>> charlie: welce to the broadct. tonight, we devo the hour to rembering. membering extraordinary peop th we lost in 2009. many of them sat here a this tabland talked about tir life and their work. weemember them this evening with a loo backat some of those conversations and shining moments at the table. charlie: funding for "charl rose" has been pvided by the following. ♪ ifou've had a coke in the last 20 yea, ( screams ) you've had a hd in giving college holarships... and support to thousan of our natn's... most promisi students. ♪ ( coca-cola 5-note mnemoni)

captioning spoored by roseommunications from our studi in new york city, is is charlie rose. >> charlietonight, an apeciation of those who die in 2009 in this special hour of appreciation a remembrance. i think i'm proudest of the ct that we reall have made suchn enormous transformation in such a short me. when i think that it'sless than, what, 10 years since ws -- 1991 was when all those laws

went -- the re classifation act, the group-areas act that affected mnly cultural indian people who wer summarily jected from homes and businesses becausehe areas where they were had been declaredhite areas -- that's algone. the past law went long before because th was really a tremendous oppressive msure which destroyed the molity of black people andheir fily lives to a large extent. all tho laws have gone. everybody enjoys the public amenities. that was great. >> charlie: at was the most difficulthing for you in being e voice you were? >> not ever really being able to do anything about it except talk. >>harlie: you were just a symbol. >> i was able to talk it was iortant to have somedy there who was revealin through parliament and the press -- i will never forget how imptant that was to me because i had great coverage.

>> charlie: what was it out you that madeou want to d that a that gave you t backbo and the spineto do it? >> well, i suppo i got e backbone and the ine from my immigrant faer who was a vy tough guy and d everything on his own, but i hated the dustry of all. i n remember as a little girl hating. >> the interesting thing is tha it doesn't really mak any difference whether y're a member of a liberal, mainlin protestant church orf an angelical edging over to a fundamentalist church to t degree that th seriousss of interest is eviden in participatn, in regular attendance, you are more likely to vote conservative acro the bod. >> that woul't be true o a nagogue? >>yes, to a large extent, but it's more difficult to do the alysis there because is only

a minority of the jewish community in ameca that he y affiliation with t synagogue at all and a much smler minority of at, % of the orthodox, for example. >> has this exploration gone on with rpect to the minority of jewsho areobservt? is the a higher percentage them who are republicans an democrats? >>ot nessarily republans than decrats because there a ban concentrations, and he in new york they certainly identify asconservative especially on the soal and cultural ises, abortion being the number one, b they -- >> wt percentage of registing as a republin? >> ecisely, if u're in borough park or ooklyn -- >> bause of what's happening in t middle east. this could change,ery interestingly, yes yet. >> i am measured beuse the "rabt" books to a degre because people came to lo him -- some did, not everybody but

people look at me sad and say ow could you have killed him?" it is my dut as a novelist to sehim through. i though that kind of man might well come to an rly end --a lot of ex-athletes have known develop heart trouble. it's a penalty. you use your body hard at one point of your ife. i had to see him to -- not quite the grave but the terminal hospital bedo makea saga of a man's life. this is a man's lif a fe ends. rabbit's life had end a i wanted to be there as awriter. >> charlie: was it s for you when you wrote that? >> kind of a relie actually. i had been having heart pangs, d when gaveim the heart aients they lted ofof me -- h carried them away for me. and toward the end there when he goes down to florida kind lf wanting to die, i felt, oddly, free. i felt myself getting lighter and lighter so it wasn't as sad

for me as perhaps for my readers, or some of my readers. writs are cruel. authorare cru. we make and we destroy like li, the hindugod. >> charlie: you uld do it. >> i hated to doit. no. i loved him. he wasood to . >> charl: but you -- >> he gave me my prizes. >> there was never any intent to fulfill the dream. you must rall as you think about dr. king on thisday that he was assassinat, murdered, shot down like adog, and the dream didn't fl then. it didn't fail yesterday. and it will not fail tomorrow for as long as there is one black childho undstands and is taughabout the life of king, we will make americaight in ste of itself.

>> iave a theory that what we ite about chooses you re than you cose him -- just like -- i feel that it's choseen. his locale. his people. 's in his blood. >> charlie: it's imy blood too. that'sxactly where i'm from i know thecharacter. >> i'mure you do. i'm sure you do. >>harlie: the drunks a the sober ones both. >> that's rit. >> charlie: lauren count and i have never had any choice about it. i just -- instinctivy, this i what my imagination goes tords. for good obad, that's where i am. >> charlie: is being ariter the same thing? it chooses you? >> in my se, it certain is. it certain -- i was chos, in a way, yeah. i didn't have any conscious - i wanted to be an actor so badi can't tell ou, and then one day, it just -- the gears began to shift. >> charlie: and you wanted to be

a playwright >> i wanted to be a playwright in the worst kind of way. i had no training. i hadn't eve gone to college. i really hadto learn on the job, so to speak. >> that's primarily where you come from as an actor or an actress is usg your own life experience to perhaps be able to shed light on other characte. yo also use your imagination as well. i definely feel and pracce just, you know tha old saying, "practice, pctice, practice," so i do feel i'm getting betr and i ink the other thing i feel as i get older, which is not so muchto do with work, is that sense of en you have had dreams of -- or my ambitions -- not necessarily profession -- of, "oh, i would love to go visit at country," or "i must do th," you think "i must actual do that, stop dreaming about it and actually do it."

>>harlie: just do it -- do it nowment don't say tomorrow, don't thk that 'll always have time to do that." >> no. you never know. i have had so many peoe as i have known this mmer who have justied before their time, and it's so pcious, you live it every day. >> myarliest remembers of race te back to about 1921, an two very important incidents in that area. one washat we led in the villagehere i was born, renniesville, oklaho, a small blk village -- we had to go to e next town to do our shping. my mother and my sister and i got on the train, h to flag the train downn this village. it would notstop if you didn. flagged it down,umped on and it was moving by theime we

got onand we had to sit down. we sat wn in the first seats we could getto, and that was all right exct that when e director -- when the conductor came through, said,"you can't sit here. th is for white people." and my motheraid, "well, i nnot move my chdren. the train is moving." he sd, "i'll stop t ain." he stopped the train. instead of permitting us to move to the so-cled black coach, he t us off the trainn the woods. >> crlie: believable. >> and i did not know whawas happeng except i began to cry, because i was out there in the woods -- my mother was with me, and my sister, we had to trudge r way bac -- we were still closer t reiesville than that ta, the town we were going, so we were trudginour w back t

renniesvil and i was crying and my mother said "what are you crying for?" i said "the man put us off the train. i was six years old. e said, "oh, that?" she id, "he put usoff the ain because he dn't regard uss being good enough to sit where we were, since that was for white people," and she said, "but you mustn't crybout th. she id, "if you have any energy, i want you to use it provg to yourself, a to everne else, that you are od as any of thoseeople on that trainegardless o their color." she said, "you dry those ars and i don't wantou crying about thatnymore," and i have nocried about that anymore. >> ion't think being the party in per necessarily means you'rehe party of gernment solutions all the proble. if you're inper, and you use

that per an authority and responbility to empower localities a states and people and families with nership and entrepreneurship a opportunity and educational choice and more jobs, think people wou see government as useful tool to reaching that goal. i don't think the queson is government or n goverent. we're not lezay faire th-century capitalists -- 're notlessaizfaire8th ceury capitalists i think that'she proper use of the government -- to create a safety net underhich people are not allod to fa, but also to create a ladder of opportuny on which people can climb out of perty, so there, to me, is the balancee owe, if you will, of a democratic society. >> charlie: i kn you hav treled around the country mpaigning for a lost those repuican candidates who had

endors and - for a o lot of those republican candites who had endorsed and signed t contract with amera made by newtingrich and other republicans, thatovernment and th mission seemed to be,"we are going to reduc theower of government." yes? were going to ruce the power ofovernment -- >> overur individual lives. in a cold war, which wehave lived through for years, or in hot war as we lived through under world war ii, r, say, world war i, the government has to be a ntral focus of authority and responsibili in spendi, but inpeacete, i think it's important to shift ck to normal and to shift power back to people to-- excuse t expression -- empower the individual. expand incentives r work, and savings, and entrepreneurial ri-taking, so i think it is

natural tt the republin partyoffering thatcontract to the amican peopleo pvide that type of a shift in thority from the central govement back to people would co to power overwhelmily agains what was perceived be the clinton democric arty, whh wanted to nationalizer iraqatize health car welfare, e.a. and trade and everything else i could have predicted this i didn't, i didn't see it as b as iwas but i can now look back and interpret it as a massive shifof powernd authoritaway from the centr bureauacy back to people. >>verywhere i go, i meet women who say it changedmy life,nd unrtunately, when i finishe tsomeone said, "how do you want to be membered?" i sa "the ideal wld be one in which i wasn't, in whh the

women's room" would absolutely unreadab because you wouldn't know what it was talking about" but unfortunately i meet a great many young women who coinue to experience the same thing. >> charlie: at did it say them? >> i think it validates a nuer ofhings about women that had nevebeen validated before in arin the large sense. one iswomen's work, ich ha always been looked ats onwork and as mindless an as- i rember reading when i was a young married wan an article on brn-damaged people, and it concluded that brain-damaged women madexcellent wives, and th was the approach toward what was requid to run a house d raise children. i think it validated women's anger. are t supposed t get angry, we know that, as soon as they get angry they get called all kinds of thing that make the nonwomen -make them some kind ofsuper-human, evil for, and

think it validated their perspecte on themselves. for a lot of women. >> if you have done nothing else, if you have been a perfectlhorrible man, let us say,nd had preserved the uon and freed the slaves we would still say this is onef our major american presidents, bu when you a to that other things, thate was a brillit litician, his whole life was life in politics d he was able to work men and groups that had not got along, who had no experice of getting together into anrganized party that backed himnd the republicans, of course, for re-election since 18, first time since andrew jackson anybody d been ejected, his political ski is e thing that must be stresd and add to that maybe twoore things. there was a moral dimeion to thisman. whatev you said about abham lincoln, and thereere many, many cricisms of him, nobody

ever questioned hi honesty, nobody qstioned his integrity, nobody ever questioned tt he was doing e very best he could and there were principles that he adhered tolike the eservation of the union that he would not budgen. "once i put my footdown," he said, "i d't lift it up." >> the night of the start of ""the tonit show,"" the johnny carson version of ""the tonight show,"" october 1st, 1962, i went up to his office above 6-b where we taped the show for man ars in nbc 30-rock, he and i were going to walk down the first time tbe on the s to sethe lights, to see where the couch is and t chair and kind of test it out, so we walked down the staircase together t o of s, i went to his oice to pick h up, again, lothar, getting him down to the set, as we werealking down, i said, "johy," i sa, "it w after four years together on "who do you trust?"

i sa, "johnny, how d you see myole tonight?" he said, "ed i don't kn how i see my role. let's go dowand entertain the hellut of them that was the instruction. entertain the hell out o them. and we did it,or 30 years. >> don't always listen the polls. don't always listen the majoty of t coress. don'always listen to the majority of thpress, the majority of the people through the polls, the majority the congress, e majority of the press were in support of what wagoing on in vietnam dung much of that peri. at doesn't absolve u as leaders of what wedid. we were responsib to lead, not follow, and led wrongly, so that'sne lesson. i hope peopl will underand that. the leaders are responsibleo leadnot follow. that's the rst point. second point, for god's sakes i don't want to peop the take

the lesson "you suldn't serve in govnment, you will g ucified." i saidhe other night, an the morning -- i sd on tv -- and the morning afte my chdren, all threof them, separely called and they justere almost in tears. ey wer so pleased. this was the day after the diane wyer show when i was almo in tears myself. but what i said on that show wa after seven years of stress and traum and pain, i believe every one of us, my wife, craig, my son, cathy, my daughter, margie, my daughter, i wer betteror theeven years of government service, d that's the message wanto leave to e american people. for god's sake when your governme asks you to serve, serve. it's your obligati. it's your ty. anyou will be better for it. that's what i lieve. >> john keedy, in our

inrview, we finishe the interview, he seemed a lite miffed and kin of stormed off with a vy perfunctory "goodb," i went out to th trk in front where we had taped is interview and i was satisfied with t looks of it and was about to lve when o prucer came out of kennedy's house in georgetown and sa, "the senatorants to doit over ain." i said, "we can't it over again, for hven sak," we ilt it up as an interview that was totally ad libbed,ow he knows the questions. that's not fair. we did it with nixon last week who didn'tsk to do it over. he said "he sists. that's the only thinwe can d iso it over." i asked permissi to speak to the senators. i went upstairs, he was lying on the bed in a room that looked like harvard college dormitory om, pictures of football players, harva players, i hoped, on th dresser,nd i assumed it was john pickup

mes kind of thin -- i don't know- but at any rate, i went in and i pleaded with him t do it over and he said, "no, we're not ing to do it or." >> crlie: you pleaded toeave it as its. >> he insisted "we're going to it ove" >> chaie: his problem is he didn't like the waye was sittinin the chair. >> he said that it was because was sitting in the chair -- we hadim place in asoft chr where he was all doubled up and looked bad. you kn that wa't it didn't look badly at all. it was the fact that he had muffed this question and knowing that, i wasn' about to doit over just for cosmetic reasons. anyway, it would still be unfair. i sa "we're going to ha to label the oadcast. there is going to be a disclaimer theres aing "we did thisith nixon with no redo, with you we had to do ro the thing at your request," "i don't care about that, do it,"alking t of throom i said "we're

going too it but i want to llyou something. this is the poorest displaof sptsmanship i've ever seen in my life." i got almost to th door wh he said, "hol it. let it run." >> is allshion. it's a family story. d a lot -- it echoes a l of thgs, i think, that people have heard from tir parents, whether they are jewish or irish or whatever tyre -- depression stuff. the dysfctional mily. the alcoholic father. the aspect of religion. the powe of religion. how it makes you feel guilty. and i thinthe style is straightforward. i learned -- i lrned the ste, i ink, from teaching. >> charlie: that's what i want to ask you. ere did you learn to write? >> i leard -- i learned -- i ve a granddauger -- she was about two when shevisited me when i was beginning -- and i reized, i was watchinger

learn how she would take word anput it away in her -- "chair," ara, and that word was in her memy bank, and how when you talk to enagers, when you're a teacher, you have to be clear andirect andsimple beuse they have no patience, and for 27 yrs i hato be clear andirect. >> it's not about a gre career it's the facthat i have be able to continue doi something thatnterests me and that keeps being interesting regardls of my particular infirmities. >> charlie: and whats it that kes it interesting for you? >> because i keep finding things about life and people that i didn't know about. >> crlie: like what? i mean -- in -- you mean- like at? >> likthrough working wit -- well, working with dancers, as i have done all my lif of course but in way to not only have a

situatioin which we can do o work but the y we work together -- that is, the music and the dance and e visual thing -- the are three sepate identities wch, at the moment of performance, come together, so iis in a sense a political thing -- that is, we travel around and present this work allowing as mh freedom as possible for everybody in it at the same time there is this discipline. charlie: what do you look for dancers? >> ell, they haveo be strong. >>harlie: of course. >> to be able to snd on two feet, e leg. >> charlie: it helps. >> and move an arm at the same time. they hav to velexibility d to my way of thinng, they have to hav a resilience not only in the dy but in the nd. >> charlie: a resilnce to -- >> t realizehat things ange. that you c -- and that you can ange. youcan change your mind. not be fixed in the way

something need be or thi it's only pfect oneay. everything is perfect. all you haveto do is change your mind. >> i think chitecture as frank oyd wright id, appropriately,s the mother art. it's hostic. it affects all o lives. both subconsously and consciously. it is about the environment. the manma environmt. and wh you think about it, people who trav, who tak long trips, actually g to pces to see buildings. to experience architecture, so i believe its impact upon the cocious and the perceptua parameters of one's exience is tol, so whene tk about why we want to be a architect, i think we'realking about not only wagoes o today in art but

what will go on in t -- what go on today in art but wagoes on in the future. >>harlie: in the early -- but what goes on in the future. in the early 1960's u worked on this houseor your parents who had movedo the nortast on long iand, in ammagansett, give me a sen whyand the creativeorce that was at work >> vy luck to have parents who trusted their son, the young architt, and >> charlie: out of architecture school no more than two or three years at that int. >> jay: t of architectur school no more than two orhree years. they nted to bld a house in amagansett, i had done a house in fire land before, a very small one, anthe opportunity was unique in tha to design it and then try to build it was a

very -- wa a very critical point in mylife. i was working for another architect. i could have gten involved in mayorlindsey's ahitect group at the time and no ctractor would build the house in east mpton. no one er saw curved rms or raw cedarwoo ani told my pants that i would like to build it, that i thght it was esseial. >> i took my mother's battery radio, turned it into a p. system -- this in the 1920's -- and i sang through a telephone. d theharmonicand the voice and the jokes and everything were fine, but the guitar they couldn't hr. so the carhop said "if you could on get the guir louder," so i liftemy dad's radiout of the gara and i hooked it up to

the guitar, which i d bought, by the way, at sears and ebuck, 4.95, so i too a phone grav pkup, jabbea needle in the -- so i took a phonograph pickup, bbed a needle in the guitar, i was unhappy because of the feback and it started to ller -- if youot toooud with thi acoustical instrument so i fled it with plaster of paris, rags, everythin i could, ani thought there's got to be better solution to thisthing, and i worked i ouuntil it was either a piece of railroad track and i said "i'm never going to see gene autry on a horse with a railroad track,so i said "that's out, steel i out" so i said "it's g to be wood," so i found the hardest piece of wood, and it was a four-by-ur, and i

made , and here, lo and behold, was the answer to the problem, and i put someings around the things, and we were ready to ro, and i go to the gibson people and says, ere is your guitar. here is tomorrow." and they called it t broomstick witthe pickup on it. >> charlie: and then the began to have e s paul model and the -- >> andhen it happened. i have beenfollowing politics and writin about politics f over 50 years, even before i got washinon. it is an addiction. >> charlie: and reporting isan addiction r u. >> it is. it's fun to find somhing out that other people dot know. prting it. a lot of people say that this book - they're amazedat how many facts in the i tell about myself and the tngs usually you don't put in --ournalists dot put in their memoirs and i say that was m styl >>harlie: what was theardest thg to put in here? >> i ink the mostifficult

thing was to put in the miskes i have made -- >> charliewhat was the biggest e in your judgmen we could go through a of them but what the biggest one in your judent? >> it may not sound like much butuch an embarrament when chuck colson got me to write a column aut suing "time" mazine for reporng that he was involved in the watergate burglary, and i was - that was my weakss. it'seen my weakness. am so desirousf getting a scoothat sometimes i will grasp atomething that a coln shouldn't ha been written. >> i believe ry strongly iis yourar more than yr eye that kes you in the tevision set. charlie: i do too. people say people hear expln it to me. >> ian livewith a picture at's a little bit grainy a a litt bit ou offocus. because nobody's gng to turn it off. can't live wit grainy sound orout-of-focus sound.

the minute the sound the wordsdon't mesh or the inflexions aren't right, i don't care what's on --or the inflections en't right, before "60 minutes" the word in televisi was we're gng to put word to pictures. we're going to put pictures to words. thatay be the secret "60 nutes" which a lot of people have caught onto -- i belie that whayou hear is more important than what u see. i have been in television 4 yearsand i never saw a picture that cited me as much aa well turned phrase. i may have learned that from irwin friendly. >> charlie: he didn't write at a pewriter. >> at a lecter charlie: he would talk it throh and somebody wrote it do? >> no,he wrote it. >> charlie: he would talk ito --e wanted to hear what he had toay. >> do that. listen

as far as the sound andhat's said on "60 nutes," mike wallace and i he hadhe same conversation for 24 year r 24 ears, mike has de a narration atnd of which he inriably said to me, "ok, kid, how was it?" and for 24 years i have said "i will give u an "a." you nt to do it again and s if you can get an a-plus? wh iget in the control room, i know what bradle looks like i know what lesley looks like. >> charlie: you want to hear the track. >> sometimes i listeand i whip my head u and i s "waia minute, that infltion wrong" or "that's wdy" or "tre is a better word that we can use there" and i edit with my rs. i don't editith my eye. ppl ve to understand, investing in children is conservative. that isn't radical that isn't liberal -- that makes a sense -- educating s that

we're going be able to compete. investing inpeople. for every dolr that wenvest in the g.i. bill after world war ii, we got seven dollars back i rms of the treasu. is that liberal? is that conservative ishat radical? is that cry? that's sod. that makes sense. american people have to understandhat these kinds of investmentmake sense in term of our country, ifhey're indispsae, if we're going to be able to survive, indiensable in terms of our nationalecurity that we're going to be able to compete with these other countrs so i think we have to be -- the democra have to be willingo really -- you know speak in -- in the candid w about these issues -- >> charlie: th say. >> tt's absolutely right, and weave to do something about these -- thienormous disparity -- you know, the great -- if you look from947 to 1975 -- 1940 to 19, all e qntiles broken out, everyone moved along together, and sce we'v had

thisrepublicanrevolution starting with ronaldreagan, continuing onothere e great sparitys i teá of@ w%al. we're@ csttly gng art, rtr and further apart. it's e pluribus unum, one out of many a we're going "out of many, one" that's therong directn. >> charlie: you believe we've turned the tide? at people are ying there is too much disparity in arica betwn the wealthy and the middle class? >> think they -- they wan-- theyant -- american people want to know whos on thei side. who is on their sid in educating their ki. who is on theiride in hlth care. who on their sidein jobs. o is on their side in tms of the environment. that is the opportity given the demrats. that's the opportunity given to them. you said "e@ they thereyet?" that'she opportunity. we ought to be the and we ght thave them there and i believe we'll ve a candidate, hopelly that will get us the. >> charlie: u're not going to tell me who that is.

let meust close with this. trenlott has this thing on your wall in whi he said, "now back in power," as in number two man in theenate in which he said, "ifhey onlyknew whatid he mean? >> well it's that there are peopleere -- tnt lott, number ofery fine republicans, colleagu as well that rlly want to make the institution rk and find ways to trto work togher --'ve trd that in the unitestates senate, i'm trying itnow, i'm very rtunate to have a good colleague, senat incee is our airman, we're hong to get thgs done -- wll be down just below the surface but we'l be getti things done and i think that's the way it will be. we'll bep at the top, too, to sound off, but in the meanme, hopefully, we'llet some things do.

>> i'm still always fascinated by the rich anthe powerful in the cminal situationecause it's always differentor them than it is for anrdinary peon and there is that kind of a storin this based on a rea ory. >> charliethat is fascinating for you, thenotion of the rich d powerful getting their comeuppance especily when they've committed in horrible crim you disay this, whichs interesting. you were a little embarrass about how you were bk then. do you still share that? you're embarrassed? or you say, "look, at was me then. i understand it. maybe i'm a little bit barrassed butlife is a journey and you" -- >> life is a journey. >> charlie: and u end up somewhere anthank god you have the experiences youdo because they all contribute to who you are. >> absolutely. >> charlie: who you beco. >> i wld be earrassed if i were still le at. >> chaie: yeah. >> b i'm not embrassed now. >> charlie: buyou went through

that. >> i'm thrilled. >> charlie: you don't look back because of ts and becauset shaped your abity and your capacity to serve those people. that's right. charlie: yeah. >> i like writing bt, and then if it has to go somewhere, i ke it being in the theater. charlie: right. because? >> because the wrir -- >> charl: is king >>s king or queen, andt's verycontaining. you work with fewer people. you're n getting notes fm executives who weren't born before you staed that piece d you get to work mo directly with the audience. >> chaie: youust don't respect executivesenough. these people have beenround -- >> for ds. some of themor days. i say that i onc had a eting with a fes in a ree-piece suit. >>harlie: a fetus?" yes. >> charlie: hadn't even me out. >> unfortunately, he did. >> chaie: in a tuxedo or just

a navysuit? >> only at award time. >> charlie: writing-- you wonder why forhe theater is the easiesto writefo when you're writing something that y really have a feeling for -- don't know if easy is the wo but it's th most enjoyable worki on that no matter where it's going. >> charl: what do you do best in terms of writing? an e and ear for diague, for narrative, for a phrase? >> i think what i do best in writing is rewriti. i think on i get something that works or seems to work -- >> chaie: fineuning? >>fine-ting, polishing, honing. perhaps rethinking scenes. that's theost enjoyablepart the process. >> when i was in the army, europe, world war ii, i remembe sitting a smoking, one day--

ings were very quiet and said to myself, "if iver get out of this war alive, i'm going to be a writer. of some kind." i didn't knowwhat kd. but i had spent tw years rking in a facry before goininto the service, and i didn't rlly like it. and i said, "i'm going to be a writer no matter what." it turned out to be easiethan i ought -- that through sheer good luck buonce i was editg the writing,ne thing led to anothewith an almost -- how shall i put it -- divine relationsh -- smooth. i was ly unemploy once for three mont. >> charlie: when was that? >> after i left the reporter. >> crlie: yes. >> in1960, i spent some three months trying to fige out wha too and then i went into book publishing. >> charlie: who have been yo political heroes? >> politic heroes -- well, no. as a yog man, my political

hero was franklin d. roosevt -- obviously -after that, i didn't have very many litical -- charlie: yeah. heroes. i did admire john f. kennedy. i was beginning to get ait disillusioned with him by the time hwas assassinated but still, i h great hopes for him. aside fromthat, i don't think there haveeen any political heroes thai knew, though winston churchill, of course, is an inspiring hero. >> charlie: what about rond reagan? >> ronald reagan was a man for whom ihave enormous respect. he was n a brilliant man, but he was a very sewd man with a sense command,nd he did a good job for eight years. he's o of the few presidents who actuay leftffice after two terms as popular as when he went into it. and that's a testiny of some kind. but you hero, no.

>> charlie: stu alsop was my idea of a great comnist back in the 1960's and 1970's. >> charliewrote it with his brothe joe. >> right. i went to him he was kind of my rabbi in this thing going into the pundit -- and he said, "you know, you're well connected in washington. youhave been working around." throw in a little piece of information into a coln that nobody ee has and don't put it in the lead. that's what porters do. slip it in the bottom somewhere. throw it away. it will get noticed. then people will hav to read the column. it took me a while toet that idea across. but nowhat i try to writes opinionated rorting or informed cmentary where i don't justuck my thumbnd stare at the wall d come up with somethi but -- d don't compete wi the times reporters for storie if i s story, i'll turn it

over to them. but at t same time, you can pickp a piecef informati a dinner party or pick up the phone and get something that brings a column to lif >> firstcustomer, i you can use that word, i hadas goering, a he was infamous for inmidating and interrting the interpreters and sure enough, he interrted me, and colonel eamon, who was the chief prosecutor ocrime incorporad re in brooklyn said to me, "don't let this turkey interpt you." so he put me on t spot, and he madee disciine goering, a ving grown up ingermany, i remember an old joke and i id to him, "herr goering," misprouncing his name. theame in german means"little nothg, a trifle." >>harlie: you mispronounced

his name on purpose. >> on purpose. i said, "when i speak, you don't interrupt . you wait until i'm nished. then when you have to say mething, i will liste to you and decide whether it's necessary to trslate ." an he said tme, "my name is not goering,my name i not goering, myame is oering" and i sd to him, "i'll tl you what. i' make a deal with you. if you won't interrupt me again, i won't call you go-rink ain" and after th we becamereat friends. >> charlie: great friends? >> he insisted tospeak only througme and i finally figured out why. he saw himself, certainly, as a fure chief defendant in these trials. he knew that colonel eamon was the chf interrogator and he ew i was the chief interpreter and that putt all in good german order. >> what's exciting is you see people atheir point of cris, d it really does matter

especily in large deals, it tters to their lives. it impacts a lot of people. it's inherently interestg. any developmenin the papers we said i reflected in the process so that there i a stimulatio an exhilaration from all that but it's also watching history go by. and you can help in someway, that's very sasfying. if youon't have that so of tisfaction, the busiss is a bad business to be in because it's gruellg. there a lot of rejection. it has ups and downs. it's cyclical. therare a lot of bad aspects of the busins. >>harlie: and the stakes can be high. >> y can lose. you know. sometimes,hings don't work out. charlie: i would ask a - if yoare a pro baskeall player i would ask "what isour best

game?" being a financier, what is your best al? >> think in general, actually, i don'think of it that way. i think that as i go back in time, i would say e advice we gave er a long period of ars has a pretty hig batting avere. >> charlie: it's day in, y out. >>ay in, day out. where you realize you get -- along with business,ou begin to understd where companies d where you make mistake and that's a good pcess, and so you get a point whe you think what you cando is balance those considerations an develop a style, bause what we try to do is to y to companies, "loo here is our analys of the iues. herere the options. here are the pros d cons,the

options." investment bankers don't make the desions, shouldn't make the decisions. boards, companies, sreholders should do, but it' very impoant that peop anticipe the differtdirections things can go and their coequences. that's why our ients tend to reasonably successful in these transactions, because if you do a ltle homerk in advance and do a littl bit of thinking, you n reasonably ticipate the sequence in which things will go and th types of decisions peop will ha to make to have a longer time to think abo it and to pace themselves, and that' --hat's very importa. >> i think i stil would b a painter if photogphy wasn' there,ecause i really have this -- this desir to deal th images. the flat surfa, thingsike that. but photography was so -- it s

justhat i need, you know, it was like i wanted t go outinto the world, but the world was a very strge, complicated thing but i wand to be a partf it and paintingecluded me -- excluded me from the world. painting is -- >> chaie: you're less wness to history, u're more -- give evidence to ur own creativity. >> no, notust that. it's aolitary thing,but going ouide a meeting the challenge ofaking what is and makingt yours, that'shat photography does for me. you see, is not the subject that inrests me as much as my perception othe subject. that'shatakes it so wondful. there are many things to do. so man things to e. and yocan be part of it an yet be distt from it. it's a kind of a strangething. you're involved it, you fee

it, but yet y have this sense of detachmentand it's quite an experience that i just love t process. >> i was jt in china t weeks ago, where ipent 2 1/2 weeks there ani traveled throughout the place, and i saw the changes that had taken ple, and many of them are positive. people are going out of overty. there is a great press gng around people are liste to cnn much more. people are getting inlved. people are going to the ocean. the whole thing islowly channg and they're coming or here rightoday to se their national eople's congrs over to t unitestates to talk to directly and frankly about e rule of law in china. i'm not saying it's going to happen tomorw, but i'maying there is sometngn the horin that looks positive and we should pursue it as much as we can. it seemso me thehinese have ananmen in their backound.

wehould not let anybody forget it. ey are certainly not goi to forg it -- we don't have tha much oa role to play, actually. what we have t look forward is for those gns to come out, that tiananmen has not and ll not happen again, i pe. >> i chose 127. i walked throu my life triple-time in my mind and wrote down on aad what h totally wiped me out physicay when i saw thimn the flesh, right? when stard, art historian work in 1953 until today, it came to 127. i cut it to 111 becse evything is one plus i codn't afford the difference in the color separation, so 1 lefrn but it's a good list and it would byour list -- 50% of at i chose wou be yr absote list. >> crlie: what why do you say th? >> these thin, because of e geniuses w made it,have embeddedn them such a power, such therapeutic forces, these are curg things. these help y get through the

life, righ >>harlie: that's what they've done forou? >> yeah, se. i have to see them i've got to go back and p visits to these things. if i don'to and see saint teresan rome, it hasn't been rome i like to see -- >> charlie: yocan't go toome wiout being there? >> no. i've got t see th. >> crlie: how often do you go to the metropolitan museum of art? ur former place -- >> not a heck of a lot. i go when there is a show i haven't seen athing of. >> charlie: how many of ese are there? >> qte a few. >> charlie: why n't you go back and see em. >> i do. i go to thecloifters and see that but it's me fun to go to -- i go to the cloisters and see that but it'sore fun to go to europe, to go to vienna. >> charlie: you believthere is a csensus abouthat would be the 100 bespieces of art -- >> 50% of my list and 50% only the high professnals would have ever heard of it --ou've got to spend your life -- they paid me a very good lary and expenses andbig-me expenses

to do thing but appreciate -- to go and look at grt art and i uld have dinne in madrid arting at 11:00, e at 1:30 in the morning and i would s, "hey, can i stopin for a couple of hours?" he would say, "fine,"t was the director of the prado and i would be in the prado alone f anour and a half in the middle of the night. >> needless to say, any society is a complicated society, and you could find al these type of -- but fro myoint ofiew what is not very well understood here is that these sorts of feelings are not the most important. that is not the things abt ordinary russian really cares. russian care aboutbeing otected. out having - about not being blown up in hisown home. t feeling indanger of this. is not vermuch tnking

about nation pride. >>harlie: it enhaes mr. putin's prestige and eeem support? >> yes. in a degree. bualso from my point of view it's not very well understood here is athe essence of pun's support is not cherch nobl the essence of -- the putin's support is not - chernobyl, thessence of putin's suppo -- rsian public very mh needed somebody who pursued it, that would deliver chewing gum, somebody who will be prepared to make tough solutions,to implent them, to be resnsible for them, et cetera.

>> by inclinaon im an activist and i'm very interesd in polics but i lovewhat i'm doin >> charlie: public picy, you saidis more fascinating for you. as mh satisfaction as acting, it is a passionate intest in issues that concer all of us. >> the answer two sides to m nature that i caidentify readily -- the acting side, i get -- if i'm lucky enough and i have been lucky enough with plays like rodgers or david met or david ray and some films ihave been in i get to express some transndant truths in imaginary ways and corived circumstances becausectors and artists in general c speak to people in ys that politicians and joualists andther peopl nnot but in some very real ways where iimpacts on real-life situatio in dierent ways, sometimeshe artistic worldeems a little too aloof for me and i like a nds onxperience with real pele and real circumstances and situations.

>>his is a huge chalnge exodus the people leavi are the peopleho have to be in iraq to build , doors, lawyers, professionals all sorts and they're the middle class s this is going t attack iraq long timeo recover from but let me just say that this stor very moving, could be said abo hundreds of thsands of people. they all have slightly different stories but it's the samelight fr terror. toind safety innother cotry. some peoplcame with resources but if they didmaybe a year two ago, those resources cld well be us up by now so they're living withfriends, wi family, they're livin on the economy, they can't work, this isn't alassic refugee crisis where people are goin into camps -- it's nolike darfur. these areurban refugees primily being absoed in damaus and amman. most of the people that my colleagues at refugees international taed to last fallhen they were in syria a rdan say they don't want to

st there. ey want to go to europe. theyant to go to the u.s. they want to go to austraa. so ts is not going to be a lolized problem. people want to getout of the reon. they want toet to a place where theyave a ture. ey don't see a future back in aq. they don't s their future in syria. they see their fure elsewhere. captioning sponsor by rose comnications captioned by dia access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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