massive investigation. >> we ended up with a case filed over 4,000 pages, over 30 boxes of documents. it's interesting because as "cloak and dagger" as final exit was, they insisted on leaving a paper trail. >> narrator: the vast amount of material revealed for the first time the inner workings of the network and convinced the forsyth county da that the organization had crossed a line. >> final exit was assisting, there's just no doubt in my mind about that. i guess it's kind of like pornography: you know it when you see it. but the problem is that we have to work within the confines of what the law is. >> narrator: and to persuade a jury that final exit network had broken the law, the investigation needed to show that the exit guides were doing more than just providing

information. on february 25, 2009, network president ted goodwin arrived at this house for what he thought would be his 41st exit, but instead it was a classic undercover sting operation. >> narrator: an agent posing as a man dying of pancreatic cancer had applied to final exit network for help. >> the undercover sting showed what the rest of the facts intimated. >> want something to drink, ted? >> no, i just had some water. >> it was consistent with the training materials. but we actually had the players, the defendants themselves, going through this.

>> you know, i think then that a jury could believe that this is actually how it would happen with other people. >> the holding of the hands, though, became something much more sinister, and also legally significant, than just the idea that there is this other person, you know, who's putting their hand on top of that person just to have some human contact. here, it was that they were actually keeping the person's hands down or the arms down so that they couldn't remove the bag.

>> narrator: as soon as physical contact wamade, agagents arrested ted goodwin. >> i did touch him, and with the idea that had he died and he had tried to, you know, put his hands up unconsciously, i would have held them back. i think that there is a sacred moral issue here, okay, to protect them from a botched suicide. >> within minutes of the moment that ted goodwin was arrested, they had people executing search warrants and arrest warrants in six states. thousands and thousands of documents were seized, hours and hours of tape-recorded

telephone conversations. they spent millions of dollars, and coordinated the expenditure of millions of other dollars of other agencies' time and efforts all across the country, in this gargantuan investigation they referred to as "bust day," the day that they were going to dismantle final exit network. >> my hope in prosecuting them was to put final exit out of business, and at least to make a point to these people that this is illegal and it is not acceptable. for me, it was not about the right-to-die, end-of-life decisions, it was about the rule of law. >> narrator: while georgia readied its case, criminal indictments were issued in phoenix, arizona for the death of jana van voorhis. it would be the first case

against final exit network to go to trial. >> she took her life and they helped her do it. >> narrator: medical director dr. lawrence egbert was charged with conspiracy to assist in a suicide, and "exit guides" frank langsner and wye hale-rowe were each charged with manslaughter. >> with the arrests of both our volunteers in arizona and georgia, we were on the map as it pertained to awareness of our country, that there were activists prepared to challenge the law. and were they or were they not breaking the law? well, this was up to courts and other wise people to decide. >> they made sure that she used this hood when she put it over her head. >> narrator: the jana van voorhis case would be the first trial since the days of dr.

kevorkian to test the nation's laws prohibiting assisted suicide. >> let's take a look inside, exhibit 91. >> narrator: a guilty verdict in arizona could mean the end for final exit network. >> they knew exactly what they were doing. >> the final exit network does not aid people in committing suicide. they provide information, they provide comfort, and that is all that they do. >> narrator: but in a move that was seen as a shocking betrayal, wye hale-rowe, one of the network's most experienced exit guides, pled guilty to a lesser charge and agreed to testify for the prosecution. >> were you talking to ms. van voorhis about suicide? >> i talked to her about hastening her death, yes. >> one day, i forced myself to read through the statute over and over again. at about the fourth time, i was convinced that i would fry. i mean, i really thought that i would be found guilty.

i thought the spirit of the statute included any kind of thing that could be interpreted as assist, and that it wasn't something that i would expect a jury to split hairs about. >> frank and i arranged the pillows... >> narrator: this would be the first time that anyone in the country would testify publically about the inner workings of an assisted suicide organization. >> because we wanted it to appear as a natural death. >> when you say "we," who are you referring to? >> the final exit network. >> you could have blown me away the first day, when trial opened, and they're talking about networks who are... people who are trained, they have seminars, they meet, they talk about it. >> i was shocked. i didn't even know any of this existed. i had never heard of this network, i didn't know there was

assisted suicide, and then the method, i would have never thought. >> do you recognize what this is? >> yes, i do. >> when we got to the jury box, i could see the helium tanks. and so i'm thinking, "wow, two tanks of oxygen." then they start talking about the hood. and they don't open it. they don't open it for a long time. in my mind, i'm conjuring up an execution hood. you know, that's the only hood i know. >> i think this is a hood that has been made to specifications, yes. >> when the whole thing came together, i could have thrown up. the thought of hooking the apparatus up, putting that hood on your head, it was barbaric to me. >> how long after she put the bag over her head was it

until she stopped breathing? >> i think about 12... i think it was 12 minutes. >> if not for final exit, i think she would still be here because i don't think she would have tried to commit suicide by herself. it was more to me like a push on their part and not a final decision so much by jana. he came out and said she was gone and maybe i didn't want to see, and i said, "i have to." >> if she had not been mentally ill, she would not have chosen suicide at this point in time because she was not physically ill, she was not in physical pain. those things were part of her mental illness. the mental illness is what makes the big difference. >> there is not a single witness who came into this courtroom... >> narrator: but in a strategic move that stunned everyone, the defense argued that jana's

psychiatric history should be disallowed. >> any medical reason she had or whatever reason she had is not relevant. >> the fact that she was mentally ill, it's irrelevant. the crime of assisted suicide doesn't have as an element the physical or mental condition of the person committing suicide. it's irrelevant. it wouldn't make a difference if she was one day away from death. it's still a crime to assist a suicide. and if that's true, why does the jury have to know what her physical condition was? >> jana van voorhis wasn't terminal, she was not suffering from an illness, she was psychologically challenged and thought she was very sick. >> ultimately the judge agreed with our argument and prohibited the prosecution from putting in any evidence whatsoever about ms. van voorhis' physical, mental condition. they were not allowed to tell the jury that she wasn't terminally ill. they were not allowed to tell the jury that she was suffering only from mental illness. >> narrator: so with jana's

mental illness off limits, the entire case against final exit network would come down to the jury's understanding of the words "aid" and "assist." >> now, the law in arizona, manslaughter by aiding suicide, is simple... >> narrator: but as in most states, the meaning of those words is left open to interpretation. >> i would almost bet that each and every one of you are sitting there and you're like, "what does aid mean?" that is why the court has provided a definition and the law has provided a definition, and it's in your jury instructions. and the definition is... >> "aid" means to assist in the commission of an act, either by an active participation in it or in some manner advising or encouraging it. >> and we picked that apart different ways, over and over. and everybody had a different interpretation. >> i couldn't say that these people assisted, because i wasn't explained what the state decided assistance was. what is assisting?

>> what's your definition of assist? >> hospice is assisting, as far as i'm concerned. they're giving you injections. they know you're on your way out. they know that you're going to die. and they're helping you. they're giving you quality instead of quantity, and they're assisting you to die, peacefully. >> if the law included verbal... giving information as part of assisting, it would have been cut and dry for me. yeah, they did that. they gave them the information, and, you know, therefore they did assist. but to me, assist was physically helping. >> just because they didn't say they touched them, or touched jana in this particular case, to me doesn't take away that they helped her.

they did. i mean, they'll admit that they did because that is their duty as an exit guide. and to me, that is the definition of assisting, because she couldn't have done it without them, and she wouldn't have. >> we will ask you to return a verdict that tells the defendants, "you may not like our law, but our law protects individuals." >> narrator: after weeks of testimony and a dozen witnesses, the jury acquitted dr. lawrence egbert. but they were unable to reach a verdict on frank langsner, and three days later, the judge declared a hung jury. >> in the end, we just couldn't agree. i wanted to vote guilty. i just... based on what my

impressions of the evidence and everything and the way i interpreted the law, i just didn't think i could. >> i voted guilty, and feel very strongly about it. i think it places us in a position of being a god when we take a life, and we're not that. >> i just feel like assisting suicide is too close to murder. it's too fine of a line to murder. >> i had to put the moral dilemma aside and decide on whether these two defendants were guilty of what they were charged with. but they put us in a tight spot here. they didn't give us all the information we needed to do our job. i mean, that's the way i look at it. >> the whole thing's just sad. it's just sad and unfortunate, and, you know, you hope it doesn't ever happen again, but

it will. >> narrator: three months later, facing the prospect of a retrial, frank langsner pled guilty to a lesser charge. >> the result of the plea agreement was a year's probation for mr. langsner, a fine that would total about $1,000, maybe a little less, and that was it. i think personally that people get more of a penalty for stealing a 12-pack of beer from a circle k here than this gentleman got for helping my sister-in-law commit suicide. justice was not served here. the law was followed according to the judge, but this certainly is not justice, no. >> narrato months after the trial in arizona, final exit network had another victory. in georgia, the network argued that the state's assisted

suicide law as it was written violated the first amendment. and in february 2012, the georgia supreme court agreed, so the forsyth county district attorney had no choice but to dismiss the entire case. >> i would think that final exit certainly is not discouraged, because they've won in georgia, they won in arizona, and they are such true believers that i would think that only emboldens them. >> we are a better organization for this. our protocols are stronger, more definable, and we now will move forward. now that this yoke has been lifted from us, we will be moving ahead. >> narrator: but in may of 2012, the network was indicted again, this time in minnesota.

no date has been set for the trial, and final exit network continues to operate across the country. >> when you're getting into areas that are this complex, you are so much better off with an open system than a secret system. i mean, a helium hood? i mean, it just doesn't... it's a symptom of desperation, to me. and i do know why they've come to this: because other methods have been made out of reach. they would be more humane. but it's a nutty way to work this out, for all of us. i think there will always be some push at the edges of this kind of a law because the challenges are so compelling. we all imagine ourselves going in the shoes of some of the folks that we hear about. we try to think, "oh my gosh,

what would i want in those circumstances?" even though it's debated whether it should be legalized or not, it's very hard to prosecute somebody for this. this is just a symptom of our societal ambivalence about this whole process. people understand that these are people trying to do the best they can under really tough circumstances. >> narrator: back in connecticut, hunt williams refused to plead guilty for helping his friend take his own life. friends and neighbors rallied to his defense, and he was eventually granted a special form of probation. at his sentencing, the judge said, "mr. williams, i can only say to you that i'm glad it wasn't me put in your position that day."

bruce brodigan also never went to trial for assisting in the suicide of his father, but he spent a year on probation before the prosecutor agreed to drop all charges.s >> i just can't imagine any other answer by an adult son to his aging father other than, "yes. yes, you may die at home. yes, i will be there. yes, there are medicines in this house that will accomplish the fact of your death. yes, we're coming." >> i came out of the bathroom and art stood there to help me, and i just stopped and started to cry. and i said, "i just can't do this anymore." i cried and he hugged me,

and he said, "i understand, honey, i understand. and it was there, it was then the decision was made, and i have not stopped once to reconsider. not once. >> narrator: on february 21, 2012, two months after we first interviewed joan butterstein, she fell at home and broke her hip. afraid to wait any longer, she set a date to end her life. >> today is thursday, and on sunday i am going to take advantage of the pills that i have available to me, thanks to compassion and choices, and i am going to leave this earth. >> it's the right time, there's

no question in my mind. i'm ready. i'm ready. i... (crying) >> art and kathleen will be here with me. after i take the final medication, i will be in bed, and very shortly the heart should stop. i will go to a deep sleep, and soon thereafter, the medicine should make the heart stop, and it will be over. but it's okay. it's okay. there will be tears, as just talking about it, but it's okay.

i know it's okay. i'm content. >> narrator: three days after this interview, joan would take the lethal medications. she would die as she wanted: at home, with art and kathleen by her side. >> my dad got laid off. >> it's tough because my mom and dad are poor. >> i live in a shelter.

i wish i never lived here. >> my mom kind of made a wrong turn. (whispering): i'm hungry. >> (whispering): i know. so am i. >> i think when i get older, things are going to get harder than they are now. >> people don't realize what they have until it's gone. >> frontline continues online, where you can share the film with friends and family. >> the hard facts of life and death. >> it was not about the right to die. it was about the rule of law. >> explore the issues raised n "the suicide plan." >> we are all conflicted as a society about these issues. >> tell us what has shaped yor opinion on assisted suicide. and connect to tfrontline community on facebook and twitter, or tell us what you think at pbs.org/frontline. >> frontlinis made possible by contributions to your pbs

station from viewers like you. thank you. and by the corporation for public broadcasting. major support for frontline is provided by the john d. and catherine t. macarthur foundation, committed to building a more just, verdant and peaceful world. more information is available at macfound.org. additional funding is provided by the park foundation, dedicated to heightening public awareness of critical issues. and by the frontline journalism fund, with a grant from millicent bell, through the millicent and eugene bell foundation. major funding for "the suicide plan" is provided by the john and wauna harman foundation. captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> for more on this and other frontline programs, visit our website at pbs.org/frontline. frontline"the suicide plan" is available on dvd. to order, visit shoppbs.org, or call 1-800-playpbs. frontline is also available for download on itunes.

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to the program. this evening an analysis of the david petraeus resignation with began, with david ignatius,

martha raddatz and a norah o'donnell. >> he watch his reputation so well but he allowed paula broadwell all of this access. all of us had access to general petraeus over the years when he wants us around and tell us something. but this was different. he really allowed her to go everywhere with him. he talked to her all the time. i've talked to many aides, they were concerned about it in afghanistan. they were concerned how it looked, the optics of having this woman all the time. they described her as gushy and inappropriate talking about his thoughts. you've seen her on several programs over the last week. and things she was saying about him. that made them uncomfortable. >> well like martha, i've known him for about a decade, covered him in these war jones.

he's a disciplined man, a man with incredible force of will. as much as we talk about his counterinsurgency doctrine, when i think about what happened in iraq, it was really david petraeus' will power in that battle space in the way he changed people's expectations what was possible, what was striking. so to see a man of that intensity get involved with another very intense person paula broadwell, i'm surprised by the lack of discipline. you can see those two as kind of a match for each other, at least momentarily. >> rose: but first an excerpt fr our conversation with the woman in question, paula broadwell when she appeared on this program to promote her book. what was it that you intended to do in the dissertation that resulted in the book. what were you looking for? >> charlie i wanted to use petraeus as a case somebody, somebody that's a maverick within an institution can

galvanize institutional change. i wanted to see what was his specific role in helping to change and update our doctrine, the counterinsurgency doctrine, how he shapes the organization of our fighting forces, the training and equipment of those forces. i proposed to him he would be one of sell case studies and he agreed. >> rose: how is he different. >> i think he's willing to take an idea from anyone whether it's private, a think tank or someone from the private sector or press. he uses this technique called directive telescoping which is a technique commanders use. yeeg e-mail, he would go on battle field circulations to meet with young lieutenants and captains and try to elicit their feedback without the senior officers there. anyone who has a good idea including what was working in iraq at the time, and he was division commander could share it with him and he would take those lessons and incorporate them back in the unit and the

organization would adapt. >> rose: as we know he's the architect of the surge along with the awakening led to some success in iraq. when you look at that, that sort of what he did in iraq, he also had a special relationship with george bush. what was it? >> he was pretty close with the president. and he had a frequent contact with him via video teleconference from iraq. in fact the two call each other good personal friends. i think, of you can juxtapose that with his relationship with this president in that when they really first it was senator obama and petraeus was in iraq. obama was opposed to that war. he called it the war of choice afghan a war of necessity. they traveled throughout iraq and i think there was tension between them. over the course of sell years and i tried to document it in the book their relationship comes full board to the other side. not like his relationship with

bush but they're pretty close now and i think the president's excited to have him on his team and you can probably call him an obama guy. >> rose: there was a time when the president first went to meet him there, that there was some fetch between the two of them. >> to meet him in iraq. >> rose: yes. >> there was some tension because i don't think the president, senator obama at the time really believed what we were doing and the surge could work and was opposed to it. petraeus thought it was working and there was statistics and metrics to show what we were doing was showing progress. >> rose: and then he came home. >> petraeus came home. he came home from iraq that's right and went to central command after that. this is what he calls his favorite, his best assignment was really again a broadening experience for him at his senior rank. as you know central command has 20 different countries and includes a lot of what we are looking right now which prepared him for the afghanistan job and really well for the cia job. he's dealing with heads of state, administers of defense

and intelligence officials he dealt with. >> rose: he's not going to be chairman of the joint chiefs a job he might have wished for in the culmination of his military career. how did he take that. >> he was told by second gates in 2010 he wasn't considered. gates came out to check the war and came back and met with petraeus in his office and said you're the key to our expectations, you being the force and the progress and the surge. but i have bad news. you're not being considered. and it stung. he really felt that you know he had stepped down. >> rose: he felt he earned it. >> he felt he earned it, he thought he should be considered but he had mixed feelings actual actually about this position and he thought about other positions he would be interested in military. specifically the cia. he thought about keeping the union form on and going to the cia. he proposed that to second gats having liked the idea because he served there before. >> rose: as director.

>> right exactly. he took it back to the president and the president and petraeus didn't talk about it until march and the president said he would like the idea but you have to take off the uniform. he felt that was the best place for him. he felt he wouldn't get the chair position. >> rose: why did he think that. >> he wasn't interested in the chairman of chief at the army position or the other position gates offered which was supreme allied commander of europe. those appealed to him earlier but somehow he felt that he, they are prestiges positions but felt he had been there kind of done that. in some sense he was frustration with coalition management even though he's good at it and he felt that nato's not going to change all these countries are drawing down on their defense budgets. he prides himself on being a war fighter as much as i call him a professor. he really wanted to stay in the arena. the c it a he felt was the best place for that. >> rose: what does he want to do for the cia. >> he loves it and i think he

wants to stay there for a long time. he looked at the military like a system, like a clock with cranks. i think he looked at the intelligence community that way and being a commander he knows intelligence drives the operation. >> rose: is it just improving efficiencies here and there or is it a wholesale change of the culture there. >> no. he doesn't come in with an intent. my understanding is he doesn't come in with an intent to change the whole culture. >> rose: what is the most important thing you think you learned from him about leadership whether it's a military leader, a corporate leader, a political leader? >> it's very simple and i would say attitude is most important quality you can have. 90% of how things go is your attitude. 10% is chance and he really believes that. he's had many huddles in his life. nobody thinks that because look at his career. there are many assignments where people thought he was put out to

pasture and didn't get his first choice. like fort leavenworth, how he used that to change. people that he was being sensitive to the cia put him to pasture and kept him from running for office. he's excited to be there and loves the work force. he's a professor at heart and there are a lot of intellect actual cerebral folks thinking a lot about problems. he's pretty happy where he's at. >> rose: david ignatius, martha raddatz, norah o'donnell and john miller when we continue.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> the president thinks highly of general alan and his service

to his country as well as the job he has done in afghanistan. at the request of the secretary of defense, the president has put on hold general allen numb naig as a supreme allied commander of europe pending the investigation of mr. alan's conduct. the president remains fully supporting our troops and partners in afghanistan who general allen continues to lead as he has done so ably over the year. the president was certainly surprised when he was informed about the situation regarding general petraeus on thursday. he greatly appreciates general petraeus' remarkable service to his country both in uniform and at the cia. as he said in his statement, his heart, his thoughts and prayers go out to both general petraeus and holly petraeus at this time. he's focused on his policy agenda.

and he has confidence in the acting director at the cia and he has confidence in the military to carry out the various missions he has asked them to carry out. >> rose: give me that man that is not passion slave and i will wear him at my heart's court. general david pa contemporaneous and general john allen has all the e periences of a greek tragedy, following their every move, david petraeus resigned as director of cia in friday after revelations of an affair with his official biographer paula broadwell. a woman named joe kelly had complained to the fbi with a series of harassing e-mails, they were trailed back to paula broadwell who saw kelly as a rival. reports 20,000 e-mails between kelly and john allen. they have been handed over to the pentagon where they are being analyzed.

i interviewed general petraeus and general alan several times. paula broadwell joined me for a conversation early this year. joining me from washington d.c., davidic nake a column else for "the washington post" and martha raddatz a senior affairs correspondent with abc news. two cbs colleagues, norah o'donnell my cohost and john miller correspondent at cbs news who is frequently with me on cbs this morning. i'm please to do have all of them here. we'll be joined by norah and john in just a moment. martha tell me about general petraeus. do you know him. what is it about this story that surprises you most? >> well, i have known general petraeus and covered him in war zones for about a decade and what surprised me most is he seems like a man who is so disciplined and so careful about his image and about his reputation that it was jaw dropping to me when i first

heard it. >> rose: so the question is what didn't you understand about him? >> well, i mean i may not understand everything about him now but i was surprised that he would allow this i guess failure of discipline. he really does guard his reputation so well. he watch the people who are around him. but he granted paula broadwell this unprecedent the act sessments we've had access to general petraeus throughout the years when he wants us around, when he wants to tell us something. this was different. he really allowed her to go everywhere with him, he talked to her all the time. i talked to many aids they were concerned about it. in afghanistan they were concerned how it looked, about the optics having this young woman around him all the time. they described her as gushy, they described her as inappropriate because she was talk big his thoughts. you've seen her on several programs over the last week. and things she was saying about

him. that made them uncomfortable. now general petraeus says nothing happened in afghanistan. i still think we have to wait and see about that. under military law under the uniform military code of justice, he could actually face prosecution for adultery in the military and also charlie, he can be called back to active duty did they found they wanted to do that. i doubt that would happen, unless there was something beyond that. but that is certainly something he has very carefully told his surrogates in the last few days to say this did not happen until he retired from the army. >> rose: david, what would you add to general petraeus, a man you also know well. >> well like martha, i've known him for about a decade. and covered him in these war zones. did find him a disciplined man, a man with an incredible force of will. as much as we talked about his

counterinsurgency doctrine, when i think about what happened in iraq, it was really david petraeus' will power, his domination of that battle space in a way in which he changed people's expectations of what was possible was striking. to see a man of that intensity get involved with another very intense person, paula broadwell, you can see those two as a match for each other at least momentarily. i have met paula broadwell when he was commander three years ago. she was just beginning work on this project, this biography that was originally a dissertation she was writing. she asked if she could interview me and did so at some length for more than an hour about general petraeus, what i knew about him as a journalist and june of lat

year she was on her way and the staff was an which is about her, an scious about the demands she placed on them and on general petraeus. there was something that was odd there. i come back to the way you started this broadcast which is this kind of classic. it's shakespearean, it's greek. i think of leo tolstoy to writes about great people who are caught up in the tentacles of love. it's a story about a great person who achieved genuinely great things in his life turning out to be very human under that exterior that was so prominent. every one of us has an image of david petraeus with all those medals on his chest and it turns out he was a human being. as weak as many of us maybe weaker than some. >> charlie one thing we've got to talk about here too is the number of deployments petraeus had. he spent the majority of the last ten years, more than five

of those years in war zones. that takes a toll on a person. a couple years ago i remember interviewing him in iraq and i asked him about his rock-star status then and he said it is like having an extra load in my rucksack. he said sometimes he looked at himself and felt he was looking at someone he didn't know. i think that really does take a toll. david and i were talking a little buy before the program. a couple years ago when i visited dave petraeus i thought he had really changed. he was very difficult to deal with. so difficult in fact that when i went to combat outpost with him, he wouldn't look at me, he wouldn't talk to me, he was very snippy about talking to me about whatever i wanted to talk about at the time. so much so that i asked not to fly back in the same helicopter with him because he was so you been pleasant. that was so unlike him. that was september of 2010 but that was not the dave petraeus i first met. >> rose: i'm pleased to be joined by my colleagues from cbs

this morning, john miller and norah o'donnell. martha you were beginning to say i wanted you to talk about general john allen because there has been as we taped this proto a statement by the whitehouse by jay carney the president continues at this time to stand behind general allen well me about the allen aspect of this story. >> i think it's very very different than the aspect of general petraeus. i may be naive but i don't think anything untoward went on between john allen and jill kelly. i've been told by someone very close to general allen that he and his wife were friends with jill kelly and her husband and that absolutely there was no sex. the e-mails that you're talking about and documents and they say there are 20 or 30,000, this person very close to general allen said there were actually hundreds of actual e-mails and they came out with all the ccs to have all these documents.

but there were things like hey general allen i saw you on tv today. and he would write back and say thanks, sweetheart, thanks dear. so they may have sounded flirty to someone just reading them but they insist they were just friends. i think general allen has been entanged in this. it's very bad timing. his e-mails were found on jill kelly's computer and of course she went to the fbi because she got those anonymous e-mails they traced to broadwell. general kelly, i mean general allen i'm so confused. general allen i am told al giet an anonymous e-mail that they traced to paula broadwell. he told jill kelly about that e-mail because he was so concerned because it painted jill kelly as this saw deduct trust and said look out for jill kelly and those were traced to paula broadwell according to officials. i think this general allen thing is different from general pa

contemporaneous but general pa contemporaneous' infidelity has got allen up in this point. >> rose: that may mean he has somebody's back. >> information as well. >> general allen is still the commanding general in afghanistan so i think it would be unusual for the man to undermine the man who is still in charge of 68,000 troops in afghanistan. martha is right they are describing these e-mails hundreds of e-mails between general allen and jill kelly as flirtatious in nature. general allen insists he did not have a sexual relationship with jill kelly who is a socialite known who host parties at her house in tampa. also hosted the pa trace family and they were known to visit socially with the petraeus family in washington. this is now in love square if you will. there wasn't necessarily love between all of them but the connection is growing all around. things that concern people on

capitol hill what was the consent of these e-mails because hundreds of e-mails is still a lot. martha describes people at the pentagon pea are saying these are mostly e-mails from jill kelly to the general praising him for being on television, social types of e-mails as many as 10-11 e-mails a day. >> rose: just to bring the audience at home if you haven't been following this as closely as my four friends have, who is jill kelly, how did she get involved and what's the connection of the fbi? and what has the fbi done so far? >> so jill kelly starts out in the story as the victim. she's reporting a crime to the f built i'm getting these to the fbi or to a friend. >> the way she gets to the fbi she communicates with a friend who she meets at a fbi commune a event. hey do you remember me, we were in touch can you look at

somebody to look at this. he brings her to the cyber squd and they say where is this going to lead not knowing it was going of going to lead to the general's and so on. that's who jill kelly in the context of this case. who she is in the larger world is a tampa socialite married to a prominent although much lower profile and quiet radiologist from the moffett cancer center who was in the military community. she was on the social roster, she was on the socom that's special operations command social roster. she jumped with the parajumpers in a tan done jump. she attended the admiral's parties and affairs and so on. that's who she is in that context. >> rose: so she went to the cyber whatever the name was and then they began to look at her e-mails and who she received

e-mails from and from that they found e-mails having to do with general john allen. >> right one of the ways you do a case, all right let's see who is sending the harassing e-mails. what other e-mails accounts do they and you all of them going back a couple years to establish a pattern of activity. you also get jill kelly's e-mails to say let's see all of the e-mails coming in there and apparently in going through those something rose to the level of concern that said before the general, general allen goes through a confirmation process, we want to give those to dog to have a look at. now the thing that mystifies me is why then the department of defense at 2:00 in the morning releases on panetta's plane in the middle of a trip we received tens of thousands of e-mails about general allen and we're looking into it. so i think there's something more there that either we don't understand or that they jumped the gun on. >> rose: let me go to david. paula broadwell you said you met her. tell me more about her and where

she stands and when do you think, is there anything about her story or general petraeus' story that you have questions about? >> well, there are so many questions, so many things that we still don't know about this. paula broadwell was an attractive very fit person of quite striking physical presence. she and general petraeus famously liked to run together. she was a woman who in her 30's when she was having two children also managed to compete in triathalons. that's a person of real determination and discipline. she was strong-willed. what surprised people around general petraeus was she was a smart person but she was not intellectually gifted. general petraeus could have had any biographer in the world practically try to write his story with a kind of access that

paula broadwell had. it was mystifying that he had given that access to this person whose principle intellectual achievement had been a masters from the harvard kennedy school. not to slight that but she was not in the league of arthur schlessinger. suddenly she had everything. i remember when she was interviewing me she had just gone over everything like every week of general petraeus' career and command. i just would make one observation about what john was saying a moment ago. the ways in which this story seems to jump the tracks and take down careers, the moments in which people are afraid it's going to become political and that they have to protect themselves and their principles by putting out information. so i do think the trigger event for an investigation of general petraeus that was basically winding down. they had decided there really

wasn't evidence of breach of national security or classified information. i think the fbi was winding it down. when, apparently one of the fbi people first got involved with joe kelly on his own decided he would go to the republicans and congress because he thought the democrats might suppress this. that ended up to going to eric kantor the house majority leader who talked to the director of the fbi muller and the fbi then talked to director of national -- jim clacker and that's what led to him summoning petraeus going to the whitehouse and the whole thing coming out. the same way with the pentagon e-mails on allen they thought it was about to blow politically so to protect themselves cover themselves they decided to put something out. you have to wonder about that. people shouldn't jump so quicky because they think something is going to be public. >> rose: martha has to leave. so martha a woman said if a man will have one affairs, he'll

have many affairs. does this cast any kind of questions about general petraeus because this very disciplined man in the face of this very interesting woman who clearly had great ambition for herself. >> kind of the female version of dave petraeus. >> rose: yes, okay, okay. but what about it. i mean somebody said if man has one aware or if a woman has one affair she has many affairs. >> well i think there's still maybe stuff out there and i think a lot of people who know dave petraeus think there might be but we have no proof of this whatsoever. if he was the cia director it wouldn't be big a deal. being cia director that really makes this very very serious. >> rose: and being cia director you would think that he would understand e-mails more than anyone. >> yes. well not just e-mails but risking something like that. i mean he says this started when

he was cia director meaning the man has 24 hour protection. i have no idea how they carried this on whatsoever. but i think people will probably look back but as i said at the beginning, i don't think even if the military found out that something was happening in afghanistan and the only way they could really find that out is through explicit e-mails or through petraeus or broadwell. i think it very remote that the military would press charges. >> rose: do you think it's likely that his friends went to him and said what are you doin, general, i'm your friend. >> yes. i think some of his aides went to him and said look general petraeus it doesn't look good the access you're giving this woman. but those very same aides said they had no idea anything was going on. they were just as stunned as anyone they just didn't like the way they looked. >> rose: i know you have to run, martha. thank you for joining us. see you soon. >> you bet. >> rose: let me talk about

the fbi side about this and who should have known what, john. a lot of people listen to this and say you got to tell the president. and you said before with norah and me the fbi followed what their general procedure was. >> that's right. so the fbi practice on this is basically, and it will be, it will change in every case. people have to have a fairly open mind about this. they say if we reexamine this and everybody thinks we got this wrong, you know, maybe we got it wrong. but we looked in the book and said you got to notify the congressional committee about significant intelligence activities. this was a stalking case involving a woman in florida who turns out to be a biographer of a general who turns out to be the cia director and the affair appears to be over and they're getting through all that but what they say is we don't see a chinese agent here, we don't see classified documents coming from the cia director to her. so they said before