walked into a wall. >> reporter: but just one day after tom foley's conviction, a woman stepped forward. she had new information that suddenly gave new life to tom's defense. >> she came forward and said, "i saw this white car storming out of the driveway, almost hit me." "it looked like somebody was either high or running away from something." >> reporter: the woman was certain the driver was coming out of the heath bar farm right around the time dar was murdered, and she was equally certain the driver looked nothing like tom foley. >> there's the killer right there. she saw him, the person leaving our property. >> reporter: and then like a dam breaking, two other witnesses came forward, each having seen a mysterious car of their own, either parked on the foley property or speeding away from it. all the sightings were within two hours of dar's murder. >> i mean, it was just like one

"what is going on? where were these people before?" >> reporter: the judge who was about to sentence tom foley to life wanted to hear what these new witnesses had to say. and after a year of appeals that went all the way to the state supreme court, tom foley was granted something most people convicted of murder never receive, a second chance. >> i was walking through the chow hall in prison, and somebody says, "hey, tom, i saw you on the news." i said, "really, what for?" "well, they gave you a new trial." >> i said, "what?" trial didn't change the minds of dar's family. they remained convinced, not only did tom kill dar, he did so on the day of his son's tenth birthday celebration. >> you think tom's cold blooded enough to do something like that to his kid? >> yes. >> i think there's evil in him. >> reporter: prosecutor terri norris agreed. >> who killed dar foley?

there is nobody else. >> reporter: a year and a half after tom foley's conviction both sides filed back into the courthouse to once again determine tom's fate. >> circuit court is again in session. >> thank you. >> reporter: as before, the state opened its case with crime scene analysts. >> what is it that you found in the basement? >> i found a yellow dunham's bag and located inside the dunham's bag were three shotgun shells. these are phone records. >> reporter: norris also showed the jury the foleys' home phone records from around the time dar >> there were no calls that either came in or left. >> your wife doesn't show up somewhere, why not call home and say, you know, "have you left yet? where are you? we're waiting for you." >> that's what i'd do. >> reporter: according to detective karbon, tom didn't bother calling dar at home because he knew dar was already dead. then, members of dar's family stepped forward to testify that tom and dar's marriage was

out. >> he told me that his wife is very controlling and that it was wearing on him, and he did not necessarily want to stay in the marriage anymore. >> reporter: and there was more evidence of an unhappy marriage. according to this woman, back in 2006, tom had a wandering eye. >> please state your full name for the record and spell your last name. >> carolyn zuck. >> reporter: carey zuck taught at the same elementary school as dar, who was known at school as "dee dee." that's how carey met tom. >> he told me that he was thinking about leaving dee dee. >> reporter: according to carey, tom also revealed he had feelings for her, and later he tried to kiss her. >> and what was your reaction to that? >> i didn't want anything to do with it. >> reporter: the prosecution wasn't done. this woman took the stand. >> please state your full name

last name. >> marion victoria crandall. >> reporter: out of the presence of the jury, marion crandall told the court that, like carey zuck, she met tom through dar, and a couple of weeks after dar's murder, marion stopped by the farm to offer tom support. >> i don't mean to embarrass you but you had sex with tom in his living room? >> he tried to, and it was stopped. >> all right. who tried and who stopped? >> he tried, and we both stopped. >> you don't have a sexual relationship with somebody within two weeks after your wife's been murdered in that house. >> reporter: but the jury never heard marion crandall's testimony because there was no indication of a romantic relationship prior to dar's murder. the judge ruled, just as he did in the first trial, that her testimony was prejudicial and, therefore, inadmissible. it was a huge blow to the prosecution's case.

they weren't this deeply in love couple that he kept trying to present. that would have proven that. >> reporter: but norris still had her two key witnesses, tom's own son heath and heath's friend sklyar wattie. both two years older and now more certain than ever about what they saw and heard the day dar was killed. >> last year at church camp for one of our activities, we fired shotguns, and it most resembled that sound. >> reporter: then it was time for heath to take the stand. the last time tom had seen his boy was at a hearing, also in court almost a year earlier. >> while you're in the barn, do you hear something? >> yes, i thought it was maybe skylar kinda ran into a wall. either that or a gunshot. >> you think the boys actually were, if not eye witnesses, then ear witnesses. >> ear witnesses to what happened. >> -- to a murder? >> yes.

that if he had any hope of getting tom foley acquitted, he'd need to prove the sound those boys heard was anything other than a gunshot. just two weeks before trial began, while inspecting crime scene photos, schaeffer found what may be the key to his client's freedom. >> and i says, "ken, is that what i think it is?" >> it was one of these, "holy crap!" >> it was, to us, just a perry mason moment. coming up -- >> we were together all the time. >> reporter: tom foley on the stand with his own fate on the line. >> i wanted to convince the police. i wanted to advice my wife's family. >> could he? when "dateline" continues. olay regenerist rrenews from within, plumping surface cells for a dramatic transformation without the need for fillers

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lo mein, szechwan chicken, chopsticks, soy sauce and you got some fortune cookies. have a good one. ah, these small new york apartments... protect your belongings. let geico help you with renters insurance. the defense began presenting its case in hopes of convincing the jury that foley is innocent. >> reporter: midway thru tom foley's trial, the talk around coldwater focused on the damaging testimony of skylar wattie and tom's own son heath. >> what do you think was the strongest part of your case? >> the boys. the testimony of the boys. they heard the gunshot. >> reporter: but the defense was about to argue that over time, both boys' testimony had changed, and in significant ways. >> heath is now stating that it

say in the first interview, the same thing with skylar. >> reporter: heath's courtroom testimony left tom furious, not at his son but at his accusers, the people who had cared for heath while tom was incarcerated. >> that's somebody coaching him or encouraging him? >> i believe so. >> coached or not, tom foley's defense team knew from day one they needed to prove the sound those boys heard was tom dropping a window pane on the back steps, and not the fatal gun blast. four days after tom foley's arrest schaeffer and koberstein took a trip to the farm to try and do just that. >> a couple of perry mason moments don't come very often. >> this is the frame that we found. >> reporter: right where tom said he dropped the frame, they found this tiny shard of glass. immediately they tried to match the shard with the frame tom said he dropped. >> if you take the shard and set

intact puttied areas of the frame, you can see it fits perfectly. >> reporter: it was compelling evidence that tom may have been telling the truth, but schaeffer would need more than just a shard of evidence. he next called this woman, jeanette moor, the woman who came forward immediately following tom's guilty verdict and the reason he was ultimately granted a new trial. moor said she was driving past the foley house right around the time dar had been murdered. >> as i approached, this white car come racing out forward, and if i hadn't have braked, i would have hit him. >> reporter: jeanette moor said she got a good look at the driver. >> it was a young 18 to 20-year-old kid, had real black hair, and his face was real white, and he was clutchin' the wheel just like this. and i thought, he's crazy. he's gonna kill somebody!" >> why didn't you call the police? >> i didn't because i was afraid.

moor learned about tom foley's guilty verdict, she said she could no longer keep her silence. >> god forgive me, and i truly mean that in my heart, that i didn't come forward sooner. if i hadn't have been so darned scared. >> reporter: what followed was a succession of other witnesses, ing they too saw mysterious cars, either on or leaving the heath bar farm right around the time of the murder. >> whoever killed dar foley was either in one of those cars or all of three of them participated in this murder in some fashion. >> reporter: but tom foley knew if he had any hope of acquittal, the jury would need to hear from one more witness. >> i call tom foley to the stand your honor. >> i just didn't want to convince the 12 jurors. i wanted to convince the prosecutor. i wanted to convince the police. i wanted to convince my wife's family.

at me and hear me. >> reporter: tom started by answering some still nagging questions like how did a yellow plastic bag with shotgun shells in it get into tom's basement. >> did you have dunham's bags in your home? >> yes. >> how do you explain the bag in the basement with the shotgun shells in it? >> they weren't ours. that bag is probably ours. i mean, my fingerprint's on the bag. but for three clean shotgun shells to be in my basement just doesn't make sense. >> you have no idea where those came from? >> absolutely not. >> reporter: tom said he's never owned or used a shotgun. >> never. wouldn't know how to operate it. wouldn't know the first thing about it. >> reporter: tom schaeffer then asked why tom failed to call his home when dar didn't show up at the birthday celebration? >> something just wasn't right. so that's why i went home. >> if we had cell phones, i would have called her on the cell phone. i had to find her. i had to go and see where she was at. >> reporter: then it was time

relationship with dar. it didn't take tom long to lose his composure. >> we were very close. and we were -- >> go ahead. >> we were together all the time. >> reporter: tom admitted to the jury he did once flirt with carey zuck, but he says that happened three years prior to the murder during a brief time when he and dar were arguing more than they were communicating. >> that put quite a bit of distance between us, and it also her and i. >> reporter: tom says he eventually told dar about his feelings for carey. he also says he went to counseling to work on their communication problems. >> after those sessions, did things get better?

so easy for tom to become intimate with marion crandall so soon after dar's death? >> this is like three weeks after dar died. >> yes. >> and you're in the house where dar died? >> yeah. >> what am i to think of that? >> think that i don't care about what had just happened to my wife. that's not true. if i could go back and change it, i would. but i can't. >> this was an event that involved grief and a reaching out, and it happened. >> do you love your wife? >> i love her very much. >> did you love her on february 7th, 2009? >> very much so. >> did you have anything to do with her death? >> not at all. >> reporter: before closing arguments, the prosecutor had one more card to play in the form of a surprise rebuttal

alibi. >> please state your full name for the record. >> amber rapelje. >> reporter: out of the presence of the jury, dar's niece told the court that one week before dar was murdered, she went to the farm to baby-sit heath. >> she told us not to go out in the back porch without shoes because tom had dropped a frame and there might be still some glass out there. >> reporter: but the judge ruled that amber's testimony was hearsay and therefore inadmissible. the jury never heard her challenge tom's claim that what the boys heard the day dar was murdered was him dropping a window frame. >> reporter: now, with the evidence that was admitted, and for the second time in two years, a jury was about to decide tom foley's fate. >> my stomach was turning. i wasn't eating. i was physically sick. >> coming up -- another verdict brings another

wept for 20 minutes. >> as he did in the first trial, attorney tom schaeffer prepared to address the jury for what he and his client, tom foley, hoped would be the last time. >> when your defense rested, were you comfortable? >> yes. >> you thought you were going to win? >> very much. yep. >> you thought that once before? >> yes, i did. >> apparently, the theory of the prosecution is if a marriage ever has a bump in the road, then that is a motive for murder. is it reasonable? i suggest not. >> reporter: tom foley, he says, had nothing to do with dar's death, but those mysterious cars did. >> those cars should not have been there.

given you any explanation why they were there because there is no other explanation other than that they had some connection with the death of dar foley. ladies and gentleman of the jury, i submit to you there's more than reasonable doubt. i respectfully ask you to find tom foley "not guilty." >> reporter: then came prosecutor terri norris' turn, and she started by attacking the credibiity of those witnesses who say they saw the cars. >> if you were to believe that all of these vehicles were there, there was a party at the foley home that day with a -- with a bunch of white cars and a black suv. that makes no sense whatsoever, none. >> reporter: terri norris wanted this jury thinking only one thing. >> who had the motive? it's tom foley. whose fingerprints were on the bag of shells in the basement? tom foley. >> tom foley is "guilty" and i'm

verdict. >> reporter: the outcome of tom's second trial was far from certain. >> what worried you the most? >> just that he was such a nice guy that you would have never guessed that he would've done something like this. >> he didn't seem like a murderer. >> right. >> reporter: and then at the fabled eleventh hour, it was time. the jury filed in. were they looking at you? the jurors? >> no, they weren't. i took a couple of deep breaths. and i just -- >> your honor, we the jury find the defendant not guilty. >> the waiting had -- it had paid off. >> as to count two, not guilty. >> the reaction of tom at the time of the verdict. absolutely incredible. he collapsed to the floor and wept for twenty minutes. unbelievable. >> he got away with murder, but he almost didn't. >> we had it.

actually have to go back and talk with that family and give them some consoling, how do you do that? >> you're just angry, and you're angry at the jurors, the judge, and there's nothing you can do about it. >> i was more concerned about heath at that point, because i knew that he knew his father killed his mother, and i couldn't imagine having to go back and live with the man that killed your mother. >> yeah, get it. >> reporter: tom has regained custody of heath. and he treads very carefully when discussing that tragic day with his boy. >> from him i at least want to know, 'why do you think i did this?' i deserve that answer. and all he could say is, "i don't know who else it could

never forget dar. >> i still think she's beside me. i'm going to continue to raise our son the way that we wanted him to be raised. >> do you harbor any grudge because of this? >> all i can say is they made a mistake, and that's all i am asking is that they search and search and search until they find dee dee's killer. >> reporter: according to prosecutor norris, there would be no point to that search. you're not investigating anymore? >> there's no one to investigate. and there's been no new evidence of anybody else ever having committed this crime. >> reporter: this boyhood hero wrote a whole new set of headlines as an adult, and coldwater may never be the same. as for those who remain convinced of tom's guilt, they cling to the memory of the one they lost and loved so much. >> are you ready? >> reporter: they gathered to release balloons in dar's honor. >> she loved to be the center of attention.

attention. >> two, one. >> they rise closer to where she is at, and hopefully she sees that we're thinking about her. >> we love you, dar. >> that's all for now. i'm lester holt. thanks for joining us. this sunday, donald trump is still leaping ahead and nothing he says seems to slow him down. >> i know where she went. it's disgusting. i don't want to talk about it. >> will 2016 will the year the plit lolitical establishment gets toppled? i'll be joined by bernie sanders, another outsider who upset the old political order. also, the commander-in-chief test.

on a scale not seen since 9/11, which candidate is best qualified to keep us safe at home and abroad. and film director spike lee on america's gun culture. >> why are we okay with that 88 americans die everyday from gun violence? why are we okay with that? joining me for insight and analysis are matt bai of yahoo! news, helene cooper of the "new york times," amy walter of the cook political report, and michael gerson of the "washington post." welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." good sunday morning, i'm andrea mitchell in for chuck todd who is taking a well-deserved holiday break. 12 months ago, most political pundits would have laughed in your face if you suggested that by the end of the year donald trump would have a commanding lead in the race for the republican nomination and bernie sanders would be giving hillary

the democratic side. but 2015 has been a year when conventional wisdom was turned on its head. the big question for 2016 is whether the old order can reassert itself. in a moment, i'll be joined by bernie sanders. but this christmas week, there wasn't any peace and good will from trump as he used a vulgar term to refer to hillary clinton's 2008 defeat to barack obama. and kriltcriticized her for taking a bathroom break during last week's democratic debate. >> she got schlonged. i know where she went. it's disgusting, i don't want to talk about it. >> clinton hit back, accusing trump of using degrading and sexist language. >> nothing really surprises me anymore. i don't know that he has any boundaries at all. and his bigotry, his bluster, his bullying have become his campaign. my next guest, bernie sanders responded with humor. >> i'll be honest with you, i've

[ laughter and applause ] >> sanders has shown surprising strength in the early voting states and in some hypothetical matchups against trump. but what is his path to the nomination? senator sanders joins me from burlington, vermont. welcome back to "meet the press," happy holidays, senator. >> happy holidays to you and all of your viewers. >> thank you very much. let's talk about the data breach and the dustup between you and the democratic party. you fired one staffer, suspended two others. has any other action been taken? any update now on this dispute? >> well, we're trying to work with the dnc to put this whole thing behind us. there were two breaches. we screwed up on one and the other one we did the right thing. right now we're in negotiations with the dnc. frankly, andrea, i think for the american people there are far more important issues having to do with the disappearance of the

income and wealth inequality and climate change and the corrupt campaign finance system so i think on both sides we''d like to focus on the real issues. >> while you're trying to, as you point out, focus on the real issues, there have been charges of sexism back and forth between donald trump and hillary clinton. he used a vulgar term against her and then said it wasn't really that vulgarment then she said she's going to have bill clinton campaigning in january and he tweeted out in the last 24 hours "hillary clinton has announced she is letting her husband out to campaign but he's demonstrated a penchant for sexism. so inappropriate." are we going to get into an argument not only of sexism between donald trump and hillary clinton but donald trump attacking bill clinton? >> well, i tell you what, we're going to let my wife jane out and i think hillary's going to

but, look, the real issues are not donald trump's vulgarity, and he is vulgar. it is the fact that donald trump thinks we should not be raising the minimum wage. he believes that wages in america are too high. this guy wants to give hundreds of billions of dollars in tax breaks to the top three-tenths of one percent and meanwhile what he wants to do is divide our country between latinos and americans and between muslims and everybody else. that's not the kind of america we need. andrea, what we have got to do is ask the hard questions and that is why is it that the people are the top are doing phenomenally well while almost everybody else has seen a decline in their real incomes? why is it that we're not effectively addressing the fact that climate change is absolutely real? i am in burlington, vermont, right now. nobody can recall a christmas eve the likes of which we have seen where the temperature was 65 degrees. and what the scientists are telling us, if we don't get our

leaving a planet to our kids and grandchildren, which is not going to be in good shape. and yet donald trump among others denies even the reality of climate change let alone doing something about it. so we've got some really important issues to discuss in this campaign and i intend to do just that. >> while these are really important issues, what recent polling shows is that americans since paris, since san bernardino are more concerned about terrorism, threat of terrorism, than they are about the economy. at least according to the polling. and, in fact, you had pulled within eight points of hillary clinton in a recent cnn poll taken before last saturday night's debate but the margin widened to 33 points among those polled after the saturday night debate which shows it's tilted heavily on foreign policy. doesn't it show that you still, among people who are concerned about foreign policy, concerned about terror, you really have some ground to make up against hillary clinton? >> you know, it's interesting

because you know what that poll showed? it showed between their last poll and this current poll we gained is 12 points on hillary clinton. she dropped eight, we went up by four. that's the message of the poll. another poll came out, rasmussen also showing up and closing the gap. in new hampshire, some of the recent polls have us ahead and in iowa we're close to catching up to her. so i think what the polls are showing is that the american people are responding to our message. now in terms of isis and foreign policy, these are, of course, huge issues. the american people are concerned about another terrorist attack and what i have said over and over again, we must destroy isis, but we must do it in a way that is smart. >> at the same time, the polling has shown that on foreign policy and on isis that you are far, far behind hillary clinton. and you have said that you would somehow persuade the saudis to stop fighting in yemen and turn

that -- to persuade the saudis to to do that. how could you as commander-in-chief do what other presidents have failed to do in terms of getting the saudis to listen to what america wants for the fight against these terror groups? >> well, it's -- what has got to happen, and certainly the united states and the other major powers have a great deal of leverage. a, it can not be the united states alone. b, what many people in the middle east understand, it must be the muslims themselves on the ground destroying isis. so what we need is, in fact, a coalition. saudi arabia, qatar are incredit kbli wealthy countries and they have got to start using some of their resources to help us destroy isis rather than in the case of saudi arabia fighting in yemen. in the case of qatar spending hundreds of billions of dollars in preparations for the world cup in 2022. so what i think american

together that international coalition to destroy isis. but let me also say this, andrea. i know sometimes the media thinks that is the only issue. it is an enormously important issue. we have got to defend america, we have got to destroy isis. but right now people are watching this program who are 55, 60 years of age. they have zero dollars in their retirement account. they're wondering how they're going to make in the their old age which is why we have to expand social security. there are millions of young people throughout desperately want to go to college, don't want to leave college deeply in debt. we have got to deal with that issue. we are the only country on earth that doesn't provide family and medical leave, doesn't provide health care for people as a right. so my view is, yes, of course we've got to focus on foreign policy, we have to destroy isis. but i will not stop fighting for working families and the middle-class. will not stop taking on a billionaire class whose greed in

>> now, as you let into these early voting stating, you have to win new hampshire, your neighboring state. you're ahead in most polls there. do you feel the democratic party led by debbie wasserman schultz is trying to sabotage your campaign and not being an impartial arbiter going into these early fights? >> well, as you've indicated there's no question that both iowa and new hampshire are enormously important for me and any other candidate. when i began this campaign, andrea, we were nationally at 3% and 4% in the polls. we were way, way behind in iowa, way, way, behind in new hampshire. in new hampshire i think we're a little ahead, in iowa we're closing the gap. so in my view we've got a real shot to win iowa. we've got a real shot to win new hampshire. i am going to be sending a lot of times in the next four or five weeks in iowa, in new hampshire. we have a wonderful grass-roots organization, a lot of

and -- and -- if we can win in iowa or new hampshire, i think it really does open us up to a path toward victory. >> is the dnc giving you a fair shot? >> look, we have had our differences of opinions with the dnc. but at the end of the day, the dnc, hillary clinton, and myself, we want to defeat right wing extremism in this country. so we're trying to work out our differences of opinion. >> well, senator, thank you very much and a happy holiday to you and your family. safe travels. >> thank you very much. i'm joined now by florida congresswoman debbie wasserman schultz, chair of the democratic national committee. welcome, happy holidays to you. >> thank you, andrea, to you as well. >> first of all, what about donald trump and this new attack he has unleashed on twitter against bill clinton campaigning for hillary clinton more actively in january? >> you know, my assessment of

he's been an equal-opportunity insulter. he has engaged in some of the most vulgar invectives and rhetoric and really brought this presidential campaign, its tone and where the debate is on the other side of the aisle to the lowest steps i've ever mean? a presidential campaign. so much so that my own daughters when seeing his commentary on tv asked me, "mom, why is he so rude"? that's not what we should strive for in holding up our presidential candidates on either side of the aisle. we're supposed to want our children to emulate at least the leadership and values even if you don't agree with them of our presidential candidates and unfortunately what's going on on the other side of the aisle has taken this to a new low in presidential politics. >> does it raise questions as to whether there is some risk involved in unleashing bill clinton as popular a figure as

he had his problems in 2008, we saw what happened in that campaign. but if he -- donald trump is going to raise this issue, as he is warning, of bill clinton's past and sexism, does that give you any pause as democratic chair? >> i think that donald trump or any candidate on the other side of the aisle would raise bill clinton as somehow a negative to their peril. i think every poll i've ever seen shows that if president clinton were a candidate tomorrow he'd be reelected. he presided at that time over the longest period of prosperity, sustained up to that point, finished his term very popular and continues to be one of the most admired elected officials and former elected officials and men in the world. >> what about sexism in this campaign? donald trump claims that he was not using a vulgar term when he said that clinton had been schlonged by barack obama in her defeat in 2008. >> well, i will tell you --

>> growing up in my house as a little girl, had i used that term or had anyone used that term around my grandmother or my mother, it would certainly have been considered vulgar and would have resulted in a pretty severe punishment as we received any time we used a term that was inappropriate. donald trump, marco rubio, ted cruz, the larger issue on the republican side of the aisle is that all of them subscribe to poll shows that are harmful to women, whether it's defunding planned parenthood -- >> but more to the point of the sex. they has been alleged, the bullying by hillary clinton against donald trump because i think necessaryhe is in a class by himself -- >> he certainly has taken it to a new low. >> this is partly what he had to say about hillary clinton's campaign energy. >> she does an event, she puts on her pants suit, she walks in -- [ laughter ]

she walks in, does an event, you don't see her for four days, five days. you know why? she goes back home and she goes to sleep. this is not what we need as a president. we need tremendous energy. >> now this low-energy criticism worked against jeb bush. it really hurt jeb bush. is it going to work against hillary clinton? >> like i said, donald trump has been an equal opportunity insulter. he's insulted and been vulgar about not only secretary clinton but carly fiorina, megyn kelly, even me. it's -- it's really outrageous the depths and how low he has allowed the campaign to sink and the rest of the republican field, andrea, is going along with it. >> why is it working so well for him. in his head, hypotheticals, he's doing so well against hillary clinton. >> it's very simple. why he's doing so well in the republican field is because this

today is. they embrace defunding planned parenthood, they don't believe in equal pay for equal work, they don't believe that we should make sure that women have opportunity to make their own health care choices. this is not where americans are today. americans are where the democratic party is. where hillary clinton and bernie sanders and martin o'malley are, wanting to continue the economic prosperity that we've been able to create, bringing us from the worst economic crisis since the great depression forward through 69 straight months of job growth. and that's where we're going to continue because we'll elect one of those three candidates as the 45th president of the united states. >> we'll have to leave it there but thank you so much democratic party chair. after the break, sexism, islamophobia islamophobia, why has this campaign been so ang rirks including againti'm mary ellen, and i quit smokingwith chantix. i have smoked for thirtyyears and by taking chantix, i was able to quitin three months. and that was amazing.

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aveeno daily moisturizing lotion with the goodness of active naturals oat and 5 vital nutrients for healthier looking skin in just one day. healthy skin equals beautiful skin. and for shower softness, add the body wash, too! aveeno naturally beautiful results welcome back. lots of floix dispolitics to discuss with the panel. matt bai, national political columnist for yahoo! news, helene cooper, amy walter editor of the cook political report and michael gerson, a former chief speech writer for george w. bush and "washington post" columnist now. welcome all. amy walter, first to you.

schultz on that. but what about donald trump going after hillary clinton? going after bill clinton? does this work for him? >> well, it has thus far. look, i think donald trump has done something unique in this campaign which is he has understood the republican electorate better than any of the republican candidates going there and he's understood the media environment in which he can make these pronouncements. the problem for donald trump, though, is for as well as he is doing currently on the republican side, he continues to make himself less electable in the general election. you look at where his negatives are, they're higher than hillary clinton's. if you look at the matchups between donald trump and hunkillary clinton in a general election, he's the only candidate losing to hillary clinton in some cases by more than ten points. so for as much as this is getting him the attention he loves and adores and is getting him the crowds of republicans it is pushing him further and further away from the possibility of actually winning

>> at the same time, matt bai, she has had difficulty energizing younger women, millennials, is this attack by donald trump going to help her energize the women support that she really needs? >> it could. i mean, hillary clinton might be having the luckiest year of any nominee in recent memory. she's had bernie sanders who, you know, is going to wage a real fight in those early states but if you had told early on, this is going to be your only serious opponent, she would have had happy about that. then she could draw donald trump or ted cruz who give her a great platform. so she's up against a very difficult historical win, trying to get a third term for her party. she would be the oldest nominee, the oldest president taking office we've seen but all of that won't matter very much if she's very lucky in who she draws and to this point she's looking very lucky. >> helene cooper, we saw bernie sanders even today not talking about foreign policy. he started our interview talking about climate change, economic

his wheel house. even after the most recent polls show he really lost ground in that debate last saturday night when he failed to respond effectively, according to those polls, on foreign policy. >> that's absolutely true. and i think that he's just not that comfortable there. he doesn't want to talk about it. you see him -- and you see many of the republican candidates, as well, when it comes to foreign policy, they repeat the same talking points and they say that we need a coalition. a lot of the things that they say that we should be doing are thing, i would add, that the administration is already doing. so it's just sort of -- watching them, i felt that way as well with the republican debate, the last republican debate where these guys are talking and coming out with these phrases that are designed to make them seem as if they're being strong but when you look behind the sort of rhetoric and there's not much there there, when you ask for specifics, as you did, you didn't hear a lot coming back. >> and, of course, we are so

collectively are so disliked? >> speak for yourself, andrea. >> i'll speak for all of us on this point. donald trump made this clear and he does this at his rallies to the real discomfort of a lot of the reporters covering. let's watch. >> i would never kill them. [ laughter ] i would never do that. um -- let's see. well -- no, i wouldn't. i would never kill them. but i do hate them. >> have you ever seen donald trump and the drunk uncle on "saturday night live" weekend update together? that was a pretty good imitation. but michael gerson, to the serious point of the level of invective. i haven't seen this, frankly, since george wallace campaign where attacks on the media at rallies, you know, really were one of the signature effects. >> it's important to realize what context this was in. he was praising vladimir putin who is someone who is,has, you

and this is where we need to make the distinction between the ridiculous and the dangerous. this is a man now flirting with authoritarianism, praising the leadership style of vladimir putin. so his divisive rhetoric, extreme policies and now he's praising a leadership style that really flirts with authoritarianism. this is a serious, serious matter. >> but, of course, it is working and matt bai, you wrote memorably this week why. that we are somewhat to blame. in fact, you wrote "it's clear now that trump's enduring popularity is in no small part a reflection of an acid disdain for us. this is a simmering reaction to smugness and shallowness in the media, a parade of glib punditry unmoored to any sense of history or personal experience. it's about our love of gaffes and scandals real or imagined and our rigid enforcement of the politically correct." discuss. [ laughter ] >> oh, i've heard some discussion.

not always popular. we treat presidential politics and politics in general like a reality show and we have for years. if you've been following the immediate i can't go media in this campaign, we set up ncaa brackets to match the seeds in the campaign. we order up every kind of garbage poll you can find. we literally treat our candidates as contestants on a game show to be voted off and voted on. and i think there's a cost for that. you set up a platform where someone like a donald trump can exploit it because he is the perfect reality show candidate and there is this symbiosis with the media and trump. at this point i think he has to be covered to the extent he is because he is clearly leading late in the polls but there was a long period in the campaign where i think we exaggerated his support because it brought ratings and clicks and i think we did a great disservice to the country. >> let's leave that here for a moment. we'll be back.

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welcome back. from beijing to baghdad, america is confronting incredible challenges on a scale not seen since the days immediately after 9/11. after the paris and san bernardino terror attacks, which candidate should be trusted to sit in the oval office? the big question for voters in 2016. the commander inhief st. which candidate will beble to handle crises arnd he world and terror thrts here at home? in afghanistan,america's longest war, just this past week, the worst u.s. troop losses in three years. >> it's still dangerous, as we saw this past week. we had some outstanding brave men and women who were killed. >> in iraq, sunnis and shiites struggle for power. syria is in shambles and isis is on the mar from iraq d syr libya, afghanistan, and

who can defeat the terror group? donald trump says let vladimir putin do it. >> if russia wants to bomb them, let them bomb them. >> but it's putin, along with iran, who has kept syria's brutal dictator, bashar al assad, in power. >> russia and iran have to face the fact that continuing to prop up a vicious dictator will not bring stability. right now, i'm afraid, president putin is actually making things somewhat worse. >> unlike obama, hillary clinton has called for a no-fly zone over syria. >> one of the reasons why i have advocated for a no-fly zone is in order to create those safe refuges within syria. >> but with putin now flying air strikes over syria, even she now acknowledges this is more complicated. experts warn the u.s. could find itself in a dog fight with russian fighter jets. >> russians planes flying combat missions, you have advanced russian weapon systems, that means our ability to operate is

>> all this as the syrian conflict produces a flood of refugees, overwhelming europe and becoming an explosive campaign issue at home. >> donald j. donald trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of muslims entering the united states. >> president obama and hillary clinton's proposal to bring to america tens of thousands of syrian muslims is nothing short of lunacy. >> and now one dissenting republican voice has been forced to drop out. >> donald trump has done the one single thing you cannot do -- declare war on islam itself. >> i'm joined now from palo alto by mike mcfall, former ambassador to russian that under president obama and wendy sherman, who recently stepped down as undersecretary of political affairs at the state department. wendy sherman, how is this anti-muslim rhetoric having an impact on our foreign policy and

>> it's incredibly dangerous, andrea. this kind of islamophobia is playing right into the recruitment by the jihadis of people from all over the world. it is alienating the very people that we need to be working with us. this has to be led bin the muslim world, this effort to defeat isis. the united states is an important partner in that effort, but we can not do it alone, we should not do it alone, and, indeed, this kind of rhetoric is only pushing people away from us when we need them the very most. >> mike mcfall, one of the leading rebel leaders in syria was killed reportedly by russian strikes, indicating do some that vladimir putin is playing both sides and really disrupting the peace process that would be critical to any successful fight against isis, the peace process that was just being launched to try to negotiate an exit strategy for assad. what role is vladimir putin playing with his surprising entry in september into the

strikes in syria? >> well, let's be clear, the reason why he went into syria was to support assad. he said that to his own people. he has to justify why he did this military intervention. it was to support assad. and first and foremost, that has meant attacking those that we support. now, over the last couple of weeks, there's been some signs that he might attack isis, but as you just reported, they are still going after those that we think need to be part of the solution in terms of a political transition. >> which raises the point about the wisdom of donald trump and what he has had to say, embracing vladimir putin. let me play that for both of you. >> at least he's a kwlooerd,leader, unlike what we have in this country. i've always felt fine about putin. i think that he is a strong leader. he's a powerful leader, he's represented his country, that's

he's actually got popularity within his country, they respect him as a leader. >> mike mcfaul, first to you. >> the's so many things that are wrong with that statement on so many different levels. first of all, vladimir putin does only things that are in russia's national interest. so for him to be endorsing mr. trump, that's because he think it's in russia's national interest for mr. trump to be the leader in the united states. second, the part -- you didn't play in the your clip. the part i found most reprehensible when responding to that question on "morning joe" was the moral equivalency between what the united states does abroad in terms of our armed forces and what putin does domestically. trump basically said that what soldiers in afghanistan are doing and pilots in syria are doing is the same thing as those that kill journalists in russia. that is not in america's

>> both of you have served in