tavis: good evening from lñ glad you've joined us for a

about the u.s. auto industry and edie falco, coming up right now. >> there are so many things wal-mart is looking forward to helping us doing, like helping you live better. with your help the best is yet to come. >> nationwide insurance proudly supports tavis smiley. tavis and nationwide insurance, working to improve financial liteionwide is on your side. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. [captioning made possible by kcet public television] tavis: it is such a rare thoing bet berry gordy to sit for a

conversation about his life and legacy he is sort of modest in that way. this is the 50th anniversary of motown which he started at hitsville, u.s.a., in detroit five decades ago. so last night if you saw this program, we ran a conversation with mr. gordy, and the conversation got so rich, at the end of 30 minutes, i was just getting warmed up. so i asked him if he could would stick around for another 30 minutes to put another show on tape so we could continue our conversation about his life, his legacy, and that of motown which is the soundtrack to our lives. and i'm glad you could stick around for a few more minutes. >> so am i. tavis: we were talking about your song writing. you were a boxer and you were writing songs. we'll get to motown in a second. you started writing songs. one that you wrote and sold was to a guy named jackie willson, a song we know called "lonely

teardrops." tell me about that song. >> well, jackie was one of the greatest artists that i have ever seen. and my sisters and ann and gwen were my big promoters and they introduced me to their boss, algreen, and al happened to be jackie's manager. they were promoting me, my brother the boxer. they come to my fights. my brother the songwriter, help my brother. tavis: you had some good sisters. >> my mother, my sisters, women in my life have been the biggest blessing ever. that's why i associate with them in so many areas. my sisters were so strong. they introduced me to al green who was managing jackie willson and i got a -- wilson and i got a chance to meet with jackie

and i saw him at the flame show bar and he was mr. excitement, the greatest. and so i went to jackie and i said, you know, i want to write for you. he looked at me and he was like overwhelmed, what do you mean? write for me. i want to write a song for you. it's going to be number one. well, i don't have a recording contract right now this and that. if you write and sing my song, it will be number one and you'll get a recording. tavis: i love your confidence. >> i have always had confidence, you know. and so he said ok. not that easily, but we got back and forth and i kept bugging him. ok, man, i'm here, i got some great stuff. so anyway, i wrote a song with a partner of mine, billy davis and it was called "reet

petite," the finest gifrl you ever want to meet. but he made it a classic. he made it a classic. it was a big hit, his first record. my head used to hurt when they would play the record on the air. i turned on the radio one day and it was playing on the radio. i turned on dick clark was i wanted to see what he was doing and he was playing the same record, it was that big. my head hurt. that was the most exciting day probably in my life. anyway, so that was "reet petite." and that i don't know if i did "to be loved" with jackie after that or "lonely teardrops." tavis: they were both big. "lonely teardrops," really my heart was crying when i wrote that song. tavis: i'm going to jump forward and come back again. your auto biography which i love so much is entitled "to be

loved." if you don't have his book, you need to get it. this conversation can't do justice to it, you got to get his book. so in your autobiography, "to be loved," that title for that book was obviously very important to you. there is so many things you could have named your book. so many things. why did you go with "to be loved?" >> i wrote "to be loved," because like i said there such a rich history, i'm the luckiest man in the world, everything has worked out right. i was divorced by my wife, you know, my first wife because i was basically kind of a bum. i was trying to do my music. i was trying to do stuff and i eventually had to get a job in the factory lincoln mercury where i got most of my ideas for the assembly line and you

will of that stuff that happened which we can go into another time. but, anyway, so i left my house, i had no place to go, and i had my bag and i knew i could go to my sister's and i walked in there unannounced and everything, 1:00 in the morning or whenever it was and opened the door and i was -- tears were in my eyes a little bit but i said i'm here. she said what do you mean? i'm here, i left. i know longer have anybody because i know i can come here. home is a place when you have to go there, they have to take you in. so i just felt this is my home. and my sister opened the door. she said what's happening? i'm getting divorced. i have three kids. they're not going to know me.

they're not going to love me. she said don't worry about that, they'll love you the same as we do. come in here and get some rest. and i stood there and i just started crying and i held her and i walked over to her piano. she had a pine yore and i sat down -- piano and i sat down and i sang the words to be loved, to be loved, oh, what a feeling to be loved, just wrote it out. so fortune and fame and all of that stuff. i sat there at the piano and i was crying and that became -- then i realized in order to be loved, you have to love. tavis: that's the truth. >> and that's how that came. but every song has a story because what we do at motown and what we did at motown and what i tried to bring to all of the people is we deal with truth. what's the truth to you? the truth to your production

and so forth and so on. phil: how much did it help you then, turning to the motown story, how much did it help you then when you started working with all of these artists we talk about diana and stevie and marvin and michael and his brothers in a second. how much did it help you when you became the chairman of motown that you knew the experience? there are a lot of people who run record companies, but you knew the experience of being a songwriter and having number one hits. you knew the experience of putting your truth on paper. i assume as head of a record label that helped you immensely because you had been there, you had done that? >> objecting, you're hands on and you do it yourself. i was a writer. i considered myself a great writer. i wrote "to be loved." i wrote "do you love me." i wrote all those things. i thought i was a great writer. smokey came in and i met him at

an audition, jackie's audition and they turned him down. i love you, you're great. smokey said, well, i was turned down, but i'll help you and i did. so we got together and smokey at that point was not -- i listened to a lot of the songs, he wasn't a great writer. he was a brilliant poet but he wasn't a great writer. tavis: you taught him. you got to tell a story. it's got to have a beginning. >> that's it. anyway, once he got it he became incredible putting the stuff together and then me as a writer, i dropped down a couple notches and then when, you know, when stevie and marvin came, i dropped down way, i was like, you know, i was like in freefall, you know as a writer. and the other artist and holland, eddie holland,

awesome. and it kept happening throughout my career and i kept dropping, lionel richie. tavis: how did your ego handle that? >> great because i kept telling myself, you know, you want to make people happy. they were all happy and i was happy they were happy and i got a chance to learn so much more about life, you know. i still wrote, but my songs were like turned down after that because we had a friday meeting -- tavis: before you tell this story, i wanted to go there. you read my mind. i want to preface this before you tell this story. i was in new york a few weeks ago. i stay in the same hotel all the time, at a particular hotel, i asked where they were performing for a few nights. i went down stairs and bought some tickets to see nick and val and i sat in the audience and enjoyed the show.

at a certain point in the show when they start singing the string of hits that they wrote for many of the motown artists, they tell the story of how they got into motown with berry gordy. you want to hear a story, nick can tell the story of the first time he went to motown and sat around this table for the friday meeting. he tells a great story but how it went down. you're about to say every friday you had a meeting, you sit around the table and play the records. it's a great story. >> we come to this room and we sat around and in that room you were immune to anything. you could say anything, you were immune. you could talk about me. you could say my records were garbage or whatever it was. they were all immune and they knew they could talk to me as the chairman like that and there is no reprisals because sometimes the sales department, they want to put out a record and get into the meeting and they would just knock it down.

they would sometimes take reprisals on the people that didn't go with what they wanted. once they told me about it, those guys were in real trouble. when you come into this meeting, it's about truth. but then, of course, i had lost out because a lot of my records lost out to smokey when they put mine up and his up and his would win. they were only doing that because i was the chairman and they had the right to go against my records. i had always told them, you know, i'm in charge, but logic is the boss. if you can prove me wrong, do it. so a lot of those records that smokey got credit for, hits, i had some better hits that didn't get out. they were in the can because people were just mad, they got mad at me. they were on smokey. tavis: that's your story and you're sticking to it. >> that's right. tavis: as nick tells the story -- >> i want to say about nick and val, they were at t

and their first record that they came in, i believe it was the marvin gaye record marvin and tammy and their record just won hands down. but they were incredible. tavis: he tells the story what scared him was to that meeting that you describe about truth, right before he got up, they had voted down a number of other records. the person before him was smokey. on that particular day, smokey's record got voted down. he said that was it for him and val. he knew he was in trouble. he played the record and y'all took him in and the rest is history. they started writing hits for motown. >> they were awesome because their record was so strong. and they were just great all the way. in fact, they were single-handedly responsible for diana ross' single career. they wrote the whole album. those people, they were awesome. tavis: this is a story that i have heard so many times, but

it is so moving for me and you have been so humble about it over the years that it's worth telling again. that is the hit that almost wasn't. you and marvin went back and forth over "what's going on." y'all went back and forth, maybe one of the best songs ever written. you went back and forth. marvin won in the end. tell me about that. what were you not hearing? what were you missing that day, mr. chairman? >> i wasn't missing anything, you know. i loved the record, but i was his manager and i was his record company and i was all those things and i was like the protector of these young people. marvin gaye was the biggest pop singer that motown had ever seen with his stature and everything. you're wonderful one, pride and joy. all the stuff that he did, "i heard it through the grapevine," marvin was our

superstar single male and i was his manager. so when he came up with this protest record, this protest record, police brutality, all of these things that were vietnam war. wait a minute, this is my sex symbol guy and all of a sudden he is coming in and, you know, that's kind of rough. but i was more concerned about him as his manager. so i'm saying, marvin, do you really want to come out, police brutality, vietnam war, you got this great career going? we want back and forth and he was -- but marvin was the kind of person, had to know that marvin was the kind of person that would just disagree to disagree. i mean, he had a long history when he came into the company, he wanted to do frank sinatra songs period.

marvin, i want you to be you. be who you are, you know. so he did this album and it was a beautiful great album, but it didn't sell. in fact, i used to tell him, i said it went double plastic, marvin. tavis: not double platinum, double plastic. [laughter] >> so then i said, ok, the next song he did, it should be something more like who you are. so they wrote a song called " something kind of fellow." they put it out and it was a big head. he realized being himself. so at that point he was himself and he just got into it. so when he came into with "what's going on," he was himself more than i wanted him to be himself. that's what he felt. he convinced me. man, i really feel this, you

know, and i want to aqueousen the minds of men. i have a brother in vietnam. i have this. whatever he did, he was convincing that he really, really -- i said what about your career, marvin? i don't care about the career. i want to awaken the minds of men. tavis: how tragic, i don't know if you have the words for this, it's an unfair question, it is, i can move past it. i know how the rest of us who still love marvin felt when we heard the news on that april 1. i know i and a bunch of others, i thought it was a very, very sick april fool's joke when i heard the news of marvin's passing. how do you -- how did berry gordy navigate his way past that news when you heard that? >> well, i don't know, i guess, you know most of us were just numb, period, because we had a great personal love for marvin.

we were just numb. it was like we were just, it was, you know, one of those things where it was unbelievable for such a long time, you know and i mean we were like the rest of the world. we were saddened and, you know, it was just a horrible day for all of us. tavis: let me ask you another impossible question since i'm on a roll with impossible questions now. if anybody can answer this question, you can. i have never asked this of anybody because i felt you would have something to say something about this. they're not the same age, obviously, but stevie comes to you as little stevie wonder. michael comes to you as michael jackson, but they're both kids. compare and contrast, you got two kids who come to you and become towering artists as kids. assess for me what you thought, what you saw, what you heard when you got little stevie

wonder, kid, michael jackson kid, you got two kids here? >> well, stevie wonder was first and i tried not to even see michael jackson because stevie was incredible. he was a young guy. he was a young black kid and his mother was so tough on us and i didn't even like his singing, you know. i didn't like his singing at all. he played bongos and sung. i loved his harmonica playing. the first record we put out on him was a harmonica. he was great, but for the kind of work and trouble. he had to have a tutor, he had to have a producer would travel with him. he had a teacher. his mother was with him. it was like an entourage and the blind kid wasn't bringing

in any money at all. and his mother was demanding all of this stuff. she was so loveable and she loved her child so much and she really thought he was greater than he was at the time. tavis: at the time. >> and he wanted to be with motown so bad, but, you know, but his mother was like -- and she turned out to be just a great wonderful mother. we have long talks and stuff like that. and he just developed into -- his harmonica thing first, and then he got lucky with a record at the powell where he was doing his little clap your hands a little bit louder. what's the name of that? tavis: fingertips." >> that was a big hit. but little baby voice. tavis: talk about that drama, you didn't even want to see five kids. >> oh, no.

i was told i got this group. they're kids. >> i said, oh, no. no thank you. and she said, oh, no, please, mr. gordy just listen to them. no, i got stevie wonder and that's enough. i don't want no kids, tutors and this and that. she said, please, you just listen to them. i wasn't going to but just listen to them. she said bobby taylor, one of the artists had turned her on to this group. they were just great. so knowing that she had good taste, i said ok. i just listened to them and naturally when i saw them, i went and grabbed my little new videotape recorder and start filming these kids. they were so great. and the little tape you see with him, the little kids on tv or whatever you see tavis: you recorded that. >> that was my recording of it, yeah. tavis: boxer, song wriringt, chairman, video grapher.

>> it was so much fun. and you don't realize what fun. the love throughout that whole thing and what we're going to do for the 50th is to show we had a lot of stuff coming, documentary telling in long form documentary and a it's different in terms of aspects of it. it was a phenomenal thing that happened and i want it to happen again so, therefore, i'm trying to whenever i talk to the young people and people that really feel that they are -- like i total the "vanity fair" people, you can do a story. what can we ask you? ask me anything as long as you deal with the truth. they asked me everything from the mafia, the this, the that, the whole thing and they then went to the artists and got the truth and went to the people that worked there and went through all of the people. did you read the article?

tavis: i did >> i was very gratified that the story is out. the legacy is fine. i'm in great shape. tavis: he is better than great shape. i'm speechless and i never am but to have the opportunity to sit for not one night, but two nights with berry gordy with the legacy that he has left or leaving and he ain't going anywhere no time soon. the legacy he is leaving and the life that he is leading all of your lives are enriched. imagine for a moment. take two seconds and imagine for a moment what our lives would be like had there been no motown. that's not enough. i don't want you to get a migraine. i can't imagine life without motown. and so, it's 50 years of celebration for motown. there is a beautiful 10-c.d. deluxe boxed set shaped like the house that motown was made

in and still exists in detroit. >> those are hits from around the world. the number one hits from around the world. the original number one hits. tavis: that's why the box is so big. honor to have you here. the pleasure is mine. that's our show for tonight. catch me on the weekends on p.r.i. or access our radio podcast at our website. good night from l.a. thanks for watching and as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. glad you've joined us for a

about the u.s. auto industry and edie falco, coming up right now. >> there are so many things wal-mart is looking forward to helping us doing, like helping you live better. with your help the best is yet to come. >> nationwide insurance proudly supports tavis smiley. tavis and nationwide insurance, working to improve financial literaide is on your side. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.