>> hello. i'm llewellyn king, the host of "white house chrinicle" which is coming right up. but first, a few thoughts of my own. those of us of the british persuasion or those of us who were once of the british persuasion are addicted to tea, black tea, also called indian tea -- not green tea, not of guilty -- herbal tea, but he is

so enormous to the english. they drank before breakfast, during breakfast, after breakfast, before lunch, and the afternoon, and often in -- at night they drink something mercifully much stronger. a little scotch whiskey goes well in tea, too. they use teabags -- not as and the pretentious hotels where they bring you all of this loose tea. lucy was a disaster bridge unless you are a politician and you want to read the tea leaves, otherwise you don't need loose tea. teabags work well. the british addiction to bt is quite exceptional. it started in the 17th century. but it really did not get going until the 18th century, the latter part of the 17th century, and then it it just exploded in england in the way it didn't

anywhere else in the world as a ceremony, something -- the english working class called their dinner, their supper, tea. the other classes -- everybody seems to be in a middle-class sense the politician told us we were in the middle class and we can get more benefits -- tea also involves cakes, clotted cream, superb jam, and it is taken very much in big hotels and people don't really do that at home a lot. tea is fundamental to the english. i have been looking at tea party spirit -- party. i know there was good black english tea into the boston harbor -- but i see something offer, terrifying, iced tea, and then herb tean herbo, no, tea

is black tea. it may be grown anywhere in the world but it is black tea that made the british empire great, and also ended the british dominance in north america. teartygoers', revers your and get it right for us. i have a very important discussion coming up with two very different journalists and they will talk about the tea party movement and all of that and probably not mention the eta at all. >> "white house chronicle" is produced in collaboration with whut, howard university television. now, your program host, nationally syndicated columnist llewellyn king, and co-host linda gasparello. captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org--

>> thank you so much for coming along. beside me is john gizzi of " human events closed with a conservative newspaper in washington, and bob franken, syndicated columnist and broadcaster of enormous global reach, as it were. i know you have something coming out and "newsweek" andwired" magazine and i saw you on msnbc during the health-care debate. when do you sleep? and you find that tea keeps you awake? >> this will probably cause a rupture between us. i never liked tea. i don't like it. >> for the future, the brokers are listening and will take appropriate action.

the tea party movement, john gizzi, is it the last gasp of white male ascendancy in american politics or is it something significant? >> i will call it the first gasp of a new movement with deep roots in america and i certainly would not call it a white american movement. i have a fine in turn, terence williams of michigan, who is african-american and he is proud to associate himself with that movement. the tea party movement really less about gender or less about race or heritage then it is about an issue -- small government and individual privacy. and that is what is catching on. >> tell me about small government. in the united states would talk about the desirability of small government and the tea party people talk about it all the time, and yet every day i hear people wanting the government to do something about something. the latest issue -- the very

latest, or i would say the latest two -- what are we going to do about wall street, regulation, more government, what are we going to we goingmine safety -- more inspectors, more regulation, more government. it is consent -- we ask the government to grow and then we say no more government. >> first of all, let us give the tea party credit for being a movement of people who are just disgusted. there is plenty to be discussed at about. the argument is made -- i am not an advocate as much as you are -- but argument is made that they are mad at the wrong people. instead of being angry at the government, they should be angry at those who not taken advantage of the lack of government, that is to say, the people who put us in this economic mess. many people think it is no accident that among the big sponsors of the tea party is don blankenship, president of massey coal, because he has been able to profit by the lack of

effective government regulation. so, one of the problems of populist movements often times is that they are overtaken by people who distort the good work that they might be doing, and that is the problem with the tea party, that the issues are so complex today and they have been dumb down to the point where many of the people don't really understand who it is they should be angry at. >> i would say with respect, gentleman, that the tea party movement would probably argue with both of you on that point. as for mine safety and other things, it is just not on the tea party screen at this point. it may change. >> government -- do you want government to do all of these things, all the things the government is asked to do -- something about the decline in bees affected crops, the death of the tradition of non of because it is a clone and they cannot go on anymore. we assume there are scientists doing this. last week we talk about nuclear security, etc.. this is all about the

government. if there is a disaster, we expect the government to be there. the first thing that happens if a state is flooded or has some other catastrophe is the government, the federal government comes in, declares a disaster. nobody says, stop the government, stop the government. >> i know several cases where they have, and in fact the mayor of omaha, nebraska, in 1997, told the government to stay out and let local government -- and that local government would be the first response. which is a very good american tradition. it is still local government working with citizens closer to the people. it is not the federal government. >> when you have local government working with the citizens you have very bad things happening often. the federal government had to come in. >> but i think your discussion really reflects the american dilemma. we seem to be two contradictory things at the same time. our tradition seems to be -- on

the one hand, we view ourselves as a compassionate country, one that takes care of its citizens as an egalitarian point to this. on the other hand we are, don't tread on me, where we have this underlying feeling that there should be no sort of a government, no sort of cohesive force that accomplishes those things. i think it is a contradiction that is inheritance and the entire grand experiment of the united states. you see it in the constitution. if you and i, john, have talked many times about the different interpretations that honorable people can have about the very same words in the constitution. that is my impatience with the term, or original intent. who is our original intent? who is dividing what the words really meant? but as i say, we can go back and forth for about what the role of government should be an jets are none of us really has a clear view of that because we are americans but that inherent contradiction. >> what i also find is more and more people believe they can make decisions better for themselves. i will give you a good example.

education. the vouchers and the charter schools have proven to be very successful. if you give people money and let them choose the schools they want to send their children, they usually get pretty good results. >> john, you make these fairly sweeping statements saying minorities in the tea party -- which are conspicuously absent -- >> conspicuous absence on the television. >> they are just not there. when you talk about your black in turn, to be perfectly blunt, it sounds like a southerner who used to be a segregationists would say some of my best friends are black. >> i am given an example of the grass-roots politics. let me give another -- in illinois, throughout the state, there were four primaries for congress at that point. the more conservative candidate won, and in one particular, superb and chicago, the one but a strong appeal to minority voters for charter schools.

>> against local communities wanting -- gave a 13-year-old example of nebraska and the fact that most of the -- for all the hypocrisy about the special funds available for boosting the economy, most of these localities have grabbed them, and happily so. so there is a lot of -- you can make very bold statement of the fact is the government is large and if you are going to cut the government you will cut it by cutting whole departments, not just programs, departments, but some of which were created by conservatives like the department of education. >> what conservative critic the department of education? >> william bennett was the education secretary. >> the very first education secretary was shirley hostetler, a judge in ninth sector -- ninth as a appeals appointed by jimmy carter. >> the point is education secretary --

>> he was one of them. >> but the one who really put -- >> let me questioned the proposition you are making, too, when you talk about government -- what government? the conservatives would argue of course we need a government. we can be an anarchy cut -- notwithstanding the view of the tea party years. the question, which government knows best -- it depends on the issue. a huge discussion about health care. how to be administered? many people, you are one of them, believe insurance companies to continue to be regulated at the state level. the problem has been insurance companies are able to meet -- take advantage of the patchwork of state government regulators, some that are more strong than others and are oftentimes able to come as a result, provide substandard health care protection. >> an unintended consequence has been -- the stripping of insurance companies using different states, particularly

southern companies moved to the north. >> but on the other side -- if you have a one size fits all concept, the united states is a series of regions where there are different sensibilities and needs, and so often times the federal government, honorable though it may be, is going to come in and talk about things that have no relevance to the local citizens. >> in a moment -- moment we will move to solutions. but we are sirius xm radio, the program is "white house chronicle" and we have john gizzi of "human events" and bob franken, syndicated columnist and broadcaster. the tea party, we got them. they are there. what impact will they have? >> they are going to be the foot soldiers for the republican party in the the 2010 elections. we have seen the wallop they

packed in a massachusetts special election where republican scott brown won the seat of ted kennedy. the illinois, there were four primary in which tea party- backed candidates defeated more establishment-oriented republicans and one of them, joe walsh, in suburban chicago, said i am a tea party candidate and they provided the votes on the ground the door to door -- going door-to-door. the muscle is being flexed and felt around the country. >> and yet there is a feeling when you go to the funding of the tea party, you find the don blankenships of this world. >> one example. >> the people who funded freedom works website who -- excuse me -- who have a stake in maintaining this allegorical status quo that many people believe that we have in this country and so what we have, rather than a foot soldiers for change, you have cannon fodder to keep things the way they are.

>> bob franken, i have to say, you say i picked out isolated examples -- the freedom works group has a figure in it, former congressman dick armey, a fine man, who is often put on as the face of the tea party movement. as a friend of yours, i would never want and a million years you to go to a tea party session in massachusetts or illinois and say that because they would all say they are different individual groups. >> would i be in danger? this is another problem. so many other events have turned into near riots. >> you can say that. i think that is an urban legend. >> dick armey is known to make extraordinary statements. i heard him making a statement that free enterprise was a peculiar american invention and it caused me to wonder what were they doing down in the silk road? why did all of the exploiters go around the world? >> first of all, bring

everybody up to date on who dick armey is. he was the number two man and many people believe was the intellectual father of the 1994 takeover by the republicans in congress. >> one of them, along with the new gingrich. been he was but newt gingrich's easily given the credit but dick armey was probably the one responsible for the 10 roles. what i'm trying to say is this is a man who is well known and well regarded as a crafty politician. he now is the one in charge of this website i was talking about that became, by all accounts, all accounts, the rallying fulcrum -- catalyst for the expanding tea party movement. that and fox news. >> with all due respect, bob -- and i have a lot of respect -- >> i love the practice -- >> you are wrong about the tea party movement. others may have characterized it that way but those who are in the individual tea party movements, again, going back to illinois and a congressional

primary i mentioned, the candidate, mr. walsh, said there are 12 different tea party groups, none of whom recognize a tea party central or national leader. it is unfair to pigeonhole them. >> we have seen popular movements before. all sorts of -- the large one but civil rights. the environmental is a popular movement. >> anti-tax movement. >> having a -- i did not say that. having an effect on politics. i was much involved in the 1960's with some of these things. of course, the anti-war movement and the women's movement. but they didn't actually calling and go to a particular party for a long time. take the women's movement. it has all the things tea party has not -- ragged at the edges, some people gave it a bad name, some people misunderstood its serious purpose, but they did not -- all the women in the

country did not go and vote democratic. popular movements tend to subside and go away but they leave behind something. what will the tea party pool -- movement leave behind, if i am right? >> the republican party that gets back to its pre-to about the roots of smaller government, lower taxes, and greater in, for the individual to make his or her own decisions. >> how can you make the government smaller? you have not answered the question. greater productivity for civil servants? closedown department of energy or education, for example, all that have been mentioned? or keep everything as it is and under funded everything so it is a rather incompetent government because it is under funded? >> everything, llewellyn, you talk about are things that could be dealt with and would be dealt

with if congress and the president were on the same page. there have been opportunities for it. but first and firmer host: -- >> we have a democratic congress and democratic president. we have had a republican and a republican. and we had what the french call -- cohabitatio. but we still don't get the savings. we can talk about smaller government but we don't get smaller government. the government grew under ronald reagan, it grew under george bush, the government grows because we keep making it grow because more problems, along that need solutions. >> again, i say that the value of the tea party movement -- first of all, if i may say so -- but with all the respect pretty dam -- with all due respect. most t partying -- tea partiers cannot now as they are there for

the republican party. it is something frequently denied. point two -- i think we would all agree that there is an offer -- awful lot to be really angry about what is going on in the united states. the question is what should we do about it and against whom should we directed the anchor? it seems to me that tea party leaders -- i would have to say, and all the respect, i would include you as somebody who really believes in the tea party -- had it all wrong. the very people we should be angry about are the ones who have gotten us into this economic mess because they have been able to sort of operate in a blaze a fair kind of way. the truth of the matter is we have to come up with some kind of way to make sure they conduct their business honestly and honorably. >> you have said, john -- then i am enjoying the two on one. >> that is oftentimes the default bunker position -- >> we are really going to pile on.

i want to know the answers. i don't see how you deal with this enormous deficit without some sort of surgery to the government, which has its defenders everywhere. republicans are a few defenders of the pentagon, for example. liberals are few defenders of social services. >> health and human services. >> and other things. and you have the deficit. and nobody wants to revise the tax code or come up with a new, creative tax. i happen to think the flat tax is not such a terrible deal. i also think the value added tax is not a bad idea. >> corporate tax -- 35%, highest than any industrial country -- were eliminated outright. >> i speak as a businessman. tax is not the problem that politicians tell industry that it is. it is simply allowed for.

the problem is having an of profit to pay tax. >> to make sure the alternative view is presented to get there are those that are given a book of the cases -- >> a communist? >> if for the sake of discussion, sure. >> what do you mean by transformation? >> now, that was a personal shot. i am sure it was delivered and all due respect. having dismissed what you just said -- >> very respectful at the tower of london -- >> what i was going to suggest is the alternative view when it comes to the value added and the flat tax is they are regressive. in fact, one of the things that is desirable about the american way of taxing -- used to be, before the ronald reagan changes, was that in fact the wealthy people, because they had benefited from society, to get the wealth that they had. that is not disappearing.

>> the argument made by bill gates, one of the richest in the world. >> the arguments against flat tax and value-added tax. arguments about corporate tax -- there are good are look -- are double size, but not as simple as saying we should have a flat tax or a value added tax. >> i think it started to look at a flat tax you would start to get rid of this labyrinth of contradictory taxation. >> but there is not an inevitability that the only way to replace the labyrinth is to have a flat tax, which some would argue, is unfair. perhaps what you do is you get red of all of the social policy statements made through taxes -- >> what would you do to reduce the size of governments, bob franken? >> first of all, i would probably look at the bureaucracy. second, look of the programs

that are there just to please some politically expedient constituency. third, i would take a really hard look at the defense establishment which is so riddled with flab. frankly, if he did just those things then we could turn to all of the social services that repetitious, redundant, etc., and suddenly we would be swimming in money. >> john, specifically what would you do? >> follow the example of the new governor of new jersey, chris christie, who froze the spending in his state at last year's level -- >> include spending on two foreign wars. >> yes. but what would happen if the troops were not getting the armored protection? >> excuse me -- and then began looking immediately at each program bit by bit on its utility and, as you say, are men in uniform -- office of management and budget and the united states and an executive who truly believes in smaller

government. again, we have the examples in the states that have been able to do it. new jersey certainly is one now. >> why do we never have a president who is able to do it in recent times? >> mike reagan, the son of president ronald reagan told me once -- what -- would my father not have given for a republican house? if he had the house elected in 1994 i do believe he would have done exactly that. in his own autobiography he said his biggest regret in prison and was he never got a handle on entitlements and cut spending. >> but i think it goes beyond that. i think that rather talk about only -- let us just take washington, for example. let us take congress, for example you have over 500 forces. that is, said, members from each has a individual constituency and each has its own preferred contributors and that type of

thing. it makes it extremely difficult to cut back on anything simply because somebody benefits from the existence of that program. so you end up with a government that is repetitious, redundant, which is flabby to an extreme and that is what i think is the problem. to just have an over all -- >> what do we think about productivity in this of all sorts -- civil service? we all live in washington and we know people who work for the government. abeyant work very hard. and others who don't do a hands turn. >> i don't think the bureaucracies are unique to government. i think in any corporation you find the same kind of flat, the same kind -- so, i think to just focus on the government i think mrs. that we don't really had anybody coming along who can really do a good, sustained job of containing the bureaucratic dynamic. >> oddly, al gore went quite a

long way reinventing government -- but in the and he was sort of swept away by circumstance. my earliest political hero, senator barry goldwater, urged two republican presidents to get a handle of civil service and change the law to make it easier to fire and root out people, as llewellyn said -- >> i just said, how do we get the productivity up? we have been very productive here. we are just about out of time. i hope you two will not offer each other violence when we get off the set. >> you can have my red tie. >> i hope the government services are available for john gizzi should the need him -- one of the pledges living in an advanced country instead of, for example, living in mogadishu. you can't see us and speak to us and write to us that whchronic

. .com cheers. >> "white house chronicle" is produced in collaboration with whut, howard university television. from washington, d.c., this has been "white house chronicle," a weekly analysis of the news with a sense of humor featuring llewellyn king, linda gasparello, and guests. this program can be seen on pbs stations and cable access channels. to view the program online, visit us at whchronicle.com.