancer you can use those cells. maybe you want to grow something so that a heart -- >> charlie: that' what sm cells out. >> but oer ways to do it. in syhetic biology is away. synthetic is way to cate energy sources without everything to burn greenhouse gasses. there's alst nothing in our history that we need me desperately an that. >> charl: here -- number questis that can beaised from t potential synthetic biology,hat are the risks, who would pay for it. homuch would it cost? wi there be genetic hav and have nots, how safeo manipulate life inhis way. how likely to have accidents that would unleash organisms to a world that is not prepared for them, would be easier technologyor people bent on destruction tocquire. >> all these questns are totally vad and need to be scussed. destructn issue is ieresting me. there's so man ways to destroy the universe ght now. you can do i cheaply. you can fly planes in t

buildings. you don't need to acquire synthetichemicals, make the in laboratory -- >> charlie: this is potenti that gs beyond 300eople as deadly and awful as that was. >> we can mak the polio virus. we can totally make smallpo we have th ability alrea. that's o tre. people are capable of doing that. i don't think someone -- >> charl: is it postuted as weapon of great destruction? >> smapox? >> charlie: that's my point. people who wish us don't wish us well think about these kinds of tngs. >> i understd that. i ink you ought to tnk about these things i just think we ought to put them i perspectivehere. is alway a down ride and it's real. clear energy is something th could have been ed properly, nucleaweapons turned -- >> crlie: it was used operly. >> it's true. it could be ed pron early agn. the truth is tre are questions never asked. i ink we need to ask estions about synetic biology right now. all this stu is real. but why do we nev talk aut

the things? the esident of the united states should ta about these things. she ta about them in digal fom with our natn. i really believe that. because isn'this more important than even e economic crisis? >> chaie: where is it bng talkedbout? >>t's being taldbout in the energy department. on a lot of univeities, have some foundatio >> charlie: people in big pharma in every major pharmaceutical company he some division, so where that's looking in to this? >> to the degree that they think they c make money, sure. >>harlie: or that it may be the future. >> yeah. but the problemith this is, this is anothe reason we should all be talking about it. this shodn't be patented, it shou be available to all of us. we should ben control of whether we use organism not whethererck decides it's the right thing for us. i think that's wh's happened in t past. nd to break th. >> charlie: who is drew ende of stanford. >> a synthetic biologist he's a civil engier, that o that's how he was traine

a blliant man whobelieves we can put together different pts of cmical constituents. and make allorts of important new chemicals that can be drugs, that can be energyources. he'soing that with his classes. charlie: the books called "nialism. michael specte >> thanks for having me. >> crlie: my plsure. >> charlie: annabelle selldorf is her principle of firm she foued in 1990 with long time love for art. shcollaborated with a late philip johnson on the urban glass use, cdominium, most recently she designed 211th avenue high-se apartment buding in chelsea that features a car elevar. she's publish add monograph of her firm's wor i am pleas to

to have her here at this table for the rst time, welcome. >> thank you. >> charlie: tell me abo why you became an architect. >> i grew ip in an architect's househol my fathers an architect still practicing. as i nred the age of 18, anything i would have done i wanted to a joualist, i wanted to be a diplomat. i wanted to be -- >> charlie: film maker, whatever it mht be. >> whatever. but an architect becse at emed like an awful lot of work. >> charlie did he want you to be an architect? he stayed away from the topic. eventually my best frie said, why don'we become interior decorators. at wch moment he turned arou said, no, no, no. if you're goingto do sometng you study architecre because you n always do interiors t you cat build buildings. i were you- >> charlie: is there a guiding ilosophy for you? i think that you start with

listening very cefully to what the mandate is. unlike some architects, ours is not an architecture of grand gestures or monumental statements. but ratr sort of subtle intervenons. part also hato do with the fact that we started with very small projects. and so listening very carefully to what is required a then finding a me of making somethingthat ha integri and clity. i think is usually the operative. >> chaie: here is what you said once. the goal is to stay cse to the bone, to fin a narrow path to a poetic resolutio amid precise argument. that's really sounds go. >> tk me aong time to come up witthat. >> charlie: it sods great. i. >> i tnk it means tt do you two things at the me time. which is rational responsible consideration.

but s entirely to do with t intellect. and a dree of intuition and and such of beaut >> arlie: have you found joy in arctecture. >> it's awful lot of work, that's for sur but i think what happens is really that in the -- it's part ofhe process that you see things, that yourecognize things, that you interactwith people there's tremendous joy in that. i alsoindhat there isumor in workin with people and when i say peoe, it's really all kinds ever people, right. it's the people who bui things. thpeople whoelp you, the consultants, structural engineers, mechanical engineers, whoever theyay be. ultimately the clients. who contribute s much you can't

reallyo a goo project without a good clit. >> charlie: y were born in german >> that's right. >> charlie: thinkbout going back t gmany to do archecture since berlin is one ever the st of remarkable cities in the world today? >> i'm always happy to visit and i'm happy to do prects ere. but new york been my home for a long time. >> charlie: let's tak a look at some of this. first is intior staircase. >> what you should notice is the sort of clarity of the line ever the staircase. 's a very impressive strcase. none of whh i had anything to doith. but the jtaposition of the very, very elegant, simple, minimaist blackstone recepon counter is sort of nice juxtaposition in my mi. >> charlie: next is furniture at the gallery. >> ts ofourse is one of -- charlie: modernism, woul yousay? >> itwas opening exhibition when we aimed to show austrian

art on the secondloor and german art on t third floor this being tporary exhibitio shows off a wonderful colleion of e furniture. i think 's marvous to see these extraordinary pieces of furniture in a 19th century building. >> charlie: exbition space at the michael warner gallery >> that was my first gallery project. d very exciting one one that. because working with michael warner was rribly interesting being that he had so mu exrience. and madeuch a diffence in the contemporar german art wod. and he basically left it tome by way of being the harshest critic. and it was the first portant

project for me a ioved it because iknew every square in of it. >> charlie: next space is david zwarerallery. >> another art dealergal wrist whose important to peoe you know very wl weworked togetherver since we both arted our respective businesses. accompanying his growth and collaboratn between the two of us has bn very special. >> chaie: next is t exterior of abercrombie and fitch store re in new york. the exterior. he is something that people going along 5th aven and see every day of their life. >> they can, thout -- >> charl: with a bunchf teagers waiting toet in. >> without being able walk in the building. i'm proud of the -- i'm proud o th project inasmh as ithink that we managed tomake a

beautiful facade cominback down to 5th avenue. looked old pictures from the '50s. there ed to be a haberdasher there. anfendi had a very grand facade that ma no sense of fifthavenue. i thi this is both quite elegant but also returns the building to e city. >> charlie: thenext is interior of the same. >> whi of course isvery dramat space. but the staircase as winds in the ilding is betiful object. >> charlie: let's go to residential urbanesidential this is 211th avenue downtown. showing elevatorgarage. >> e reason people think is excings different from why i think it's exciting is t fact that you can bring your vehicle to your for, if you are lucky enough to liver in thi building. t it's significant because

it a very tall, skinn building wh wonderful views ever the river. and in thi particular location we aimed to make these ver tall loft-likspaces that are at once containedut also have rt ofpenness and transparency. >> charlie: this 11th avenue and what? and 24th street >> charlie: the next one is inrior of a living room in london townhoe. >> well, it's alws nice for m to see this in -- just because it was aomplicated renovation job. not so large in scale. t we designed every la thing down to furniture and rugs and bles, what have you. again, this is an art colleor who entrusted his townhouse to . >> charlie: italking about the gallies i think tha something ke it's a kind o gentle modernism with perfect proportions, is it a genital

modernism a part of whatou do. >> it takes out as comiment, it not necessarily how i -- -- there is a trendous amount of sort of rigorous thking. and argug that goes . so if it's gele then perhaps -- >> charlie: you and i have id, you can sometimes ok at interi design as kind o preciseness, as nd of clarity, asind of -- the you agree withhat. >> yeah. >> charlie: a grand gesture. >> tt's right. i think tre is ovriding gesture. there's a desire to make space dollars and perhaps no for everybody but for me there's a desire toave claty. >> charlie: i' asking,hat it's alst like you want it to project the idea ha somebody

ought about ts. >> yh. yes. you ablutely that youon't nt that to be intimidating impression. at the end of the day you want things to be, ashey were meant to be. and i think that'sctually when things areost successful is when they seem completely self evident. yet strong and powerful. >>harlie: just to sw that you don't just wor in citie here is housen colorado. >> it's a wderful house. it's remarkable becse it's five stoes tall. >> charlie: we're looking at the fifth story? we're looking at the fifth story. i duped i theequin building in colorado. and it was very ieresting project because ain there is ises of modernis language to the vernacula that is available locally a surroding of log

cabins. >> charlie: next ise n tearr of a house olong island. this is one of the first houses i did. for a couple who startedan organic farm, are now very successful. 's a very simple 2500 square fo house. and the idea of it w, again, involved around prortions and creatingome sort of relationship to wonderful long island landscape. >> charlie: wt's different about your practice today than five years ago? >>very year i think the practice cnges. but i thi that we have evved fr being a smalltudio to a studiohat's equipped to do larger work. and consequently is organed in a different way. perhaps because i'm german, b i'm always pleased when i can

sort of have syste instaed that work in a pround way both being suortive of other people who wk tre. and find intesting and new work. >> charlie: a couple re thgs. this i exterior ofthe house that we were talking about. a different de where you get re light coming in. >> thas right. >> charl: which i was rried about. plenty of light there. this is facing the southwest direction. and at i'm still pleased with that thereare interesting things of the windows the upper floor not alignin with the doors on the lower floor. perhaps games play. but i think the need to a harmonious -- charlie: the fact this they do not ali? >> you know. th relate to each othern different wa. sort of your eye arrested by the fact tt -- >> charlie: from architectural standpoint, what is the thing o theight?

>>he pergula. >> charlie: just eaks up the outside le? >> it'she idea isreally tha it's a usable eerior space. now it's covered with vines and wonderl place to sit. creates sortf interesting shadow, intereing light conditn on the inside. >> charlie: you've said, i believe women ar trained to be mo conciliatg consequently they're design attitude is perhaps less aggresvely contrarian whichs a man's which does not mta woman's point view is not equally as distinct there. may be diffent sensitivity to matter of scale and proportion. can be found in the opposite argument. >> well, yes. last thing is -- >>he house we completed last ar in long isla. >> chaie: what's it called? >> privateesidence.

one that is fairly prominent because has large concrete wallfacing the road. and so for awhile peoe refer to i as the grea wall of ina. when in fact thought of it as a beautiful garden wall. it turns out to be a beaiful garden wall. >> charlie: what wi be the dream project for you at this point i'd love to do new construction. >> charlie: commercial, sidential, public? >> public. there is aarticular rard in ing things that are public, semi public,hether they're museums, libraries or projects of this natureecause in pa i think it's really about doing something -- whereyou take reonsibility for a degree of permanence that also somhing that is -- that' rewarding for people.

there is a inhere wanting to do something good and something, giving something back. >> charlie: thank you. >> thank you. >> charlie: greato see you. captioning spoored by roseommunications captiod by media cess group at wgbh acss.wgbh.org

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