>> rose: welcome to the broadcast. on the historic day in which a president signed health care reform legislation, we talk to david axelrod senior advisor to the president. >> when the chips were on the line, he went out and he sold it. i think the thing that you say is a transformative, i think it's transformative in the sense that anyone who doubted his strength, his perseverance, his willingness to go out and do what he feels is best for the future othis country think is not asking that question today. >> rose: david axelrod for the hour. next. ♪ if you've had a coke in the last 20 years,

( screams ) you've had a hand in giving college scholarships... and support to thousands of our nation's... most promising students. ♪ ( coca-cola 5-note mnemonic ) captioning sponsored by rose communications from washington d.c. this is charlie rose. >> rose: president obama today signed what some are calling the most important piece of domestic legislation in more than a generation. after decades of failed attempts democrats overhauled the nation's health care system and

expanded health care coverage to an estimated 32 million americans. before a euphoric crowd of supporters in the east room of the white house, president obama noted the broader meeting of the moment. >> it's been easy at times to doubt our ability to do such a big thing, such a complicated thing. to wonder if there are limits to what we as a people can still achieve. it's easy to succumb to the sense of cynicism about what's possible in this country. but today we are affirming that essential truth. a truth every generation is called to rediscover for itself. that we are not a nation that scales back its aspirations. we are not a nation that falls prey to doubt or mistrust. we don't fall prey to fear. we are not a nation that does what's easy. that's not who we are. that's not how we got here.

we are a nation that faces its challenges and accepts its responsibilities. we are a nation that does what is hard, what is necessary, what is right. >> rose: with me now in washington, david axelrod senior advisor to president obama and a member of the president's inner circle who helped help is therd reform bill through congress over the past year. he just left the bill-signing ceremony. we're pleased to have him here on our broadcast at this very historic time in the country's history. thank you. tell me about the moment. >> it was extraordinary. my day began, i left my apartment building before dawn and a man on the street stopped me and he had tears in his eyes and he said "my father died when he was 63 and he had no health insurance and i'm so ashamed. we were relieved because we couldn't help much and we were going bankrupt." he said "no one should be in that position. my father's hero was franklin roosevelt." he said "my hero is barack obama.

please tell the president thank you." and tears streaming down his face. and that set the tone for the day. in the room there was a real sense of history. so much of what goes nonwashington is trivial in many ways. there's such a... people are so consumed with the sort of rat tat tat of the polls and elections and who's saying what about whom and who's up and who's down. but in this day, there was a sense that something important had happened that's going to change our country for the better and everyone. in the room who participated in it felt a sense of ownership and pride and probably was thinking about some one in their family or some friend. and it was just an extraordinary day. >> rose: you told me come nag there that there were some people who saw congressmen even hugging senators. >> yes! that's how extraordinary it was. the lambs and the lions all together. it was... i think there was a shared sense of pride and for me

charlie, i have a daughter with a chronic health condition and when i was a young reporter, i almost went broke because she... i could not... my h.m.o. would not cover her care and all the out-of-pocket expenses and so on were more than we could bear. and i was thinking about her and about the other families who weren't as fortunate as we were at that time. and in the future they won't face that. in fact, this year children will pre-existing conditions now can get on their parents' insurance and it's just going to be a... out-of-pocket expenses will be... it's just going to be a much better situation from this point on. >> rose: i know that you and the president said you expect there to be a lot of conversations about what all this means politically and all those kinds of questions. but you are determined to say let's not forget what this moment is about.

it is about a historic change in terms of who gets insured and who will be able to have access to medical care and what it might do for the economy. >> and one of the things i'm so proud about is that the president in all these 14 months you know, he never flag it had, he was unrelating. he understood the politics. he always felt this was bigger than that and that if you do the right thing that ultimately the politics will work out. i remember walking into seeing him last summer and i said to him, you know, this is costly. i mean, you know, the polls are difficult and there's a lot of grousing on the hill about it and this is going to cost a lot politically in the short run. and he said, you know, i know you're right but i just got back from wisconsin and i was with a 36-year-old woman who had ovarian cancer, two children, she has insurance, she's married

but the insurance doesn't cover her treatments and she is slowly going broke and she's worried she's going to leave her family bankrupt at the end of this. and he just patted me on the shoulder and he said "so you know what? we've got to keep on fighting. it's worth the fight." >> rose: was there a moment you thought you might not be able to make it? >> oh, my god. this thing... phil shellero, the magnificent legislative director for the president told him at the beginning mr. president, health insurance reform will die five times before you sign this bill. and the only thing he was wrong about was there were probably many more than five where we thought, geez, is this the end of the road? the only guy who said, you know what? we're going to find a way to get this done, was the president. and he even after massachusetts, after the massachusetts primary which was viewed as such a blow, he... his attitude was we just have to figure out how to navigate our way through this and regroup. >> rose: take me back to that

moment because that was a significant moment after massachusetts and people said you no longer have 60 votes in the senate so you've got to change their tactics. you've got to change your direction. you've got to change whatever. what was it like? what was the discussion? what was the conversation? >> well, you know, one of his great attributes is the ability to look long and what he said was, you know what? let's give this a little time to breathe, we're not going to be able to do anything today or tomorrow, but let's do some reconnaissance and let's focus on some other things. we've got a state of the union coming up. we've got some jobs programs that we need to pass. let's give it a little time. he already... shortly after that he said one of the things we need to do is cleans the process in people's eyes. there's a sense that it's been done too much behind closed doors. let's... and he surface it had idea of having a summit with the republicans where all the ideas are out on the table and so on which ultimately we did. and then he started meeting with the speaker and with senator

reid to work through what they thought was possible. he had already been having meetings before massachusetts to work out the differences between the senate and the house bills. late into the night in the cabinet room the president was working through with members of congress how to resolve some of their differences. but now, you know, there were additional barriers that had to be worked through, including institutional mistrust about who would go first and what they would do and so on. so there was a lot to navigate. but he was very cool about it and very determined that we move forward. although others... you know, as you can imagine, many people said we've got to fold our cardsing we've got to settle for something less. and he was not of that mind. >> rose: my point here is to understand history, nothing more. >> understood. >> rose: it is said, for example, that rahm, the chief of staff, said because of his legislative experience maybe we should slow this down.

maybe we should take only part of what we believe we can get at this moment. >> well, you know, the job of the chief of staff is to provide options and certainly rahm provided options for the president and gave him choices. >> rose: the kind of options he presented were... >> well, certainly... >> rose: let's look to the republicans, maybe there are places we can... >> there were variations on what you could do. but there were two things about it. one was there was no... no one was at the end of the day really persuaded that it would be that much easier to pass something smaller than to do the comprehensive plan. and secondly, we all knew-- and the president most of all-- that in order to achieve the major things that everyone agreed we need to achieve you needed to do in the a comprehensive way. health reform is like a rubik's cube and everything fits together. so, for example, if you don't have everyone in the system, if

you don't cover everyone, you can't really deal with the problem of pre-existing conditions and getting people with pre-existing... ending the discrimination against people with pre-existing conditions because you need to spread the risk around in order to achieve that. so the president was... you know he listened to various options. but there was never a time when he said, you know, i think we ought to scale down our ambitions. >> rose: never waivered in terms of scaling back from the comprehensive? >> never did. never did. he thought this was a once in a lifetime opportunity to solve a problem that has plagued this country for a century. and he wasn't going to let go. >> rose: what was different this time? >> well, i think he was different. that was one thing. i mean, obviously... you know, the composition of the congress was helpful. but it takes a single mindedness on the part of a leader to push something as difficult as this. and one thing about the president is that he's always

looked long. he's always... you know, during the campaign he used to say "we have to think about the next generation not just the next election." that wasn't just the line. that's what he really believed. and he believes that we're here... that we've got these significant challenges that have been ignored for years and kicked down the road and now we have to deal with him or face a less good future. and he was determined to do it. and this is obviously one dark cloud on us now and in the future so what was different was that he was willing to push all his chips in the middle of the table and say i will take the political risk of doing something significant. >> rose: it is also said that this may be transformive in that he decided that he really had to go for what he wanted. that he may be very well moving a bit from the center to warrior. >> you know, i've always viewed

him as a warrior. so... but there's no doubt that he... you know, he is a commonsensical person. he's a consensus builder. but once the... once he got... and he drew from republicans and democrats. the plan that he ultimately proposed was a zipt sis of how to replace what we have today, not replace it and not to hand free rein to the insurance companies. and he was absolutely convinced this was the best way to move forward and when the chips were on the line he went out and he sold it. i think thing you say is transformative what...'s transformative is that anyone doubted his strength, his perseverance, his willingness to go out and do what he feels best for the future of this country i think is not asking that question today. i have an interesting experience the other night. i was at an event in washington. there was some ambassadors from

other countries and they said "we're all watching with this with great interest." >> rose: as a test of this president? >> that was the implicit. they weren't unfriendly but they wanted to know... it wasn't just a test of this president, it was a test of this country and whether we could organize ourselves to deal with big things. to deal with big challenges or whether we would be consumed by our... >> rose: coming at a time when people say washington doesn't work and washington can't get things done. >> exactly. and that's one of the benefits that you say is transformative. i think it important from the standpoint of our ability to do what past generations have done and take big difficult challenges and meet them. and so that also is why this is so important. >> rose: at the beginning, everybody wanted him and the white house to lay out its plan. you went to the congress and said we want to hear what you want to do. it will be a dialogue. people in the congress say you clearly had ideas about what was the right thing to do. >> yes.

>> rose: in the end, how far did you come towards getting what you wanted to achieve in health care reform? is it 50%? is it 75%? jo >> i don't know if i can put a percentage. but we got substantially what we wanted. are there nuances that we would do differently. perhaps. but given the enormous obstacles that we had to overcome, the basic principles that the president laid forth in the beginning are satisfied by this plan in that it has substantial health insurance reforms so that people have more control over their own health care and less at the mercy of health insurance bureaucrats. it expands coverage, the availability of coverage so small businesses and people who don't get insurance through the job and aren't poor enough to get it on medicaid or old enough to get it from medicare will be able to get it at an affordable price. it bends the curve on costs so

that overall our health care spend willing rise at a less rapid rate and that has huge implications for our fiscal situation. so all of those things were satisfied by this law. so he and we well satisfied with it. >> rose: you say and the president says on this historic day "we're prepared to go to the country and have our health care reform as a referendum on this president." >> yeah. i mean, you know, charlie, i've heard the sort of... the talk from the other side about how they're going to go for repeal and they're going to turn this back. i really do welcome that discussion. this year alone millions and millions of small businesses are going to begin to get tax credits to help them pay for health care for their employees. i'm eager to see if the guys and gals on the other side are going to go to the small business people in their districts and states and say "you know what? we don't think you should get that tax credit. we're going to raise your taxes

again." i wonder if they're going to go to the kids with pre-existing conditions who this year will get coverage because of this law and say "you know, we don't think you should get that health care. is" and there are so many things in this law that go into effect this year but i think it's a terribly difficult case they're going to have to make that all these good things that are going to happen we're going stop them from happening or take them away from you. >> rose: having said that, do you believe you did an effective job in selling health care reform to the country and being able to create the narrative that was reflective of your intentions? >> well, i think it's a monstrously complex debate to have in the context of our politics and so we had to work within those constraints. i came to the conclusion months ago and i said it to members of congress that the only way people are going to fully appreciate what this... this

restorm if we pass it and implement it and it becomes not a caricature but a recalty. and i still believe that. so i think it will be easier to sell it moving forward than it was to this point. but even in the weeks, in the six weeks and partly... more than partly, i think a lot because of the president's own energy and his own commitment to this, the numbers started moving up again from after massachusetts. that was 13 or 14-point swing so it became a roughly divided thing. and today there's a new gallup poll out that suggests it's swung the over way and close to a majority believe this was a good... >> rose: but doesn't that almost by definition say you weren't doing as good a job as you could have and it took waking up after the scott brown thing and being able to put the president out there more on the road, get speaker even manufacture charged than she was in order to raise the profile at stake.

>> i think what massachusetts did was it sent a strong signal to supporters of health reform they that we needed not to make the perfect the enemy of the good. and it solidified our base because a lot of the debate we were having wasn't with the folks who opposed health insurance reform, it was with people who felt it didn't go far enough. >> rose: right. >> people who wanted... who really did want government-run health care and didn't feel it satisfied that. people who didn't want insurance companies involved in providing health coverage. that debate really ended with massachusetts when people realized, you know, this isn't the panacea in our view but it's... even today, you know. you have to unpack the opposition to health reform because if a significant percentage of people who opposed it opposed it not because they thought it did too much but because they thought it did too little. people who wanted government-run health care, which is which this is not. >> rose: but have you given up? the president has always said he was in favor of a public option,

yes? >> he said he that he thought that was a good vehicle to promote competition. now the goal, though, was, charlie, to get choice and competition for these small businesses and for these people who couldn't get insurance. >> rose: and to compete with insurance companies in order that they would be more efficient and less... >> but what we believe is that in the health insurance exchange that's being set up that there will be impetus for this kind of competition and that there will be economies that will flow from that and that there will be more and better care given at a better cost. >> rose: so therefore it's not necessary to come back and add to this by creating some kind of public option? >> let's see how this works. i think this is going to work and the president believes this is going to work. >> rose: in terms of its impact not only in more coverage but also in the conduct of insurance companies? >> yes. and of course there are so many more tools including appeals processes if you're denied care and medical loss ratio formulas

in here so that insurance companies are prescribed to have to do 80% or 85% of... take their premiums and use it for care and not for bonuses and not for administrative costs and not for shareholders. so the vast majority of money that they collect from their customers will be used for health care and not for their corporate purposes. that's part of this legislation. there are many, many things here that will discipline insurance companies. they can no longer engage rescissions throwing people off of health care because they become seriously ill. they can no longer enforce lifetime caps and restrictive annual caps so that if you get very sick they can say after some point "we're not going to cover you anymore." all of this is built into this legislation so people all over this country are going to have greater security than they had before today. >> rose: do i hear you saying "let's wait and see how this works before we think about how we can improve it?"

>> i believe it's going to work. obviously anything in every endeavor you have to allow for the fact that there can be improvements made later. but i have great confidence in what we've done today and i think we oht to wait and see how it works. >> rose: two of the arguments were made, one was that you tried to do too much too fast and there was a debate about-- at least in terms of people who commented on this and when the going got rough leading up to massachusetts that you should have postponed health care and that should have done it incrementally because the economy was where your focus ought to be. has your approach to this economy, your focus on the economy, your commitment to doing something about jobs been in any way affected by the attention health care took? >> i really don't think so. charlie. in fact, the first thing that we undertook was a series of measures... were a series of measures aimed at getting the economy moving. the recovery act, stabilizing the financial system stabilizing

the auto... none of those particularly popular, by the way. all very difficult. and it's interesting that many of the same people who are chastising us for not paying enough attention to the economy would not participate with us in trying to deal with those issues early on. and it think those things have worked to help stop the slide. and we're going to continue to work. we just passed jobs legislation, the president just signed. we've got more coming to help small businesses in this country by cutting their taxes, afford them more lending. we're going continue focusing on the economy and we have throughout. but i think health care is a part of the economy and as i said, i think the four million small businesses who will get tax cuts or tax credits this year as a result of this legislation for health care are going to be in a stronger position to hire and to grow because of what we've done. so it's all related. >> rose: judd gregg who you

know, the senator from new hampshire, who you were prepared to offer a position in the cabinet said on this program last night that that this legislation and this fight define the president as a social democrat in the tradition of european social democrats. >> you know, so much of what's in this program takes market approach. in fact, the core of it, creating this exchange or marketplace that we just talked about, is based on the notion of choice and competition between private insurance companies. it's an idea that the republicans professor to embrace. so i think that's... i mean, just because you're doing something big and solving a problem doesn't make it a left idea. i heard the debate on sunday in the house and i couldn't match their rhetoric with what we were doing. here we're doing something that really resembles what mitt

romney did in massachusetts that was based on ideas that bob dole had about how we should proceed, that really mirrors what richard nixon tried to do in the '70s with health care and all of a sudden it's now socialism? it just tells you where the republican party is. >> rose: well, it comes on top of the commission circumstances that you inherited and things that you had to do to continue a government intervention in the economy in order to save 6-save the financial structure of the country. on top of that, it looked like that was mind-set of government intervention. >> but judd gregg knows and many others know-- though they may not say-- that so much of what we did, even the recovery act, a third of the recovery act were tax cuts to small businesses and middle-class people all over this country. so,, you know our interventions in the phenomenon system are now winding down to the point where the government is... we're on a

line to recover the money we put in there. so, i mean, i think that obviously alternative to have left the financial system collapse and to slide into a second grade depression was completely unacceptable. but what i think people need to know about barack obama is that he is a pragmatic person first and he's looking to solve problems and move this country forward. and he borrow ideas from the left, he will borrow ideas from the right. he will synthesize ideas from democrats and republicans and find the best prescriptions for moving forward. and in these challenging times that's the kind of leadership you need. >> rose: what have you learned and what in terms of this process gives you enthusiasm and courage to go forward in big ideas? >> well, the success of it, certainly, gives us encouragement. >> rose: encouragement and confidence? >> i think what we learned, charlie, is not to trim your sails in making your case, to

take it right to the american people. to be open and to challenge the other side to put their ideas on the table and have a good vigorous debate. and i think that's what happened since january and it resulted in the victory we saw the other day. >> rose: okay. in other words, when you're tired, when you're exhausted, when people are saying change your end goal... >> i think if you look at the events of the last few months, some of the milestones of it were the president's visit to the republican caucus, the summit. and his... >> rose: what did the president's visit to republican caucus do, in your judgment? what was the accomplishment of that? or the consequence. >> what it accomplished was that rather than shooting inveblgtive over cable television, we had a discussion of ideas. their ideas and our ideas. the president challenging theirs them challenging his. i think that's what the american people want. there was an openness to it.

an open debate that people appreciated. i think they felt the same way about the summit. >> rose: does that mean, for example, that in terms of whatever big issue you are tackling now on you're going to turn your guy loose, so to speak? you're going to say "let obama be obama"? >> well, we're certainly going to do that. and i think he would insist. but i think the other thing is that we are going to demand that those who oppose what we're trying to do put their ideas on the table. and it may be at some points that we will find areas of convergence that will be... help the country in a very positive way. i think on the health care bill, as i suggested, some of the major concepts were ones that republicans invented. >> rose: but the argument still there is that somehow that this administration had finally come to the conclusion that bipartisanship-- as much as they tried-- was not going to get them there. and so therefore they had to go

partisan,. even though republican amendments may have been incorporated, even though there were no republican votes in order to achieve the goal. at the end of the day, this is not going to work so we've got to go this way. >> well, i mean, obviously if you make the offer and you want people... we had a republican senator come and visit with the president over the summer. they went through the health care bill. the president said this is a good idea, that's a good idea, i can do this. can you do that? and they had a great conversation. at the end of it, the president said can you support the bill now? and he said probably not. and the president said why snot he said unless i get nine other, ten other republican to come with me, politically i can't do that. that creates a very difficult situation. you saw senator mcconnell, the republican leader of the senate, in a "new york times" profile a couple of weeks ago basically... it was reported that he told the caucus at the beginning of the administration "we're not going cooperate on any big things, we're not going to give him any

victories." and i guess theory is that if the president fails and the country fails that the republican party will be victorious. and i think that's a very dubious strategy. and it's been a little bit exposed in the last few months. >> rose: (laughs) someone said this might be your waterloo. what happened was you were wellington and not napoleon. >> exactly. i think it all worked out better than anticipated. but way back in the spring senator demint said if we can defeat obama on health care, his presence, he'll be crippled and we'll benefit that from that. we don't think that way. we want to move this country forward and we're willing to work with them to do it. >> rose: does this do anything to change-- let's assume it was an attitude, this is our opportunity to stop the president and we're not going to play any... we're not going to participate by offering up our own proposals, our goal here is to stop the president perhaps, because, honestly we disagree with what he's trying to do but we want to stop him and therefore we're not going to get

into a negotiation about our proposals. >> yeah. >> rose: has that changed for the future? >> by the way, i have less concern or objection to efforts to stop the president when there are principled disagreements. what i object to is stopping the president as a political strategy. and that's what we've seen too often. you know, senator shelby holding up all of the president's appointments. senator bunning doing what he did, tying up the floor of the senate. the republicans walking away from their own debt reduction... their debt commission proposal... >> rose: the bipartisan commission on debt. >> because the president endorsed it. seven of the co-sponsors who were republican walked away and killed the bill. those are the kinds of things that frustrate me and i think they frustrate the american people. >> rose: on this historic day that he signed this, did it take a toll in any way as far as you can see? when you look at the presidency, you look at your goals, you look at what you want accomplished. not the 2010 election but the idea of what you came here to

do. did that effort because of the fight for health care reform suffer? >> i think that at the end of the day, charlie... >> rose: was there a toll? >> yes, we expended some energy and some capital. but the good that it will do is so enormous and ultimate they strengthens and weakens the ability to take on problems to prevail in such a spectacular fashion. i think that is all to the good. i understand... i've heard some of the limit stations from the other side. lamentations. >> rose: but pundits are saying some of the same thing. >> i understand that. and there's this well, you know, we're not... i was disappointed. i say senator mccain say "we're not going to cooperate for the rest of the year." that's disappointing for me. i know he has a very difficult primary in arizona from the right and perhaps this is in his political interest to take this position but ultimately i don't

believe... i think there were people of good will in both parties who understand that the scorched-earth politics isn't helpful. and certainly i think they understand that the president is the a person of persistence and that's ultimately not a winning strategy. >> rose: so what comes out of this is that the president's perseverance and being willing to fight to the end for what he believes in is something that serves you well. >> i think so. and i think it's what distinguishes him from what people have of our politics today, that people are so consumed with elections that they lose the larger meaning. >> rose: were you worried for a while about the perception of him? >> i wasn't... >> rose: perception, not reality. >> no, i understand. i was aware of the perception. it's my job to be concerned about such things. but i also knew what the reality was and ultimately i think the reality has shown and, you know, even his opponents are writing today, well, we have to concede

he's a strong leader and i believe he is. >> rose: okay. let's assume that's the conclusion at the end of this day, his historic day and you've asked us to keep focus on the fact that people have access to health care. >> and more security if they do have health care. >> rose: and that's what makes it historic. do so where do you look and say presidencys are about big ideas and big things? so what's next on the horizon that demands the same kind of... >> well, obviously this was a 100-year debate so it's hard to... but i think in its own quiet tway education reforms that arnie duncan is leading are transformative. this recognition that if we... if the country's that outteach us today are going to outcome pete us tomorrow and we have to deal with that problem. and he's doing things that... he's going far beyond what other education... >> rose: i think it's fair to say you're already getting

credit for that. people who will criticizing your health claire say on education... >> i think financial reform is an important piece of this. because we need to revise our oversight to meet the challenges of the 21st century so we don't end up in the same position we were a year or two ago. financial reform is very important... >> rose: there's a case again where senator dodd had to say, you know, it was a case where we're not going to get any republican votes here. so we better take this approach. >> and we'll see what happens on the final vote, charlie. it's bewildering... perhaps they think it's good for... i did read that the republican leader in the house, mr. boehner, met with one of the leaders of wall street and said you guys ought to support us and our candidates because we're the ones who are standing between you and financial reform. so perhaps it's a pragmatic judgment on their part that there's money to be made, some

campaign money. but on this question of partisanship, this president stands ready to meet and work with any... he spent countless hours with republican senators trying through the summer and the fall trying to work through health reform. >> rose: but here's the problem with... >> if people don't want to play, it takes two to tango, if people don't want to play it's very difficult to make hem do that. and we have a responsibility to move the country forward if they decide that they want to sit on the sidelines or throw wrenchs in the works. >> rose: will we see more in terms of big issues of our time of what happened at the summit and what happened in terms of what we went into which many people thought was good for the country as well as for the president as well as for people like, you know, paul ryan and others have a chance to stand up and say mr. president, this is where i respectfully disagree with you, on these ideas.

>> we would like to do more of that. we would like to... and certainly there are a series of issues that we're going to have to deal with. energy is an issue we're going to have. >> rose: do you think cap-and-trade will make it to the senate. >> i know that senators kerry and gramm and lieberman are working hard to fashion a proposal that can pass in the senate and we'll see whether... what form it takes. but i know that we're going to have to work on energy. it's just a... it's a great challenge of this century. we have to face it. and, you know, the chinese are working on it. india's working on it. brazil is working on it. we can't hang back. we have to continue to lead and to do that we have to get serious about energy. i believe that we will do something on energy. >> rose: give me a sense of what you having come to washington have seen. how is it different than you expected? how long will you stay? and where are your...

>> you know, it's not different than i expected. jack kennedy said after he became president, i said what surprised you he said i were surprised that things were add because as i said they were. i knew what washington's idiosyncrasies were. i will also tell you i think i have the greatest job in the world. i'm working for a president who i deeply, deeply respect and it's a thrill to be by his side. i have colleagues that i love and we're doing consequential things. ef meeting i'm in is about something that's consequential... >> so you didn't come here saying i realize we have a president who is committed to being post-partisan that he can achieve that and now you look at it and say i expected more than was real. >> i still have hope. i'm not... i haven't given up on working with... i cross the aisle on issues. maybe it will taken a election or two for that to fully

ferment. maybe... sometimes it takes a while for people to realize what the best path is. i think that more and more you're going to see people of good will on their side of the aisle say, you know what? we've got to get off the bus here, this is not headed in the right direction. i still have that. but what i know is that what they'll find is a president who's willing to work with people, whatever stripe of... of whatever stripe who want to move the country forward and is willing to listen to ideas. and that hasn't changed. >> rose: you know what they say in they say yes, indeed, the president will listen to me but he didn't... he wasn't willing to compromise. he was willing to listen but not compromise. >> yeah, i know what they say but i also know what the facts are. i know, for example, i told you the anecdote of the one senator. and i think the thing that sticks in my mind is that story about senator mcconnell. i mean, let me give you another example. the president went up before the recovery act to talk to the house republican caucus and ask for their support. >> rose: this is the stimulus

bill way back when? >> the stimulus bill. they in the hour before he arrived the leadership told them we are voting as a block against this. well, it's hard to pro molt bipartisanship with that kind of an approach. what i'm telling you is i think that approach will ultimately be rejected. i know there's a lot of thunder on the right and there's a lot of concern about primary challenges and you see what's happened in florida with governor crist and so on being challenged from the right. senator mccain is only a few points ahead of his challenger in arizona. i understand the pressures they face but ultimately i think the country going to reject a kind of mindless obstructionism and there are republicans of good will who are going to say let's find ways to work together. >> rose: so how do you characterize the tea party phenomenon? >> i think there's a lot of frustration in washington, charlie, and i don't think it's

aimed at one party alone. there's a sense that for too long in washington special interests have been to too powerful. politicians have been too self-interested and worried about elections. and there has been too much partisanship. you look at the polling that was done after the massachusetts race and that was really the message that people were delivering. more than half of them said we're not... this was not a message to president obama, there were less charitable toward the congress, but they were unhappy with republicans and democrats in congress. >> rose: but it was a mess ooj to the... i mean, there was a giant perception in the tea party that health care reform as making its way through congress was not in... was too much government and too costly. that was the perception. >> the interesting thing, since we're on massachusetts, is, of course, that much of what we're doing is patterned on the massachusetts plan that governor romney passed and senator brown voted for and 68% of the people in the exit polls in that massachusetts race said they

liked that plan. so, you know, i think that when people become familiar with what we're doing, they're going to like it as well. i think there is a genuine concern about the fiscal situation in the country and, you know, that's something that we feel as well. >> rose: speaking of that, how important is the reform of social security? there's a front page story in the "new york times" today. next big issue, social security pops up again. now that landmark legislation overhauling the health insurance system is about to become law addressing social security solvency could well become the next big thing for president obama and congressional... >> rose: >> i think we have a panoply of issues go to our fiscal solvency and that's why the president has appointed the commissioner that senator simpson and mr. bowles are heading. >> rose: but is that going to deal with social security? >> everything's on the table for that commission. it's not... there are no bount reis who-to-what they can consider. >> rose: what's your lasting

impression of what you have seen over the past year and where do you look at the best year and say we weren't very good at that >> i'm sure we could have communicated more consistently on the health care debate and where it fit into the larger narrative. but understand that this is a town that doesn't really... it's not all that receptive to larger narratives. it's very day to day, minute to minute. >> rose: does the bully pulpit have the possibility of changing that or not? >> to some degree it does. but, you know, unlike the past, even in the era of reagan, the media is so diffuse and there are so many outlets, i fwif example, the president did five sunday shows and the david letterman show last fall. >> rose: (laughs) yes. >> there was a lot of criticism, he's overexposed and so on. but i think a total of 14 million people saw him in aggregate.

>> rose: was this the operative idea then? as many people see us then it's a good thing for us? >> well, when you talk about the bully pulpit, the size of the pulpit matters. >> rose: right. >> and so you know we look for vehicles where he can reach large numbers of people. it's harder to find these things. >> i remember some of the criticism at that time was that the president was too much like a prime minister and not enough like a president. >> rose: that's a different issue, though, than his exposure. yi, i think he has been deeply involved on this health care issue in the legislative process. >> rose: he's been like a prime minister in a sense. >> i don't disagree with that. i am not all that excited about the level of involvement that he's had to have on... >> rose: it wouldn't have passed without it, would it? >> it would not have. >> rose: that was the wakeup call that you got after massachusetts. >> i would submit that he was involved before that. >> rose: so t wakeup call came before or that or was massachusetts in some way a wakeup call for unless we go out there with... no matter how the

level of involvement, unless we double it and double down, we're going to be... >> rose: i think what massachusetts did... he was out there quite a bit charlie before that. i think what massachusetts did was signal the closing bell on this debate. it was like now we're in the final laps, it's either going live or die. and it was clear that he had to go out once the final play was in place that he was going to go... going to have to go out and sell it. >> rose: characterize him at this moment. >> i think he's very, very... he's very much at peace and very happy. today was a very happy day for him. i said the other day to some people that i think he was happier on sunday night when this bill passed than he was on election night. i'm certain of it. and i asked him about it the next day and he said "that's right because the election only gives you the possibility of doing things, but this was a tangible big important thing that we could do for the country and we got it done and that's

far more satisfying." >> rose: i want to take this opportunity to point out you're here across from me to talk about the definition of this man. people say practical. they say intelligent. talk about the practicality of him rather than someone who is more ideological. >> well, he's not ideological, he's not dogmatic. there's no doubt that he believes there are standards that any society should meet and one of them is that people shouldn't go broke if they get sick. and that was something that was reflected here. but in terms of the means of achieving these things, he is not dogmatic. he is not ideological. >> rose: where do you think that comes from, david? you've known this guy. where does this... pa what part of his own experience? >> well, i think there are a couple of things about it. one, he's of a different... the generation from which he comes is not a generation that is... so many political generations before were influenced by the

new deal, the great society and so on. he came of age after that. >> rose: came of age after the civil rights movement. >> yes. so, you know, he has different... a somewhat different orientation. he's seen where government has succeeded and where government has failed and he is open to a variety of approaches to solve problems. i think a that frustrates people sometimes that he's not more dogmatic. but he's also... >> rose: is it part of the legal training that he looks and sees every side? is it that he's a consensus builder because of some experience he had growing up? >> i think those are quality he is grew up with. i think some have to do with his mother. his mother told him always put yourself in the other guy's shoes. he is one of the best listeners that i've ever known. it's really unusual. a lot of politicians view that period when you're talking as a

place for them to gather their energy for their next proclamation. he actually listens to people and he absorb what is they say and he tries to consider what they say and if they have an idea or if they challenge one of his, he really thinks about it and he's willing to make changes in his thinking based on what... on what he's heard. >> rose: and that might have happened in the afghanistan/pakistan review. people who participate in that say if they seemed like they were disagreeing but hadn't spoken up, he was more likely to call on them than otherwise. >> there's no doubt about it. and he draws people into these discussions and he likes to hear his ideas challenged. he likes to see other ideas challenged. and he has a tremendous ability to synthesize all of that and come to solutions to solve problems. it's a phenomenal thing to watch him go through that process. >> rose: here's another thing that's come you will up during the last year and especially in health care.

the connection, the emotional connection with where the viewers are. it is, i think, reflect... some people don't see that. they don't think that they see the connection and that he has not done as good as a job as he might have in making that connection. >> yeah, i've heard that. i don't accept that. i really don't accept that. i don't accept that because i've heard groups of people talk, i've heard voters talk. i've heard... and, you know the concern people had is can he... not about him, not about whether he's fighting for them, not about whether he's connected to them. i hear that all the time. what their concern was is can he succeed in washington? can you actually get things done in washington. that's one of the reasons why this is such an important thing because what it said is you can do... that you can set your mind on doing big things, bringing real change and you can succeed at doing it and i think this

will be a confidence will have builder from those people. and what i don't hear from people... and i'm not talking about the people who were opposed to him in the first place. look, there were a group of people in this country who were opposed... nobody wins by 80% in elections. and we have a polarized country. so there's a group of folks who probably are never going to be supportive of him. but there are a lot of people who are sort of free agents in this process and i think that there's a strong sense that this is a guy who understands the way people live, who shared their life experiences and who is in here advocating for them. i think there is a sense of connection and anybody who's watched him talk about this health care issue i think would come away thinking he really understand what is these struggles are all about and, of course, he has had his own struggles in his own family on this issue. so i don't... i mean, it's generally... it's generally elites who talk about how he doesn't connect with people. >> rose: people who don't

connect talk about how he doesn't connect. >> exactly, exactly. but you know, folks who don't real the new york review of books for fun and i do. but... >> rose: for fun? >> but, you know, everyday folks who are out there trying to make a living and raise their families i think they see him as someone on their side. >> so there s there anything missing about this guy that you would like to see him be or do? >> well, i'd like to see him be the greatest president he can be. >> rose: what does he have to do to be the greatest president he can? b? >> well, i think that overcoming... if we can overcoming some of these bitter divisions over time would be a good thing. but you can't do that by surrendering to it. you can't do that by saying okay unless i... as he said, bipartisanship doesn't mean you have an idea and i do what you

want in every instance. it means that sometimes you have... you know, that we compromise where we can and we agree to disagree where we disagree, but it's important for the country that we... if we can move forward in a... in a more cohesive way. >> any misconceptions of him? >> i think the thing about shim that is so unusual is he's extraordinary and ordinary at the same time. he's got an extraordinary mind but he has the sensibilities that most people do. he's just as apt to flop down and watch sports center... >> rose: or have a cigarette. >> a treatise on trade policy. he loves his family, the most important thing in his life are his kids. i find him to be the smartest normal person i know. >> rose: (laughs) thank you very much.

>> great to be with you. >> rose: join us on thursday night for episode six of the charlie rose brain series. this month's segment looks at the aging brain. we'll discuss memory loss, alzehimer's disease, and the biological basis for understand memory and other brain activities. tell me how you explain your remarkable things. >> yes, brenda! >> well, i'm going to have to put gene first because... >> rose: okay, gene's first. (laughter) >> because, you know, my mother who had a harder life than i did lived to be 95 and she worked... she was in music, different career all together and she worked at teaching. she taught music and singing and... to the age of 88 and she had to stop because she was getting deaf which, fortunately, i have escaped so far. and so otherwise she would have continued. >> rose: so genes is first. >> genes is first... genes are first. >> rose: yes, genes are first. (laughter)

>> british training. >> rose: thank you. fair enough. >> i think engagement... i believe in engagement in kinds of activities but not... it's very important for me to be engaged with young people and as i say when i was young i liked to be engaged with older people across the spectrum of ages and some problem that excites with curiosity. i think my real secret is that i'm so curious i'm extremely nosey about everything. >> rose: that's the best news i've had all day! (laughter) that's my profile right there. >> that's your profession! >> although i don't take formal exercise or anything, i walk... i don't drive a car, i've never driven a car, i live near my place of work. i worked 50 year as the neurological institute. montreal is a hilly city, and i walk to work and i walk back and i walk all over this stay city

and i do that because i enjoy walking. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org ♪

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