tavis: good evening from los angeles. i've tavis smiley. tonight a conversation with the legendary founder of mow tone berry gordy he borrowed $800 from his family and started a small record label in detroit. that little record label would become one offfffffffffffffffff pieces in motown. the label has just released a 10-disc set that highlights motown's rare glad you've joined us for a about the u.s. auto industry and edie falco, coming up right now.

>> there are so many things wal-mart is looking forward to helping us doing, like helping you live better. with your help the best is yet to come. >> nationwide insurance proudly supports tavis smiley. tavis and nationwide insurance, working to improve financial lite to improve financial literacy. and by contributions by your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. [captioning made possible by kcet public television] tavis: i'm beyond pleased tonight. i'm on in order and humbled and whatever else i can be to welcome berry gordy to this program. 50 years ago this month he

started a small record label in detroit that would become one of the most prolific records in history. he commemorate motown's history. you can pick up a 10-disc set. motown, the complete number one. here's just a samp ol of the genius of motown. ♪ ain't no mountain high enough ain't no valley low enough ♪ ♪ mr. postman oh, yeah ♪ ♪ i heard it through the grapevine ♪ ♪ before you ask some girl keep your freedom for as long as you can my momma told me you better shop around ¤

>> mr. chairman, an honor to have you on the program. >> it's my pleasure. tavis: you doing all right? >> i'm doing all right. >> -- tavis: look good and clean. >> so you are. tavis: how much i am a sucker for packaging. i love this job. you see this -- this box set is in the design of the hits of your house. can you read that sflint my says tavets, enjoy berry gordy. you can't get mine, but you can get your own. but i love the packaging. it's a school idea. >> well, it's the museum now, but it was the hitsville house. and it's where we started. it's where everything happened. tavis: tell me about the house? how did you find the house? how did you end up in that

house? for those who never went in detroit, it is a museum. tell me about the house. >> it was a house found by my wife at the time, rae. and it was just a studio. and i loved the house because it had a garage that i felt the beat. and it had a great big window in the front. and it was just a beautiful layout for me. tavis: yeah. >> and that's it. we went in and you know, we made the garage, the recording studio and upstairs, we had a bedroom. i lived there. everything became rooms for people to -- piano and rooms, and we just created that as we went along. and it was evolutionary rather

than something we had planned. it was just a plan. i named it hitsville because at that time "ville" was the word. and i named itsville because it was where hits were going to be made. tavis: did it become hitsville later on? >> no i started on with a garage, with a big picture window, which i thought was great. and i just tried to figure out what to name it. tavis: when did you put hitsville on it? how long was it there before you called it hitsville. >> i don't know exactly. it was shortly after. we were in there recording and doing all kind of stuff. i bought a little studio -- a little -- i bought a two-track machine from a disc jockey in detroit.

biss to o'brien. that machine was where we started. tavis: i asked that hitsville because i've known a black man to be a visionary. he called it hitsville that's a lot of -- of course it turned out to be hitsville. it's a great name. i've been there so many times. i love going there every time i'm in detroit. i want to ask you a few questions about stuff that people may not know about you and then we'll come to the motown thing. i said how much i personally enjoy the "vanity fair" piece. it was a wonderful spread. many, many pages. annie leibowitz did the photos. i thought it was a wonderful piece, in part because it was the story of motown told from the people who made motown. you and all the people around

you. as many times as we've talked over the year, i've always had a sense, and i got that through the magazine that will's a story about motown that rubs you raw. there's something about the telling of the story of motown that you were unhappy with and you were always intent on telling the story the way you think the story was to be told. what is that thing about the telling of the story that you don't like which makes it so important which -- for you to tell the story? >> well, you know, motown has always been like a fathery tail. we did things differently at motown. it started out -- it's a whole big story. what happened is -- you're going to need a lot more time. but -- [laughter] >> because every story that i tell it's like a branch. it goes out like a branch and it spreads out. and there's another story. and there's a story of diana. there's a story of the temp

tations. there's a story of the funk brothers. when you simplify it, it was just a -- a magical thing that happened. and i -- i feel that it had a lot to do with justify loss fis, stuff that i had learned as a kid. you know, it's so many different stories. but the truth was never told. and so after 50 years, i decided, well, we would just kind of let people tell their own truth. when the magazine came to me. in fact, you spoke of the "vanity fair" magazine, the article, that was the greatest article that's ever been done on motown. the reason it was great, is because one, it was the truth. you know, and the true -- truth has never been told. there's been plays, plue vies

about motown. it's from people from the outside people that were not there. they said we want to do this great article. we want to honor you. lisa robinson was the person whom i met with with "vanity fair." i said i don't want sound bites. i don't want to do anything -- and i had not done any articles because i did not want to do them because i don't want anything but the truth of what it was. so knowing that they were very good we they're research, good or bad. because you said, what can we tell you? what can we talk about? what don't you want to talk about? >> i said i will talk about anything you want to talk about. the toughest questions you want to talk about as long as you will promise me that you will research it. you're known for that. but it's easy to research something or it's easy to come out with things that are

exportative. the mafia, this and that. because no one would believe a black kid from detroit could create motown. tavis: now you're getting to what i want to get to. what is it that kept angering berry gordy the way the story was told? one thing they connected you with the mafia. >> everything was wrong. they never had motown -- the fact is that when we came out with our records, they were so strong, they were dealing, they went to the top of the charts. they were so incredible. and it was done with all my money. i borrowed $800 from my family. tavis: by the way, did you ever pay them back? >> oh, yes. you should see -- in my book -- i signed my life away.

tavis: to be loved. >> i went to this for $1,000 because we had a family club life where we all put in so much money a month for the kids. my sisterester was always trying to educate us. family was a very close family. we would put $10 a month in this -- the whole family. and no one had ever borrowed any money from this, it's called burrberry. named after my father murthat and berry. i would make it motown. i found out that everything comes up from upringing, your childhood, things that you learn as a kid and if you stick with that -- and i tell all the young people today when i do a commencement speech, you know,

it's all about principles, it's all about integrity, it's all about loyalty. and i'm out here today because of the 50th anniversary, and this is for those great loyal people that supported me throughout -- this is not for me. this is for those motown artists that were going through the south in the view and been shot at by people in the south. they were -- they were -- they were awesome. i tried to pull them off the road. and they said, no, this is important. smokey and the rest of them said, no, we're going to go. we're going to sing. we're going to show people. i'm responsible. you kid are out there. getting shot -- come on back here. you know? they said, we love what we're doing. tavis: beyond the fact that they obviously loved what they're doing, they were born to be artists thanks to these hits. talk to me about those loyalty issues. why were you so loyal to them and why were they so loyal to

you? >> it's all about love. it's all about love. it's all about truth. we had something that in motown that i tried, and i thought, well, it's a whole long story about things i've done. but i've fought for this legacy for 30 years because i wanted to get this truth out. the truth will only win if you can afford to fight for it. if you were willing to fight for it. and i was. it was the legacy of motown. i tell kids you can never build a place like motown if you were with the mafia. you can talk about me because i don't care, my legacy is going to be whatever it's going to be. you're going to love me whether i'm here or not. just like i love you. my legacy's going to be what it is. but the legacy of motown cannot be messed with. it is a legacy for all people.

i mean, especially black people. but the legacy of motown was a magical legacy. and i could not let anybody, you know, anybody just rewrite history because there's people around the world that -- that grew up with our music. and i didn't ever want them to think this is all over the world -- that motown was run by bad people. tavis: there's a great line in that "vanity fair" magazine. and you said it to me in private. i was so glad to see it in the article. that motown is the sound track of our lives. it is the sound track of our lives. and that's why you take it so seriously. that's why lives had been built -- >> and i don't want them to invalidate their own lives. but that the guy who built this was a gangster.

tavis: i'm only talking about it because it's addressed in "vanity fair." i'm not saying anything that has not been addressed publicly. the producer of "the dream girls" film took out a four page ad to make it clear that "the dream girls" movie was not based on berry gordy and motown. did you insist that that get done? >> i was happy that it got done. i did meet with david geffen. he is the man there. and he's a g gd friend of mine. we've been friends for 40 years. the competitors, all the record companies we were out there fighting each other for records, but we all loved each other. david and i we would talk about problems and that. i mean, and all of the people out there, you know, we all

were trying to advance the rmb artist, black people give them something to do. we did it different ways. stacks and i people thought we were the biggest enemies of the world. and we would just laugh about it. they said, they're wrong. motown is too -- too this or too that. tavis: one was wrong and one was refined. >> yeah. one was wrong. the problem was that i sat down with david. i told him david, this is like i'm a gangster. this is the worst character that i've ever seen. he said, well, you know, it's a movie. i said, it's a movie, but -- tavis: it's my life. >> he understood. you really feel that way?

you can talk about me, whatever i do is fine. but the legacy. people died for this. marvin gaye is dead. these people have died to fight. they followed me. you know, so -- and i said this 50th coming up is for them. it's not for me me. -- for these unsung heroes. because motown people that came through the time that came through cannot, not love each other. will's nothing that anybody can do about it -- there's nothing that anybody can do about it. even the white people, they came to work on 12th street in detroit, in the midst of the riots. and i said you guys better stay home. [laughter] >> you guys better be cool. get out of here. no, we come to work. we were there. and they were like brothers to us. you know? and they had a different kind barney who ran the whole thing

was a genius operation man. but he was italian. and there was people who were jewish. and then there was a crew that was mid eastern. and then there was phil jones. and i think one other person was all there. and they were like brothers to us. and they fought. it was something. so my whole thing is this is the 50th. i want these people to know that nothing has changed. you know, we're still here after all these years. i still love them the same. wherever they are. i call them up. they call me. >> i was watching a moment ago. and you used two words, and i was watching your emotion. and you said "they fought" and your hands were kind of like this. "they fought" and your hands were like this. and i was thinking about your boxing career. a lot of folks don't know that

berry gordy was a boxer. so much so that you were in the keafrl hall of fame. >> you left that and you went into the music business. what did you take from that boxing career i io if music business? did that help you in any way? >> yes. boxing was good for me. when i saw joe lewis. and he made my -- it was nazi germany vs. america, the land of the free. and america had won when he knocked out maxmeli. i was 8 years old. and i saw the joy in my mother and ther's faces. it was like the world -- america, running through the streets. it was all that. and i looked at that. as a kid of 8, i go what could i ever do in my life that would make people happy. all around but also my parent, mainly. it gave me inspiration. and so my inspiration from

there was to make people happy like that like joe lewis did. and like obama just did. [laughter] tavis: whole lot of people. >> and that was that whole thing but it was that same kind of feeling. but i was 8 years old. soy started boxing and i wanted to be champion. and i fought hard on that. joe lewis was my hero -- idol -- hero. but later on ray robinson became my idol. he feels smooth. he was sharp. and he had more girls. [laughter] >> yeah. and so -- and that was good. oh, man. i went -- win-win situation here. tavis: so one of the ways to get girls is to know how to write a good song. so you've got this boxing talent which is phenomenal. you're such a camilian. you've got this boxing talent,

but then you also write songs pretty well. how did you get into the song thing? >> i started songs when i was very young. i took one year of music lessons with my uncle who was a classical pianists. i love classical music at that time so much, and i started -- he was very strict. and he was giving me scales and i was playing them and all that. and then i would be playing them and not play a cord. and i would hear a nice melody in my head. and i just got really interested in writing out what i felt and what it would make me feel. then i realize even at an early age, that music controls you. it makes you feel what it wants you to feel. and so i noticed that as a kid. so i started playing boogie woogie. i liked her. and i started writing songs. my first song was called

"berry's boogie woogie." tavis: berry's boogie woogie. >> anyway, so that's how it started. naturally, i started writing about girls. listening to music. the mills brother. i'm going to buy a paper doll that i can call my own that fellas cannot steal. i said how clever. i was 8 or 9 10. how clever. that applies to me because -- [laughter] >> you know, i was losing girls before i even got them. [laughter] >> you know, so -- and i would listen to the songs and say that's wonderful. i feel this way. i would hear their songs. i heard nat king coal. -- cole. >> he was like romantic and up

to date. i realized that boxing and music, they really didn't -- they were both things that could get me girls, but -- but nat king cole had come along and he was romantic, and he didn't get beat up. [laughter] >> and then, you know, so then eventually, i realized that i'd have to, you know, move out of the boxing ring after i had quite a few fights. i was really fighting to be a champion. tavis: so you start writing music. we are at the owned this show. and i'm going to ask mr. gordy to do a small favor for me. i've only done this once in six years that i'veeone this show. which is to say that we ask our guest to come back. and the conversation is so rich i have to ask him to stay a few

more minutes to so we can continue tomorrow night. would you agree to that? >> absolutely. tavis: i'm going to pick up with loney tear drops. you know who wrote that? >> this guy. tavis: so we're going to talk about lonely tear drops and the rest of the motown number ones. we may have the same clothes on tomorrow night. but he's so clean, that's ok. tomorrow night we will continue our conversation as we celebrate early the 50th anniversary of motown. access or radio pot cast at -- podcast at pbs.org. good night from l.a. keep watching and keep the faith. ♪ nowhere to run to baby

nowhere to hide got nowhere to run to baby nowhere to hide ♪ i know you're stuck on me that you'll become a part of me ♪ knot >> for more information on today's show visit tavis smiley on pbs.org. tavis: join me next time for our part two conversation with civil rights attorney and political advisor vernon jordan. that's next time. we'll see you then. >> there are so many things that wal-mart is looking forward to doing, look helping people live better but mostly we're looking forward to helping build stronger communities and relationships. because of your help the best is yet to come. >> nationwide insurance proudly

supports "tavis smiley" the tavis and nationwide insurance. working to improve financial literacy and the economicimpowe >> and by contributions to your pbs sation from viewers like you. -- station from viewers like you. thank you.