>> rose: welcome to the program. tonight, the stars of "breaking bad," brian cranston, aaron paul and anna gunn along with the creator, vince gilligan. the >> the very similar mill tuesday he created in setting this foundation i think it -- it resonated with audiences that we were presenting a situation and a story that could be real. and that we all are a mixture of good and bad. there is no we're always good or always right or always happy. no, we're far more conflicted

than that. and i think it tested the audience and what "breaking bad" has done is not only create a very compelling drama on screen but it's created conflict within the audience itself. >> rose: all about "breaking bad" for the hour. next.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: in 2008 the cable network a.m.c. took a chance on a television approximate fixed by x-files writer vince gilligan it was about a middle aged chemistry teacher diagnosed with terminal canneser who turned to cooking crystal meth to provide for his family. five years and countless awards later the gamble paid off big time. "breaking bad" is widely considered one of the great a dramas in the history of television. this year it was nominated for 13 emmy awards including outstanding drama. on sunday august 11 "breaking bad" returns to a.m.c. for its final eight episodes.

here is a teaser to those episodes. >> 2 w w. what do you figure that as? woodrow wilson? walter white? willy wonka. >> i'm scared because of you. >> how many more people are going to die because of us. >> what are you going to do to stop it? >> say my name. >> eisenberg. >> you're damn right. >> rose: joining me now brabs creator vince gilligan and three of the show's stars and emmy nominees. aaron paul, anna gunn and the man who plays walter white himself, bryan cranston. i'm very pleased to have them at this table. welcome. great to have you here. this is something. >> indeed. >> rose: take me back to when you first had the idea for this. >> i was coming off of seven years writing for the t.v. show

"the x-files." that was a wonderful job. that was a close second as far as great jobs go to "breaking bad." this one has to take the cake. but i was talking to a good buddy of mine who i went to n.y.u. film school with and he and i had written together on "the x-files" and we were bemoaning the fact that we couldn't get another great t.v. job. >> rose: (laughs) that life was over. >> and we talked about being greeters at wal-mart because maybe we'd be good at that. and he read an article in the "new york times" about some children who had gotten sick from a meth lab that their mother put in their bathroom. i don't know what the particulars were but my friend tom joked in his dark humored way that maybe we should build our own meth lab in the back on an r.v. and drive around and make money on the side while we're in between film jobs. and you'd have to know him. >> we have an idea.

>> suddenly this idea goes "book" and pops into my head for this character who at this point i do not have a name for who would do such a fact. a character who became known as walter white. but i think really what was going on at the time was i was about to turn 40 years old, back in 2005 or so, and reverse engineering looking back in hindsight on it i think i was really interested in writing a story about a guy having the world's worst mid-life crisis as i was probably about to embark upon my own. >> rose: so you had an idea, then you pitched it. and you pitched it as "mr. chips becomes scar face." >> it's always good to have a one sentence pitch when you talk to the powers that be and the basic franchise, the basic idea for the show was to take the protagonist and turn him into the antagonist-- good guy to bad guy. which seemed somewhat fresh and original to me. so the pithy pitch, as it were,

were mr. chips into scar face. luckily it was -- >> rose: sf. >> rose: it didn't sell to everybody. some people said "not right for us." >> which is very often the case to be fair. any t.v. show, any movie you've ever seen that you've loved or hated most likely had a history behind it of 10 or 0 or 30 people saying know before that person -- the right place at the right time said yes. >> rose: let me go to the next thing you have to do is casting. you need a walt white. so what was in your mind? >> this man was right here in my mind. i was very fortunate to have worked with bryan cranston in about 1999 on "the x-files." we had a tricky to cast ektor. that was two hander. agent mulder had to be riding for a car -- in a car for 45 minutes straight with a bad guy holding a gun to his head and being very nasty and repellent

and anti-semitic and a nauseating character who nonetheless when he expired at the end of the hour the audience needed to feel sympathy for him. to feel sad for his demise. and it was very hard to cast that. very easy to find -- very scary bad guy actors in hollywood. but to find the packages who could embody nastiness and yet also have some sort of underlying core of humanity that could show through intermittently when the moment called for it, very tricky and bryan came in, i didn't know him from adam, i didn't realize i'd already seen him in "saving private ryan" and "from the earth to the moon" and "seinfeld" because he's such a chameleon and he came in and just nailed it and as soon as he walked out of the room i looked to the other producers and said "o.t.w." which is trade speak

for "off to wardrobe. "and lo and behold he was great and i wanted to work with him in the future and the moment came. >> rose: and the moment came. you got a script? >> i got a script from my agency that said "you know vince gilligan, he wrote the episode of x-files that you were in." i thought oh, great, "breaking bad," i wasn't familiar with the title, i didn't know that it was a colloquialism and first page pair of trousers falling from the sky, bright blue, the red rock hitting the dirt. out of control r.v. runs into it. interior r.v., a man in tighty whitey underwear and a respirator drives madly next to him another man is passed out also in a respirator. he looks behind him, there's two dead bodies sliding up and back and a sea of chemicals and glass. that was page one. (laughter) i was getting nervous.

so he got you right away and i just blasted through the entire script, i was overwhelmed by far it was the best drama pilot i ever read and called my agents right away and i said when is this scheduled in and they said we have it next wednesday or tuesday, something like that. this week, this week. you have to get me in this week. a script like that is like catnip, you scratch it and you want it and i said i've got to go in there because i know they're going to go after this as soon as they read this. and i wanted to go in and mark my territory with the man. >> rose: skyler, tell me who she is and how you felt when you first saw the script and what you could do with it. >> well, i had the same feeling as bryan. it gripped me and i immediately -- i was -- i had just had my second child five months before

and i was sick and my friend sharon, our wonderful casting director sharon she was trying to get know come in for it and i was so tired being a new mom. i had another child as well and i canceled a couple of appointments and she called me at home and said "what is wrong with you?" (laughter) and i said i'm sorry. >> rose: that's what you want a friend to do. >> she said "sit down and read the script right now." and i said "all right." and i got off the phone and read it and i closed it and i said that is by far the best script i think i've ever read in my life. and i called her back and said "i'll be in tomorrow." (laughter) and so i went -- i went in and i just thought it was extraordinary and i called vince to talk about the character of skyler because there wasn't a huge amount about her in the pilot and i just wanted to know a little bit more about her and vince said to me one line.

he said: she will be carmella soprano but she will be in on the crime. >> rose: wow. (laughter) >> rose: transformation in character and all that. >> absolutely. and she starts off, you know, in one place and i knew that she would go to that place and i thought i don't know how it will happen, when, where, and i don't care and i'm in for that ride and it was -- >> rose: a five year ride. >> a brilliant five year ride. >> rose: i should explain aaron, you did not get the dress memo for this interview, did you? >> no, i'm so sorry. i was a phoner and i looked -- i had a suit -- (laughter) >> he's aaron hall! >> i had a nice tie picked out. i really -- i apologize. >> rose: well, we're pleased to have you just the way you are. >> well, thank you. thank you for having me.

>> rose: so tell me about jessie and a sense of your own connection to this. >> you know, i'm with everybody else, when i got "breaking bad" said to me i read it and it was hands down the best i'd ever read. i went in and my first meeting was with vince and our wonderful cast of directors. we just -- i had actually done an episode of "x-files" years ago and that's where we first connected and tom wrote that particular episode. so it was very much a warm room walking into this meeting and the pilot i just saw jesse as kind of just the burnout drug give. and i didn't see much more. as the series went on, more and more layers were -- >> rose: you were worried at one time you might not make it past year one. >> right, that was the plan, i think.

year one we were not going to have jesse around so thank god you change your mind. >> rose: so that's how it goes. you see how characters make your place and you say you can't peel them off. >> absolutely true. sarin a prime example of an actor that is too good to kill off. not that there was ever an intention to kill off walter or skyler, but it's wonderful in television, this wonderfully collaborative medium how much the actors bring to it, how much the crew brings to it from the director of photography on down, the directors obviously the writers, all these people get together and we writers, my six writers on the show, the seven of us together learned about these characters from the actors as much as anything. layers of complexity as aaron just said. essentially jesse was a bit of a

drug give burnout and not much more in my initial gript but these layers of complexity get added to the characters in large part once the writers get to know the actors and know who they are and what they're capable of in our situation blessed with these these actors have the range of pag nebny, these -- paganini. these amazing ranges. >> rose: we have good scripts, great actors yet a series like this has to have something else. what's made it considered one of the great television dramas that's made an interesting anti-hero that rivals what happened in the so pran knows with tony soprano? >> well, from my standpoint this has never happened before in the history of television. usually television is about stasis where you come to depend on consistency in a character and there's comfort in that.

and there's no -- there's room for that. there's much more complex toy these characters. conflict. and when vince told me in that first meeting that he wanted to take the character -- because in the script it doesn't indicate how long he's going to go on this binge. for all i know, this was it and he got scared and went back to teaching after that pilot episode. didn't know. but he told me he wanted to take this character and make a good person into a bad person completely change his -- the way he operates by the end of the series and i thought "i don't believe that's ever happened before." >> rose: the character has to have his same -- identity. >> it's a good rule of thumb in television historically that you -- you -- >> rose: suggesting rules ought to be broken. >> well, yes. after how many millions of hours

of television we've had since the creation of the medium marshal dylan is the same person in "gun smoke" in every episode. which is what you want. but i figured there was room in the medium for sort of a new way to take it. a new paradigm, a new opportunity to have a somewhat more finite and limited series. although admittedly when it started i didn't know how long it would go but when you turn the good guy into the bad guy it suggests an a to z story telling that then has a finite ending. >> rose: this question always comes up and has come up in the conversation between you and me. when did walt go bad? >> very good question. completely open to interpretation station. anyone else's take on it is just as valid as mine.

i -- i think we have a little difference of agreement on this which i like. for my money it was not in the first episode when he actually dipped his toe into criminalalty and even, in fact, killed a guy. it wasn't in the second episode when he killed his second -- >> rose: how do you define that? >> that's not bad! >> rose: happens to a lot of people i know. (laughter) >> there are kids watching at home! >> my best answer is episode four of this season in which walt is presented with the deus ex machina moment in which former friends of his who are now very rich billionaire -- we never exactly know what it is precisely that they do, but they

were just as brilliant in science as walt is and they've gone on to great success creating a fortune 500 company and they find out through skyler's intervention that walt is suffering from cancer and -- >> rose: terminal cancer. >> terminal cancer. and in purposefully deus ex machina fashion they come forth and say we're going pay for the best of care, the best of oncology care, we're going to get you well as humanly possible we're going to do this for you. we're going to give you a job, make you complete and well and whole." and walt at the end of the hour says "thank you very much but no." and he goes to jesse pinkman who at that moment he was on the outs with and he says "let's cook." and this's the moment for me -- >> rose: he's engaging in full-time participation in criminal activities. >> because that's the moment that puts the lie to -- that begins to put the lie to this idea that walter white does what he does solely for his family.

and that's the moment where he truly for me and i think for my writers he truly became interesting. because before that you put -- it's relatively easy to put a character under the box story wise and say, well, the old thing about the former special forces guy who's -- whose kids get kidnapped and -- so that he'll go kill the president and he's got to go kill the president to save his kids. you know, those kind of well-worn kind of mechanistic mechanical story telling tropes are interesting and they've made for a darn good story but really when walt does what he does, that's when i found it more intriguing. >> rose: and you think it came earlier. >> oh, yeah. i think in response to that i would think that had he not already gone down that slippery slope that he may have accepted their care.

but he had already turned -- to me. any time person attempts to become someone they're not for financial gain, whether it's altruistic, he's going to take that money and give it to his family, he's still compromising his ethics in morality and he made a devil of a deal. he -- a faustian deal, really. and i think it's that first step. it's almost imperceptible because you sympathize with what he's going through and you wonder "i wonder if i would do the same thing." so you may not recognize that that is the step he can't hide the spiral of descent. >> the slippery slope or whatever it is. so tell me about skyler. how did you see what she goes through?

it's been interesting of my learning about her. in the beginning it was hard for me to understand what was happening with her. we saw a pilot reading in los angeles last week and it was the first time that i had seen the pilot or heard it since, i don't know, probably in five years and i got tv point of view on skyler and walt and that relationship that also were almost revelatory to me in that they weren't miserable, they loved each other they just -- life dealt them curveballs and dealt them things that they weren't prepared for. they thought that life was going to be different. they had a child with special needs, he was working two jobs. they're a middle-class -- >> rose: you do what you have to do. >> you do what you have to do to get by and they were putting their nose to the grindstone and trying to get through. and the way skyler was trying to get through things, she was a

very, very practical, strong person. and the way she dealt with life was to order and manage and control everything and she's somebody whose emotions don't come up to the surface. she's somebody who pushes them down even to herself. she doesn't allow them to come up because they're too scary for her. and my back story that i created with her in terms of the thing with her relationship with marie is that is that she and marie only have each other. their parents, i think we discussed that as well. so marie and skyler had each other as sort of war buddies and skyler had to be kind of a mother figure marie and so she learned to be in charge very early. and that relationship and the pilot was that kind of relationship. she was in charge in that household and there is something sort of controlling in that but it's not in any bad way, she

doesn't mean it to be controlling. it's just how she copes. it's how people try to deal with internal turmoil. and so when she gets into the whole thing, when it's revealed that he's cooking drugs. when it's revealed that all these things are going on she tries to deal with everything by saying okay then how do i go into action? >> rose: how do i'll do with my reality? >> she doesn't sit and cry. she doesn't wring her hands, she says "what do i do?" and that's how she moves forward. i love the fact that vince made her a woman with a backbone of steel and it made viewers sometimes really upset. it made them angry. it made her a polarizing figure. and they didn't understand or like her for that sometimes because they felt like she was nagging. that felt like she was getting in the way. (laughter)

they felt like she was getting in the way of -- yeah, they felt like she was getting -- >> rose: so, aaron, the interesting thing about jesse is that he's a guy who has friends and he's a guy who develops relationships. his young friends, then mike, then walt. that's the most interesting thing about the character to me. >> yeah, i see it as he's in constant search of something, guidance and also acceptance. at first, you know, when we meet jesse i saw him as just kind this kind of fumbling idiot. almost like a comic relief in a way. but throughout the show you see that he didn't come from a battered home. that's not why he is doing what he's doing. he had a -- he grew up in a nice -- with a nice family and maybe a little bit too much pressure

put on him. his parents gave up on him long ago and so now he's just floating around and he just wants -- he's desperately in need of guidance and so he turns to walt, i think, really as a father figure in a way and he just wants -- he wants him to kind of see him as he really is. he just wants acceptance and love, really. which is just so sad in a way. >> rose: how do you explain fact that walt is what he is yet the audience wants him if not to win to succeed. >> i don't know that i dofr a good job of explaining it well. >> rose: well, maybe that should be everybody's interpretation. this anti-hero is not cary grant jewel thief. >> well, that is true.

and he's not robin hood. and he's not -- he is closer -- >> rose: he's "scarface, "as you've said. >> he is closer to scarface. actually, i think walter white would be scared and repelled by scarface. we saw a scarface character in our first season but walt dealt with him using his brains rather than his brawn. i -- first of all we were lucky that a wonderful show like "the sopranos requests paved the way for anti-heroes. >> rose: would the success of "breaking bad" have happened without that? >> somebody had to be first to get anti-heroes out there but having said that i don't know if it would have been "breaking bad" if we were talking 1999 again and it was if it was up at bat first instead of david chase and his wonderful show. they paved the way -- and certainly character vic mackey on the shield, another wonderful show, another wonderful

anti-hero. i don't know in an alternate reality how it would have worked out but the pump was primed, as it were, for a time of -- you know, historically television in the early days when it was more run aesthetic decisions were made by sponsors as well as executive and writers. the world of white hats and black hats and the guy wearing the white hat had to prevail and save the day. and although if you go back further than that you'd get your wonderful warner brothers film noir where you'd have bogart or you'd have jimmy cagney or edward g. robinson playing the bad guy. the original scarface. but they always had to suffer the consequences of their actions at the end. >> rose: what do you think it is >> i think there's a more sophisticated audience now. i think they demand more

complexity in their story telling and more of a reality. the very similitude that he created in the setting this foundation i think that it resonateed with audiences that we were presenting a situation and a story that could be real. it -- and that we all are a mixture of good and bad. there is no one we're always good or always right or always happy. no, we're far more conflicted than that. and i think that it tested the audience and what "breaking bad" has done is not only create a very compelling drama on screen but it's created conflict within the audience itself. as you were mentioning and saying, yes, and hating your character because he -- she was standing in the way of me cooking crystal meth and putting it out on the street and then the audience is going "wait, what am i rooting? ". >> rose: and not rooting for

you. >> right. right. and at first that was just confounding. i don't understand how they're hating the woman who's saying, hey, husband -- >> -- you're lyinging to me, i'm concerned about my family, our family. you're not telling the truth, you're never home and i need to know what's going on. and they're going "boo!" (laughter) >> give the man some freedom for god's sake, woman! what's wrong with you?" (laughter) >> as it evolve evolved, any surprises for you, for you, for you as the way it evolved from year to year or did you still feel yourself cast forward, projected forward once you settled in who your characters were and what made them tick? >> hmm. i was surprised in that -- not

to keep telling the same story but in episode four, the same season. i was surprised when walt told us writers that he wanted to be someone different than we had in mind. other than that i'm surprised i'm sitting here on the charlie rose show talking about a show that, you know, on paper shouldn't even have succeeded in the first place. it's astounding to me that this show has taken off the way it has. >> rose: astounding? >> astounding. i don't think that's an overstatement. i -- this show on paper -- i come up with this thing about a 50-year-old man who finds out in the first 15 minutes that he's dying of cancer. 50-year-old man -- >> rose: and you buy into the idea at the beginning that he is just a regular guy trying to make life work, don't you? or not? >> yeah, he's somewhat depress >> rose: kind of a mid-life crisis. >> but he's an honorable man, a family man, a teacher. he wants to spread the joy of his love chemistry to a sea of

apathetic students so you get his depression and i think people can relate to that. then all of a sudden the diagnosis of terminal lung cancer and you go "oh, this poor bastard." >> rose: (laughs) time for a new career. a new life. >> and when he decides to do this totally irrational thing through this set of circumstance you are kind of going "i get it. i don't know if i deed the same but i get it." >> location is also a character here. >> absolutely. >> rose: it gives you a place to leave your tale. >> it does, indeed. >> rose: why albuquerque? >> a location that we arrived at -- >> rose: i love albuquerque, don't get me wrong. >> i love albuquerque, too. i do not know albuquerque that well. i only visited once or twice before. the good folks at sony came to me once the pilot got ordered by amc-- thanks to both companies for being so supportive-- and

they said your money can go farther shooting in new mexico rather than where you originally set your pilot which is riverside, california. because at that point in time the state of npl phenomenon was offering a financial incentive. they said "what's the big deal? you put new license plates on that say california instead of new mexico and it will be fine." i'm glad that came to us. you can't swing a dead cat in this country without hitting a meth lab somewhere or other. that's a sad statement. no one state has the lock on it, unfortunately, it's a terrible drug and you find it everywhere. so it might as well have been new mexico but it turned out to be the perfect place for us -- >> rose: because? >> the beautiful skies. >> these landscapes. >> the western -- we -- what i

think we did for 26 episodes we shoot a post-modern western which i'm very proud of. >> rose: what does that mean a post-modern western? >> the sense that it is the american west but it's very different. last contemporary story but it's a west of strip malls and t.g.i. friday's but you get away from that and you still have a man alone on the horizon facing down his enemies. you've got that with walter white. you've got that -- a guy finding his way on his own. all these wonderful tropes, these mythic -- >> rose: you directed some episodes? >> i did. i directed three episodes and the last one being the first episode of the last season and a tremendous amount of work. >> i just can't believe it: i can't believe it. >> we work really hard. but we love it so it's all about

telling a story and when you read the script and break it down it's the same advice michael gave to you. where's the story. if you understand the story and listen it will tell you where to place the cameras. where do we want to see this scene take place and that's what i always respond to. it's wearing a lot of different hats but there's -- it's wonderful to be able to be the puppeteer. >> rose: was it easier for you because you knew the story? you knew everything you could know about the primary character? the main character? and you knew the relationships? you knew everything? >> the history -- the research was already done, the relationships are already established not just with the cast but with the crew so you can speak short hand. >> rose: so what was hard about it, other than you doing two things, acting and directing. >> you're overwhelmed with the amount of work.

and we have a finite amount of time. >> rose: he has to do a scene, for example, we have to zitd in the middle, we have to do that -- the episode you directed where i guess that you're dealing drugs. that was the episode that you directed so you had to sit there in that scene, we had to do that intense scene and in the middle of it we're staring into each other's eyes and you said "oh, right, cut." (laughter) and then you have to go to check the monitor and check a million things and everybody's coming to you and asking the questions and you have to be the one to answer them and then you have to go back and go into the scene again and i remember you asking me saying "how did that scene go?" and you have to check in and get answers so that you can understand >> i depended heavily on them. i go to them and say how did you feel about that? >> i felt that as things went on there was a little bit of that

going on between the two of us and that it got to the point where there was a power play, there was a power struggle, and there was also just this deal that had been struck between us and it became that shakespearean -- it really resonated that way for me between those two characters. >> rose: what was so great about the whole concept that everyone's morality was compromised. when push came to shove, she had to decide as skyler am i in or am i out? and she decided to go in. which was a surprise to a lot of people. >> rose: and that was very hard for you to -- for you and the writers to figure out how to get skyler into it. >> and, again, to the organ i can measure of story telling, somebody mentioning last night, we wanted to forestall skyler's

understanding of walt's extra curricular activities as long as possible at the beginning of season two -- is that what it was? or the end of season two. and we wanted to go another season or two without skyler -- with skyler still in the dark. and we just looked at each other in the writers' room and we said this character of skyler is too smart, the actress playing her is too smart, it will not wash if we go yet another season. so we changed our -- we did a 180 and suddenly it's like skyler knows everything. >> and it makes it more interesting then. >> rose: makes it scary in the writers' room but a much more interesting story. >> rose: let's talk about the final episode by not talking about it. >> sure. >> rose: so what was in your mind? what was the sort of avoid this, do this, all that kind of thing? >> but satisfying. satisfy the audience. have an ending that feels correct. that feels fitting.

and it -- charlie, i have to tell you. this past year or year and a half ending takes years off my life. >> rose: we remember the ending of so many great things, whether it's mash or mary tyler moore or on television or obviously "the sopranos." how do you bring everything together for the -- >> we spent -- my six writers and myself just spent hour upon hour upon hour enclosed in our writers room asking ourselves the same basic questions over and over again. what -- what do the characters want? that's the most organic and proper. >> rose: see, that's a fascinating question. what do the characters want? >> you know what it really comes down to? if you -- and you know it when you're doing it. if you say "'m going to get this great idea for a scene. i don't know how to get walter white there because he wouldn't do the things one would need to do to get there but we'll start

driving some square pegs into round holes, we'll make the character get to where we need him to get." and i'm not saying we never have great scenes that we desperately try to work toward but that's an inorganic way to tell stories and it feels wrong on the few occasion wes did it and the best kind of story telling, conversely, it seems to me is when you say to yourself over and over again "what does walter white want? what does skyler want? what does jesse pinkman want? ". >> rose: you know whether i'm going. what does walter white want? >> he wants -- well, he got to a point where he wanted it all. >> rose: not just the final episode, but what does he want by year five? >> he wants to be alive. even if that means he's going to be dead in a month or two, during that period he was alive. this course of two years that the show takes it's -- he was a walking dead man before, you know? he was depressed and he missed

opportunities and now he is at the very least you could say he's feeling everything. he was seduced by power and and the aphrodisiac of money and intimidation and all these things that make the chest come out and you stand up straight and it's very seductive for a man. and that's what he felt. >> rose: it's seductive for anybody. it's seductive. the idea that i matter and i'm relevant and i somehow have power and respected. >> even it's cloaked. the word on the street is whoever's making this, whoever heisenberg is, he's the best ever and he would be able to get some satisfaction of that." >> rose: some say, aaron, that you look at vince and you hear him talk, he sounds like the nicest guy, a mild-mannered guy, yet he has in his mind and the

writers that joined him on this journey, this is dark stuff. >> yeah. >> it's incredible. everyone that meets vince or has the privilege of working with vince will say he's the nicest guy that you ever worked with. but there's -- you know, there's something deep inside. >> rose: what do you think it is? >> i'm not sure. we all have our little secrets but -- >> rose: have you discussed this before? >> he's just a mad genius. >> it's interesting. i think that microcosm is where walter white is is that we're not all kind and we're not all vicious just like vince himself. it's a walking example of the type and the range and the spectrum of emotions that we all

have and we're capable of being kind and dangerous given the right set of circumstances. >> and we can feel rage and jealousy and all the things to wish others not well. do you think the same thing? >> i think the fact that you explore the duality of that in all these characters in such detail and with such complexity is what makes people so fascinated with it. that's what is what draws them in more than anything. i know people get drawn into the show for various reasons. there are different things people love about the show. >> rose: story or character or all the things. >> yeah. but i think it's really that it reveals so much about human nature in a very authentic way that hasn't been done before in this way and so enough incredibly polite southern gentleman but you have a -- you have -- you have a really

twisted sense of humor. and all that other stuff. it's really -- >> just like most southern gentlemen. not mentionings names. (laughter) >> rose: so i'm trying to stay away from this but i'm fascinated by where jesse might be going. up to the seasons we've seen before this is without getting into what happens when you can see jesse finding some kind of really interesting life. >> one would hope. >> rose: he's gone through a range of emotions. he has a bit of money. >> and the money doesn't drive his character. >> it's friendship -- he keeps going back and hangs out with his buddies. >> you're absolutely right. you want to hug this guy. you want to protect him. you want jesse pinkman to go right off in the sun set. >> and unlike this guy you can see where he's saying --

especially killing of the young kid. i mean, i don't want to be part of this. he never felt that did he or not? or he just accepted it as necessary >> collapse ral damage. unnecessary. >> rose: sorry it happened but -- >> if it's necessary he has to do what he has to do. >> rose: but this guy turns him upside down. where iss where he? >> he's just easily manipulated. walter white knows how to just be the master up here and jesse is just one of his many streams and jesse just -- he doesn't want to accept that this guy he's so close to is that evil. he really doesn't want to accept that, but now we're at a point at the end of last season he knows that he is that evil.

he is -- (laughter) he wants to have nothing to do with him. he wants to stay away from him. >> rose: what fascinated me about that is there are moments in which you writers got yourself in trouble. we've talked about hank is ow side and you don't know how you're going to get out of this and the writers don't know. >> the goal of the writers is to write yourself into a corner. it's always great to be forced into a corner by your characters. and listen to them and talk about them and figure it out and what's so interesting about it is that we have been living with these characters for six years and still to the very last episode we're compromised by reading it. >> rose: oh, my god, we're going there?"

>> you'd think we'd see things coming. it's a wonderful gift. >> there's also the scene where hank is sitting on the toilet and he sees "leaves of grass." just as a moment, since it's already played, why discover that there? >> you -- i guess to subvert expectations is the best answer. >> surprise, surprise, surprise. >> this is a man who is clearly very good at his job. sometimes, you know, i hear anecdotally from certain quarters that hank gets a bad rap for not seeing what's directly under his nose but i say in real life most of us don't see what's under our nose. i wouldn't expect if i found out my brother was a master criminal i would be very surprised indeed. my f my brother patrick was suddenly a bad guy. there's no way he could -- but so as far as this is a man who's very good at his job, hank is and you ask yourself quite often

in the writers room what's the typical way of doing this. the typical way is for it to happen in the squad room or the d.e.a. bullpen or whatever. hey, we've got this fwhfgs, wait a minute, these two pieces line up. just seems to subvert expectations to have it come at a moment where life is good. it looks like there will be a happy ending and with that episode written by the writers, wally becket, there's this prolonged outdoor cookout that they're having in the backyard of the white house, as we call it, by the pool, and it goes on and it seems to be amounting to nothing and you're -- what we hope is that you're at home saying "i know this is the last episode, i'm going to see it for over a year, i'm looking at my watch, it's a happy ending? what kind of ending is this?" and we stretched it out as long as we could, walt goes into the bathroom to -- hank, sgez the bathroom -- >> rose: and he finds walt there. >> exactly.

>> rose: you gave that hint early without it being a hint. did you know when you gave that hint that you would come back to it? had you seen that far and connected that way. >> the book had been mentioned, the book had been mentioned, walt had been asked about it and he said "walt whitman?" and he got away with it when questioned by hank and now the realization. so when you planted that scene early, did you know in episode -- the end of episode four -- year four it would be the thing that set off year five? >> when we first mentioned "leaves of grass" it was a throw away. we had a wonderful character named gail. >> rose: new york actor who came out -- >> excellent actor and i just liked the idea that this character who was walts new meth cooking partner what who was the an technical assistance sis of jesse who knew chemistry inside and out and could quote walt whitman by memory this wonderful

whitman poem that i loved in high school when i heard "the learned i stron her.". and that was a throw away in that episode but then we realized walt whitman, walter white, and it dawned on us a few episodes later that maybe we could make hay from that. make -- construct somethat that would ultimately lead to -- >> and that teed off year five. >> so it's one of those things -- we get credit for playing a deep game and we try to play as deep a game as possible as far as figuring out well in advance where where things are going but i think the thing my writers and i did best was mine our history. in other words go back and say what can we make use of? what eyes can we dot? what "t"s can we doss? and make it look like we had this thing playing at all along making it look like we're got at this when we're good keepers of our own history. >> rose: how has this changed

your life and career? >> i mean, i tell this man -- at least try to tell this man 42 times a day how he gave me a career. i mean, he just opened up so many doors and for six years telling the story and living and breathing and jesse pinkman and just the writing is so perfect and i've just learned sfroch this man. i mean, to be able to work opposite bryan cranston every single day, i've grown so much as an actor and getting kind of emotional right now because once in a lifetime experience and i know i will never experience anything like this again and

it's so rough to say good-bye to it. and it's all downhill from here. (laughter) which is -- and i say that -- >> rose: you can't imagine having this kind of experience. >> i don't say that in a bad way. >> you'd think he'd be able to afford a suit. >> rose: i was wondering about that. >> i was thinking about that this into time. >> rose: you don't think it's a sign of disrespect to me >>? >> i can't speak to that >> i had the nicest suit picked out. >> rose: i was hoping there'd be a nice tie. >> the tie was perfect. >> rose: how did this change? not only in terms of career opportunity but just in the sense of being -- >> everything. it changed my life. it change mid-career. it gave me -- it's like working with -- it's -- i say that acting with brian is like playing tennis with a pro-tennis player. you're -- you hit the ball

across from that and then it comes back a different way every time with a different spin and it makes you better every time. it was a joy to go to work everyday. it was such a joy that it didn't feel like work. it felt like playing with my friends and it felt like making art and honestly doing -- i've done a lot of t.v. and i did another great t.v. show before this that would -- with david mill. but this honestly felt like playing and making art with my friends and it was extraordinary. it's changed me as an actress as well and made me a better actress. because that role was challenging. it was a challenging role and i want to thank you for that challenging role. i thank you because i really admired skyler and i it was

difficult at times for know stick with it. to really understand her myself at times and i'm so happy that i got that challenge and that -- that i had the opportunity. it's done everything for me. >> rose: i actually know what it's done for you. it's made you a magazine cover boy. (laughter) >> "popular mechanics" to "g. >> rose: sum it up for me. some sense of -- everybody knew you had all the things that they are in awe of but a much larger community that to feel over a period of five years what acting is about. >> it's -- you know, you -- i realize i'm embracing this entire experience alack trity and gratitude. alacrity and gratitude.

to be able to have this opportunity to perform at this level with this level of material is a gift that you will never, ever forget in the company of such talented artists as i was fortunate to the work with we knew that we were very lucky and we all knew that -- and to the person that we loved this art form and we loved to perform so we look forward to mondays as opposed to, "oh, here comes another monday." so we look forward to those days we get in and then you can take a bite out of something and that includes the intimacies and the trust tlags is inherent in the work as well and the joy of a scene well played and it's so -- the entire experience is too large to be able to give it its

just due. it's changed all of our lives for the better and we owe it tuul vince gilligan. >> we do. we do. >> oh, go on! (laughter) >> rose: thank you. is thank you. >> thank you. >> rose: great to have you here. august 11 will be the first episode. thank you for joining us. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org