>> ros welcomeo the broadcast. tonighan elusive conversation with america's envoy to the mide east, foer senator george mitchell. do y have a hardtime with the percepon on the one hand that we are not an innocent broker? >> oh, i hear ate lot but i don't believe ito be true. >> rose: do you ve to speak to it? >> oh, sure, yes, i do. relarly. here in thunited states, in eupe and in the middle east. that asseion isased on the asmption that the uted stes cannot at the same time be totallyommitted to israel's security-- which we are--nd be tally committed to the creation of the palestinian state-- whicwe are. and believe that those e not

mutually exclusiv to the contry, that i believe th are mutually reinforcing. willhelp israel get security for its people i the palestinians have a state and this issue is over. >> rose: george mitcll for the hour. next. ifou've had a coke in the last 20 yea, ( screams ) you've had a hd in giving college holarships... and support to thousan of our natn's... most promisi students. ♪ ( coca-cola 5-note mnemoni)

captiong sponsored by rose communications from our studi in new york ty, this is charlie rose. >> rose: george mitchell is here. he is president obama's scial envoy to the mile east, the former mne senatornd jority leader has a proven reco of brokering agreements. he chaired e peace talks northern iland that lead to the historic good friday agreement of998. in 20, he lead presidential commission to tend cycle of violence between palestinis and isrlis. his new mission is to advance president obama'sommitment to comprehensive ace in the middleast. he has spent the past year tryingo get palestinians and israelis bacto the negotting ble. manyay the administration's eay focus on a complete settlement freeze d to the currt stalemate. senator mitchell is returning to the region this nth and i am

pleased to he him at this tae at this te. so welcome. >> thanks, charlie. >> rose:reat to seeyou. >> you,oo. >> rose: what's the mood over there about the possibilits in a few year? >> i think there's moreptimism there than here t you have to temper it with t reality of the difficulty, the complexit e length of the conflict. i'll be goingack in the next few days andy slope thawe ca make pgress on ree trackswhich is the efrt that we've en making under the direction of the present and the secretary of state. rst political negotiations to gethe parties into meaningful negotiations thawill produc a peace agreement. secondly, surity to make certain thatny agreement enres the surity of the people of israel and the palestinian pele and the surroundinstates. and third, economic growth and what we call institutional effos to helpthe palestinians improve their ecomy and t

encourage the current prime minister-- an impressive person, laam fayed-- who is trying to build from the gund up the institutions of governae that will bable to gove effectively on day one of the palestian state. >> ros they also callhat bottom-up. >> bottom-up/topown. >> ros are the israelis supportive of at? >> yes, they are. they've taken step in the west bank toeduce the number of checkpoints and roadblocks. to facilita access movement, d commerce. there's a long y to go, obviously, f the palestinians it's not enough, for the israelis it's lot and we keep workinwith both sides in an effort to improve it. t the palestian economy will show signicant growth this ye. obviously from a low base, t nonetheless improving. their securityorces are outstanding by any measure, t israelis a very, very open in their praise of theeffort that's been de on palestinian security. what we want to do is t make certain that when t

palestiniastate is established as a resu of mningful potical negotiationsthere is from the fir day the capacity to gern effectivelyand we support prime nister fayed's efforts in tharegard. >> rose: there is this impression reflected in the "new york times" editoal that the past year has not been successful because the administrati stressed a settle freeze. >> charlie, a ltle over a year ago... before i knew... h any idea thai would be asked to take this job i was in israel and i ve a speech at the university a the question i s asked about northern eland and in my answer point out that the peace agreent in northern ireland came 800years aftethe british domination of ireland ben. after the speech, a grou of people gathered around. u know how it is when you eak people want to shake your hand, ask you other questions, make cments. an eerly gentleman ce up to me, hard of hearing, id? a loud vce, he said "senator

mitchell, d you say 800 years?" i said "yes, 800 years." he peated aga in a very loud voice "800 years? " i said "yes." he waved his hand, he said "no wonder you settled such a recent argument." >> ros (laughs) those are ings, an issue that's gone on longer tn 800 years is going to be resolvedn few months and if we only take this step or that step, really i think our misperceiving the complexity... >> rose: but the argument goes ngor this idea. by focusing on aettlement freeze-- which isrlis were unlikely to agree to-- you created disappointment from the beginning. because it was a unachievae objective. >> all you have to do is go back and ad the pers over the past five six years toee that it was not the obama administration or thsecretary of sta or i who suggest a settlent freeze in this instance. everarab country-- cluding

the palestinians, 13 of whom i visited before we began subsntive discussions with the israis-- said that there would not be any steps unlesthere was afreeze. secondly, you've be in a lot of negoations. if you want toget0%, do you begin by asking for 60%? >> rose: no yousk for 100%. >> tre you go, charlie, you've already figured out negotiations! >>ose: (laughs) so wt we got was a moratoriu, ten months far less tn what wa ruested butore signicant than any action taken by any previous government of israel for the 40 years that settlement enterprise has existed. ten months of "no n start in the we bank. less than at we asked, much, much greater tn any prior government has done. and wehink over tim it' going toake a significant difference on e ground. >> ros and youand sretary clinton praised prime minter netanyahu for agreeing t that. >> yes. >> rose: it does not include a

jerusalem. there've been announcementn the last 48 hos of new settlement construion in east jerusam where the pestinians want to make their capil. >> yes. >> re: and it's in the midst of paleinians. >>f you go back ov time and look at camp did and the prior forts, you will seehat t single most difficult issue amidst an array of extreme diffult issues is jerusalem. and it is ver complicated, diicult,emotional on all sides. jerusam is significant to the threeonotheistic religions-- chriianity, judaism, islam. it's importa to everybody. we recognize that. and we tryo deal with it. bu understand the dierent persctives. israelnexted jerusalemn 80. >> rose: "anext" is an impornt rd. >> annex is a ry important word. no other country including the

united states recognizes that annexization neitr do the palestinians. but for tsraelis, what theye building in is part of israel. the others don't see it that wa so you have thes wily divergent perspectives on the subject. our view is let's get into negotiations. let's deal with the issues and co up with the solion to all of them including jusalem which will be exedingly difficult but many my judgmen possible. the iselis are no going to stop settlements in... or construction in east jerusalem. theyon't regard that a settlement because they ink it's part of iael. >> rose: people recogniz the annexation. how many count please? to the bestf my knowlee, there aren't any immediaty after the annexion thunited nations... >> rose: so you're going to let them go aad evenhough no one recognizes t annexation. >> you say "let them g ahead." it's what ey regards their

country. they don't say there letting us go ahead when we build in manhattan. rose: but dot international rules have somethingo do with what somebody cando to define as their countr >> there are disputed legal issues. of that there can be no dot. d we could spenthe next 14 years arguing over disputed legal issues or we can try to get a negiations to resolve them in a manner that meets the aspirations of both societies. keep this in mind: th isrlis have a state, a vy successful state. th want security, which they ought to have. >> rose: most important to them. >> most importanto them. the paltinians don't have a state. they want one. and th ought to have one. weelieve that neither can attain its objectiveby denying to t other side its objective. the palestiniansre not going to get a state until the people of israel have a reasonable sense of sustainable secity. the israelison the other hand, are not going to g that reonable sense of sustainab

secuty until there is a palestinian state. and so we think rather an being mutually exclive, they're mutually reinforcing. and we tnk both sides would be better off to get into a negotiation, to try to achieve the peace agreement that in my heart andoul cybill possible. difficult and complex as i may be. >> rose: why do you believit's possible? >> because it's in the best terest of the people on bh sis. >> rose:t's been in their best inrest for a long time. >>despite the horrific events of the past half century, a of the death, allof t struction, all of the mistrust and all of t hatred, a substantialajority on both sides still believ at's the way toresolve the problem. and you say it's ban tha way for a long me. it has been. but i believe with all... with everything i have thathat the's no suchhing as a conflict that can't be ended. colicts are cated,hey're conducted, there sustain by human begs, they can be ended

by human beings and i believe this one can be ended and i think it will be ended. >> rose: and dyou have aime fre for it? two years? >> we theyhe negotiation should last no morthan two yes. we thinkt can be done within that perd of time. we hopthe parties agree. peonally i think it can be done in a shorter perioof time. >> rose: the big question going into thiis the israelis say we nt no determine rders. palestinians say no, no, weant the '67 borrs as wheree start from. how do you get past the proble of whe the negotiatio about boers starts? secretary of state clinton made statement just recently in which she set forth the positions of the two sides and expressedhe vie-- which i strongly hold-- th through negotiations those can be reconciled. and the palestian view isthat you shld start with the67 lines with agreedwaps. both sid understand it's not going to be the '...

>> rose so settlementsill have made difference in terms of the way the final borders are dermined. >> there no doubt abouthat ani think that's a fairly universal undetanding of that. th's just areality th's going to have be dealt. with youan ask wishfullythis things might be as y would like them to be or you deal th them as they are and i think we have to deal with them as they are. but there will be adjustmen with aps and what i believe i that we can ge an agreement on th once we get em into negotiations. i think here, charl, the hard part is getng started than gting finished. >> rose: how are you goi to sell abbasn the idea that even though you' said y will never negotiate as lo as there's no free zon settlements i'asking you to negotiat one thing i learned i northern iland is you don't take the first no as a final answer. >> rose: yes. >> nor the secondno. nor e hundred no. nor the second huredth no. you have to keep at it.

charlie, i w in nthern ireland for five years. ihaired three separate set of discussions. the maybe notiation lasted 22 months. for 700 days on side sai "we will never agree t new institutions bween north and south ireland." the other sesaid for 700 days "we willnever agree to a new northern ireland assembly." and on the 701st first day they both agreed to what they said they wldn't agree to. now,bviously, we have great reect for psident aas. we think hend prime minister fayed present strong and effective leadership for the palestinian peop and are the ones that we think are going t produce a paltinian state. but our eort is to persuade em that the best way to achieve that objective is to get intoegotiations and perhaps the are some oer things that can be done th they will regard as positive and as a sufficient bis to get io the

scussions. >> rose you've said one of the lessons oforthern ireland is you never take away the rty's dreams. they've had a drm that will be like theyassionately have wanted. it will not be that way but the have to go into it believing it might be possibl >> that's right. it's very portant for every invidual human being and societies toave dreams,hat i call aspations. have meaningfuloals that you reach for and the wayo make progress is aim high, make a meaningful effort and make steady progress tards your goal. d waitin around for the perfectsolution to come floating down from heaven usually doest produce any progre at all. >> rose: now everythg you've said we've known and wise preme known for a longime. you have to believe in this, you have to negoate, you have to talk.

but you need to have concrete action. somebody got to do something that encourages th other pern to d something. who's prepared to do something to encourage t other to do something? >> well, you have seval things. first, the iaelis have taken sts. >> rose: the moratorium. >> the moratorium is significant. they've reduc roadblocks. they'v reduced some checkpoints. they're encouraging economic growth. palestinians are making very significant steps. until the last couple of years, the prciple problemhere from their de was the absence of securi and the absence-- the complete absence-- of any effort to restrain those wh were engaged in violence against israelis. that was the israelis' angle. don't have a partner. they're not doinganything about the terroristand the vience. you now ha a ghot is doing sothing actively, aggrsively succesully as the israelis acknowledged so both sides have moved quite way. not enough t satisfy the otr.

each of them has got a long list of things th want the other side do and our efft is to get em together to star moving in that direction you have one other thing, chare, which i want t comment on. you have a president and a secretary of state who are completely a totally and personally committed to th objective who are ver deeply involved and i beeve th's going make a differenc >> rose: somehow that diffent from previous administrations? >> because at lst the last two administrations, the efft began late in e administration. the annapos pross, which which prident bush and secretary ce deserve cdit didn't begin untiloward the end of the president'serm. this president began 48 hours after taking office. he appointed kw this position to ds after he was sworn inas president and you know wh he said? he said"i wantyou go over thertonight." i said r. president, i've got a wife and ks, i don't have anclothes with me, i haveo go home and tell them m going to leave." i had go he far day to get

ready to-to-go. he was anxio from the first to get into it. >> rose: okay, but tl m.. since thmoment he saidhat to you and the mome that you prepare ne week to beack ther things are better or worse? >> o they're much better. look, when hsaid that t me in januaryf 2009, there had st come to an end the fice conflict gaza. there w no prospectof any discussion, no possibility of any negotiation. israel had an election coming up in two weeks, they didn even have aovernment that we could talk to. we didn't begin substaive discussis with the current israeli governnt until may rose: what have we done that's made a difference? >> i think huge diffence. the prident went toairo, delivered a speh that i thi willo down in the history books d transform amatically... let me finish. americ views, views tord erica and americans throught the regionand wve now undertakenhe initiative that

we've started, the points i made earliewhich i won'tepeat in the interest ofour time and the viewe'time about what we're ying to get done. the preside has been over the several times, the secrety has been there many times. i've been ther every month just about since i tookthis position. soe're makin anntense effo to demonstrat that we are committed to this process. let me make clear. >> whewe getnto a negotiation, we' going to be involved in an active, sustained and determined way to try encourage the partiesto reh what i belve is an agreement that is possible. >> rose: two questions come up. nuer one, there is an argument made that if you look at when there's be real progress, it was when thenited states was not involved, was no engaged. does tt argument have merit with you? there >>here haseen some progress whenhe united states was not engaged. >> when the paies themselves had to see in the their terest to do something. >> that's a huge issue and we have to encourage them te greater oership of the process that they're involved in.

but let's be clear. while some pgress has be made absent direct erican inlvement, in the end what reements have been reached were dectly the result of american paicipation at the hight level: campdavid volving president carter, president clinn and the jordanian agement, present inton and the effort at camp david which didn't quiucceed anwhat we're going to have to have is continu and active american involveme. and with thi president and with this secrery of state i tnk we're going to he a mbination that hasn't been matched in moder history. >> rose: thether side of tha is they're saying we need more amican involvement and the united states should bdoing something to bringogether fatah d hamas so tha the palestinians ske with o ice. the prime minister ofatar said that very similar thg in the last three days. >>yes. charlie, one of the things i get when i go over there i one here

is "u americans are too ssy." in the oth ear "we needore american involvement >> rose: rht. and what are you tting from the arab neighbors? >> wel there isi believe, a strong feeling tha the te has come for negotiations to begin. we're gettina lot of encouragent in th regard. what we want from them is to build on the arab peac initiative prosed by the king of saudi arabia in 2002, supporteby all of the arab and indeed, muslim... non-arab muslim countri. and to engage with israel in a way that moves tord the full normalization. we don't ask for full normalization no and i'll gi you specific examples. whate want is a parallel procs. as the israelis andhe palestinians talk in negotiations israel, th palestinia, and all of the surrounding countries would meet to deal with regional issues:

energy, water, tde, communicatns, transpo. all of which have been diussed in t past but haven't been brought tofull true wigs. and we think the way t move forward an israeli/palestinian agreent. israel and syria, israel and lebano and fullmplementation ofhe arab peace initiative. that the cprehensive peace in the region that is the objective set forth by the prident and the secretary of state. >>ose: that's the grand bargain. >> tt is. >> ros speaking of the syrians and turk, is thatdeal, se iselis going throughurkey or the united states going rough turkey deal with t syria, does it haveegs? >> we've tried very har i've metith the turkish adership, including their current foreign minister many times, including in just t last few weeks a we've tried very hard to g the syrians and th israelistoeengage. until now, e syrians want to mplete the indirect talks

through turkey that ban in 2008 but ended when the gaza conflict erted. the israelis prefer immediate and direct negoations with the syrians, not completing the indirectrocess through the tus. what wve said to th two sides we want to facilitate their coming together and iill be going to both israel and syr on my upcoming visit tory to further ts process and we're prepared to do in the many any manner wch is succe to feel the two sides. so farhey have not found a formula that will enable them get into itbut we're persisting in that. and we belve that a israelyria track could operate in parallel with an israeli/palestinian track on diussions. >> rose:he end result of an israeli/syrian track wou be syria's recognitn of israel? >> yes. peace betwn the two of them. dramatic chaes that we... >> rose: andou think it's possib they can age on things like borders and golan heightand all of tse isss?

>> yes, i do. >> rose: that you belie? >> i believe that,es, i do. >> rose: from talking to both des? >> y. yoknow they've come very close in the pas and i lieve they can doo now. >> re: and israelis accept that idea that we n give up the golan heights and still be secure. >> they don't accept the ia of ging them up. that's part the negotiati and, of course, at the syrians don't acpt is the id that they're going to stop providing assistan to hezboah and hamas and chaing the relationship with iran. you're getting into the sject of negotiations now. you can't say to one side "you have togree in advance to what the othe side wants." you'veot to getthem into a negotiation so they can en reach a mutually advantageou compromise. >> re: what is it th esident abbas wants? >> a viable, independent, geographically contiguous palestiniastate based on the 19 borderswith mually agreed swaps of land. >> rose: and what do you say to him that makes himelieve that's possibl

well, i say that it is very much in th interest ofhe palestinian people. that iis possibleecause i lieve that there's widespre recognition in the region among palestinians a israel alike that th is in the mutual interest and there are other greater threats the region. the continue efforted by irano extend its iluence into the gulf region has raised concerns, indeed, alarm among many of t ab states. and the best way...he mechanism which iran extends its inflnce in the rion-- one mechanis- is through these conflis. through supporof hezbollah, through supporof hamas, through me efforts that we made public duringone of my visits ovethere, effts now in egypt. and i t method b which the e seeking to extend that influence is these conflts, then the best way tolose off that alteative, thatechanism

for extenng influee, is to end the conflicts. to enable the people of the region to recognize the common threat and to act together in unon against that thrt rather than disagreng among themsees. >> rose: how big aroblem is the gaza invasion that took plac >> it s a very serious problem from the andpoint of the reaction of tharabs and the palestinia. >> rose: that'the reason the turkdropped out of bein the diator, is it no >> well, the mediation ended t moment tha the... >> rose: the invasion took place. >> theonflict began. >> ros are the israeli continuingtongage in embargos and nctions that prevent the palestinians in the gaza to have some kd ofmprovement in their life >> yes. they have not permitted full opening of the croings. >> rose: do you agree with that? >> i think they would bebetter ofif they reopened the crossings. fr their view, ey are trying to contain hamas and they are trying to maintain the maximum

lerage to obtainhe return th captured soldier. remember n, you have to keep this in mind, chare. it's a very fficult type of conflict in which people are engaged. when fighters gather populad areas, when medical and other facilities are used as military staging areas, fight the kinds of conflicts in modern times i extremely difficult, particularly with the overwhelming imbalance in fire power that exists. and these ar not easy queions resolve of how do you respond when rocts are nt into yr country? >>ose: at the timeof the iro speech, while everydy applauded the speech, everybody else said in the next breath "there going needo see action. they're going to need to see so action following that aspitional tone that the president set in cairo." >> yes. yes. >> ros and we haven'seen

that action. >> well, we are trying, charlie. thquestion is, do you produce action... >> rose: fair enough. >> within24 hours 24 days? ere's no doubt that e commitment is ther but,ook, about a few weeks after i was appointed this positioni read an article in the paper that saidhat the united states hadn't ce up with a new solution d hadn't resolved the ddle east conflict. newspaper right. (laughs) >> well, i mean, i wiswe cod. we're all impatient at the lack of pgress. but ep in the se htorical rspective. this ia difficult, complex situation that's gone on for a very lontime and we are making what i believe t be significant progress. rose: are you carrying any new ideas to the middleast next week? >>hat we're going to tellthem at we think the ti has come to eer negiations and at we think... we wi lay out what we think is a proper basis f doing so, a timerame for achievg agreement, a mhod of

negoating that we think will achie the desiredesult. >> rose: can't you telle what the method is, snow is it keeping it ambiguous? getting th to talk is the grea advancement w need now. they're not talkin to each other. >> that's right. >> rose: so theirst step is to get them to talk. >> well, basically what we have suggested to the israelis is a series of steps and actns that they could take thatwould encourage president abbas to entethe discussions. >> rose: why can't you telle wh they are. that's my question reall >> because i want them-to-discuss itith them before idiscuss it with yo rose: fair enough. but just seems ke this can't be grea secret, can they? or not? >> there are no magic bullets here,harlie. if you asked a hundred experts on the middle eastwhat are the steps at might be taken... >>ose: they would all ree on mo... >> they won' agree,ow you'll have different opinion bus they'll all cover the same ground. they have to do with whats occurring on the west bank, dealing wit chepoints, movement of... >> rose: and that's getting better becau of prime minist

fayyad, the palestinians? >> it's a very impreive leader. >> ros the more heoes bottom-up uff, the more the israelis are willing to lsen the tensions at the checkpnts. >> that's pt of it. to also expand the areas in whic palestinians hav both civil and security authority. to entable better movent of goods in those areas. to take other ste that will provide at a direct econoc benefit to the people. greater freedom. to te some steps with respect to gaza. ask the palestinians to take other steps. to ask thearabs toake other steps. we've set these all out. i want to be car thatn the steps that we've asked, we he not presented them, nor do we regard them, as ends in themsees. they are means ton end. the enis a pceagreement hieved rough direct negotiations by the parties. i just described to you what we

want to get the arab states to doith respect to regnal conferences. >> rose: right. >> trade relations wh israel. communications. trsportation. all of... cultural and polical exchges. all ofthose things are among thactions that we are asking people to take. >> rose: is e arab initiativ helpful? >> y, it is. i commend the king of saudi arabia for the effort. it is aositive step in the right dirtion. by itself won't be enough. itequires a netiation and a discussion. its very ter it requires a negotiion. says a negotiated end to th israeli/pastinian conflict. we're tryin to, in effect, fill in the spa that it creates by calling for this type of agement. >> rose: i the iselis thought that rael coulive in peace

and secuty, most o the raeli leaders that you know would be prepared t suort a palestinian stat with some variation of the '67 borrs, some respect for east jerusalem and jesalem being an inrnational city. i'm going to what barr rac had on the table at camp david. but, remember, barack lost the la election. >> rose: but he'sow the defense minister d he has a voice. up >> he ha a very important voice and he's an outstanding leader. >> rose: and remember th. the pestinians turn it down! they turnedown more than they are likely to offed today. >>ell, tt's another reaso r getting into negotiations right away, because the options aren't geing anyetter. but i don't wanto speak for the israeli leadership. >> rose: just want to make sure we understand t issue. the issue is security. if they thought the had security

most of the israeli learship would... >> well, charlie, jiz a vibrant democracy. dollaride range of views among the israeli leadership and ong the israeli public. under their sysm, they have a lot of parties. it isn't like ours, a twoarty syst. so they ha coalitisnd ere are a lot ofhat weall single-iss parties. so you could make almost y statement on t subject... >> rose: and somebody... >> someone will support the views. so i wouldn presume speak for that and we ar not to b critical of the fact tt it's a brant democracy where people debate and discuss a disagree on isss. what i am saying is that believe at a majority of the people of israel for a two-state solution and with adequate securityssurances woulberepared to mov forward on tha basis. that's certain not a unanimous view, but i believe that's the majority >> rose: on the other hand, ere's not a unanimous view thin the paltinian

community... >> no. >> rose: that the think they shou recognize israel or not engage in someind ofction against them. >> well, that's the principle difference between fatah and hamas. the palestinian authority, which is basically the fataharty, believes in non-violenc and negotiatn. hamas believesn viole resistance and the destrucon of isrl. andhis's the difference. >> rose: is any proess being made on bringing hamas and fatah together? >> there have been extensive discsions. >> rose: wt egyptians and evybody else. >> l by the egyptians and everybody else. they're still in some disaeement. look, think eveone should participate. but we think they should participate based upon a mmitment to democrati principles. we think that that's the y to get people moving forward. to get a commitment that we agree to peaceful negotiation, we accept and hon past agreements and w.. when we reach agreement, thawill be the end of it.

now,hat's incompatible with some of the cims made by some of the particants who say "our go is the complete destruction of isrl and we don't recognize prior agreement" how do you expec to sit down and talko someone committed to ur destruction. rose: but if you talk long enough, u believe, people will come around andind reason to ange their opinion. >> that has ppened in my cases in the past and there are other casewhere it did not happen. and what you he to do is to try to make rationalnd scerning judgments about whher or not that is possible. >> ros here you go. george mitchell in nortrn ireland had no problem with talking to the i.r.a.. on the other hand... correct? >> no, it's not correct. >> rose:kay, tell me why. >> fst, i never talked to the i.r.a.. >> re: by i mean... go ahead. >> thesecond question s the polical party affiliate wit the i.r.a., sinn fn,nd the same on the unionist side. ke in mind, i mentioned

earlier negotiions in northern ireland last 22 mths. for the first 16 months, sinn fein did not participate. not until they agree privately me and pubcly to what became known as the mihell prciples... >> ros sinn fein was the litical arm of the i.r.a.. >> that's right. but my pointis theyidn't participate in t talks until 16 month after they began and only when they accepted the mitchell principles ich cal foa renunciation o vience, willingness to participate thugh democratic means and to accept the result of th agreement and not try to change it force. >> rose: but you did not demand that they give all thei weapons. >> well, iot started in the procs over there on the whole subject weapo and nobody's demandinthat the weapons be given in the middle east. what i said was that they shod be parallel and disarmament came later. in tend, we got a peace agreement and the disarmame

has occurred. and that's because we had patiencewe had determinaon, and we had a clear set of prinples. anwhat we did was to say we want everody there,but you have to commit yourself to abide by democratic principles. charlie, let me use an absurd example to make thecase. we all agree eleions are essential to democracy. t it is very important to understand that ections by thselves doot make a mocracy. decracy is an ongoing obligation. if a political leader inhe uned states-- repuican or mocrat-- got electedn a completely free an fair electionnd then announced "i'm going eate a militi, and if i don't get mby that the congress i'moing to feel free to use the litia." wod you they'semocratic, even though he got a elected or she got elecd?

>> rose: no. >> of course not. so democracy, let's clear, is an ongoing obligation to abide by demratic principles. and torenounce the us of violence as aeans of achieng your political objecves and to cept andonor prior agreements. that's what what we're askin that's not a lot to ask. now, i think the way to do it is to get the process going. create some incentive for people to partipate. at's what happened in nohern ireld. there was no inctive for sinn fein or the i.a. or... >> rose: or they wer tired of the conict. >>hey were very tired of the conflict. and on the other se you had the sa situation if not a parallel becse you had several smaller organizations, no one enti, but you h political parties and paramilities. and what we... theard part wa getting started in a process which was seen as fair and ope and which began t be seen as hang at least some prospect

for success, althoughhat was ry problematic. and th peopletartedoming . that's what i think need here. rose: you hope to accomplish this in twoears. the moratorm is for ten months. >>es. >> ros that gives you an incentive to say to thearties what? you better get this done is we tter get this done before they start... because t morarium on allows...if settlements are important to your the absee of settlements, you bett get something done befor the moratorium ends because i don't think can get it again. >> charlie, will y come with me on my nextisit and make at spiel? it made sound better coming from u. >> ros what this conversation is isn't is what you're going over there and a what you hope to and how you... t also insi the head of somebody o's done it before. you're not without experience in this arena. there's the talk o arisoner exchange. would that build confidence th israelis cld gethamas proner back? >> wel that will not bui

confence with the palestinian authority because it wl, in fact, be seen as a validion of mas's tactics, violen resistan. it's vy important politically d emotionally in israel to obtain the releasef the prison we underand that and i think the prime mister is trying very hard do that. >> rose: well, the egyptians have gotn involved in tt, too. >> thewere involved initially, the german mediator g involved. but e point, is it's an excruciatingly dficult desion because itoes send the message thatheir viont resiance has paid off a it will lead others aund the world to seek more hosges and that's one of the toughest decisions th the prime minist has to make andwe acce the realityhat he' got to keep making this effort. t what we think is that there should also be actions taken wi respect to the palestinian

thority which believes in peacefulegotiation and that's the approach that ought to be warded. >>ose: is there an incentive to do someing about this in israel today? >> oh, i lieve the prime minister is definitely committed on this. i believe that he wants to brin th to a conclusion. >> rose: and howuch incent sieve there to d somethingow becausesraelis loo at demographics and they look at a window that y be closing on two-state solution >> yes. i ink that' a huge incentive for that and other rsons. i think the are other reason as wel but let's take the degraphics. if youount the number of arabs in israel, in gaza a in the west bank, they ar about equal to thenumber of israelis, jewish israis. antheirthrates among the

palestinns and israeliarabs is rising more rapidly so the demographic lines a crossin about 2010/twaef. that poses a serious problem for israel because if they can't get a two-stateolution, theyant it to be a jewish state, a position we support, but that will be difficult if they arin a minority. thsecond reasonis technology. if there is an iron laof human story is it that apons r rapidldisseminated and the vention of new apons quickly spread aund the world. right now what you have are rockets being disseminated. an estimated 30,000 to 40,000rockets held by hezbollah on isrl's norern border. hamas having i don't kno the number butubstantial number ofockets and while t technology ofparticularly the hamas ckets is crude, there's

obviously an on gog campaign to upgrade. >> rose: and there's an as market out there >> >> oh, there's a ge arms maet out there. the trade in arms is very very large. not just to increase the number of rockets but to increas the guidance sysms, the range, the destructive power. iran, of crse, is very actively engagedn a missile program that now has... >> rose: supporting hezboll and has. >>nd its o direct capacit withmissile that cod reach israel. so there is a long-range threat posed by technology. and the final threa, which is a political one, is isotion. the best thingor israel, not just for its own surity but for its dealings with other nationbesides the united ates is to enter into a negotiation,each an agreent, have a comehensive peace of the typehat i just described earlier sch i thinkould go a

long way toward ding the ineasing isolation thathas occurred in many respects unfairfully judgment but netheless something that has to be dlt with. so i thin leade stlip is fully aware of allof this. on the other hd, they have mediate security concerns that th have to deal wh and so ere's a constant balancing. >> rose: youave been a majority leadein the united states senate. you have been a distri court dge, if i remember. a majority leader in the uted ates senate. it is id bill clinton was prepared to put you o the supreme court. >>e did. he offered the positiono me. >> rose: exaly. >> and yet the is thishe most chalnging, the most excing, the most interting thing that you have done in your professional life? >> actlly, that's been sai about almost every job i've underten at the time i hadthe b. >> rose: harry reidwould say... >> you left out steroi and mar league baseball. >> rose: well, i did. bui was... >> actuall, this is very difficult. it is complex. there'a long history here.

there is... on bothsides there's a see of grvance, of victimization. there is widesprd mistrust, hatred, even. and so you earlier use the rase confidence buding. i have to tell you, i think that's reall an overstatement of what we're trying to achieve. it isn't so much you're goin to get to the point of trust and confidence, that you're going to get to the minimum level of mistrust thatakes possible action by political leaders in very difficult and hostile circumstances. t me tell you, charlie, it takes a lo of courage for these political leaders operate in these circumstances. i sathat firsthand in northern ireland. i see it firsthand now. therere direct threats agains em personally their families. >> rose: on bot sides. >>n all sides. these men a women bh who serve in these leadership positions take ermous political risk. they take a lot of abuse. we understand that i politics...

>> rose: and ey're not in control circumstances so they mamake an initiive and all of a sudden somebody decides to tu it against them and they lose the suprt at home. >> the slightest concession is en as weakness. of cavinn. the lack of conviction. these are not easyituations to deal with. so i gss i'm... it may sound naive and silly, b i admire the men and women who take these leadership positions becausef the urage they display and what they're doing evens they often fail to do wt i think cessary in the circumstaes. >> rose: b even though the discussion, i would argu, has not cnged much. mosteople they the outlines the settlement are the same and th most... the argumentsave beenssentially the sam, have th snot. >> that's what makes it frusating, charlie. that what makes it frustrating. >> re: does this make it frustratin do youave... you have lot of carrs. do you have y sticks. >> oh,sure. >> rose: what? >> wel both sides. >> rose: other than saying

"good-bye, take care of yourself we're out of here." >> wel both sidesmake the same argumen to men revse. that the real problem, they say, is you haven't preured the other de. >> rose: yea, exactly >> cut tm off, tell them you won't help them anyre, you won't do athing, we'll walk away. i say, would y like us to do that to you? oh, no, but you should d it to the other si. threality is that, yes, of course the united statesas th carrots and sticks. you have to be very caful out how and whenou use them. >> rose:hen was the last time we ud a stick? >>fghanistan. >> rose: oh, i know, b nobody's talkingbout the united states troop going in. they're not. i mean, ge me an example. i'm serious about th. you sit there and you say to israel, ok, if y don't do this.. what? >> under erican law, t united stas can wihold support on loan guarantees to israel. president geor w. bush did so. >> ros exactly. >> on oneccasion. >> rose:nd his father. >> well, the law that... the

most recent presiden bush acted under wa't in place at the time of tirst president bush. so there were different mechanisms. that's onemechanism that' been publicly discussed. there ar others. and you have to keep open whatever optio. but our view is that we think the way apoach this is to try to persuade the parties what is in their self-terest. and thi that we are making some floghat regard ande're going to continue in that effo anwe think the way to do it is to get them into negotiatio. >> re: is there much of a perception that we... do you have a hard timeith the rception on the one hand that we are not an innocent broker? >> oh, i hear it a lot, but i don't believe it to be true. rose: do you have to speak to it >> oh, sure, yes, i d regularly. here in the unitedtates, in europe, andn the middle east. that asseron is based on the

assumption that the unite stat cannot at the same tim be tolly committed to israel's security which we are-- an be totay committed to the creation of the palestinian state-which we are. d i believe that those are not mutually exusive. to t contrary, i believe they are mutuall reinforcing. it will help israel get securi r its ople if t palestinians have atate and this issue is over. >> rose: but that's a harde cell. you've goto convince nam havi a palestinian state and makingoncessions and taking someisks far is the bes way to achievehe security. long-term security. and onhe other hand, for the palestians it is that you're not going to get a state until theisraelis have a reasonable and sustainable sense of security. now, charlie, what ie found-- not just in the middleast, i found in in northern irand. when i te positions that agree with tir pre-conceived motns

they tend to think i'm very smart and they le me. >> rose: and noniased. >> and when i takepositions thaton't have to coince with their views, i'm not so smart. >> rose: you take positns in these negotiation >> oh, of course i do. ofourse i do. i participate actively. >>ose: in terms of taking sitions. why is psident obama's polarity so low in israel? it's%. >> no, that'sompletely false. >> rose: have you heard that before? >> i've heardthe figur and you're citg a common cited blic figure. >>ose: exactly. so tell mewhy that' wrong. >> because it's simy not tru several polls that i've sn in the pastonth show thahe is... i'll give you the numbers. 49% farable, 45% unfavorable. 43% favorable, 37% unfavorab. it's a reasonable number. but a plulity support him in isel and smaller plurali oppose him. >> rose: i don'tnderstand how

his approach is different from the pvious president,he previous presint, the previous president. >> well, i just cited one way, he startedwo days... >> rose: oka, i t that. agre he got in early. i got that jup >> sondly, he went to iro and gave an histoc speech. that's another way that it's different. irdly, a fultime envoy working on it. i don't want to say 24/7 because it's not quitehat. but it's a figure of speech. working at it full time. participatg with... >> ros but all this has to do with involvement and engagement, it doesn't have to doith different idea does it? or different positions or different anything. >> wel charlie, it's different in the sense that it evolves over time. but if you're saying that look, we've been drinkg water all th time and haven'tome up with a n liquid, just think how long the wor's been drinkingater. and why haven't we come up with a new liquid that does the job? that's the stuff... >> rose: maybehat i'm saying is it's not a question of new

ideas, it's question of very skillful negotiations th have to takelace in order to get people to come in without pre-conditions ando take a ance and tak.. and risk f a longer term solution ion't... by... i don't wan toule out new ideas in the sense that we don't suggest ne approaches. apoaches that at one time and circumstance might not be appropriate buat another par policies change th circumances: we're constantly updated our thinking. when meet the. i'll be meeting in the next wk with egypans. >> rose: the war net brussels? >> y, in brussels. i'll be meeti with israelis, palestinians in the here in futu. we constantly make suggestns on how theo this. he's the best way. if you do a b, c,nd they do d e,, will you be able t get together? so far we haven't found the

righfit thaten co-insides. onof the things i learned in northern irelands the old saying timing is everything in life. what cotantly happens is when e side is ready, the oer side inot. and byhe t time the other side gets ready, these gs are not. and what we have too isind the formula tha gets em both rey at the same time. on all ofhese fronts want to emphasizpolitical negotiations security for both people a what you call th bottom-up-- correctly-- economicnd stitutional growth so that when the pestinian state is created it is capable of functioning effectely in day one. i think that's a vy important factornd i'll close with this. i menoned elier... we haven't even talked about implemtation. in northn ireland it tk three sets of discussions, five years that i w there before we got an agreement. it's sense then been 12 years and the agreement still has not been fulmplemented

difficult it is to get people to agree do the right thing, it's far more difficultto get them to actually to do it after they aee do it. so the real key here isto reach an agreemt that is solid blt a foundation that tt exemely difficult process of implent station afterward can work and will succe. that's why t united states involvemenis so portant. there is no entity on t face of this earth other than the united state gernment public or private entity, that can create the ctext within whh angreement isossible d, most importantly, can ensure to the extent hunly poible that full implementation will ocr. and that requires a president and a secretarof state who are coitted and deterned and believe me we have them now. >> rose: thank youor coming. i know you have not de many interviews, so ihank you for taking tim here this evening.

>> crles, trlly, always pleasure. >> rose: former senator grge mitchell, foer judge geoe mitchell, lawyer geoe mitell now envoyto one of the most crucial areas in the world. thank you fo sharing this time with us. we'll see you tomorrow night. captioning snsored by ro communications captioneby media acce group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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