escape them, you have to struggle with them and see where they lead you. andamless, of course, is a tragic case. oh cursed spite that i have e i was ever born. me says that. but that experience over the centuries has spoken to generations and generations of not just student bus to readers and audiences. >> rose: it really is the... i think the big question is to be able to find that thing that you... that is a perfect marriage or your dreams and competence and passion. >> rose: >> what a piece of work is a man he says. but for him it has fallen apart and the play, of course, is about someone who... of immense gifts who precisely cannot do what you've just describednd find the core of himself and find a way through but who wis

dead. >> rose: is part of the genius that shakespeare has allowed so many different equally brilliant interpretations? >> certainly this play it's not only that we havthe theatrical evidence that the play is done in a wild variety of ways with an extraordinary range of gifted and not-so-gifted actors but we sohave the peculiar fact that the play is way t long. so except for kenneth branagh who thought you could do the whole dam thin, most people and most performances on the screen d stage-- particularly on the stage-- have to finish. it gets dark in london. you have to figure out how to get through play and it's very long. and that suggests shakespeare wrote more than his company could possibly have used and

that means he expected his compy to decide what it wanted. to emphasize certain things. we know from the early editions that they were experimenting, cutting soliloquies, deciding to reduce the amount of inwardness, for example, of hamlet or playing with that full panoply of deep inwardness. so i think, in fact, this was part of his deep creative genius and his business plan, shall we say. >> rose: he was a good businessman. >> he was an extremely good businessman and he saw this the play... this was a huge success, hamlet. this is one of those wonderful cases in which ts isn't a thing that was originally greet with howls of execration or indifference. it was greated with rapture from the beginning and as has a huge theatrical life in shakespeare's own time and after that. so it was a play that immediately gripped people.

>> rose: have you changed in terms of which plays you loved the most or in with all the knowledge you have and investigation you have made. >> the plays are in many ways as elusive and wondeul and difficult for me now as they were when i was young sore it's not that it's somehow i've broken throw a kind of clear field in which everything is now defined and my sense of things have changed. probably in relation sfo i guess i'm much more sensitive to claudius and gertrude, to those parents now for all of their failings-- which are deep and

disturbing than i was when i was 20 when i was entirely focused on the prince and that's, i suppose, a predictable change that comes with age. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> thank you very much. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. legend jerry west. he spent his entire career with the l.a. lakers. he is out with a revealing new memoir. we're glad you have joined us. luther king boulevard. it's the cornerstone we all know. it's not just a street or boulevard, but a place where walmart stands together with your community to make every day better. >> nationwide insurance supports tavis smiley. with every question and every answer, nationwide insurance is proud to join tavis in working y and remove obstacles to economic empowerment one conversation at a time. nationwide is on your side.

@p tavis: i am pleased to have jerry west on this program. he went on to win a gold medal back in 1960. he is known as the eye contact -- iconic logo. an honor to have you on this program. let me start by -- i know there are things that you can say and

cannot say of all the work stoppage. i want to go back to your book. back to your life and your career to draw a parallel between what you would -- what you and george. these are your words, page 101. i remember the 1964 all-star game in boston. the first one ever televised. it had been snowing heavily all day. it was uncertain if everybody would make it by game time. there was another problem, too. the players have decided they would boycott the game, as all the team's owners came up with an acceptable pension plan. the players also wanted their own trainers to travel with the teams. no team should have to play a sunday afternoon game. i have never been more nervous or scared in my life. this was my livelihood.

he got around a security guard and shouting for the wall the -- shouting through the wall. he would make sure that we never played again. it was my fourth season and i was coming into my own. i did not know what to do. before we talk about the nba today, take me back to that game. >> when you are young and the thing he most aspire to be, to do something special in your life. to live my childhood day -- a dream as a professional athlete. those were days when i was just getting started. i was starting to learnacrn. . when an owner comes into your locker room and wants to talk, i thought it was pretty ironic -- i was never sure what i would say if someone would ever said, you will not play anymore.

i do recall it very vividly. the game was delayed for a long time. it was the first national televised nba all-star game. i do remember looking him in the eye, and say, i will never play again. it took a bunch of guys to start the ball rolling. and with all the rights that the players have. that was a watershed day for a lot of us. we did stand up to the owners. they did agree to it. that was the first step in making this league what it is today. >> it is fascinating to read that because it reminds us that the players association and the owners have always had these issues from time to time. there is not a whole lot that you can say, but what are your

thoughts about the situation that fans have to endure right now? >> in is to hope that both sides can find something acceptable. the players have really prospered. the league has had some losses. this is something that people do our lot smarter than me -- i am sure there will be a season. i think it is something that both parties have to feel comfortable with it. tavis: beyond the work stoppage, talk to me about how you think the fans are impacted when they are denied what they love so much. i was just reading a story of how does this morning. in some parts of the country, they are bracing for crime to go up. talk to me about the impact it has on the fans. >> fans will want to take sides.

that is part of it. i would hate to think that a game that has been so great to all of us would have a problem with not having the game around for a while. i would hate to think that someone would do something that was beyond reasonable in terms of committing crimes. that does not sound like -- tavis: i want to talk to you about your own basketball career. i was originally struck by the fact that this really is not a basketball book. the book is not about basketball. why write a book about your

life revealing all the stuff that you revealed? you could have taken the other route and wrote a book about basketball. >> it may be difficult for people to do. this -- look, i am not the only one was done this. i did not write this book for people to feel sorry for me. i just want to help other young kids that face the same problem. maybe to find a way to overcome things that are not acceptable. it is a very reflective period in my life. i am not a conventional person. i love people, i love what i did, competition was everything. i love the fans. when people come up and say hello to you i think that is a

compliment. i have written this book to talk about some of the demons i faced in my life, and i faced a lot of them. i still do today. they are not always comfortable to deal with or pleasant to talk about. i saw it as an accurate -- there are no lies in this book. i am way past that. i am in the years of my life for a think it helps to talk about problems and how to get through them. just tallinn port id is for one or two people to pay attention -- just how important it is for one or two people to pay attention. self-esteem, depression, a major factors in my life. tavis: you have raised the word

three times, competition. when i first moved out here with -- to los angeles, i lived with one of your heroes. jim brown put me up for a year before i got on my own feet. jim brown was the most competitive person i've ever met. in college, i spent some time with michael jordan. then i read your book, and you are competing with bill russell to see who can go to sleep the fastest. everything you do is competitive. >> i do not know where it comes from. the thing that you see when you are small, the stories that you tell yourself when you're growing up. those are the things that i did to myself. i did not want to go home. i was afraid to go home. i spent a lot of time by myself.

i loved the forest, i loved climbing. trying to find something that i could look at. those were fun things. going fishing, fish and all day from daylight to dark. then i picked up this basketball, which changed my life forever. i think of the imaginary games i have played in my mind. i have a very vivid imagination. in some ways, i was setting goals for myself. goals were the primary reason we get to where we want to get. i wanted to be something different than what i was seeing every day. i wanted to be someone that would always try to help give and to be nice to people. i did not grow up in a house like that at all.

tavis: tell the understand how a guy that had that kind of an imagination can end up wrestling with self awareness and battling depression. >> depression can happen to anyone. it is not something that is fun to deal with. when i grow up, i was an isolated child because of what i saw in my house. it is really about self-esteem. if you feel good about yourself, you'll be able to accomplish a lot more than you ever dreamed possible. when i was out there playing all these mind games all by myself, i would never not let myself make the basketball shot at the

end of the game. i was the coach, i was the official, i was a broadcaster. if people would have seen me out there, talking about all of these things that were going through my head, i just think that when i played, that is what i would not get depressed. when i would have an opportunity to sit around and think about things, little things, it would set me off. tavis: you talk about your tormented life. it is hard to talk about that without addressing how you navigated loss of your brother. >> this is probably one of the worst periods of our life. he was the beacon of our family. he was such a wonderful person. i would always have hoped that could be like him because everyone loved him.

he was deeply religious and growing up in a house like that, you can see the respect for certain kids. they do not mean to play favorites, but there is always someone who stands out. i remember the day he went into the army. i also remember the date we found out he was dead. it was the most terrific day of my life. -- horrific day of my life. in my mind, he will be 21 forever. to read those letters were he was talking about going to church and getting involved in church and always mentioning --

i think to this day, i just would have hoped that he would have an opportunity to see me play. it never happened. those were like hunting and tormented times. on a cold and -- haunting and tormented times. on a cold day in december and january when we buried him, one of the most horrible sounds i've ever heard in my life were taps. people always talk about folks. i was reading a newspaper this morning and i saw these two young kids from california who would gotten killed in afghanistan. for those families, it is devastating. it is absolutely devastating. in our family, at that house

changed forever. tavis: in the book, you talk about the fact that you could have run for governor of west virginia. when you lose your brother, i could see the emotion come over you. i see how that is still impacting you. did losing your brother change your view of war? you and i both know about this country is engaged in the long the store of this country. how has it impacted due politically? >> a lot of people came to meet and said, would you be interested in running for governor? it is not something -- i love

the state, i love the people, it is a big part of the why man. it was a wash in natural resources. a lot of multinational companies came in there. places where they could go, people to help them with their studies, pay attention to them. they paid the people and they left. i vote for who i think is the best candidate. people talk about raising tax dollars, i would be all for raising tax dollars. that is very important. i think wars are hell. one of the great books i read was on the korean war.

i will forever -- he was a great soldier, but for his arrogance to get thousands of young american men killed. i lost all respect for him. i went to the 60th anniversary of the korean war and was invited by a man from south korea. i went over there not knowing what to expect and not knowing what my emotions are going to be. i went to the place for my brother got killed. -- i went to the place where my brother got killed. to see what separates north korea and south korea. it is pretty stark. i was amazed at the city.

the love that they have for the americans. what democracy has done for that country is amazing. the cleanest city, the and the structure is beautiful. you cannot see a graffiti mark, you cannot see a piece of paper on the ground anywhere on the ground of a dare. if you look at the people in north korea, they are getting smaller. in south korea, they're getting bigger. there is a reason why, it is because of nutrition. it is a remarkable success story. to see what has happened over there. at the cost of millions of lives, by the way. 2.5 million south korean citizens were killed. i went into this war museum and a very prominent displayed are the people that were killed.

there was an american side. from each state, my brother's name was mentioned on that. when i looked through this museum, the thing that was so interesting to me was how many people that were killed there, innocent people who got killed. was it worth it? i would say -- a lot of people sacrificed their lives for what they think is better. i see afghanistan, iraq, i see all the unrest in the middle east. it is scary because we do not fight wars conventionally anymore. we are sitting in las vegas killing people in other countries. it almost looks like a video thing.

these people are fighting for something they believe in very strongly. for the americans families to lose loved ones, i know what it feels like. tavis: the flip side of the pain brought on by the loss of your brother, the one guy who you have felt unconditional love. tell me about willie. >> we were competitors in high school. there was one particular time when i was a high-school junior. i had an incredible year. because of my personality, i was so quiet and so shy, i never did

anything draw attention to myself. i was the only unanimous pick for the all conference team. these were my private thoughts. when the allstate team that came out and i saw two guys for this conference and i made honorable mention. it was probably one of the lowest days of my life. basketball gave me some self- esteem. all the sudden, it was taken away because people did not think i was good enough. that summer, i was a very good student in high school. i had an opportunity to go to states. i will never forget we were out

there playing and in the process of playing, i was the last one selected. after that, i was the first one selected. i walked away from their send to myself, i am better than these people. even though i would not admit it to anybody. i did not wait until my senior season started. i did a lot of things that were extraordinary for a young kid in high school. we won the state championship and this little community where the high school was it was my first brush with fame. that was pretty special. it really was. little did i know that my life would change because of this sport. given a chance to go all out to -- to almost any college. being recorded on the west

coast. -- being recruited on the west coast. i was only going to west virginia. it was the best decision i ever made in my life. west virginia means a lot to me and it is a charity of my choice, and always will be. tavis: chaldea contextualize your career? a lot has been said about you. how did you contextualize your career? >> it is something that i love to do. the late beloved announcer of the lakers -- i am not sure any of us were worthy of what he said. the way the city of los angeles has treated me has been remarkable. i am flattered that people feel so good about you. i see a lot