james jones. but when mcdonau calls it's clearly he's clearly speaking for the president. >> rose: can you define an obama doctrine. >> i think that really at the heart of this book is the notion of american primacy in the world, that post world war ii, that america is the only question world leader and is able to serve as the world leader and is always looked to that lasted to the cold war. even more so after the end of the cold war. it's not that obama at all wants to do away with that role but he has in mind the idea that maybe we won't always be the maintain our role of primacy in the world. obama goes out to places, he'll go out, whether it's the germany or economic conference in south korea and not always get what he wants. and so when he talks about it, it's interesting. if you listen to hillary clinton speak, she maintains really that

sense of primacy. dates back to the clinton administration talking about the indispensable nation and so on. obama gives speeches that are quite intriguing that say you know, we have help underwrite global security for the last six decades, sometimes without thanks. and that perfect tense in there kind of suggests that maybe we won't always be the world's leader. >> rose: richard holbrook wrote a chapter on him. what is it you want us to know. >> how tragic it was, that he really didn't fit in with the obama team, that they, he never had the scope to do what he wanted but in addition, that there was a generational conflict there as well. that he really, he saw himself as the central figure in afghanistan and other people in the administration, and then

including the president didn't. and really it was just not a good fit. so actually, i mean i had people say, we had a meeting on afghanistan and holbrook came in and began talking about vietnam and finally we were all rolling our eyes. i had the u.s. ambassador to the united nations susan rice not of holbrook but saying we're just so sick of the psychosis of the 60's. so he really didn't want -- >> rose: many people thought u.s. involvement in iraq of george bush 41 would have said that he ended the vietnam syndrome. >> right. that's right and not just george bush but democrats going way back to gary hart i'm past vietnam. in the odd perspective of the obamians, they were reacting to vietnam but the obamians, they were over reacting by showing that they were tough and so on.

these guys think that they just, it's just not on their radar screen and they don't want to hear it. >> rose: one thing holbrook used to insist on and talk about a lot which i don't think changed necessarily was the fact that he thought that the military was a central figure in afghanistan and iraq and pakistan that military figures, general of joints chiefs and others were guiding policy. and their role went beyond just military strategy. >> right. and i think that was certainly the most true in the first year and with the key decisions to send a surge of troops into afghanistan. obama and his administration gradually shifted on that, and i think that by the third year, they felt comfortable enough to either ignore or minimize the advice of the pentagon. >> rose: the obamians the struggle inside the white houses redefine america is one of the great questions of our time.

thank you for coming. >> thanks. >> rose: pleasure have to you. thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. tonight a conversation with a legendary husband and wife songwriting duo. they're more than 50-year career includes classic works from the theater, film, and television and in history with barbara

streisand. she released a tribute album. the first time in her career she devoted an entire project to a single lyricist or do a. we're glad you can join us. conversation with alan and marilyn bergman coming up right now. >> every community has a martin luther king boulevard. it's the cornerstone we all know. it's not just a street or boulevard, but a place where walmart stands together with your community to make every day better. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. tavis: what a pleasure to

welcome alan and marilyn bergman. she was telling me about her granddaughter. she brags about her grandbaby and her daughter. over the course of those as husband and wife, they have teamed up on the most memorable songs of all time including "the ay we were," and "you don't bring me flowers." they have won 16 awards and a number of others including induction into the songwriters hall of fame. alan and marilyn bergman, i am angered -- honored to have you on this couch. >> we have been here before. tavis: any time i see them in town, i will run across everybody to get to the burdens -- bergmans. you are two wonderful and

special people, to say nothing of your man's talent. thank you for finally getting on this couch. let's start with this and do with it first and move on. how did barbara streisand -- barbra stress and become your mews -- streisand become your muse? >> we have had a lot of years together. we were taken to hear her sing when she was 18. by a composer who wrote "funny girl." from that first night we knew that we have heard a singer that was unlike any other we have ever heard. and we became friends. as a result of that night,

shortly afterwards. we have not been out of each other's lives since then. >> were born in the same hospital. tavis: in brooklyn. you were born four years apart and ms. streisand in the same hospital. this was meant to be, obviously. all born in the same hospital. >> it must be something in the water. tavis: when you say you heard a voice the likes of which, the sound of which you had never heard, you work with great artists and there are many great singers who you admire and love. what was it about that voice as composers that resonated with you? >> first of all, in addition to the wonderful local equipment she had, forgive me, i am a little hoarse. she is a storyteller, actors,

a director. -- actress, a director. she always has to put songs in the dramatic context. what is this about, who is singing, what is the relationship? i think that affects the performance, makes the performance. tavis: you two are so modest. what they get handed to them is such rich a lyrical content, that if they have any kind of song stylings, they can bring to the content, it is going to be magical. so much of it has to do with the wonderful lyrics. >> that is very nice. that's not forget the melody. forget the melody. the great composers we have worked with and we prefer to write to the music. people always ask which comes

first? we prefer the music to come first and when you have people like margaret hinglish -- marvin hamlisch, hank mancini, there are, how we feel about it is when the melody is there, it is wonderful their words on the tips of those notes, we have to find them. that is our exploration, our discovery. tavis: henry mancini becomes hank mancini. one of the greatest, one of the best. >> terrific. tavis: how did, i know the story. how did the two of you made after being born in the hospital four years apart in brooklyn? how did you come together?

>> we were writing with the same composer, i was with him in the morning and marilyn was writing with him in the afternoon. he distorted -- he decided to introduce his a.m. writer to his p.m. writer. we enjoyed the process and that was in 1956 and we have been writing together ever since. >> she said before to me in conversations and i suspect others that you suffered a severe injury that had it not been for that injury, you might not have ever gone into songwriting. >> i was living in a fifth floor walkup in a tenement in the village in new york. it had marble stone steps, worn from years of traffic. it had been reading that day. the top step was wet.

and i took a header down those steps and broke both my shoulders. and i was going to college in new york at the time. my parents had moved to l.a. while i was in college and i never wanted to come out there. i was a new yorker. this was beautiful. tavis: beautiful but dumb. >> i had to come out here. and you only -- the only friend i had was this song writer. bob russell who wrote "don't get around much anymore," he was a great writer. i visited him in a body cast and i said what am i going to do out

here? it is going to be weeks and weeks and physical therapy and all that. i said i cannot drive, i cannot do anything. he said, why don't you write songs? i had been -- i said, i cannot play the piano. i cannot even come my hair or anything. he said, well, write lyrics. you can talk into a tape machine. he introduced me to this young a.m.-pm rudder -- writer and we wrote a song together that day. i did not know you could write a songn a day. i d n know. the -- we wrote a song that day and peggy lee recorded it tt

day. ba.isike takgdyrom a i wagoin to go back to sool and become psyist.olog that s stopped in ittracks. tavis:hose troken oders have led to this au ande're the beneficiaries in yo life. he made thpoint moment ago wh youstdardserlower aackn theayyou could write son dayg a higher. at is e song writingroce righlike right now? te me what it is now vs 50 s o. >> it depes on the how fficult it is e things that are wantdy the producer or director of a for instance, "the windmil of yourind."

the scene was eve the stqueen aracter was fing a glider d had masterminded the robber bank. heid not particite but he signed i he was fing thislider, which he didsu he was very grimvery anxious. n,e dict, noan jemiso said, i a. to write a sg to undee the anxetthe characr -- i want you to write a song to underli the anxiety the aracter s feeling and miche wrote the mic, we stenedover and over. >> we saw the filmal sever times.

t we cided to spendhe inking about which medy would b the right one the three of a scheme up wit the same one. a ve broke memor-- mely. like circles. hat your theourne us on to theseesirnd irals. do not think toft is tru all. tavis: what doou think?ong. anxiety was the key word. anxiety to is circular. fi say, ok, i'm going tfeel , i wi not be anxious, i will nothink about anore and the moreou t to

do that get wound up in i doot know. >> wheyou wa t go sleep and you cannot tn your mind off. tavis: back to agreement. i love it. >> is part of the circular thing -- it is part of th ciular thing of the gl. both. nce u weentioning e film, how is and know i am ng arod heecau ur career is a ric we will bounce around here. how d u get into composition? it does no mean you will end up into film scoring as composers. >> no.- hen we sutartedwe were n ies in writing records. we were more interested in writing for the dramaticntext. thats at we want to do. tas: why? >> theiterature of popular

music, the most interesting songs were writn people w writen a context. likehe gershwins. oscarteammeohnny mercer. i was lucky enough to he johnny merr as a mentor. he sod over my sde andsten to w. that is where we learned and those are the great songs for us. that is why we wanted ulate. >> i have to bk a minute. you said that i saidur itas not that cou wte at song in a day.we kmuch less e t, u know, weer,

i s going ty responsive- respone. our andards were always very gh because we listened. werew up listeng to the greatest sonriters tavis: y cannot do what u done as well as you have done whoiously a wonderful words are srribly important. wh makes it work is tori words and t pl, oveimified, hoously. did each of you dopuc a love of word >> andlanguage. myher and i when en i was 5, 6, around in there. my father taught me a game called anagram. two or tee week until i was 11 or 12. and then he says,you a

getttoo good for m and you nn be writer without being a re. tavis: you read iessaly, bo of you. of what kinuff do y read? mazis, books? >> everything. >> maryld ad magazines. d newspapersu more an i do. maril rea >> it is true about reading. anagrams is about wordplay bu readng is rely about f in le th and elliorytg. i th pre-television whe ere children, i do not think that c bundestated. the wayhaone ou afternoon or evening was to rd

a boo and ink wha a says, it cannot be a wter witht ing a reader. true, very true. rgue that, i willhe s f te of debate toyour . oncould are tt tnd tradition tt you will have continueto advance ion le support,e toif you h read bause who w reading the days like you all did back in theay, nuer one and to the point made countless tim aly in is con whater happened to melody? what i the futuref the >> i sgbook? o not know. . am tterribly opmiic i think we ve become such a ua society. again, i go back to television. i love television.

i am an interaatcher myself but nt the expense not reading. expernce, learngrtainin expeen, thatne has officially by reading at your own sed and going back and re- readina tt you caot have eier in film or any visual.it is so't is going by you. >> also, the young writers today, they dohaot n opportunity to hear. >> you measongwriter songwters. they do ne an opportunity to hear anlearn hat we lenedm those grt writers. composers and lyricists that we about. you cannot black or learn wha you cannot hear -- like or learn

what you cannot hear. it is diul to heath from the great american songbook. >> thi of what we grew upn. the thter in those days. we mentioned to you -- this to younce when we were waiting for jonquincy. tavis:ou always wait for quincy. >> we had to kill time. werew up pooinbrooklyn, but we were old enough to go on the we would sneak into theater, larlarticu musical theat in the send act. it c wft, rely. u would find o when inteission in ery was show,

exactly where tt was in every weathe it could be freezing out,ould take f your jacket or coat and you would stand with it or your arm and lookike you just came of the theater and mix ihen with crowd. this was aold-t sw with standing room. it was a cinch. you just stand in the back it became a trek to figure out where the empty seats mht b anyway. even though we could not afford to s the whole show, is the kind of poetic justice that it was often we would walk out of shows -- people uld walk ou of sws.vis: that is funny if yive lo enoh, it balances out. >> that is true. and you get e valued timso mu. wegrewp on great mical

theater. great film. we werealking earlier out there about fred astaire and out the gat songs thawoul written if not for ed astaire. and ne kelly and a those eat -- judy gaand. the wa a great tdition of musical theater and musica them -- film. we were students at that time. tavi whene work, what allows you to sit baay, "that'sood. what is that barometer, at is that standard when you wrote something and you kw this is a good song. >> it sounds good in the morning.

tavis:t sounds good the next morning. then it is good. i like that. >> 're always lookingor a that ia big chaenge for us. vis: i a gd u said that. not a songwriter, thank go i wod love to be. outhat w be a - that is aalrder. love on the on han is an inexhaustible subject matter. on the other han woud,ne think that everytng autove has alre been id so as songwriter, how do you fd a w y to sayt? that is the job. if that we my assnment every i would be too intimidate t star d. work very d, i know talking to differe ma.st on a er enf they have b he ve diffent ect in a differe book, a differentov there is a mu stuffindo gr

into. t yo, youit tave gh. >> you do your hework and so writers can do their homework, to in reading andistening and obrvin all that goes io what you try and tel trying to tell. and when weave a movi a lm twrite for is a very spr toveecic mas you have scpthave, you lationshs, you have contt .n i think some the -- the ngs where most proud of,ha weave en proud owould vevehan written without the fi for which the were written. he waye re"wod no at film but without th tle. that whe ome wnly tihave

gottt titleandl -- a tindede hao us. lookthrelationshn that e and the roleorhe song was, parthat the sun had to pl. direor can tell y what the nction othsong is. way ahead. like sidney pollack. tavis: my me is up and because i've bn working for years to ge my fries th couch, i ll keep th for ano is was not planned but i will hold them captive f aer night and wi put them on the sp. they hava whol t fige ou ttil we see you torrow night. nding a neway to say lov i am curious from bo of u on this programomorronight as toic or couple spl of lyricat youave written that younkest descr