also, why kashmir remains such a volatile flashpoint between india and pakistan. and the enduring messages of freedom in african-american spirituals. welcome. i'm bob abernethy.

it's good to have you with us. a study released this week says mormons are the fastest growing religious group in the united states, followed by muslims. the religious congregations and membership study -- done every ten years -- is based on self-reported figures from u.s. congregations and religious bodies. the church of jesus christ of latter day saints, the mormons, reported adding 2 million regularly attending members in the u.s. since the year 2000, bringing their total to a little over 6 million. muslims reported 2.6 million, an increase of about 1 million over the last decade. mainline protestant denominations, meanwhile, lost about 13% of their members. and catholic membership declined by 5%. nevertheless, catholics remain the largest faith group in america at 59 million. leaders of the united methodist church have voted

against changing language in their church doctrine that calls homosexuality incompatible with christian teaching. meeting at their general conference, held every four years, church delegates from around the world also defeated an amendment that said united methodists could disagree over homosexuality and still live together as a church. the vatican this week tightened its control over the umbrella group that represents many catholic charities around the world. caritas international has 164 members, including in the u.s., catholic charities and catholic relief services. under the new rules, a vatican office must approve the group's contracts with other nonprofits and foreign governments. top caritas officials must also take a loyalty oath to uphold the catholic faith. the changes come two weeks after the vatican cracked down on the largest group of catholic nuns in the united states.

a new report from the pew research center shows very little support for al qaeda in the muslim countries it surveyed. according to the center's global attitudes project, significant majorities in egypt, jordon, pakistan, turkey and lebanon all report a negative view of al qaeda. egypt had the greatest minority of those favoring al qaeda -- 21%. in pakistan, the u.s. government's use of armed drones to target militants continues to strain relations between the countries. in the past, the administration has avoided talking about its drone program, but on monday, a top white house official strongly defended use of the controversial technology. at the woodrow wilson center in washington, john brennan, assistant to the president for homeland security and counterterrorism, called weaponized drones both legal and ethical and said their use is

consistent with the country's right to defend itself. >> there is nothing in international law that bans the use of remotely piloted aircraft for this purpose or that prohibits us from using lethal force against our enemies outside of an active battlefield. >> for more on this, kim lawton is here. she is managing editor of this program. we are joined by stephen l. carter, a professor at yale law school and author of "the violence of peace: america's wars in the age of obama." he joins us from new haven. professor carter, welcome to you. >> thank you. >> john brennan said that the use of drones is legal, perfectly legal, you agree with that? >> i think the administration is right. we're a nation at war and in time of war a belligerent certainly has the right to target the leaders of the other side who are in the chain of command and that's what we are doing. >> but if the battlefield in essence here has become the entire globe, how does that

change the moral calculus of when and how the u.s. uses force justly? >> well, i think you're right that the more important questions are the ethical ones and one of the ethical questions is how big the battlefield is because the administration claims the right to target leaders wherever they may show up in the world. a second moral problem that arises is the problem of civilian casualties. even if we have the right to go after leaders of al qaeda we have to do it, both as a matter of law and as a matter of ethics, in a way that minimizes civilian casualties. the administration doesn't actually count civilian casualties so we don't know how many there have really been. mr. brennan says that there have been times that they haven't actually taken the shot because civilians have been in the line of fire and if so, i'm glad to hear that but i still think that we'd be better off if we could have a conversation in which we could talk more about the civilians who are killed. and there's another ethical problem that we don't spend enough time thinking about and that's the way that the drone war goes away from the front pages, it's not on the evening

news. in iraq, we're on the evening news. in afghanistan, it's on the evening news. with the drone war, it's done in secret, it's clandestine, it's hard to keep track. and we really should know what's being done in our name. >> what kind of moral oversight would you like to see taking place surrounding this? >> at minimum, we, members of the public, ought to demand as much disclosure as possible from both our government and also, that the media cover the drone wars as closely as we cover other wars. there's no greater and more difficult moral decision a nation makes than killing other people and it's quite important if we are going to do that, that it remain in the forefront of our consciousness, that we not be distracted by other issues. >> how do we know how many civilian casualties there are? isn't that a big danger, that this, that the use of drones will spill over and there will be a lot of civilian casualties? >> because the administration doesn't tell us when there are civilian casualties, or how many, it's very difficult to keep track.

we tend to rely on sources on the ground, some of whom have their own agendas and want to exaggerate it for one reason or another. but if we don't know how many civilians are dying, we really can't give a good assessment of the ethical principles that are underlying these attacks. >> professor, just very quickly, why now? why did the administration come out with this now? >> there have been a lot of voices, including my own, that have been urging an open discussion of this. because the administration has not acknowledged in the past that this drone program even exists, it's hard to have public conversation about it. now we can have an ethical conversation about it and it's high time that we do so. >> many thanks to kim lawton of "religion & ethics newsweekly" and to stephen carter of yale university law school. we will continue this conversation on our website.

last month in kashmir there was an avalanche that killed 140 pakistani soldiers. they were stationed there because of the long, unending feud between india and pakistan over control of kashmir. natural disasters, wars, competition for water, suspicion -- fred de sam lazaro has a special report on why kashmir remains such a dangerous flash point. it turns out it's not primarily a religious conflict. >> reporter: kashmir has long been known for its peaceful vistas, but for the 13 million inhabitants this mountainous region has been anything but peaceful. it is one of the world's most militarized places. india alone has an estimated 600,000 troops in the part it controls, four times the number of american soldiers who were in iraq at the height of that war. although it has a two-thirds muslim majority, kashmir as a

whole is quite diverse, the utdu the northeast buddhist. but for six decades this provinceitndh las a as mthe as size of idaho has been bittey fought over by india and pakistan. it all dates back to 1947, wn the departing british decided to partition the newly indepeent india. muslim majority areas we to form the new republic of pakistan. but kashmir had a hindu ruler and he opted under pressure to join india. that set off the first of three major wars between india and pakistan, ending in a ceasefire with india controlling about two-thirds of kashmir, pakistan most of the rest. the so-called "line of control" that divided kashmir has served as an international border for 65 years, but kashmir has festered as a sore point between the islamic republic of pakistan and mostly hindu india.

although the conflict has long been cast in religious terms, joseph schwartzberg, a leading scholar on kashmir, says it's more complicated than that. and within kashmir, he says, there's a long tradition of tolerance. >> the hindus frequently attended religious ceremonies that were held by muslims, and the converse was also true. in terms of actual day-to-day religious practices, it's a fairly eclectic area, and the type of strident militaristic islam that we think of when we think of, say, the middle east -- that was not present in kashmir at all. >> reporter: that began to change in the 1980s in indian-held kashmir with more religious tension and extremism. schwartzberg blames corruption, nonfunctioning local government and meddling from india's capital delhi in local elections. >> india is a pretty good functioning democracy in most parts of the country, but with respect to kashmir it was exceptional.

they felt that they couldn't afford to lose elections. they managed to rig election after election, and the people simply got fed up. in 1987, and it was a pretty corrupt administration so the people just had it, they initiated a series of demonstrations that were put down with a heavy hand, and in 1989 it really got out of hand, and the indian government moved in in force. >> reporter: the clampdown triggered a militant separatist insurgency, or vice versa, depending on who is telling the story. india has blamed pakistan, especially its intelligence service, and islamist extremist groups. pakistan says it offers only moral support for the insurgents. groups like human rights watch blame militant groups, but they also finger indian security forces for widespread abuses

under the guise of rooting out militants. india insists that most are infiltrators from pakistan-held regions and beyond. tens of thousands of civilians have died or gone missing. kashmir's grand mufti, the top religious leader recognized by india's government, also blames both sides for excesses, and his numbers are much higher. >> since 1989, when the situation became more critical, hundreds of thousands of people are missing and hundreds of thousands more have been killed. we have no knowledge of where they are. the killing continues unabated, and the situation is still simmering. >> reporter: in recent years, the kashmir dispute has taken on a new dimension as india has announced plans to build several dams, seeking hydroelectric power for its fast-growing economy. but kashmir's rivers also irrigate the breadbaskets of both india and pakistan. so far there have been no problems sharing their waters under an internationally

brokered treaty in 1960. however, pakistan says the indian dams could affect seasonal water flows to its farmland. >> it's devastating, because if the waters are not available to me in the quantities that i need them at the time that i need them, then i'm looking at a very low productivity of my agricultural sector. >> reporter: pakistan has taken its protest to arbitration provided for under the indus water treaty. india insists it is in full compliance. however, the fact that india, being upstream, could in theory manipulate flows could be politically toxic, particularly after the severe floods pakistan has endured in recent years. >> reporter: hafiz saeed is a man the u.s. government has branded a terrorist and for whose capture it has offered a $10 million bounty. saeed has blamed india for worsening the flooding. pakistani presidential advisor kamal majidulla says such rhetoric resonates among farmers

who are hurting. >> the farming community, which otherwise could look after their children, are unable to do so, so the children have been going off and staying in madrassas instead of going to the local school system, because the madrassas feed them. i'm not saying all madrassas are bad. they do perform a social function, and some of them perform a very good social function, but a fair number of them are not. and this is where the cannon fodder comes from. so there is a direct linkage between water availability, low agricultural productivity, and the rise of terrorism. >> reporter: officials in india's capital delhi say the pakistani fears of water treaty violations are overblown. ashok jaitly, a scholar at a delhi-based think tank, says the bigger threat is poor conservation and water mismanagement on both sides. >> if you had a cooperation based on good scientific river basin management of the indus basin, and that's where the indus water treaty does not

provide for it, it only provides for sharing of water. it does not provide for scientific integrated river basin management. if you could have that, then i think a lot, i won't say all the problems would be solved, but a lot of the problems between india and pakistan would be resolved, or could be resolved. >> reporter: back in kashmir, long squeezed as its two nuclear armed neighbors fight over it, mufti bashar uddin says growing numbers want no part of either. >> as a religious leader, i would tell the people that if the option of independence is offered, that would be the best bet for kashmir. >> reporter: that seems highly unlikely-both india and pakistan reject the idea. so, to most analysts, does any quick resolution of the kashmir stalemate. in recent months, there's been a thaw in relations between india and pakistan, with proposals to

vastly increase the amount of trade across the border. coincidence or not, kashmir has enjoyed one of its quietest periods in years. the natural beauty is once again luring tourists. in 2011, more than 1 million visitors came here, most of them indian. it remains to be seen whether and how much more tourism and commerce can repair 65 years of suspicion and upheaval. for "religion & ethics newsweekly," this is fred de sam lazaro. we have a story today from bob faw about african-american spirituals from the days of slavery. spirituals conveyed hope for survival and freedom in this life, and triumph in the life to come. they are still sung and taught, still passing on their good news. ♪ lazarus rise up the lord is calling you

oh, come forth, larazus the lord is calling you ♪ >> reporter: the voices of the morehouse college glee club blend perfectly. the timing, the intonation -- masterful. ♪ jesus is calling you no need to be afraid ♪ >> reporter: but listen to the lyrics, and you'll find there is more here than just music. ♪ when you hear me shouting i am building me a home ♪ >> reporter: spirituals like this one, performed at a washington, d.c. library. ♪ and my soul got to have lord, somewhere to stay ♪ >> reporter: or spirituals with

repeated rhythms of the culture. ♪ i heard a voice i couldn't stay away i heard ♪ >> reporter: this one performed by the boyd baptist church choir in rock hill, south carolina. these spirituals are melodies and words from a dark chapter of america's past. >> what it was part of what i call the survival tools for the african slave. there were many cultures that were virtually wiped out as a result of similar kinds of oppression. but what happens here is that the spiritual is a part of that survival, because they found their way of singing through many of their problems. they found their way of communicating through these. >> reporter: slaves in the plantation south drew on native rhythms and their african heritage.

for them, spirituals were religious folks songs, often rooted in biblical stories, woven together, sung, and passed along from one slave generation to another. >> and they pulled out stories that worked -- daniel in the lion's den, you know. the stories of moses, "let my people go," you know. all of those things were things that worked out in terms of what they were going through, how they were coping with it. >> reporter: listen, for example, to the spiritual "ain't a that good news," which dr. brown sings with his accompanist, ella lewis. ♪ i got news to tell you i got good news ♪ >> reporter: it's a spiritual which makes the present bearable. ♪ i got a crown up in that kingdom ain't a that good news ♪ >> a spiritual that says beyond

this world there is victory. i'm going to get my crown. i'm going to be regal. >> "nobody knows the trouble i've seen" or "sometimes i feel like a motherless child," but then there was always that message of hope in them that would allow you, okay, this is what my circumstance is, but this is what i can look forward to as well. >> reporter: spirituals, which arose at plantations like this one in roswell, georgia, were really a double-edged sword. while the melodies might suggest to masters that slaves were happy with their lot in life, if you listen closely you will find the message in many spirituals was defiant, indeed rebellious. >> the stereotype was that as long as the slaves were singing and dancing, they were happy, and we said we're good. well, we can also communicate, you know, "steal away, steal away to jesus, steal away home, i ain't got long to stay here." there is a lot of message in there, of course, about going to heaven, about also i'm telling

you that steal away home meaning i'm going to escape. i'm letting you know it's going to be soon. you know, we couldn't very well flat out say it, but we could certainly sing those songs. ♪ keep your lamps trimmed and burning the time is drawing nigh ♪ >> reporter: this spiritual is both biblical and subversive. >> it speaks of lamps trimmed and burning, as in the reference to matthew 25, but in the secondary meaning it is we are going to prepare to escape, and you must be ready. ♪ the time is drawing nigh these people are communicating from one plantation to another right under our noses, and in

fact organizing in such a way that insurrections were had, and the slave master did not know. these people were not by any means dumb and unintelligent folk who did not understand how to communicate in an effective way through this vehicle since so many others were denied to them. ♪ ♪ you better run >> reporter: spirituals helped to spread the gospel. ♪ walking to jerusalem just like john ♪ >> reporter: years later, they were adapted into the freedom songs of the civil rights movement. ♪ if i got my ticket then i ride ♪ >> not bad, not bad at all. it is just a little brighty in all sections. >> reporter: and today colleges and churches nationwide still perform them. ♪ lord, let me ride

>> reporter: for soloist darian clounts, singing them does more than just rekindle the past. >> what that music is is the music of my ancestors, my forefathers, everything, so that when i feel it, when i sing it, i do feel something deep down from within. spirituals live not just because they're a link to the past but because teachers feel a profound obligation. >> one of the reasons why i think it is important, every time i do teach it, it becomes something our students attach themselves to and connect with. >> they live on, too, because even though slavery has been abolished and time have changed, that message of hope, the promise of deliverance, still resonates.

♪ i'm going to lay down as well ♪ ♪ going to shoulder up ♪ i'm going to take it all to my jesus ♪ ♪ ain't that good news ♪ good news >> shoulder up my cross and take it home to my jesus. my burdens, i will take it to the lord and leave it there. >> african-american spirituals alive and well. and from this country's darkest past, something glorious. for religious and ethics "newsweek"ly.

that's our program for now. i'm bob abernethy. you can follow us on twitter and facebook, find us on youtube, and watch us anytime, anywhere on smartphones. there's also much more on our website. join us at pbs.org. and there is good news about our website. it has won this year's people's voice webby award in religion and spirituality from the international academy of digital arts and sciences. thanks to all who supported us. as we leave you, scenes from the national day of prayer observance held on capitol hill, thursday.

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