>> charlie: welcome to our progogram. tonight chris matthews talks about his new biography of jack kennedy called jack kennedy. elusive hero. also we'll talk some politics, 2011 version. >> so i went back and answered that question he always put what's he like. i went back to choke the classmates and the navy, what kind of company he was for the other officers. did he really prove himself a hero. i got to the fact he was his own man like a gatsby he created himself. he was not joe kennedy's son in any way. we conclude by expanding highsons with local politics

with lionel barber, he is the editor of the financial times. >> the problem is america has become a victim of these vast forces global ization and technology. middle class jobs have gone and 70% of american see themself as low paying jobs. there's anger and resentment and america is being more exposed in the global marketplace. >> chris matthews, lionel barber when we continue.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from o studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> charlie: chris matthews is here. he's the most of msnb hard ball

with chris matthews and has his weeky program called the chris matthews show. his latest project is a biography of president john f. kennedy. it is called jack kennedy, elusive hero. it's said of the book it's history at its best is about telling stories that bring the past to life. then chris matt yeups is a master storyteller forthis mass fating pour trust bringing jac kennedy to life more than any recent work. i'm glad to have cis matthews back at this table in fighting form. you should be pud. >> it takes years of work to get back here. it's worth it. >> keep writing books like this and you'll get a place at the table. everything about this is fascinating, including just the portrait. tell me when you look at this portra what do you think. >> i see a guy casual clothes on a beach probably in cape cod,

hyannis. walking off into what looks like white space. so where did he go and also where did he come from jackie once saido ted sorensen his speech writer. she called it an unforgettable elusive man. that's his wife. she found him elusive. >> charlie: also unforgettable. >>nforgettable. >> charlie: but elusive because? >> he lived his life in compartments and one of the compartment. she knew about the hard ball politics. she really was a student of jack's political in a way nobody knew. >> charlie: how long have you been want to go write this book. >> probably since 56 and after i wrote kennedy and nixon i wanted to get tight. there were inspirations. i was so lucky getting a loss of

source material but this sounds perhaps but remember that great movie with clint eastwood and somebody said why did you cover the president for that girl you took the blame for it like it was your girlfriend and not his. he said it was different back thin. he was different. that manly sense of a hero that there is this guy that other guys look up to that wonderful movie that army bernstein and kevin costner. saw that in berlin because the cube i been missile crises was really about berlin. if we took cuba they would grab berlin and the world would go. i wanted to talk about this hero and i wanted to talk about if i could find out if it was true, that what we knew about him iconically was true. i went back expanlsed that question he always put which was what's he like. i went back to choke the classmates and i went back to the navy what kind of company he was for the other officers.

did he really prove himself a hero. and i got to the fact he was his own man like a gatsby he created himself. he was not joe kennedy's son in any way. >> he created himself because he found heroes because he was sick and he had to read and by reading he read biography and by reading biography he understood the quality of heroism and he wanted to make himself into a hero. >> you said that. that's my book. jackie said to us after he was killed, that part got into the print. this poor sick boy all alone in his room whether in the infirmary or all those hospitals he spent his time growing up. jean kennedy smi told me his st surviving sibling that's what made him different from the rest roftkennedys. the kennedys were athletes and out dorsy. he was more deliberative reading about king arthur and churchill.

at the age of 14 he read churchill. he was reading the "new york times." lying in his bed and then analyzing trying to figure out which article he read. >> charlie: in fact y suggested he would go into politics even if his brother had not been killed. >> he went to school with a kid who read constantly about politics, talked nothing about politics, ran for student council and lost bu ke running. he ran in the navy. was planning to go in law oovment everything about him was planning a political career. of course he had to it with a his term. that he was dragooned going into politics wasn't true. he didn't have to turn directions. >> charlie: one thing that interested me too isnotion about his sense of wanting to understand biography and what makes people tick. because he famously said when asked what he would do after he left the presidency he said i might go into journalism because i'm fascinated by which is what

makes people tick a variation. >> what's he like. he said that's the reason people read books like this and iried to fure out what he was like. this is personal interest. i remember being a kid wanting to say i would like to spend time with this guy being in the room with him. what he was jack like in the room. i went back to these guys, charlie and charles 3wr5dly and ted sorensen. i said what was it like. they would give me fascinating anecdotal answers. my favorite was chris spaulding. they were both prep guys together before the war. one might on the phone before he got alzheimer's and i said to chuck okay please tell me what he was like. chuck was exasperated by these questis. he said my wife and i were at a very bad time together we were about to get a divorce but we were still together and we're going off one morning to sail and jack showed up. he looked at our two faces and said the agony and estacy. what that tells you is funny but cold. frighteningly cold because it

obviously would hurt her feelings and make him feel embarrassed because he's going off with someone else but he said that was him. that guy that would be so wry and light hearted he couldn't resist it. >> charlie: pt of what you say because he was sick and alone so often he coveted friendship from an early time. and he maintained those friends. >> joe kennedy senior said that len moved in with his old suitcase and never left. for a guy married ten years like jack was, there was this other person living there in the whitehouse. he had his own room. he was there all the time, len billings. jack needed friends around him. he didn't like being alone for jackie for long. he had a married but on tuesy i figured out he started inviting his pals for the weekend. he needed to have brley and his wife tony at the time for dinner. he liked charlie and his wife martha for dinner. he didt le having dish alone

with jackie or weekends alone. but they had a relationship. he wanted to share. he didn't like going to bed alone. i don't mean that frivolously. whene was alone at the whitehouse and jackie up at the indicated or florida or whatever. he had dave powers who had three kids and a wife waiting at home stay with him until 11:00 at night and put him to bed. he would do the actually ritual, jack would kneel down and say his prayers. he was almost tucked into bed. he didn't like being alone at all. jackie said the same story about this kneeling down in prayer. she didn't look up to himnd did it to cover because he was religious, she said he was superstitious. he would pray at the grave site of his lost son patrick many. going to the confession part as a catholic i find fascinating. nobody's watching, nobody knows he's going. but he wanted to have a secret service guy wait in line for

him. one theory he would get guys from new england who had the same accent so the priest wouldn't know who it was. one priest said mr. president one night during confession. he didn't like that. >> charlie: is that right. he knew who he was. >> why is he havi this extra curricular if you will life at the same time being so devotional to his religion. i tried this by anrch bishop, how can a guy be the way he was in terms of hi infidelity and be devoted to his religion. they looked at me like so what else is new. we hear these guys in confession all the time. i did suggest he might have been praying in the word of st. augustan, oh lord save me but not just yet. >> charlie: the reason he so much needed people around him was because he had been so alone. >> he made have had the record for the infirry. not only was he alone his mother according to a classmate never visited him for four years. she was a built cold to say the

least. >> charlie: went to mass every day. >> that's right. and he actually did that too but he would go weekends to downtown. i think this is trying to fight out but he liked fresh company. he liked people arriving for the weekend staying a day and then he wanted you to move o one of his friends said jack wouldn't like you around more than a day or two. here's a great sry 23 you're not jackie. it's the honeymoon and he gets bored and he goes to an nfl game or footbl and dumps jackie on anita fay to go shopping. now that's not the normal thing to do on a honeymoon. he just liked to keep moving on and liked company. he really liked people coming. like i compared like visitors in your hpital room. but you remember, when he was alone as a kid he wasn't just alone physically he was alone psychologilly. he thought he had leukemia. they kept checkinhis blood count.

i love it when the doctors say interesting case because it was his case and he thought he was the going to live long. imagine just being 15, 16 year old kid away at boarding school your parents aren't visiting and they keep calling you asking about the blood count. it's tough stuff for kid. i think he had a hard life as a kid. >> charlie: he live with his medical illness throughout his life, he said i wish i had more good days. this is one of the things i shattered in book. we envied him he had beautiful women, beautiful jack i'm his wife he had beautiful kids, he was president of the united states. he had so much fun we think and yet in his heart he felt that a lot of s life was pain. his body said he loved him dearly. there wasn't a day in hi life he didn't feel pain. that horrendous back thing during the war. he would cover it by saying that's a war injury or malaria. it was addison's disease. the last rites in 47, 51 and 5

46789 our church gives you that at the very last moment when you're about to go. >> charlie: i remember the time there was a story he grabbed one ofhe needles. well red face saiddoes that hurt. he showed him it hurt. if you were jack kennedy's friend he would prove it to you every day. you said a minute ago he kept his friends. that's what i really find admirable about him. these guys were pals with him and i think you and i are probably the same way. you like to keep some pals around from thold days before yo were knn by other people and strangers. you want to still have that foot on the ground that says no i'm still that guy. my buddies i hang around as a kid. he had people like that that he really hugged. i liked to see him as president of the united states. first weekend he has charlie bartlett they go to the executive office building and he gets up athe microphone and

charlie's at the back of the room and he plays president at a press conference with his old buddy. he calls up red face let's go to sptacus together. he's worried about aut health and getting awe analysis nated. he brought it up with his friends. look after me if this happens. looks in the shadow. he kept asking people how do you want to die. >> charlie: did he think of himself as a hero. >> after he saved the lives of his ten crew members. and you know when you face war all of the different parts come together. there's no hiding the different jacks, the intellectual jacks, the physical jack the lover of his wife, lover of other women, they're all the same person right there facing death. when he got in the water with pitch black 2:00 in the morning, he devoted -- and he had to swim

in high seas to find kathy mcmahon who was badly burned, 42 engineer convinced him not to give up. he says go on without me. pappy says go on i can't make it. he dragged him over his back, hurt back all the way back to the battle of the ship. the boat was still afloat. then he went out and got a guy named harris who wanted to quit too. he had a bag leg. harry said i'm giving up leave me alone skipper. he said no you're putting up a bad deposition out here for boston guy and he saved that guy's life. then he got the guys who couldn't swim to hold on to the same plank as the five guys that could he said you're swimming four miles together because i don't want any swimmers t drown. he pulled out mac man and took his knife -- it was almost like michael coloene, he was cutting the life jeact. put pappy on top of him and swam

for four hours into the pacific ocean to save the guy's life. that's what he did. i tell you word like that gets around, do you know what i mean. you're a hero because you're loyal to your troops. he got tmll home after the wore before he got home. that's why we call him a hero. >> charlie: tell me more about how you found material that has not been dis closed before. >> a lot of journalism as you know is going to the place. i've always said if you one the story, go there an our pals know this. howard finally related that. people have travel budgets. i went back in the back room with lorraine conolly head of p.r. at public relations at the choat school, i sat there with a have reserved archivist. she pulled out a binder. i said i want to found out ask not what your country can do for you. she opened something up and it says the young man the youth

should always ask him his alma mater not what can she do for me but what i can do for her in internal quotes. i said this is where the thing came from. teddy sorensen had been thinking it came from there. it was the best theory where it came from but he could never proof it because he never went up. all of the other stuff got hold of the tight sipt notes and the scribbled notes of teddy white after his interview with jackie the week after jack was killed which is an amazing fr hour interview. nobody evernew it was that long. they're all diagonal scribbled and i looked and found things like his mother never loved him. his mother never loved him. >> charlie: she said that. >> she said that about rose kennedy. she loved being the wife of the ambassador. she never loved him. she's trying to explain her husband. >> charlie: esive. >> she called him that. she said all men are a combination of bad and good. now teddy, teddy white as a favor to her transposed that to all men are a combination of

good and bad. big difference. there are interesting things. >> charlie: what about the knights of the roundtable and camelot and all of that. that's his sense. >> that's her sense of him. but also do you know what the great irony ain is, jackie was right. he lived at the center of the table and all the swords were pointed to him the irish mafia. the intellectuals like schlesinger and sorensen. then he had the society friends, david -- as pen would say those are the stud books. he kept them separate, do you know what i mean. one of the sources was jackie but jackie knew about the compartments. i interviewed jackie melon who was a good buddy. i said how did jace put up with this. >> charlie: she knew. >> 101 i think. sharpest knife in the drawer. >> charlie: what did she say. >> she was comparing jacqueline

kennedy to the rest of the family, these gray garden aunts, you know. it was bizar. she said she was too strange to be small. i thought that was a wonderful line. she s the going to be like some housewife upset about her husband's carrying on. she said a lot men came down the road who wanted jackie desperately wanted to marry her. she was interested in one guy, jack. that was the deal. >> charlie: once she met him th was hit. >> by the way, i came across a piece of footage just in the writing of this book which just blew me away. a young gorgeous young thin woman probably 30 something, jackie chasing after a gurney parked in the hospital as her love is being taken to the hospital. this woman as totally in love with her husband. >> charlie: you're so enamored of heroes, you. you like to write about them. you ke to understand them. you did this documentary about bill clinton president of the world. >> yes. >> charlie: where is that coming from in you?

>> well, i'm not sure i'm different than you, charlie but i'm not speculating too deeply here. but i'm no different than jack kennedy and i no jack kennedy but i tell you. >> crlie: no different in what way. >> in love of heroes. his were fictional. churchill. it was grew. so it grew from the fictional to the non-fiction to looking up to people. i just think it's the way our minds work. as kids we read about heroes. >> charlie: it's what you aspire to be too. >> yes. i think -- >> charlie to be heroic. >> i think standing alone. >> charlie: to be authentic. >> to stand-alone. >> charlie: to respect friendship and all that. >> yes. >> chaie: so you can make yourself into the kind of person that you admire. >> i think it's why you and i probably both love henry the v with all his flaw. s. he's the great warrior king because he won t battle and we know that he was horrible in many ways that he killed all the

prisoners. indefensible moral behavior but he saved the kingdom. >> charlie: at a starry moment he said remember this day. >> jack also loved that line and he used that a lot. he also loved raymond. >> charlie: tell me about that. >> there was a young british aristrocrat who was the son of the prime minister was killed at the battle of the som. kennedy described how he went to his death ised resolute matter of fact, debonaire. and kennedy loved that word, he used to quote it to jackie, debonaire. what an amaze description of someone dying. jackie when she talk board of director how he looked when he wasilled. this is t macab and he had that funny sort of mile that began i think i got the answer

now and i've got a great answer for yo she said that's what he looked like as he was shot. it's so strange to lk bit. i don't mean to be odd bit, macae but people would talk about that look of jack kennedy when he was growing up. that look of they would see it when he was a kid. he would analyze the "new york times." i've got it now. maybe he got it and figured out how it was going to end but he definitely said the morning of we're going into nut country today. my favorite storpolitically was here he is in the car, arey in the car with john conolly the governor, he w in the car with him driving to the airport in forth worth with jim write and he told me this story the local congressman. jack in typical fashion was being a first-rate political person. he was working on the state craft, trade craft of being a politician like he always was with tipp in those days. how come the italians vote this way and the lebanese both vote this way. he wanted to find out why dallas was so right wing voted 65% for

nixon. they were nice people blue collar. he said he gotten a great reception from the business community. what is the difference between these two cities. of course jim rite talks to the dawr press they drive these people and terrie ads in the paper. conolly was so shrewd. in fort worth people work side by side whether in a corral or factually floor. in dal else they work in high rise buildings and they wantto go on the next floor and they vote like their managers. who did that, conolly. he switched to a republican. that's why they're so right wing. he didn't explain it but it was a wonderful way to explain how kennedy was in the end. trying to figure it all out trying to figure out how he stayed in the whitehouse after the civil rights bill. he knew he needed texas and georgia.

he w going to lose a lot of the south because on the civil rights and he had to struggle and hold it and he wanted to be a great politician. >> charlie: how much of him understood. i'll tell you story you may know but maybe not. i did a conversation recently with arnold palmer the great golfer. jack kennedy wante arnold palmer because he admired him because he was a champion because he represented all that jack kennedy wanted to think of himself en in the pursuit of god. he sent arnold palmer e video tape ohis swing and said would you analyze that for me. >> that's jack. jack is a gatsby. he would study churchill, listen to the records he would be make the 78's. he would be barbing like a seal because it was the way to get his voice down. he was taking ef lynn wood, the speed reading courses. he was ting lessons from cbs

back in 1952 trying to learn how to perform on television. 52. he was aals trying to become a better jack kennedy. he was not some legacy some guy that was handed to him. he had to become jack. >> charlie: in terms of power, in termsf core competence, what was at the essence of it. >> i think i heard something. you probably remember from the funerals, the tough at the kennedy library for teddy when we lost him. the old man would say to kids you're not any smarter than anything elses. you have to work smarter. he wasn't brilliant like barack obama or somebody else in public life. he had an iq that was average, not a genius. he would have to work harder and he wa humble. he would surround himself with smart people and he had to work rder tn anythi else to keep up with them and he did. he surrounded himself with

selectorrer and george bumyun you mentioned. the more i became enamored with him the more i read about him. >> charlie: was there anything that didn't. >> the jackie relationship. i didn't quite get it because people told me i kept talking about what was he with jackie. he was enamored. she caught him in a way nobody else d he married her. i couldn't have married anyone else. whh was an odd thing to say. he loved her as a queen but he had this other thing. i don't quite get that other thing. part of it i think was he was on amphetamines a lot. and what was that concoction

doing to his drives. again it's probably one of those things he could. >> charlie: people sayhat when they listen to the tapes, you may say this, when you listen to the tapes, this is probably robert doweling when you listen to the tapes of cuban missile crises he was feisty and smart. >> that's something in the white house tapes i've been listening to many of them a clips of a world war ii junior officer conversation. all conversations with jack, there was no shooting the breeze. clipped. officer talking d the other men down the line. what do you hear. mr. president. this is how it stands. very clipped, very military in the way he talk to people. i guess it comes from the period of being in the service and being able to talk like that. >> charlie: his relationship with bobby? >> unbelievable. that's one of the things i was so blown away by in 1952, kennedy o'nnell said jack's going to lose this selection to

lodge because he doesn't hav the campaign. the old man's messing around. the old man's idea was to hire a come of hacks and kick them in the butt. had note lodge was a politician. war hero coming back and wanting to see it again. they looked up to him. and kennedy said no we need someone who can work the old man keeping the money into the campaign and him out of it. jack had a distant relationship th his father. he talked bobby into it. they had this big fight in the car. bobby gave up his career and the law down in washington and went up there and worked for his brother. what he did for him starting when he was a kid. where he won his brother's love was in japan in 1951 in that far east trip that jack didn't want to take. jack had an episode and it was like a 106 temperature. do you know who got him to the hospit, do you know who saved him? bobby. bobby became his protector.

he got over his piety. he would say make sure he come out privately. none of this stuff, i want to publicly for me. and bob is he said don't get me involved in it. and bobby would look back and bobby would say thanks jack. was sending him into the breach to do the tough work. they thought they might lose west virginia. that friday was the maryland primary. they thought if they lost virginia they would have fall back. and he said to do some rough stuff in the back room. am i going in here alone with bobby kennedy. the hard ball wasracticed by bobby in the interest of his brother and he was totally, i've never seen the more loyal brother than bobby.

he comes off so well in the book. >> charlie: this as i said is a terrific book and there are so many things you want to talk about here. we mentioned the note that jackie kennedy had. there was also this what you say and searching for jack kennedy i found the fighting prince never free from pain, never far from trouble never accepting the world he found never wanting to his father's son he was a far greater ro than he ever wished us to know. that from you. this book is called jack kennedy, elusive hero based on what jackie said and lots of people that you know have sai wonderful things about it and our congratulations. let me turn for a few moment to politics 2011 and 12. >> sure. >> charlie: what do you make of the republican race sonar and what do you make of romney and what do you make of what's happening to herman cain. >> it's a strange kind of musical chairs because we've had a period of one front runner against romney. romney's been constant around

25%. but there's the unromney which is trump up here in new york. and michelle bachmann who looks so weak now is right at the top. then perry looked very strong coming out of texas and now we've got cain. there always seems to be an anti-romney offering to the tea party. to me, i don't know what's going to happen to cain. looks like really bad for him right now with this harassment history. >> charl: what about it looks bad. >> it sounds like this story is going to grow. and he's gng to have to defend. he has to develop a response when all the information comes out. it looks like what we call disclosure now. the story keeps changi. there was no settle there was a settle. there was no charge there was a charge. his denial is getting narrower and the public doesn't like disclosure. now what he has going for him is the perception of these anti-establish many ansome of the he people in the right will say this is just the press going

after him. this is what i found interesting. republican party is very good at picking the alternatives. if you go back from 1952 when i start paying attention to 2004 you say three names nixon, bush, dole. the one exception 64. they couldn't make up their mind in the year they probably wouldn't win. henry cab other lodge wins the first one, write-inn new hampshire he was supposed to win in organize but rockefeller wins that one. they couldn't decide and never were happy. this was a year that accelerated through the year before because everything is decided in january and february. they can't seem to agree on who they wanted for president. they don't seem to like romney. three quarters of the electorate republican party says no to him which is really strange to call him a front runner. >> charlie: i don't know if it's that or they haven't made up their mind yet because

they're not narcotics and what you're seeing is the hard core right now. >> he doesn't have the animus that the hard core has that temperment of anger. [ that is missing. ifou don't seem to be cranking, where do you live. i would bet now it's a 50/50 bet on the general election and of course you have to go with romney. >> charlie: romney versus obama you have to go with romney. >> no. i think it's -- here's what i think is developed in the last week or two. i thought it would be a squeakr for the president, holding ohio and north carolina. i think it could be a squeaker for obama. but it's probably most something likely for the squeaker for the republicans. i don't see a republican thumping anymore. >> charlie: in the debate -- >> i don't see a candidate that

can win. they don't seem to have a hero. i don't think they will merge with one. >> charlie: if you were advising the candidates as you have done in your past, what would the native you would want him to speak to? or her? >> again, it's not about a celebrity. this president i think his one big weakness has been he left us on the mall on inaugural day and everybody went home bause everybody god involved emotionally on that campaign especially the center left. >> charlie: they were all there. >> tell us what to do. >> charlie: we're ready to march. >> we're so blind, collect rubber, collect old metal. >> charlie: you promised us you would change our country. >> you excused us and sent us home and said watch.

i see it around him the young people. and now they're trying to rebuild a campaign in a virtual way with e-mail. that's not the same. >> charlie: he may abdicate ladder shine. i'll tell you what i want after you tell me what you want. >> he should tell us what he wants. i know it's a risk but tell us where you will take the country if you had no opposition. you do that with reagan or kennedy. we don't know where he will take us. will he reform the entitlements. >> charlie: have you lost respect for him. >> in terms of getng it done. i was thrilled obviously notoriously thrilled by his campaign rhetoric because he talked about my country our country and that's what i was thrilled by. he seemed to get american exceptionalism. >> charlie: do you believe in american exceptionalism. >> i have to. u know kids with immigrants themselves are fully american. there's no way in the world you can come here >> charlie: do you know what i didn't know about you, your if you was republican.

>> my whole family was. >> charlie: this is "time" magazine. here you are. look at this picture. have you always had those haunting eyes. >> isn't that great. he did a great job. >> charlie: here's the obama on the right. five things anybody picture can show you. five things jfk could teach obama. i want to ask you what you meant by each. you've got to ask. what do you mean by that. >> mac valley is the great irony of life the more you do for someone the more loyal you are to them. saw you had something calledhe kennedy party. you're one of us. it's not about pork barrel

patronage, it's about left somebody join you and be part of it with the guys that's done the work, paul kirk, they always feel part of it. anybody whoorked for the kennedys have come away staying i'm not a white person i'm steel part of it. they are totally loyal because the kennedys bring you in, in a way obama push backed. >> charlie: when you say he they want to be asked. >> they want to be asked and serve. they want somebody to say please do this. with the wealthy he would have been much better off to say the wealthy of this city and elsewhere, do you know what we should do our share for this country. can do better than others. he's not going to get this tax bill passed anyway but the he would be saying let's unite instead of tshing the rich. because thatccident really in the end get you 51%. >> charlie: to create a political brand of brothers. >> charlie aren't you mystified at the lack of confederates this guy has. does anybody go and meet the press and face the nation and say this is a dam good president and we ought to start arneing that. there's nobody taking the punch

or given the punch. she was out there defending clinton on his worst days. always on television. why aren't they on for the president? they're democrats. why isn't harry reid are feeding the drum for the president. they can only defend their positions brown is every man for himself. >> charlie: they're not bringing -- >> i need you, get out there and fight for me. by the way why hasn't he done it. >> charlie: why not. >> he doesn't enjoy the company of politicians i guess. they get it. they haven't had a call since the last midterm and they know it. now this is problematic but when the stimulus package failed to produce an 8% reduced unemployment re he owes the cotry an explanation. lay down and say forve me but explain it. >> chaie: i bet he will say i tried to but i just failed. >> he has to explain why it didn't quite work because if they don't see you admitting

mistakes they don't see you learning and they won't reelect you. it's got to be better this time than next time. isn't that a logic trade. learn from your mistakes and be a better president. ken key did not have handled 69 cuban missile crises, he learned everything there. >> charlie: the next one is believe. >> i think you have to believe in america and believe in what it can do. look this pilot is working we'll be at the moon before the ruksz. it waslike the auto industry. look where is tu now. it's wonderful. we americans can manufacture, we can do it and we can come back. just start looking for the green shoots and sprouts and say look we can do it. i don't sense that amount total evidence of greatness and also the last one he has to tell us where he's taking us if he wants to go there. exactly. what's the second term going to be, more of this, you know, treading water. it's got to be something about the future.

something hopeful and positive. by the way he owes it to us to tell us where he's taking us. he might ll win if he does it. >> charlie: thank you for coming i. >> charlie this is why i work o hard, to get here. >> charlie: lionel barber is here editor for the financial tievmenthe began 25 years ago as a washington correspondent. he has brought the paperback to profit by successfully chargin for on-line content. he's also writn about what he calls thent of u.s. testimony in relation to the rise of china. i'm pleased to have him back at this table. welcome. it's right after they think they have some small answer to what's going to are happen to sovereign debt in europe? >> well, the chinese are on stand by so to speak. we wrote a big story last week, we talked to members polit

borough, condition on who is going to come in. a little size clause, please no more criticism about our exchange rate. >> charlie: so back to europe. what do you think of the deal that they struck? >> well, deal in a apostrophe's, i would say. what kind of deal. they use this word comprensive. the trouble is we've had these comprehensive deals trusted t over the last few months. the last thing in july. and interesting, the stock market went up but creditly the debtarkets looked on this unfavorably. and the latest indications is that there isn't a lot of confiden. why? the reason i think is that peoplere still very unconvinced that these countries th are heavily indebted not just greece but italy cann't grow their way out of the problem. the monetary union dominated by

germany just actually doesn' work unless you have some big far reaching changes fiscal. >> charlie: will that happen. >> i don't see anything as big as that in the near future. interestingly, you know the critical figure is not this almost this mythical beast, the italians say, are the combination. she is in the driving seat. and her approach is very increment. she esn't want a big bang approach to european integration. she says this slowly steadily moving a pace with changes. the problem is the markets are moving faster. >> charlie: if they want to learn from the german experience, what would we learn in terms of the health of their economy? >> everybody said that germany ten years ago was the sick man of euro. it's not. actually you have to sayhat they do not what what they say. they have to introduce

flexibility in t labor market. they've been unbelievable tough on their wage negotiations so wages have been kept low and productivity has soared. this is a message to us poor brits they care about their manufacturing base and they have done extraordinary well in exporting high value cars, etcetera. >> charlie: that's really the key to it. how does the united states, how do britain, how do other people learn what they did to build a manufacturing base that could export things to other countries including china. >> now i think what we're looking at now is lessons from germany. germany crucially done layoff skilled labor after the crash. they kept on workers, they reduced the, they went to part time working. people laughed at them. they said this is not a flexible load. in fact, itçó was a very sensibe move. i think i say wedge discipline

has been important and exploitation over a long period of time a growth market who have been in china, be in brazil and therefore benefiting from the change -- like to be the world's largest manufacturer of cars by the end of this year overtaking by toyota. >> charlie: by selling to the chinese market. >> exactly. >> charlie: is germany the second largest exporting company in the world and china being first. >> yes. >> charlie: it's amazing. >> yes. else very imperez i. >> charlie: how is merkel doing politically. >> not so good but not as bad as her partners. i think she's well regarded. she's coming under a lot of pressure for bailing out the greeks as they put it. there's a lot of sort, i don't

want to exaggerate this but why are we doing this. she played a european card and crucially almost talking like helmut coal saying we need to do this, we don't want to go backwards to a europef conflict. i would say strong but not so strong as 18 months ago. >> charlie: not bad for a scientist who grew up in east germany. >> it was an extraoinary story not bad for a scientist a protege of herman kohl. >> charlie: there are me pulling saying david cameron has slipped. how has he slipped. >> mr. cameron have done very well in many respects. if there's a coalition a hung parliament the market would crash. actually it didn't. britain is paying less interest

its debt than france. it's extraordinary that we have a budget deficit at 12% etcetera. that's a clear consistent economic policy. i think that's his strongest suit. where he slipped up recently is over that old terrible chocolate for the conservatives europe. they are still divided over europe. cameron doesn't want that debate. >> charlie: what does he want to do. >> he doesn't want to be part of the euro in economic terms that doesn't matter. >> charlie: right. >> but he also wants to be, he wants to be in so he is into negotiations but he wants to renegotiate some aspects like labor market policy, etcetera. so sort of to semi out. and the british, there's this real cabinet minister said to me the other day, we are in britain, we're leader of outs and we think that does not sound

very good. and a lot of outs countries likes sweden, countries like poland, hungry. the risk for mr. cameron is europe under leadership is going into integrate more tightly and europe will be left on the side line. >> charlie: the republican is trying through a series of debates and otherhings choose a candidate. how does it look from where you now reside. >> i covered 88 and the campaign and the 92 campaign. i think from afar i did come back obviously. people are a little bit surprised that there isn't a clear republican obvious top candidate. people surprised that mr. romney, mitt romney has lots and lots of money that he hasment broken clear from the pack. >> charlie: he's about 23 or 24% of the poll and has been there for a while.

>> the multimillion hair herman cain but he's appearing to b second or whatever doing quite well. >> charlie: leading iowa. >> leading in iowa and people were interested, another texan was making another showing. how many trouble is obama in. does he have to struggle to be re-elected. >> charlie: is he more popular in great britain than the united states where the numbers are right around 40%. >> i think he's pretty popular in britain but not as popular as 2008 when he was a sensation, a new phenomena, new leadership an incredible achievement being the first african american president. he's had a lot of exposure. people sort of got a little bit fed up including i know people in germany this notion that the president walked on water.

but i suppose just a lot of exposure and a lot of feeling. this is something which as a political student of america i find myself trying to explain why is it that iteems the president was going to take over getting decisions made in washington. what is the problem. >> charlie: why is there a dysfunction. >> dysfunction, paralysis in government. and this is because there are obviously very deep ideological wisdom. some questions about does he like split the split the difference too much. >> charlie: bold and aggressive saying this is what i stand for, this is what i believe in, this is what i want to do. that brings the question the tea party and there has risen in america exparnld the world something called occupy wall street. doubt that has some kinds of legs in terms of a national or international rise of protest against the establish order? >> well i don'think this is 1968. >> chaie: in france. >> in france or indeed in the

states. but i think something's happening out there, charlie. i really do. this is already international. i mean you're seeing it in tokyo and london, you're seeing it in theain square in madrid. there are people who feel that the politicians have not responded effectively to the financial crises. they have not tamedhe excesses of deregulated capitalism. >> charlie: and might not have been what they suggested r the waive the economic system has come is not fair. >> yes. is it skewed in favor of a few. >> america from generation to generation would pass on an america that was better for them the next generation children would do better than their parents for the most part. there's some question about core idea today. do you see that questioning of erica having st its way for whatever reason from where you

sift? >> undoubtedly. i could still remember coming in 1976 my first trip being a camp counselor and st being inspired by the country where people really felt you could do everything if you really wanted to do and the since of ever increasing, people doing better the next generation. the problem is tt america has become a victim of these vast forces globalization and also technology which is removed, whole sways of jobs are gone. most americans see themselves as middle class and they're hurting. they've had to take lower paid jobs there's a lot of anger and resentment. america's being more exposed in the global marketplace. and i see, if you put that alongside political paralysis in the last few years, then you can see why people are frustrated. i still this think country is capable of turning it around.

i think it's freer and more inspiring but it's going through a very difficult task. >> charlie: if you're sitting there with a team of talented reporters to go out and pursue big stories not just what's happening today in terms of the international politics. what are you, what are the great stories that you are in pursuit of to understand and communicate to your readers? >> i wanted to find stories which are counterintuitive. yes there is a lot o gloom a but then fine the places -- >> charlie: where the system is working. >> exactly. if youo to california still one haso stay there's an extraordinary story there. there are some great companies in the mid west. where people are doing important things. laboratories for policchange. people should look atlaces like south carolina and the way it's brought in foreign investment. >> charlie: the nature of the work force there. it had to do with the nature of

e right to work laws and had to do with the nature of what they could offer in terms of inducement to these foreign companies to come there. >> that's true but they've still got very skilled work forces there creating jobs. >> charlie: it's like beg all those manufacturing companies. >> those stories we need to find some positiveness. this isn't about feel good journalism, this is part of the whole tapestry. we don't need to just focus -- >> charlie: what could go wrong in china? >> the fact that as increased, living standards improve, people will want more freedom. and how the chinese -- >> charlie: and more wages. >> and wages are increasing. that can gorong. i also think they've got an extraordinary historic challenge of trying to change the chinese economic model from invement-led building to more

consumer demand. >> charlie: going from an export driven economy to a domestic demand. >> yes, exactly. th is very difcult. and also they're going to have to internationalize the currency, the financial system's going to ve to open up. this also requires extraordinary balance which is why the chinese keep telling you when you press them on this well, we are a developing country, poor country and don't press us too hard. >> charlie: and you in the industrialized world suld not ho us to the standards because you've been there much longer tan wehave so therefore we should have some luxury in a different way than you have held yourself. >> they say it with such firm challenge. >> charlie: thank you for coming. >> it's a great pleasure, charlie.