tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. a conversation with the noted political writer and former wall street journal journalist, thomas frank. he is out with a new text called "pity the billionaire". don cheadle is here. he produces and stars in a new series. it is called "house of lies". he is directing a new movie about the life of miles davis. >> every community has a martin luther king boulevard. it's the cornerstone we all know. it's not just a street or boulevard, but a place where walmart stands together with your community to make every day better.

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. tavis: thomas frank is a noted columnist and author. his latest is called "pity the billionaire", he joins us tonight from washington. good to have you on the program. >> it is my pleasure. tavis: let me start by asking whether or not there is anything that happened since this book came out. the challenges -- that

challenges your basic thesis. i asked for the obvious reason. this political season is changing like the speed of light, the speed of sound. let me ask if anything in your thesis has changed since the book came out. >> not -- the thing is is it is a look back at the last three years. the last three years are not changing. you're right. the world around us is changing like crazy. what -- the way i think about it, what "pity the billionaire" is about is about hard times conservatism. the way that the conservative movement refashion itself as a protest movement for hard times. the economy looks like it is recovering. what happens? rick santorum, the culture wars candidate is the front runner or close to it in the republican primary. we're talking about, what is the

matter with kansas again? it looks like the culture wars again. as a description of the last three years, "pity the billionaire" pretty much nails it. tavis: what does this moment say about the struggle the gop is having to define itself again? another way of asking, given what is happening now, what is your sense of what the next three years will look like through the gop trying to identify itself, discover who it is, or an ounce to was who they want to be? >> they did -- the gop did an unusual thing in 2008 and 2009. the george bush presidency was widely regarded as a failure. should bush was on popular. -- george bush was not popular. you have the collapse of wall street and the bailout of wall street. this was extremely unpopular. the pundits in washington across

the board were saying the republican party had to become modern. it had to put the conservative days of george bush behind it and they did the opposite. they took a hard turn to the right. george bush was not conservative enough for them. the real answer was to reach out for this kind of free market utopia. that is with the tea party movement was about. here is the strange thing. that strategy worked for them. fantastic, sweeping victory. what has happened is they have learned a lesson. i do not think it is a good lesson. they have learned always moving to the extremes is the way to win. and they seem to be able to criticize one another from a perspective of conservative authenticity. you look at romney and santorum

fighting against the other. they accuse each other of being a fake conservative. that is the form of criticism that is permissible in the party now. tavis: go back to the midterm elections of 2010 where the president by his on a mission took a shellacking. it said to the tea party may have won the battle but i am not convinced in the long run they will win the war because i do not think this is sustainable, you would say what? >> their plan, their strategy is not healthy for the country. i do not know -- if they have done enough structural change or structural damage. if it is possible to come back, for people like me, i am the last remaining new dealer. i do not know if it is possible for people like me to come back after a couple more victories like that one. tavis: to your point that you are the last new dealer. what do you make in retrospect

of all the magazine covers and the stories written and all the columnists who were so shall we say liberal part of the time with their comparison of obama and fdr? >> that was a mistake. obama came into office, it looked like he had the winds of history behind him. he had the popular adulation trade you remember the crowds when he was inaugurated. we have never seen anything like that. it looked like franklin roosevelt in 1933. it looked like the man who had the answers. unfortunately, rather than understanding where we were economically, barack obama came to washington in the classic d.c. democratic coalition that the real problem in this country was partisanship and he was

going to overcome that in some grand, statesmanlike way and bring the parties together in a grand bargain. what i think one of the many things he missed and i say this as someone who was sympathetic to him and i think he can still recover and be one of our great presidents. he does not understand that argument is normal. people disagreeing with one another is normal. as long as we can keep it within bounds. it is not something you are ever going to overcome. >> which way is the pendulum swinging for the gop right now? the subtitle of your text is this an unlikely comeback of the right. i am not sure if i know that -- which with the pendulum is swinging. >> are they still on a roll? >> the way they are slamming each other it is hard to see how anyone comes through that and still is strong enough to challenge president obama after they are done hammering each

other like that. on the other hand, the fact that you need so much money to run for president al and we're talking newt gingrich or whoever is going to their own pet billionaire and giving the billionaire -- getting the billionaire to write a check. the fact you have to have a pet billionaire changes the equation. in some ways it does not matter if you have a republican or democrat. of course, it matters. it is not completely indifferent. the power of money put certain choices off the table for us as a society. the kind of things that franklin roosevelt did are not even available to us any more. tavis: to the point you made. how much is this superpac decision, the opening of the flood gates with the citizens united decision. of those whorin

thought the president would stand firm. i am still a long way by the image that i recall him chastising the supreme court one year ago while they sat in the front row at his state of the union speech. he does a 180. he will do the same thing the republicans are doing. everybody has their own pet billionaire or a super pac to which they could send their pet billionaires'. how much muddier will this make the water? >> scarlotta -- a lot muddier. there was a cover story that nailed it. the coming tsunami of slime. i read a "business week" story that bothered me about the campaign manager going to new york city to meet with a bunch of wall street types to incur some to give money to the president's super pac. according to the story, he

promised that even though the president was going to be a populist, he would not attack wall street by name. he would leave that off the table. attacking wall street, this is what like i said, i am the last new dealer. franklin roosevelt, harry truman, john f. kennedy, this is what the democratic party used to be like. there were highly critical of wall street's leadership of the economy. president obama is willing to put that off the table in order to raise money from these guys. it is like i say. certain reaches of politics are becoming off-limits to us. tavis: speaking of off-limits. mitt romney has suggested if he is the nominee, who knows at this point? he has been advancing as often has he can the notion of the politics of envy which ties into york book title, "pity the billionaire".

can that kind of strategy or can that kind of strategerie as george bush would say engage politics in america? >> it seems a natural thing for him to say. he is a quarter of a billionaire himself. he is one quarter of the way there. it also seems -- i think about it all the time. it seems so unlikely that in present circumstances where people are so angry at wall street and angry about the bailouts and the way the press session unfolded, they would turn to a man like that who earned, made his living as a venture capitalist doing aias. it seems impossible. you look back at the last three years. you look at this tea party movement and that was the idea. the great sort of tycoons and capitalists and millionaires, they were the real producers of society.

the rest of us were these parasites. john boehner a couple of months ago said that the slump we're in, the economic slump we're in is the result of job creators of america had gone on strike because they were so sick of being bad mouthed by politicians and having politicians regulate them and make them pay taxes. they are so severe they had gone on strike. that is why we were having a recession so we want to get outta the recession. we have to be nice to those people. we have to "pity the billionaire", we have to stop regulating them. tavis: that is the name of the new text, "pity the billionaire" by thomas frank. thanks for the text and good to have you on the program. >> my pleasure. next, don cheadle with a new show on showtime, "house of lies". stay with us.

always pleased to welcome don cheadle. he stars in and produces a new series for showtime, "house of lies", exploring the world of management consulting firms and airs sunday night at 10. now a scene from "house of lies". >> james, my brother. >> we know each other. >> from the meetings. >> black people meetings. [laughter] >> i did not realize that was an actual joke. >> i am a huge fan. >> i did not know consultants had fans. >> marty dess. -- does. >> that was nothing short of revolutionary. >> he is a rebel. >> i will press some flesh.

excuse me. >> yeah, boy. >> no, ma'am. tavis: are we having fun yet? >> i am having a ball. tavis: when i turned this on for the first time, i was docked -- shocked that don cheadle was playing this character. should i have been? >> you would see a lot of things that are all over the map if you'll get my resume. it has always been about finding material that i think is creative and interesting and fun and something that can expand me and i can hopefully do something with. it is shooting right down the street from my house. tavis: that is the real answer right there. you can walk to work every day. avoid l.a. traffic. and see your kids at night. what was it about this character that appealed to you?

>> it was not written for a black man. wasas a character that dimensional. do you know what i mean? and flawed. so often when black men have to play roles on tv, where the noble savage or we are completely a savage. there is no nuance. this character has got a domestic relationship with an ex-wife and the has got this son who may or may not be gay. he is a cross dresser, we do not know and he is confused. that is a psychiatrist, union analyst. he works with these idiots at his job or clowns. he has so much stuff i felt like we could go everywhere with it. for me it was a no-brainer. tavis: to your point, i am glad you went there. it makes it easy for me. what is the challenge or conversely, what is it playing a character that you know was not

written for a negro? not written for brother? you are doing it so well and doing it with style. what is the challenge, the fun of doing a character that was not written for a black man? >> that there are these rhythms in it they can play with that are not sort of i guess premeditated. very often when people are writing and they're not black people for the most part, they do not write just for themselves. zevely their people and -- suddenly they are people and we are something else. you write for yourself. you write your cultural identification. the family stuff does not change. wyclef families. we'll have relationships. -- we all have families. we all have relationships. that is no different. but the actor be part of the process and let them bring in their own stuff to it. we're lucky because we had a

diverse room. there are black writers and women on the show. we have a writer who is gay. we are covering a lot of bases for people to put input. there are actors who bring their own thing to as well. it was not a challenge playing this part. it was a thrill to go in and look at all the different stuff to mess with. tavis: was there anything about the character that gave you pause? this is some racy stuff. it is funny and it makes you think. it is all that and then some but it is crazy. >> it does give me pause. my parents are still alive and they have been told they cannot watch the show. i watch it like that. i had to call kansas city, missouri. you're probably not going to

watch it. i do not know if you want to watch. you cannot watch it. it gave me pause, to and not just the reecy element. the stuff that marty does, it is challenging. he is not a good guy. he is not concerned about being pc, he is offensive, he is brash. a lot of things that people might take exception to. you can tell he is a father who is trying. he is trying to be there for his son and support his son and take care of him. he is good at his job. whether you think his job is nefarious or not is up to you. he is good at it. i think he is in the margins a lot. there's a lot of gray area. of course when you are taking on something like that, you go i hope the audience not like him but i hope there respond to him. i do not know that we like tony

soprano. i was fascinated by him. i hope you get that kind of interest at least. tavis: what kind of mail are you getting from management consulting firms? i do not know how true this is. i was looked at firms with a strained right. -- always looked at firms with a strange eye. i don't care if you are good or not. consulting is a nebulous term. what kind of response do you get from these consulting firms? >> we get just like my life. nothing like that and everything in between. we understand it is a comedy. it is a showtime comedy so we're pushing everything, pushing all the boundaries. a lot of the stories we're taking off on are things that

consultants brought in and pushed to us and told us, they do play hook up. they play games for points. dacey who they can get and they keep a tally. -- and they see who they can get and they keep a tally. their home two days a week. when their home they do not know what to do with themselves. a lot of them are frustrated and cannot keep relationships going because they are never there. the road becomes the place where all this stuff happens and these people become your defect a family -- defacto family. tavis: how am i supposed to read this animal magnetism that marty has? is it marty or don cheadle? everyone wants to sleep with you. every race and color. someone is trying to get you in bed. you are doing our best to oblige

them. -- your best to oblige them. >> i am a people person. tavis: hi, i suppose to read that part of the character? -- how am i supposed to read that part of the character? >> it gives a lot of complications. as we see the shows, the latter episodes, that will get him into some problems. but i think it is intoxicating when someone is so unapologetically who they are. it is not someone you will put down stakes with. i will see what is up with you. you talk a good game. i think that is what is. it lends itself to places the stories are going to go. his sexual appetite, his appetite for the job, his desire to win at all costs.

it all fits in with his, i get it. that is what i do. tavis: i thought about this watching a few episodes. does marty to you, does he say anything to you about our culture, about the decay of our civilization, the de-evolution of our culture? >> absolutely. i am glad in a way it will come down in subsequent episodes and uyou see the cracks. it is greek in a way. it is a pyrrhic victory. there is a relation -- a price to pay. that win at all costs and take no prisoners attitude, there is the fallout. and we're going to see that followed and as the series goes on we will continue to play with

what the price is of winning. what does it mean if you have won the world but you have lost your soul? >> the roll was not written for a black man. -- role was not written for a black man. that relationship for your son, for a black man that is tough to be in. >> we talked about how do we play that and what is it supposed to be? i think you have seen some of the episodes. he comes to me and said, what you do if you like a boy and a girl at school? man, i don't know. i don't know! i don't know. do not doell you, that. i hear your but it is tough for me. we try to play their very real. whatever you are as fine and it is important. he is not say, do not come to me with that gay -- i do not want

to hear that. tavis: i love it in terms of the father. great acting. >> it is good to have someone, glenn asked a the question. they asked a question about diversity. some of the questions about black people and these roles are not defined. he said this is not -- this is the most revolutionary thing, just to have don cheadle bling this part, period -- playing this part, period. in a predominantly white world with a white business. without having to deal with that. the fact that i am the lead in a show on cable. how many black leaders are there in television today? it is less than a handful. kudos to showtime and david

nevins for taking it up. tavis: sunday nights at 8:00 p.m. on showtime. any night on showtime. that is the beauty of these premium cable networks. if you are fortunate not to have them or have you. these things air all day. you can catch them any time. >> we county -- count the dvr's. that counts too. tavis: "house of lies" on showtime. that is our show for tonight. until next time, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org.

tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with comedy legend and best-selling author steve martin on his next book. that is next time. we will see you then. >> every community has a martin luther king boulevard. it's the cornerstone we all know. it's not just a street or boulevard, but a place where walmart stands together with your community to make every day better. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more.