to me is that >> reporter: chiquita tate's vicious killing -- stabbed and slashed dozens of times -- had shaken her friends and family to their very roots. and as an officer of the courts, it was also an attack on baton rouge's criminal justice system family. the heat was on detectives johnson and howard to find the killer. >> you're looking at the poles around here. what was that, chris? >> yeah, the crime cameras. we know that most of baton rouge has crime cameras and there are several locations. and across from the office there is a crime camera right there on the pole. >> we also have the traffic cameras that are on each signal light. >> there are some right there. >> yes, that's correct. >> so you could get really lucky maybe. >> yeah, hopefully. >> and get the perpetrator coming or going.

>> that's correct. >> reporter: this camera, about a block away from chiquita's office, was working fine. it showed a quiet street the night of the killing. normal activity. what they really wanted was the shot from this camera, which swept right pass chiquita's office door. but bad luck. a recent storm had knocked it out. >> the camera in front of the office was not working properly on that particular night. suspect. this wasn't going to be an open-shut solve. but there was evidence to work with. the crime scene technician had taken scrapings from under chiquita's fingernails and sent them off for lab analysis. had she scratched dna material from her killer? they'd have to wait on findings. and likewise the clump of hair found in chiquita's hand. did it contain dna identifying the killer? >> if you're in a fight and -- and pull someone's hair out -- >> yeah. >> you're gonna find root hairs, hair balls. >> reporter: but, the lab work was back on the hair sample. there were no roots on those strands. but the hair had come from a

woman's hair extension or a weave. >> so the scenario that occurs to me is that this is a woman that's in this assault-- >> exactly. >> -- two women are fighting and she's gotten a bit of this weave and yanked it -- >> exactly. >> reporter: the theory of two women in a death struggle didn't make sense to the cops. the attack seemed too violent, too overwhelming. but with homicides, you never know. in the early hours of the investigation though, they did catch a major break. a report had come into dispatch. a woman driving through a high-crime area known as gardere lane called police to say she'd found a wallet. and it belonged to chiquita tate. >> she's driving down gardere lane and she sees the wallet on the side of the road. >> reporter: amazingly enough, the finder of the wallet knew chiquita. the young attorney had given a speech at her daughter's school and made quite an impression. >> that prompted her to call the police and advise us that she -- she located this wallet. >> reporter: and unexpectedly

for a wallet taken from a victim's purse and then tossed, chiquita's id and her credit cards were all inside, which got investigators thinking. maybe the killer planted the wallet there, hoping some street person would find it and stumble right into a homicide investigation. >> when you take a nice gucci wallet, loaded with credit cards, to gardere lane and leave it in the streets, somebody's going to pick it up and start going to the mall, spending some of those credit cards. and the first thing that's going to happen is that the police are going to have a film of the transaction and go to that person and say, "you killed chiquita tate." >> there's our suspect. >> absolutely. >> reporter: so, this killer unknown started taking on some traits in the detectives' minds. the person was good or lucky enough to get out of the office building without leaving a trail of blood, and after what had to have been a frenzied attack, still had the composure to think up the red herring of the tossed

the killer looked like a cool customer. perhaps a professional? as the cops went down the list of dubious characters on her client roster, they looked closely at two men who had been accused of killing a man and his 17-year old son. possible suspects? >> one of 'em actually was in jail at the time of the -- of the homicide and it just was very unlikely that -- that someone who -- who she worked so hard for would kill her. >> reporter: a few of the people on chiquita's client list were incarcerated at the time of her killing. others had alibis. but she also had clients who were free to come and go. did one of them have an appointment? >> was there anybody due to come in that evening? >> no. >> far as you recall -- >> not after -- not after hours. >> after hours? >> no. that would've been very unusual. and i would've known. >> reporter: a mystery client with the worst of grudges? a woman unknown?

play poker with a witness and hit the jackpot when they're only holding a pair of deuces. coming up -- two new clues. a revealing recording and a revealing phone call with a jaw-dropping tip for police. >> this is a voice saying, "i think i know who may have killed chiquita." (laughs) ughh.. that's where all the hair is. manscaping husband? get scrubbing bubbles. kill 99.9% of germs, and destroy dirt and grime.only need scrubbing bubbles disinfecting cleaners for 100% problem solved. we work hard, so you don't have to. sc johnson - a family company. johnson's believes that bath time is more than cleansing. your loving touch stimulates his senses and nurtures his mind. the johnson's scent, lather, and bubbles help enhance the experience.

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>> reporter: there's a concept in police work called "victimology." the detectives probe the backstory of someone's life to understand what made them tick. in chiquita's case they found, for sure, a woman loved, respected, and admired. but they also learned she had a

capital "t" temper. >> she was extremely aggressive. >> to the point of being -- >> and just -- >> irritating or -- >> to some. and to some extent. >> reporter: had she pushed someone too hard or too far? as detectives ran through the evidence, they'd of course been talking to the husband, greg harris, from the start. >> greg, meanwhile, was being very helpful with investigators. he hadn't lawyered up. he was telling them the story of his night -- "here's the keys to my vehicle, take a look." >> yes. >> "if you want to go to the house, check it out." >> yes, absolutely. >> i'm with you. >> reporter: and they conducted those searches because spouses, no matter how cooperative, are always suspects. and what crime scene investigators found when they poured over greg and chiquita's house was, well, at first glance not much. no weapons certainly. no blood-soaked clothes. they took dna swabs and bagged various items for lab analysis. and then in a closet they found a really oddball souvenir. an audio recording made by greg, of him and chiquita engaged in a screaming match. >> you said, "i'm going to leave you with the end tables. i'm leaving you with that sofa.

i'm leaving you with all this because i don't need it." >> you can have it. >> that's what you told me. >> you can have it. >> reporter: this sounded like a couple splitting the sheets, divvying up the household goods. >> oh, that's all i had when you came here? >> yes, it is! >> reporter: denita was aware that her sister, chiquita, was unhappy. but realistically she didn't think her strong-willed sister would ever be happy in a marriage. >> you know in a relationship you have to compromise. i don't think she was willin' to do it. it was her way or no way. >> reporter: denita says her tempestuous sister was always threatening to storm out of the marriage right up to her last day. >> and that morning of february 19th she called me. and she said that, "d, i just can't do the married thing anymore." >> reporter: greg's parents, silver ray harris and joycie henderson, believe the couple had just hit a rough patch. >> i think it had to do with her not bein' home very often. she would take cases that would take her to new orleans and she'd work on cases till late up into the night. >> too much career goin' on for her, huh? >> yeah. and no time for him.

>> reporter: but in the early hours of the investigation, detectives learned the fight recorded at the couple's home wasn't an isolated incident. their files showed that a 911 domestic call brought police to greg and chiquita's house two months before they got married. >> what was that all about? >> police were called out because chiquita accused greg of hitting her. from what we understand, a charge was filed against both of them. >> reporter: with that in mind, when greg sat down with investigators, the conversation became contentious, even combative. >> i loved my wife. we was trying to make this relationship work. >> you were trying to make the relationship work. >> no, we both were. >> reporter: they'd had problems, he admitted, but said he wasn't violent with chiquita. the detectives told greg what they'd picked up on that chiquita was leaving the marriage. wrong, countered the husband. >> she was still living with me. you go to my house and there ain't no clothes packed. >> yeah. >> well, if she was leaving, why did she ask me to come over there and help her? i mean, we're going to the movies, doing everything else. >> reporter: they reviewed

killing. how he brought his wife dinner and left her still working at the office sometime around 8:30. >> where did you go? >> where did i go? i went home. i went straight home. >> straight home? which path did you took home? >> i got on the interstate. >> reporter: that's when police, clearly suspicious of greg, used a ploy to smoke him out, to catch him in a lie. if he were in fact lying. >> according to the cameras, that's not the path which you had taken last night. >> we convinced him that we had cameras up, which we do have cameras up. we convinced him that we can track his cell phone. >> in fact, did you have anything like that? >> no, we did not. we were just bluffing him. >> you know we do phone records? your phone records, her phone records. it tells every tower that you hit when you make your phone calls. >> that's fine. that's fine. >> reporter: and so, with greg thinking the cops knew his every move, they confronted him with an important question about the place where chiquitas wallet had already been found. >> when's the last time you been

on gardier lane? >> gardier lane? i went to gardier lane last night. >> really? >> yes. >> what time did you go to gardier lane? >> i don't know what time it was. >> approximately. >> what's he say he's doing there? >> he said he went to buy steroids. he's a big guy and he lift weights and he said that's where his steroid dealer lived. >> little street transaction. >> right. >> reporter: whatever the explanation, greg harris had put himself in the neighborhood where the wallet had been tossed. for the cops, it was a gotcha moment. and while they had no evidence -- no dna, no forensics that connected him to the killing -- they did have some leverage. that old domestic dispute call. though she and greg were charged, only the charge against chiquita was dropped. >> why are you the only one who had a warrant? >> all of this was supposed to be dismissed. now other than this, i don't know a thing about it.

my life. >> reporter: so, using a year and a half old warrant unrelated to the death of chiquita tate, the police put greg in custody for a few days. >> so they could put him on ice, huh? >> absolutely. while the forensics were being tested from the crime scene. >> reporter: but then, seemingly seemingly out of the blue came a strange tip from an anonymous caller. >> saying, "you need to look into this angle, because i think i know who may have killed chiquita." >> this is a voice on the phone? female voice? >> this is a voice on the phone. and it's like, "you need to look into it. she was involved in a lesbian love triangle." >> reporter: did that explain the clump of hair, the impassioned intimate killing? the investigation was charging off in a wholly new direction. coming up -- >> i knew the two ladies. >> reporter: two new suspects? exactly what would police find? and chiquita's husband greg -- was he in danger? >> someone came up to his bedroom window at about 3:30 in the morning and shoots in the window.

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wait till you see what i've been doing. (laughs) i know, i, it just came to me. manscaping husband? get scrubbing bubbles. kill 99.9% of germs and destroy grime. with scrubbing bubbles for 100% problem solved. covergirl is the easy way to draw attention perfect point liner smudge with sponge-tip to create a smokin' kitten eye lash blast mascara adds an instant blast of volume add a pow to your brow! wow! from easy, breezy, beautiful covergirl >> reporter: just as investigators were zeroing in on the husband greg harris, they got a tip that brought them back to chiquita tate's list of clients. but it wasn't about any of the career criminals on her roster.

the tip concerned two female clients. a same-sex couple that chiquita had been helping with an adoption case. the anonymous caller suggested their lawyer/client relationship was more than that. >> a female said that it was two women that chiquita was -- had a love triangle. she even gave the two suspects name as well. she indicated that one suspect had scratches on -- on their body. >> reporter: well, that would explain the crime of passion, which you'd think is a signature here. >> yes. >> reporter: and also maybe where there's hair in the palm in her hand. >> that's correct. >> reporter: some sort of a tussle. >> yes. >> reporter: that goes a long way towards explaining a lot of it. there's some sort of -- >> yeah, if it's true. >> some sort of a romantic relationship that's gone wrong. >> reporter: police confirmed the names of the two women on chiquita's client list and then paid each a call. >> we had to investigate and contact both individuals and got statements from them. >> reporter: the detectives told the prosecutor that both women insisted chiquita wasn't their lover, just a good attorney. >> we loved her work. she was a friend, but that's where it ended. >> reporter: still, the

detectives took a closer look at the couple. >> we didn't see any scratches on their arms. we also realized one of the suspects had braids and not a weave in her hair. >> reporter: what's more, police say that both women had alibis. legal assistant lessie hookfin was sure the secret love triangle was nonsense. >> owe -- i knew about the adoption. i knew the clients and everything was going well. >> reporter: is there any way you can see that that's somehow >> never. butchered? no, i knew the two ladies. well. >> reporter: but you didn't see any difficulty there or any bad blood or -- >> no, not at all. not at all. >> reporter: so the investigators put the tip in their back files and proceeded to check out the tipster. they traced her call to a town in texas. they even drove there and after questioning a few locals, managed to reach a woman by phone with an oddly familiar voice. >> i immediately recognized her as the voice that i heard that had called the office that time. and i asked her how did she know

chiquita tate. and she said, "well, chiquita tate used to be married to my brother." >> reporter: this was greg harris' sister. >> yes, that's correct. greg harris' sister. >> reporter: so the tip that sent detectives off to texas had led them right back to greg, the husband. was greg or maybe his sister trying to plant a false lead? prem burns added that to her list of concerns about greg harris. she was also discovering that greg had a bad history with some of the women in his life. her investigators found greg had control issues and a temper according to chiquita's family members and some old girlfriends. >> he just wanted them within his eyesight and within his control. >> reporter: she also learned that chiquita had taken out a lease on an apartment. she hadn't yet moved into her new place, but prem burns believes chiquita was indeed going to divorce greg. which meant he had lost control of her. >> and i believe that's what happened with chiquita is that

he was not going to let her. >> reporter: nobody leaves me, huh? >> nobody leaves greg harris, unless greg harris throws them out of the house onto the front lawn. >> reporter: greg's brother mike doesn't believe it for a second. his brother, he says, wasn't violent. and what's more, he says greg and chiquita were working it out. >> we all go through bumps. but you -- there's also a phase called reconciliation and healing, you know. and that's what they had. >> reporter: and as for that tip about the same-sex couple, greg's father silver ray says his daughter wasn't trying to throw off the cops. the female love triangle was a legitimate concern of his. >> she got that strictly from me, which i got it from another attorney. and we just wanted to look at all the options to make sure that all the bases were covered. we wanted to look at these two women. >> reporter: did you encourage her to call the cops? >> i didn't. >> reporter: with the story? >> encourage her. she did it on her own. but it was -- it wasn't nothing

to look at all the angles. >> announcer: in fact, greg's father and mother joycie and brother mike say they couldn't believe that police even suspected greg. not the greg they knew. >> my greg was a son that helped raise his brothers. he made sure that they were fed when i worked. he made sure when they came home they did their homework. >> you have people you want to grow up to be like. my model was my older brother. i wouldn't be the person i am today if it wasn't for him. >> reporter: even chiquita's sister could not imagine greg as the killer. can you see him in that office? >> no. >> reporter: in a rage slashing your sister? >> no. >> reporter: fight that's moving from here to there? >> no. i can't even picture it. >> reporter: greg's parents and his brother believe that whoever killed chiquita, also wanted greg dead. they recount an incident that happened after greg was released from custody. shots were fired into his home. >> someone came up to his bedroom window at about 3:40 in the morning and shoots in the bedroom window five times with a

.10 millimeter gun. >> reporter: oh. >> hoping that he was in the bed. it just so happened greg fell asleep on the sofa. god saved him. he was not in the bed. >> reporter: greg's family, convinced he was innocent, became only more so when they heard this. scrapings from under chiquita's nails showed dna not only from greg but from someone else as well. an unknown male. what could that mean? coming up -- >> if greg harris had done this, you would have found an enormous amount of blood. that just wasn't the case. >> another dna surprise is

from the jury too. >> reporter: the case against him -- greg harris was the last person known to have seen chiquita alive. his marriage to chiquita had been volatile. and he put himself near the street where chiquita's stolen wallet was tossed.

but what galvanized this case for the prosecutor was a pair of sunglasses discovered in greg harris' car. >> the glasses are under the seat. >> reporter: is there blood evidence on them? >> there absolutely was. there was a combination of his blood and her blood on the left lens. when i was told that that is their blood mixed on the left lens and the right arm of those glasses, i said "i don't need anything more." >> reporter: on march 16th, 2009, greg harris was charged with second-degree murder. he went on trial two years after chiquita's death in march of 2011. the prosecution set out to prove that greg killed chiquita because she was going to leave him. former girlfriends testified that greg had a jekyll and hyde personality. sweet when he was courting, volatile and controlling once he won them over. >> he would hit them. he would fight with these girls.

them, he was fine. >> reporter: prosecutors played the 911 tape from that domestic abuse call. while both chiquita and greg were charged, the call didn't sound as though they were locked in a fair fight. >> he grabbed my finger and he -- ring. i threw it at him. and then he -- and then he choked me, and i couldn't move. >> reporter: and the prosecution argued greg had another motive -- money. >> the night the murder happened, he called his boss and said, "i need to get an advance or a loan on my 401k." and his boss said, "you know, i can't do it. i'm sorry, greg." >> reporter: but as prem burns told the jury, greg could get about $60,000 in insurance if chiquita were to die. >> i think money was motivation but more so i think chiquita had planned to leave greg and that's one thing greg could not accept. >> reporter: the prosecution told the jury greg may have been angry, but he was also cool and

calculating, planning both the crime and a cover-up. case in point -- those long hairs that suggested a female killer. the state argued greg brought the hair to the crime scene and then planted it. >> her hand was not, like, clenching it, as if she died that way. it was actually strewn, as if somebody had taken it and just weaved it through her hand. >> reporter: it was a ploy, said the prosecution, designed to throw off the cops. just like the tossed and found wallet from gardere lane, where greg eventually admitted he went the night of the killing. >> gardere lane? i went to gardere lane last night. >> reporter: misdirection, according to the prosecutor, was greg's m.o. she even suspects he fired those shots into his own bedroom to make it look as though the killer was still at large. >> it was kind of like, "gee, let me call and say that there's a lesbian love triangle. let me plant the hair. it's like, "let me just go one step further."

>> reporter: and of course, there was the blood evidence. prosecutors presented more than the blood-stained glasses. a lab analysis revealed there were dots of blood throughout greg and chiquita's house. there was a significant bloodstain on a clorox bottle. >> the clorox bottle was out up on the sink and it had blood visible to the eyes. >> reporter: prosecutors say that stain contained chiquita's and greg's dna. >> reporter: what makes sense to you? >> what makes sense to me is that greg harris had no reason to want to kill chiquita tate. zero whatsoever. >> reporter: lance unglesby was on the defense team, and he argued there wasn't nearly enough evidence to convict greg harris. nothing put him at the site of the killing, the alleged motive was weak, and the blood evidence paltry. >> our theory was very clear. if greg harris had done this, you would've found an enormous amount of blood in that mercedes and on his clothes and at the house in baker. and that just wasn't the case. >> reporter: lance, out at the house there, very curious about

this clorox bottle, where again they think they see comingled blood on -- what about that? that's a problem for you. >> well, practically it's not a problem. in the normal course of living a little blood on a clorox bottle is really not that big a deal. chiquita lived there. of course her dna would be on that bottle. >> reporter: as for the hair that the prosecution said was planted? the defense argued that was just an unproven theory. those two female clients may not have been involved -- but the long strands suggest another woman may have been there. >> it suggested that a female had maybe killed her and that in the middle of the fight she'd pulled the hair out. between that and the amount of cleanup, that would have been required, we always believe two people were involved in this murder. >> reporter: and as for that visit to gardere lane? the defense lawyers say greg was reluctant to admit it, but not because he had tossed the wallet. >> well, because he was buying steroids. he was discussing buying

steroids, which is illegal. >> reporter: kill her for the insurance? the defense said, "no way." >> he had too much goin' for him. we did not buy into the prosecutor's theory that he would do it because he was in -- had some financial stress. we didn't buy into that for a minute. >> reporter: the defense argued cops didn't look hard enough at the list of scary clients who may have wanted chiquita dead. and that unknown male dna under her fingernails? the source, still unknown. >> we believe there was just more to this than was presented to the jury. >> reporter: the trial lasted 16 days. and then the jurors were given their instructions. after listening to the evidence, denita was torn. and she remembers how she felt when, after three and a half hours of deliberation, the jury announced it had a verdict. >> reporter: now, take me right through your mind and your stomach as you're walkin' back into the courtroom. >> shakin' badly. barely could stand on my feet. we holdin' hands, walkin' back in there. >> reporter: did they see greg as a stone killer capable of premeditated murder? or an innocent, grieving husband? the answer is, neither.

guilty of manslaughter, a lesser charge which the judge allowed them to consider. the prosecutor was flabbergasted. >> i -- i just about passed out and so did the defense attorney. nobody argued manslaughter. >> reporter: she wanted to know why the jury rejected her argument of premeditated murder. >> i went back and talked to the jury. and they said, "well, you know what we think? we think something just went on up there that got out of hand." >> reporter: the judge had a lot of latitude in imposing the sentence. manslaughter could carry anywhere from a few months to 40 years. a lesser conviction of a lesser charge, but the judge threw the metaphorical book at him. >> she did. >> reporter: forty years without the possibility of parole. >> correct. >> reporter: the maximum sentence. greg harris has a new lawyer who's trying to get his conviction reversed, saying the judge should never have presided. before trial, judge trudy white disclosed that she knew the victim and that chiquita had been her law clerk. the defense didn't object. should you have gotten her

recused? >> absolutely not. >> reporter: was that -- was that a trial error? >> no, not whatsoever. no, she was a very fair judge. >> reporter: but greg's new lawyer, rick gallot, says the judge did not disclose everything about their relationship. >> we discovered that chiquita, the -- the victim had actually represented judge white in a civil lawsuit. >> reporter: judge white did not respond to our request for a comment. the new lawyer also says the harris family has received letters since the trial claiming someone else killed chiquita because she knew too much about something. but the cops will tell you that every lead they chased down brought them back to one man, someone who robbed a family of its shining young star. so it's been years now, lessie. do you -- do you miss her? >> oh, i miss her so much. everything. her good moods, her bad moods, her good days, her bad days, i miss it all. >> reporter: baton rouge. the river rolls on.

but without that fiery young lawyer who'd come so far so fast. >> that's all for now. i'm lester holt. thanks for joining us. how safe are we at home? we'll talk to the experts including homeland security chief jeh johnson and former defense secretary and head of the cia leon panetta on what needs to be done. plus, a bad week for american leadership. president obama sounds defensive. >> i don't know what more you want me to add. while the republicans go over the top on refugees. >> i would encourage you mr. president, come back and insult me to my face. >> i want to surveil. i want surveillance of these people that are coming in. >> how will the isis threat and the politics of fear impact the 2016 campaign? also, syrian refugees and america.

slow the process or is this just islamophobia? joining me for insight and analysis are tom brokaw of nbc news, kathleen parker of the "washington post," colleen cooper of the "new york times" and ron fornier of the "national journal." welcome to sunday and a special edition of "meet the press." good sunday morning. the belgian capital, brussels, remains in lockdown with soldiers on the streets amid fears of an imminent isis attack. police in that city are also searching door to door for one of the paris attackers who is believed to be hiding somewhere in the brussels area. meanwhile, overnight in malaysia president obama struck a different tone than he did earlier this week and he addressed americans' fears about terror specifically. >> the most powerful tool we

that we're not afraid. to not elevate them. that somehow buy into their fantasy that they're doing something important. they're a bunch of killers. >> this morning we'll look at the isis threat from all the angles. how do we build an international coalition against isis? does the u.s. strategy in the region have to change? and if so, how? how serious is the threat of isis to us here in the united states? how do we remain safe while not giving into islamophobia? and how will all of this impact the campaign for the white house in 2016. we have the top names on all those issues with us this morning. we'll begin with efforts to keep america safe. this morning in new york city, a counterterror exercise took place and right now you've seen simulating how the authorities would deal with an active

york city subway. joining me from this exercise is the head of 2 department of homeland security jeh johnson and, no police chief bill bratton. gentlemen, welcome back to "meet the press" for both of you. >> good morning, chuck. >> good morning. secretary johnson, let me start with you. there's a lot of chatter, a lot of unsubstantiated threats including one in atlanta having to do with a wrestling event tonight. what can you tell the american public about any specific threats out there and how concerned are you? >> chuck, let me reiterate what the fbi director and i have said before. we have no specific credible intelligence about a threat of the paris type directed at the homeland here. we are always concerned about potential copycat acts, home born, homegrown, violent extremism of the type that we've

seen in recent months and years and so the exercise today is reflective of where we think we need to be and so this is also something supported by the department of homeland security through our grant making activity and so we want the american public to know that we're on the job, we're vigilant and we're continually re-evaluating our security posture. >> mr. secretary, what can you tell me about brussels? the fact that the threat was so imminent that they shut down the subway system, the u.s. embassy said shelter in place. i assume there's been some intelligence sharing here. how serious is that brussels threat and how concerning is that that it's somehow related to something that might happen here? >> we're continually in touch with law enforcement p intelligence authorities in western europe and brussels and in paris and elsewhere and we monitor these things.

as i said, we're concerned about potential copycat acts, things of that nature, and that's why we're out here today. we're continuing to be vigilant. we're continuing to monitor, re-evaluate. there's also a role for the public to play, too, chuck, this was in you see something, say something. that's got to be more than a slogan. but in general with this holiday season coming up, we want the public to continue to go to public events, celebrate the holiday season, travel, be with their families and the like and to know that law enforcement, our intelligence community, our national security officials are on the job overtime. >> mr. bratton, you just completed it was an active shooter exercise of mass transit and the new york subway system. when you look at what happened in paris and, frankly, how inexpensive that operation may have actually been and that it was sort of a complicated cell but one that didn't use a lot of

make you change any tactics? are you trying new things based on what you learned from paris? >> well, what we're doing here today, the video that you just showed of the exercise we're engaged in, this is part of a continuing series of exercises. this was planned before the paris event but it has person is paris elements involved in it, including a scenario where a individual with a suicide vest. what we're doing here today in conjunction with homeland security is testing out new technology, ballistics detection, video technology, communications technology, and building into it some of what we've learned from paris. beginning back with the mumbai attacks many years ago, american policing and homeland security and federal agencies have constantly been adjusting with everything we learned from these events, paris, mali,l bali, we're building all of that into the

exercises going forward. one of the most prominent events taking place is the macy's thanksgiving day parade. commissioner, what extra steps are you taking? >> well, we're fortunate that over the past year mayor de blasio here in new york has funded us to the extent that we now have about a thousand more officers that will be focused on counterterrorism and crowd management. we have a new response group, 800 officers. we have a new critical response command, over 500 officers. they will be out at that parade. for a change we'll have great weather, low wind, the balloons will be up. we're expecting about three million people to be in new york city for that event. it's going to be a great event and it will be a safe and secure event. >> secretary johnson, we've had a heated debate about the syrian refugee issue, but there talking with law enforcement officials, you hear that if congress did anything, you'd like them focus on the visa waiver issue. explain.

operative to get into this country to get a visa than it is for the refugee process? >> chuck, the reality is that something like only 2,100 syrian refugees have been resettled in this country through a very extensive vetting process that takes something like 18 to 24 months. the visa waiver program is something that we've been focused on, frankly, since i've been secretary because there are a number of foreign terrorist fighters who have gone into iraq and syria from countries in europe and elsewhere and so last year we enhanced the security of the visa waiver program. this is a program where people in certain countries can come here without a visa. and we've been focused on enhancing the security of that. i ordered enhancements late last

congress also is focused on this and i think that there are ways that congress -- >> should we eliminate the waiver program for a while? >> i would not do that at all. the visa waiver program is very, very important to lawful trade, travel, commerce, a very popular program that people use virtually everyday. but there are security enhancements that we have made and we should evaluate whether more is necessary and i'm happy to have that conversation with our friends in congress. they're interested in this, too. >> commissioner bratton, i want to ask you to react to something else. washington, d.c. police chief kathy lanier on "60 minutes" tonight is going to make a recommendation that in an active shooter situation if somebody can take the gunman out -- either with a weapon or any other way -- she actually recommends that you do that because police can't get there in time, the 9/11 call can't get

there in time. in an active shooter situation more victims are going die in the first ten minutes before law enforcement gets there. i've not heard that from a law enforcement official before. what do you make of that recommendation? >> there's nothing new about that, that if somebody is armed in one of those scenarios and has the potential. but the reality is somebody with a handgun up against somebody with an ak-47 is going to be outgunned and is putting themselves in serious risk. but at the same time, if the scenario allows for that, then certainly we would support that. but i'd like to go back to one of the earlier comments about congress. congress really wants to do something instead of just talking about something, help us out with that terrorist watch list, those thousands of people that can purchase firearms in this country. i'm more worried about them than i am about syrian refugees to be quite frank with you. so if congress wants to do something to help the law enforcement community and the

american public, let's start getting serious about doing something that they can actually do something about. >> commissioner bratton, secretary johnson, thank you for joining me very briefly this morning. >> thank you, glad to be here. >> thank you. now to the key diplomatic problem. although there seems to be global consensus that isis needs to be wiped out, why is it so hard to build a coalition to do just that? our chief foreign correspondent richard engel has been looking into angle to answer that question. >> reporter: the day the french now call black friday was isis' terrifying breakout moment. the moment the world realized that the group is a global threat. it's a level of sophistication that took the obama administration by surprise. >> well, i think there was a widespread belief that it was just another violent jihadist group. and that these groups were brutal and because of their brutality they failed. >> isis turns out to be the most

successful terrorist organization in recent history. francois heisberg says security forces are struggling to keep up with the group he calls by the arab name daesh. >> we have yet to build up a skill base and a number of people need it to keep track of an organization as professional and as competent as daesh. daesh leaves al qaeda until the dust. >> reporter: but after claiming responsibility for the russian plane, the beirut bombings and now paris, isis has put itself in almost everyone's cross hairs. france intensified its bombing of the isis capital raqqah and moved an eric carrier into the region. russia is attacking isis, launching more cruise missiles, president obama promised to punish the group relentlessly.

washington has been attacking isis for over a year and iran and hezbollah have been at it longer than that. why can't so many powerful nations and groups beat a terrorist army? one reason is obvious -- critics say there's no coordination and no war can be won without a plan. but what's worse, there are rivalries over the future of the land isis currently occupies, especially in the middle east. >> saudi arabia and many of the united states' other allies don't like the islamic state but its destruction is not their top priority, it's third or fourth down the list. turkey, for example, is more worried about the kurds establishing their own state. saudi arabia is more worried about iran and so on down the list. there are very few countries who share the united states' desire to destroy the islamic state as a first order priority. >> reporter: many are wondering whether what happened in paris

world into finding some sort of consensus, or will it take yet another terrorist massacre to do that? and isis is now threatening attacks in the united states. >> richard edge untilngel in turkey. thank you very much. i'm now joined by leon panetta. he served as secretary of defense and director of the cia under president obama. secretary panetta, nice to see you, sir. let me ask with a very simple question -- is the president's current strategy against isis working? >> well, obviously there's a lot of concern about whether or not we've deployed the resources to be able to accomplish the mission that the president described. i think the mission that he said is the right mission, which is to disrupt, dismantle, and destroy isis. that's the right mission. but i think that the resources applied to that mission,

sufficient to confront that. and faror that reason we have to be muffin morech more aggressive and unified to take on isis. >> in politico, one of the former counterterrorism advisors to president obama and president bush wrote this "by any measure our strategy in iraq and syria is not succeeding or not succeeding fast enough. we are playing a more long game when a disruptive strategy is required." basically the argument is maybe this strategy is correct but the speed with which it's being implemented is what's wrong. do you buy that argument? >> well, i think he makes some very good points. look, if we're going to confront isis, you know, clearly we've been through acts of war these last few weeks that make it very clear that they are a clear and present danger not only to europe but to this country as well. and we're going to have to take some very specific steps here.

one is to unify this effort. as richard engel pointed out, this effort is not coordinated. people are not working together. everybody's kind of doing their own thing on different targets. we need to unify the command. we need to set a joint command center where all of these countries are together on their objective and secondly we need to increase our effort there. we need to increase the tempo of our air strikes. we need to organize ground forces, particularly the sunnis and the kurds and arm them so that they can take territory back from isis. and, frankly, we are need to increase special forces and our intelligence advisors not only to guide these forces but to go with them in order to ensure that we are successful in this effort. >> you know, you were not shy about criticizing the president and the strategy on syria. i'm curious. do you think we'd be in a different place today if you criticized there was a failure to push the iraqi government to allow a residual force to remain in iraq?

the decision not to arm syrian rebels in 2012 and the failure to follow through against assad when the president said he crossed the red line. taken together, if any one thing had changed there, would we be in a different place today, mr. secretary? >> chuck, that's really hard to say because of the chaos that we're seeing in syria. we've gotten a awful lot of people that bear some responsibility there, including the united states. assad is probably the primary villain for what's going on if syria. iran bears some responsibility for injecting themselves into the civil war. hezbollah is there. we've got a number of opposing forces. a lot of extremists that are part of those opposing forces in syria. the problem with maliki who basically threw the sunnis not only out of the government but out of the military, added fuel to the development of isis and i

virtue of not getting involved sooner in trying to establish some kind of moderate force there, i think all of those are factors that have contributed to the situation that we're facing now. >> all right, our panel is also here with me, my colleague tom brokaw of nbc news, kathleen parker of the "washington post," helene cooper of the "new york times" and ron foreignier ierfornier of the "national journal." tom, i know you wanted to ask the secretary a question. >> i've been talking to national security experts and they've been saying the same thing. the president up to this point has been, to put it kindly, the commander in chief but not very commanding and there's a great deal of concern that on the other side, on the republican side, there's too much loose talk about putting thousands of american troops on the ground there, suggesting that the americans can get involved in a ground war. what specifically should be the role of the united states on the ground in that part of the world

>> well, tom, first and foremost i think the u.s. has to lead in this effort because what we've learned a long time ago is that the united states does not lead nobody else will. so the united states has to provide stronger leadership in trying to unify the forces that are there. in addition to that i think it's very clear that we are going to have to commit additional resources to this effort. we've got to have -- we've got to speed up our air strikes. air strikes are great, we're hitting some targets, but air strikes alone are not going to win here. what isis has achieved is the ability to gain territory. and it's that territory, it's the caliphate where they're designing their ability to kind of now do outreach and attack other countries. we've got to take that territory away from them. the it's been a year. they're still mosul. they're still in ramadi.

they're still in raqqah. those are the areas we have to go after in order to be able to defeat isis ultimately. we've got to take the territory back and we've got to make sure that other countries are part of the effort to try to deal with isis. all of those steps need to be taken. >> on that specific front, actually, on territory, helene, you had a specific question on that front. >> i do. but i'm also curious, mr. secretary. you're talking right now about unifying the command and unifying the anti-isis effort. given that two of the major players -- three of the major players on that field are the united states, russia, and iran -- and these are not three countries that actually get along, they're very much adversarial -- how exactly do you propose we unify this command and unify this effort? do you envision iranian and russian forces being under an american command? how does this work? >> no, not really, because i think, you know, it would be nice to have the russians be

part of that but i'm not sure they will and i don't think iran would as well. my focus would be to have nato countries. i'm surprised they haven't invoked article v of the nato charter. we invoked article v after 9/11, they should certainly do it now and be able to get nato and its military forces engaged in that effort. secondly, we need the arab countries, the moderate arab countries, saudi arabia, uae, jordan and others to be part of that effort. we've got to focus on that effort because that's doable. when we went into libya we had over 50 nations that were part of that effort. we had a joint command center at naples. that's the effort we need to put together and focus on our objectives and what we're trying to achieve. russia, obviously it would be nice to have them as part of that effort but, frankly, i

at this time and i certainly don't trust iran to be part of that effort as well. we've got to focus on our allies and the countries that work with uso try to achieve the mission that we need to go after. >> and very quickly secretary panetta, would you somehow prioritize isis over assad at this point or do they have to be pursued simultaneously? >> i think we've got to go after both of them. i don't think we can suddenly say assad -- you know, we shouldn't pay attention to him because assad is an international criminal and we should not be part of an effort to allow assad to stay in place. but our priority here, our main focus now, ought to be in going after isis and making sure we defeat them. they're the clear and present danger. they're the ones we have to defeat if we're going to be successful at protecting the american people. >> secretary panetta, former director of the cia, always good to hear your wisdom on this, thanks for joining me this morning. >> thank you.