tavis: good evening. tonight, a conversation with one of the greatest figures in television. he has a dvd collection of some of his greatest shows, "all in the family" and "maude" and "good times." and he has a new series of music from around the world, "playing

for change." normal lear, co-- norman lear, coming up right now. >> wal-mart is looking forward to building strogner communities -- stronger communities. >> nationwide insurance supports tavis smiley. working to achieve financial literacy and the power that comes with it. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. >> welcome norman lear back to

the program. he is as busy as ever if you are a fan of his television work. this is the norman lear collection, with "good times," and the "jeffersons," and he has a new cd, "playing for change." first, a selection. >> momma, you are supposed to be resting, you're weak. >> they only took out my appendix. not my fists. >> what happened? >> she called me ugly. that could reduce a less beautiful person to tears. >> i hope you're not leaving on my account. >> i can't think of a better

reason. >> you be nice. >> goodnight, and have a nice evening. >> we have riots. >> because of poverty. >> because of fdr. >> he brought us back from the depression. >> he won the war. >> macarthur won the war. >> and he was fired. >> that was truman. >> this is the worst one i've ever had. this is the big one. i'm dying. you hear that elizabeth? i'm coming to join you, honey. >> i'm laughing, so are you. you still think this is good?

>> the performances are undeniable. i will laugh just like the first time. the performance is undeniable but the writing is good. >> we have the best collaboration in the business. i am 36 years old and the reason i looked -- like this is because laughter and tears to your life. tavis: speaking of being in 36 years old, this is a box set, 19 discs. when you signed off on this, when you look back, what do you make of it? everybody comes on and agrees that every one of us wants to be judged by our body of work, not a particular series or

interview, by the body of work. you are judged and what do you think? >> i look at america when i look at this. i have been asked why the topicality and the edginess, however they frame it. this is american life living the problems as i have seen them. that is all we were doing. when we came together, writers and producers, to talk about the next episode, we were used to reading newspapers and paying attention to the news and the families. what our kids and wives were going through. we were scraping the barrel

of oru experie-- our experiences. >> as modest as you are, at the time, this was the writing -- risky, and you look back on this, it is ahead of its time. there are more black folk on television then then there are now. you were risky and you were ahead of your time. >> you know what i thought of, speaking of black folks on television. they were the first families. the audiences became black aslo. -- also. just as in black churches, and i

love to go there on a sunday morning. the reaction is different than in a white church. this is a celebration of life and is very different. that is the way that the audience as the cave. you can hear them reacting, audibly, not just because they were laughing but because they were carrying on, and i believe that the audiences in those, coming to those tapings influenced the american audience. the audience in the theater and everywhere in the country is very different as a result of the audience at the taping. tavis: you are born and raised in connecticut, and i want to find out how someone becomes as

liberal as you are, putting black people on television and understanding the complexity. your from connecticut. >> my father went to prison when i was 9 years old. tavis: your grandfather? >> my father. i lived with my uncles, and then my grandfather. he was an immigrant as many grandfathers are, and he loved this country fiercely. we had parades on memorial day and the fourth of july. there was abraham lincoln's birthday, and i would stand on the street corner, with the old man and he would hold my hand, and it would get tighter as the flag went by and there would be a tear on his cheek. he wrote the president, every

letter was, my dearest darling mr. president. and he would get a response. >> that was his greeting? my dearest darling? >> even if he disagreed. didn't i tell you last week -- and that was an audience of one. but i would run downstairs, in the etiquette -- connecticut and i'd see the letter from the white house. i started with that. i don't know how i found on radio. charles couglin, who was a racist and anti-semmite.

somehow i found it, i didn't have a friend who did. i could not -- my father was a victim of the depression. they couldn't send me to college and there was a contest. i mention that. the topic was the constitution, and everybody would have to perform about the constitution. as a jewish kid, who was in live -- love with the declaration and the bill of rights, and had listened to this man. i amdn my -- and my grandfather loved the rights ahd -- and liberties as a kid. that continued through my life.

tavis: for everybody. two things you said, you gave me so much rich material. number one, you mentioned your father went to jail. tell me as a nine year old how that effected you, and what was it like when he came out? >> i am learning, at my age, how much it effected me. i don't live with regret, i don't have any regret. i think about if this is true. this is the moment. everything is now. but to the extent i may have been a bright kid, i had a point of view, i had to clamp down who

i was to exist in other people's homes. i remember a summer with a cousin, and i was at their home and his father used to come home in the evening in the summer and we'd be out and we'd hear a whistle. we would rush to his father, whistling for his son. i ached to have my father whistling for me. but when we were in our 20's, we were together and i told him about this. he said, "really?" "i felt like a dog. i hated it." >> when your father got out,

what was that reunion like? >> i'll never forget it. hartford railroad.oad he comes in and he's at the edge of the train. my mother and my sister and our bags, we're getting on the train. we were going to new york to live until he found a job with another family and a place to live. he was standing there with a suit i remember that he wore when he went away. this was now too big. we get on the train.he was wit he was with my mom.

he said, that i'll take you to time's square. at midnight you will be able to read a newspaper. and you will be bar mitbar mit'n a year. of course we're going in a year. it took me a time to learn he had a dream he never reached. he would always have a million dollars to take me on a trip around the world. i didn't expect to sit here and go through this. >> this is fascinating. you made the point you are still learning about yourself if you

are open to that. as you look back on your life and the decisions, the way that you have gone about making your decisions, the process you have encountered. keeping your word. i want to get a sense on how your father had these dreams and how this impacts how you live your life. >> i think i am sure that i grew up thinking, i don't want to do that. i love teh expression -- the expression, ancount on me. some men and women are my gr eat friends and i know i can

count on them. he wasn't somebody i could count on. >> that's where it came from. >> absolutely. as for the rest of it, goglin -- coglin and a fellow from jersey, i picked up a lot of that in my relationship to the bill of rights and the declaration of independence. the african americans, the black families, i love doing that. >> another great part of your story, i have seen this in person. you are a kid who grows up loving the constitution, the bill of rights, and you are an

owner of -- >> the declaration of independence. tavis: that is a great story. you are moved by the documents, you look up, how do you end up owning this? >> i read that a copy of the declaration was auctioned off on television. my daughter, i have 14 year old twin daughters. one was going to school with a girl who had a dad who ran sotheby's. i read about this and i call him. he says, it is in my showroom. my associate is with me, and we walk down to the sotheby's and

we walk in and it's on an easel. i was about to cry. i saw a tear in her eye. this was, there may have been 200 printed on july 4, 1776. only 25 are left. the copies sent by horseback, read aloud. they were the announcement of revolution. the birth certificate of the country was that night. it may have been the one that everyone remembers, a fellow buying a picture frame because he liked the frame.@ @didn't know that behind the

picture. tavis: i remember. >> was this document. it has been traveling since we bought it. tavis: why is it important to travel it. and how do you describe what it means to own this copy? >> this could sound [unintelligible] i bought this to travel and get to people. this is the birth certificate of the country. i don't collect these things and wouldn't hang it on a wall so 11 people could see it. it belongs to all of us. i thought, if i get it, i fill f-- will find the money and

travel it. four or five months after this, was the summer olympics. there was david rockwell, with this huge exibit and i had gone to -- exhibit and i had gone with major people who read the declaration of independence in independence hall, conrad hall. we had bells and whistles there and it has been traveling ever since. i have seen people lining up just to get to the document for a moment. they have gone to a table where

they could write what they felt. >tavis: wow. in the five minutes i have left, respond how you want to respond. it would be tragic without throwing the names of the shows at you. i will go in order. "all in the family." >> the antecedent was a british show. i thought, how did i not think of this. my father called me the laziest white kid he ever met. >i said, "you're putting down a race?" he said, "you're the dumbest white kid."

tavis: "good times." >> ester was on "maude," and her moments adds time to my life. we knew that she should be on her own show, and brought in john amos. we had players in the bush leagues, they were in the bush leagues and earned a right to the majors. tavis: "the jeffersons." >> the black press for "good times" wanted to know why all of these people, why does he have to have three jobs. why is there no show that's upwardly mobile.

that's where we got the show. we're moving on up. >tavis: if you can't sing the theme song, you don't get your black card. mary hartman? >> i wanted to do a show with the effect of media on a simple person, a midcountry housewife. she was in fernwood, ohio, with a blue collar husband. and the media, in the last episode, she was on the david suskind show with three personalities. and in the best 20 minutes i have ever seen, she went crazy at the hands of the media.

tavis: "sanford and son" and my time is almost up. >> we fell in love with red fox in vegas, and there was a show, steptoe and son. that has to be red fox. tavis: you had to clean him up, but he worked. we miss bea arthur, "maude." >> nobody ever made me laugh the way she did, she got to places i didn't know i had. tavis: i have been trying to think beyond iconic, this does not describe lear's contribution. we all get a chance to celebrate this with his new collection, a 19 disc set.

pbs watchers have seen "playing for change," thank you for that as well. nice to have you. your life is so full. >> i will come back next week. tavis: make room for him. catch me on the weekends and you can listen on the radio on pbs.org. thank you for watching. and as always, keep the faith. [captioning made possible by kcet public television] captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org-- >> for more information, visit

"nurse jackie." see you then. >> wal mart is trying to help people live better and build stronger communities and relationships. >> nationwide insurance supports tavis smiley. working to improve financial literacy. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.