>> charlie: welcome to the broadcast, tonight, the lem endear trumpet and fug i will horn player from south africa. >> the if no, ma'am none about south africa from the knowledge about sit the interest that grew over 20 years until about 1958 where there was no artist that was recording anywhere in the world. it was just universal. i think that put pressure on all of the administrations of countries all over the world.. to that extent south africa is the phenomenon because music was the major catalyst in our freedom. >> charlrl: also yusuf islam, formerly known astephen

has a new album. >> in the end, what i found, what i returned to was doing it for the sake of the fact i wanted to do it. it wasn't because i was forced because i have contract. you have to come up with six albums by this date. i was free. then music became, if you like, expression of love. something within me, as i say you can take the man out of the music but you can't take the my i can out of the man. >> charlie: we complete with british writer frances as born and her great grandmother and british society. >> she was incredibly stylish. she was a muse, she was a great fashion designer of the day. papers right across the world wrote up when she put on clothes they began to look amazing. she was incredibly sharp width. incredibly well read and she could chat to anybody. when she walked in to a room the light appeared a little

brighter. she just had it. >> charlie: music and british culture. next. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> charlie: hugh masekela is herea ledger dear trumpet and fug i will horn player. he left south afore cane theo ey

of apartheid. here is a look at hugh masekela live in concert. ♪ ♪

♪ t. >> charlie: he returned to south africa in 1909 now released his 35th studio album it is, i am pleased to have him here at this table. for the first time. welcome. >> thank you, charlie. >> charlie: great to see you. you got interested in the trumpet because of a kirk douglas movie someone told me? >> when i was six years old my parents tried to get me on the

gramophone, i was singing all over the place. they got me piano lessons. i got very in to the piano but also just became collector of music. at one time i was 1 i snuck out of high school when i was grounded to go and see this movie with my friend called "young men with a horn" that starred kirk douglas. hear james played the sound track. hear james had the most beautiful tone. and we were just obsessed when i came b bk, a few weeks later, the bishop was a major foe of apartheid was later ex spelled. he was social worker, community worker as well as major activist. he knew my parents, he said, what do you really want to do with your life?

because he traveled with all the monitors, i said, father, if i can get a trumpet i won't bother anybody any more. he got me a trumpet and a trumpet teacher. and six months later i was playing tunes on the trumpet. and other friends wanted to instrument, finally formed the band. >> charlie: became a friend of louis armstrong. >> when he was kicked out of south africa, he came to one of his missions here in the united states, and through one of the fathers was part of the community of the resurrection order in rochester was a clarinet player, they were oxbridge educated people. this man befriended louis armstrong was a great friend then fan of all the clarinet players, benny goodman he was crazy about.

he said, armstrong is playing would you like to -- he said, sure, love to see that show. then when he met armstrong he told him about the band of youths, african youths it started in outafrica. he said, well, i got to send him one of my horns! of course, that got us splashed all over the newspapers. at a time whenen louis armstrong was on tour in africa, he was banned from south africa because people of african origin who didn't come from south africa could continental come in as endangered servants or migrant laborers. when sidney porirtier came in 1951 they came to south africa as endangered servants of the directors. lieu we armstrong too much influence, but his trumpet came. it made us very famous for most of the year. we appeared in just about every

newspaper. then the music community found us and they nurtured us, five of us are still professional musicians today. >> charlie: five from that group. >> yeah.charlie: you stay in touch? >> oh, yeah. we're very good friends. we are all alive. i got meet louis armstrong about six years later when i was in school i went to the grammy awards. and he just said, the one thing you have got never to forget is where you came from. because when i talk, i never finish any sentence without talking about new orleans. >> charlie: new orleans, yes. when you came to the united states that was like -- >> 1960, september of 1960. >> charlie: of '06. >> i came here when kennedy and nixon were campaigning. >> charlie: did you see the debate? >> first of all i had to decipher it for myself. being that bee never got to vote in south africa then we didn't

even know whats about. it just what happened in the white part of the community. of society. and i couldn't believe all the flags and how they meet up on television and how they put each other down and -- i was like, damn, you know. now, we've seen it happen in many places. >> charlie: you knew 30 years later you always knew you'd go back? >> i'd hoped to go back after four years. >> charlie: four years. >> i came to the school of music, miriam mcgiver brought me from england where huddleston got me a schololship in to the guild hall. miriam made a splash, on and off lovers and she said, come here, man. she send me to the school of music and got dizzy gillespie to commend me then.

she asked bellafonte. fortunately i was able to vindicate the belief in me. in 1963, i was ready to go back, i'd finished four years at manhattan. harry belfonte said with the kind of mouth you have, and the kind of -- the kind of like association you have with i and miriam who have been banned already two or three times, you just going to disappear, they won't know. why don't you stay here try to make a name for yourself. by then, i had formed my own group, because i had hoped to play like that. then go back and teach. he said, mandela have been sentenced to death you're going back there? so, i said, how am i going to make it here? how do i know i'm going to make it? he said, listen, we've helped you enough so far, you're ing to. if you make it, then you'll have

access to the medialhave visibik about your country as much as you want to. and i can get a break. >> charlie: as authentic voice. one of your great relationships of your life. >> right. was a dear friend. >> charlie: you said lover, friend. >> i met miriam when i was 17, she was about 24. and we became very, very close. we were anchored in to town ship life in south africa. both had great ambition, we didn't know who would go overseas first, but we knew we were going to go. when she got here, we'd been corresponding, she introduced me to dizzy to, j.j. johnson to, miles and all. finally she said, come over here. even when we parted we worked together on many tours all over the world.

the thing that i was most admirable about miriam she educated so many of us. sent so many of us to school. she would tour all the refugee camps in africa, buy the medicines, bring bundles of clothes and she raised money for the patriotic front of zimbabwe, for mozambique and others. for the anc and i don't think anybody did for africa in the history of africa as much as miriam did. every president in the world bowed at her feet. when she opened her mouth to sing it was very few, if any, singers who could match the magic that came out. >> charlie: she had voice that matched her heart. >> oh, yeah. i think that she's like louis armstrong, somebody that cannot

be mourned, shee celebrated. >> charlie: you've said that before. when it went back, what were you expecting? >> well, i wasn't that uninformed because, charlie, i lived in botswana for five years, i realized that i wouldn't go back to south africa, chances are so slim and friend of mine, who was major activist himself, was living in botswana, we'd grown up together, he said, in england where you live, you just statistic. if you come here, you can impart knowledge, what you wanted to do when you went to the states. we were right next door to musicians, every weekend. i started a band then, my record company brought a mobile studio we started music school as well. we're so busy that it became a

cultural center of south africa. then apartheid government death squad came in, they rubbed out about 14 people, including my friend who told me to come to live in botswana and his brother who was visiting. so, i had to leave again. now i was really sure that the chances were very slim, these guys were very serious just keeping activist. they were doing in all the neighboring countries. then in '89 a friend of mine, i went to visit south africa -- botswana a friend of mine said to me, bring your things to the border. you'll be coming home next year. i thought he was joking. until my sister with miriam and mandela called me in may of 1909 said, come home. >> charlie: come home. mandela means what to you? >> i think that he was a symbol

of the soul of south africans. he showed a side of south offer cans, we'd been at war for maybe like 350 years. until we're conquered, but at first like we started with hospitality. and just gave things away, then one day we woke up, it took us another 00 years. i think what mandela was doing and others they all geezers came out, from an island, they put mandela on as symbol, but the thing that they said was, don't burn your country down like other people do, but let us build this country with those oppressed us. and make it the great country it can be, that's the potential we have. nobody could have put it for us any better.

because that really avoided probably what would have been a very bad blood bath, because people had been -- already going at each other. in fact when i came b bk to south africa it was a time of a lot of internal conflicts between different parties and extremists and citizens, defense groups. it was really like a time of snipers and all that. they were able to like just spread the message and a feeling of peace. >> charlie: whahado you think of jacob zuma? >> i think that he has chance, if he fulfills what he has said he will, he has chance because he's a person who comes from the grass roots. he's not learned person. he is very close to like an african cultural heritage.

he might bees a lot of help. because i think we've reached mature, we're state of maturity politically. this was our fourth election. it's time that we build the country instead of making it a platform for bickering. >> charlie: talk about your music. take a look at this. this is clip of you playing mandela "bring it back home." ♪

>> charlie: tell me about paul simon and graceland. >> i first met paul simon in 1965. 18966 we had the same producer, the late tom wilson who is also producing bob dylan at the time. he would become a vice president of mgm, paul had come to let him listen to his new album. i remember it was playing "rosemary," the song for him, just beautiful. and then introduced us. we met again at the monterey pop festival. nine years later i was living in london after fleeing from botswana gibb, paul was in town. called me said, i just did this

i suspect that maybe it will dof flack for having gone there. but i just admired the music so much. i don't know what to do. i'm thinking of doing a tour, but i worked with more than a hundred people. and then said you can cut it down to, just integrated band and i would play with the band as well. you already have "black mombaso. and let's bring miriam in also. he asked for a number. six months later, he called me to say when can we start rehearsing. we went all over the world. we played to millions of people. i think the album went to sell ten million albums. >> charlie: here is what he said about the music on this show. >> most of the political insights that i have ever

gathered have become from musicians from other cultures, other countries. >> charlie: you mean freedom, human rights. >> just what's really going on in the country. like what was really going on in south africa at the time. >> charlie: is there a song that personified that for you? >> no. in the case of south africa, it wasn't a song. it was just talking to musicians who are, in my case, the guy who was my mentor was hugh masekela, who grew up in a political environment. was also an extraordinary flugelhorn and jazz player and understand the music and culture. but also understood the politics, he would explain, this is what the anc stands for, this is what the su -- zulus or. >> the musicians often have insight in to the culture that you never see in -- on an op ed

page. >> charlie: that's in part the role of musicians, isn't ite culture and give it expression and music? >> i think so. i think musicians, over the years have done in expressing the soul of the people. from the gregorian chants right through beethoven, it was always about the quality and folk songs of the people. i think the phenomenon about south africa from the time miriam imparted knowledge about it is the interest that grew over 20 years until about 1958 where there was no artist that was recording anywhere in the world without including in the cds a song that said "free south offer could" or "down with apartheid" it was universal that put pressure on all the administrations of countries all over the world. to that extent, south africa is the phenomenon because music was

a major catalyst in our freedom. and i think that the vehicle that was the most powerful at the height of the anti-apartheid music was "graceland" we traveled the whole world over two years, and it was a kaleidoscope of south african culture without preaching. and i think maybe over ten million people who had never heard about south africa before. got information for the first time. >> charlie: this album, this latest cd "phola" which means -- >> healing, get well. relax, be cool. chill. [laughter] v. >> charlie: it's very good to have you here. >> thank you very much for inviting me. it's been a real pleasure.

>> charlie: yusuf islam is here. many will remember him as cat stevens, the singer-songwriter who became a pop star at age 18. in the '70s his song "peace train" wild world" and "moon shadow" was mainstay. he produced eight albums. he sold more than 06 million albums. here is look at his work yesterday and today. ♪

♪ >> >> charlie: in 1977 stevens converted to islam and left the public arena. in his words, he got a life. he is today a flappist and established -- therapist, three years he -- flappist. his latest am bum is "road singer" pleased to have him here at the table for the first time.

welcome. >> thank you. >> charlie: nice to have you here. you saw a journey on that tape, when you see it, what emotions come to you? >> well, it's the same old heart, you know, that's the point. no man changes his heart. but of course it's a great thing to have your life on record, on film, to be able -- >> charlie: on videotape, look at it. i'm not sure it's great. thrts. >> i was a good looking guy, i think, i can take it. i'm sure you can, too, charlie. it was a life which sometimes i find difficult to remember everything about it. just pinnacles, you knkn. but it was a time when i really

didn't know what was going to happen next. and that, i think, was one of the things that drove me to try to find out a little bit more about life and this universe and spiritual questions which are unsettling unless they have answers. >> charlie: you have never regretted the journey. >> absolutely not. i think we would never -- we wouldn't be the people we are today if we weren't who we were yesterday and whatever problems or mistakes we made. that makes us human. it makes us darks darks help us to learn. >> charlie: was it because in the beginning of the near drowning? >> well, that was just one of the incidents to be honest. i used to, even going back about when i was about 14, 15 years. i used to climb roofs around the area of london, west end. one day, you know, i was losing grip. he grabbed me, that could have been it. so there are certain times in

your life when realize, it's a turning point. >> charlie: how is it different today to create music? >> is easy. i've been given some kind of gift or something m kind of key, i don't know what it is. a key of life, stevie wonder talked about it. something that comes naturally, it cook back to me. i hadn't played the guitar like, close to about 25 years. i put it away. one day i picked it up again. it was because my son had brought the guitar back in to the house. i was not expecting this, you know. and suddenly there it was again. this was about 2001, something like that. i picked it up. it just felt, it was all there. everything. >> charlie: what was everything? >> the inspiration. because i never began with kind

of bucks in my eyes. i had a certain dream and vision and this vision, i used to be a painter. i turned in to music. i started painting songs, if you like. >> charlie: when your son brought the guitar back, was that the beginning of saying, i want to do this again? >> it wasn't really. i was very cautious, i took it slow. nobody knew what was happening. more or less the way i was reading the koran, actually, when i was first reading. i kept it to myself. until the day i said, you know what, really? so, pretty similar. i just kept this thing private. then what happened, there was tsunami, the tsunami shook me because i was in that area of the indian ocean about one year before that, we were on one of these little islands no bigger than that table.

you know, imagined what could have happened. i wrote this little song while i was on holiday, then the tsunami happened. i said, my god. then i developed that song. i got some musicians together we went in to the studio that was the first song i ever did, it was a charity. song for the victims of the tsunami. called "indian ocean" and that was the beginning. then somebody heard i recorded something, then came seeking me out. hiss name was steve buckinghingham from nashville. a great guy. he was convincing me to come to nashville. i was playing hard to get. i said, well, i counted how many songs i had by that time. okay, i'll come. then of course, i made this amazing journey over with my daughter. you probably know what happened next. the reception i received, not in

nashville, but in bang gore, maine, i never even heard of the place before, sorry about that, i'm british. british should know the area. then all that happened, they said, is your name yusuf islam? yeah. how do you spell it? i went, y-u-s-u-f. surere you want to spell it -- . i don't. i thought it was case ofmiss in that identity. anyway, we're back. i've got a song about that, too. >> charlie: we're back, means what? >> back in new york. great. back in u.s. it's great. not only that, back with a lot of my friends and fans and people who have kind of missed me and they felt that i was a little bit abrupt. >> charlie: yes, i would say so. >> i'm trying to mend that. >> charlie: by seeking out friends and getting on the road

again? >> yeah. >> charlie: and listening and hearing and being interviewed, all that have? >> and it's a wonderful, wonderful reception. >> charlie: : this is music video "boots in sand" featuring people who you know. paul mccartney, dolly parson and allison kruausse. ♪

♪ i'm back on the long, long road. a little prayer in my hand ♪ just me boots and sand ♪ boots and sand ♪ >> charlie: what role do you have in terms much the life that you have led in islam? >> i think i've been given a unique position, i may not have appreciated it in the beginning. i may have wanted to just escape from everything i built up around me. in some ways, as a star. but when it comes down to sharing what i've gathered, i do want to share it. because one of the things i

learned -- one of the things i wrote about was peace. now that is the heart and soul of everything i've wanted all my life. peace and happiness,. happiness is that illusive quality which doesn't really arrive just through material things. you have to go to a place almost within yourself. to get there. peace is similar. if people look in this world for like a beautiful garden, ideal i can place, yeah, you can do that. but you know even if you go to the furthest place in this world, you won't reach it until you find it within you. that's the kind of thing i want to share. unfortunately people when they look at headlines, don't reel lay get there. they don't get the message it's helping. music is probably the best way i could use to convey what's in my heart. >> charlie: that's what's interesting where you are and what you can do and where you are now. you can combine the two. whatever insights you have in to peace and what insights you have in to finding your soul, and

your ability to express it. >> true. >> charlie: to a wider audience. >> true. and it's a beautiful thing. the fact that it's still there means that god wants me to do it. if i couldn't write a good song again i may give up. >> charlie: did you worry about that? >> well, you always -- i suppose suppose -- do you. in the end what i found, what i returned to was doing it for the sake of the fact i wanted to do it. it wasn't because i was forced because i had contract s says you have to come up with six albums. by this date, by this date. i was free. then music became, if you like, expression of love. something that was in me. as i say you can take man out of the music but you can't take the music out of the man. >> all right. this is "road singer" welcome home to the song" thinking about you" what's that about?

>> having a person in this world makes it better. knowing that that person is around contrs "a world of darkness." >> that's partly to do with the musical i'm writing. >> charlie: "moon shadow." >> that's the my i can. i've been wig it -- writing it about seven years. this is like the prelude. actually describes the world that we're about to enter. which is a world of permanent night time where there's only a moon which provides natural light. people have to work, struggle all their life to pay for light and heat. sounds similar, charlie to, something that we're experiencing right now. >> charlie: is that the stimulus for it? >> no. it coincides with that. but the same time darkness, as i talked about before, in connection with light, there is materialism, sometimes i'm afraid brings a kind of darkness. it's not the same as switching off the light. something else.

so, light is something very precious in our lives. we don't appreciate the sun sometimes. we expect it. we expect it. but if we really take another look, morning is broken, it's a big message. >> charlie: it's clear you're back. you are embarked on a continuing journey and another chapter. >> yes. the journey doesn't stop. you may reach certain parts of your destination but if you for ask me the best thing that ever happened in my life. i say, i don't think it's happened yet. >> charlie: so do i. thank you. great to see you. >> thank you. >> charlie: frances osborn iss here, she was 13 years old when she learned the identity of her great grandmother. she was a glamorous woman with notorious reputation. after her first marriage

collapsed she fled england for den i can't leaving behind her two children. she was ultimately married and divorced five times. british society was shocked when news of her scandalous behaviory colonial set became public. osborn's new book about her great grandmother called "the bolter" i was us an intimate look at her life. i'm pleased to have frances osborn here. >> thank you. >> charlie: why this book? >> why this book? >> charlie: why not this book. >> imagine being 13, made you imagine to be femalea 13 year old girl you open the newspapers one sunday morning, there, the top of the newspapers is picture of woman standing in a 1920s outfit in africa, between a pair of elephant tusks. underneath is written the headline "aristocrats, alcohol and adultery" a serializati,n about the murder of, a british earl back in the 19 -- second

world war. and this man, errol was the third of her five husbands. it described this woman who welcomed her guests as she lay naked in the bath, served them cocktails in her bathroom. fed them a four-course french meal in her farmhouse high up in the african mountains then after dinner made them play games to see who was going to end up in bed with whom that night. >> charlie: a bit of wife swapping as we would say. >> yeah. or even more wife swapping sounds, organized games. she was called the high priestess of these ceremonies, i was 13, my sister was 11. my streets tore wanted to read her. i told her she was too young. we took this article to my parents, my father began to laugh. my mother went bright red. my father said, you have to tell them. my mother said, this woman was my grandmother. i mean, i was hooked. one of the key things about

idena she was not born a great beauty. but she managed to make herself incredibly attractive. there was -- >> charlie: by her wit, style? >> shef these things. she was stylish, a muse for the great nags designer of the day. papers right across the world wrote up when she put on clothes they began to look amazing. she was incredibly sharp-width. incredibly well read and she could chat to anybody. they say that when she walked in to a room the lights appeared a little brighter. she just had "it." >> charlie: tell me about her first marriage. >> her first marriage was to a dashing young handsome cavalry officer who was a scot just inherited $2 million pounds in cash in 1913. hundreds of millions of dollars basically. they had -- the interesting thing that he was classically very good looking. idena wasn't classically good

looking, this ability to make herself attractive that won him. they were madly in love, i have his diaries which start in 1917. in the middle of the f fst world war where he was fighting in france. they describe how idena risked the u-boats to cross the channel and meet him in paris. there they would have these extremely passionate weekends. in his diary she wrote various things like, little one, the only woman, wick the little creature. or even "little one, extracted a large ring by everything as only she knows how." they were very much together as a couple. but by the end of the first

world war, their marriage had been pulled apart. >> charlie: by what? >> partly by the war. >> charlie: distance. >> in fact it wasn't distancest. it was being nearby. if you had two weeks leave those were the only weeks youo party . he didn't wait for her to get better. very, very beautiful woman who was the daughter of a famous british architect called edwin, she was called barbie decided that uwin wallace was precisely the sort of husband she would like. >> charlie: what happened? >> -- >> he was my great grandfather. idena got better. fought back, didn't win her huhuand was still clearly in love with this other woman. barbie was not sleeping with him. he was sleeping with somebody else. barbie was too clever to realize if she started sleeping with this man, she just be an affair.

not the woman he would marry. idena took a lover herself. >> charlie: right. >> they all -- we're talking edwardian era. people operated in different way. >> charlie: was she well-known by this time? >> was idena well-known? yes. she was very well-known, she'd been written up in the papers, in the united states, spent quite some time here. she was one of those lively spirits that lifted things up. also, other young women went around in white dresses, idena had a black dress. >> charlie: what was her mother like? >> the key thing about idena that she came from this maternal line of strong women. you have to look at her grandmother, annie brassie the first person, not the first woman to circumnavigate the world by steam yacht. in the 1807s instead of taking

leaving her children at home took them on board, 4,000 books, sailed around the world, wrote a book about it. voyage in the sunbeam. textbook throughout the united states and rest of the. still in print today. meanwhile, she sent her husband, she was very much breaking the rules, wanted to actively break, enhance women lived in those days. she was doing, this she sent her husband back home to parliament on strict instructions to campaign for women's suffrage, which he did. >> charlie: he was very public. ewan was very public, right? >> it was -- yes. he did. it was -- key thing was that he was going around, edwardian times you could have affairs, this was post-edwardian, you could have affairs as long nobody found out. the actress, mrs. patrick campbell said, you can do what you like in the bedroom, but don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. ewan was very clearly going to

spend time with barbie and her closest friends, one of whom ewan was sleeping with. the other. of whom was idena's sister, key int. instead of idena. >> charlie: have you changed your mind how you see him in the relationships and how these characters unfolded? decisions they made, what they did? >> yes. i started this book, i started the research, i started looking at this amazing treasure trove of diaries. having been told that idena was totally in the wrong that she had simply walked out of a happy marriage. what is quite interesting, i've been on a journey because first of all i learned that this wasn't the case. i was furious with ewan and many people who read the book are like, she had to leave him. she had no choice. because he was in love with someone else. but then the more i've looked at the period and looked at thear you see this way in which it's not just the separation. war but sort of destruction of

all accepted values. that happened during the first world war. how that changed things and pulled things apart. i sort of in ad why at first he started running around with a group of young girls who were not lying in bed like idena was. maybe i'm a little -- writing book like this, these people did behave appallingly which makes them so fascinating. it just teaches you to be a bit more accepting and understanding. you have to look at things in the framework of the morals and behavior of that time. then accept that everyone is different. >> charlie: how were the morals and framework of our time today different than the morals and framework of that time? >> there isn't really sort of systematic institutionlized procedure for adultery now as there was then. this was round about up to the end ever the first world war and

afterwards some people say still exists in places today there was something called the mulbra house rules. that is where queen victoria's eldest son, the future king edward the 7th lived. while he was waiting to become king, he started taking many, while he was king he took many mistresses amongst beautiful women of the day. fist friends followed, what the royal family did set pattern of what was permissible. the rules were as follows: you took lovers amongst your friends ascesis wives or wives amongst ur friend wives. woman had to have had two children called an heir and spare, preferably boys to make sure the property, whoever the father of her children, the property would at least stay within her husband's family. relationships were usually conducted between five and seven, hence the frame "in the afternoon" i think the reasons

for this were entirely practical. women's corsets were very hard to lace supremely tightly to get as thin as you possibly could be. woman in this society needed her mate to help her. you couldn't really wait until somebody turned up then call the maid in send her out. the maid at 5:00 would take her out of her tea gown leave her alone until 7:00 in the evening when she would return to be dressed for the evening. >> charlie: would you have written this book without the diaries? >> no. >> charlie: it really was unlocking of historic -- >> yes. i would not have written the book without the diaries. it would have -- i would not have been able to get the sort of depth of understanding of really seeing the sort of heartbreaking that led somebody to behave sod withly. >> charlie: but a lot, she then goes to india, to kenya, correct? >> yes. >> charlie: to happy valley,

was it? >> called happy valley. became known as happy valley after everyone learned about the game she was playing. >> charlie: but that's when it gets interesting, isn't it? >> yes. it gets extremely interesting. there was an abandonedment of the social rules there. idena's mother, grandmother broken social rules, her mother had been a key woman sufferragist, introduced the labor party. and divorced her husband spectacularly, broken the rules in this way. idena chose to break the rules she did so in kenya. by behaving sexually as men could. it was more permissible for men to take multiple lovers. idena -- >> charlie: decided she could. >> yes. it was also extremely interesting in terms of kenyan life was extremely -- africa is fantastic continent.

it's hop not i can, life there is very exciting because you're on the edge of physical danger so much of the time. idena had farm there, she was a very successful farmer,e bred the best jersey dairy herd. she introduced the crop, worked very hard. but that also meant they played very hard. very what happens to her? she goes to keny what happens to her? >> she goes to kenya -- >> charlie: creates a life. >> she has four husbands. she builds beautiful homes then she comes back to england and again meets the children from whom she was separated when she left her first husband. this meeting her son changes her life, there is -- they're has different as they can. she is who she s. he is a would-be priest. they find complete oneness and understanding. this causes her to, shortly

after towards take on two step children, a very hands-on full-time mother. redeems herself in this way. >> charlie: how old is she when she dies? >> dies in her 50s. in her early 60s. thing is that what goes around comes around. idena later in life becomes a good mother then one by one every single one of those children are taken from her. >> charlie: here she is pained by sir william erpen in 18915. look at this. this is picture that's on the back of the book as well. number two is her engagement photo. number three is ewan and sons after she left in 1919. there he is. number four is another photograph of her. where does the title come? >> the boltera woman who runs away from her husband. who bolts. there is very famous -- the 1920s and '30s were age of bolters because women were

finding their independence at this time. the writer nancy mintford -- >> charlie: based her cake after. >> she probably based on several people of the day. idena was the most infamousr thd similarities. >> charlie: between her character -- >> and idena. >> your other life in addition to this come from prominent political family. >> in my spare time. >> george osborn is chancellor, all of us know equivalent to being secretary of the treasury. if in fact there's a conservative government he will be the principle finance man for british government. you ready for that? >> am i ready for that? >> we have slightly sort of more disjointed husband and wife role in britain. >> charlie: how is that? >> you don't expect the wife to play -- >> charlie: you don't campaign for him? >> you do campaign. doesn't sort of, not like both of you doing the job. >> charlie: if he becomes

member of the prime minister's cabinet, what i am pact will it have on your life? >> he will be busier. and he will be even busier. >> charlie: lieu like politics. >> find it fascinating. i've grown up with it. >> charlie: married to it. >> i've grown up to it. once of sort of been surrounded by that, watching the 10:00 news to try to work out when my father would be home. now try to figure out when my husband will be home. i don't think i could have fallen in love with somebody who wasn't doing something to try to improve other people's lives. or do spend their life looking outwards rather than inwards. >> charlie: you want to write about family. >> they were both researched as the basis of a novel. both cases agents and publishers persuaded me. >> charlie: the real story. >> because it was so strong and had so much material. now historical fiction.

>> charlie: that's where you are. >> i'm work on novel set in london in 1866. >> charlie: what's wrong with history, period? >> i am not a historian. >> charlie: you don't want to be the next antonio frazier? >> anto r is a fantastic woman. she is very -- she's historian. i'm not a historian. i know about people. that's what i'm interested in. people. >> charlie: what about people are you interested? >> i am interested in the decisions people make that affect their lives. i'm interested in those passing moments when you decide to do one thing or another. the consequences of what happens. >> charlie: the passing moments your life? >> in my life. probably when i decided whether or not to go to the prepared's house which i meant and met my husband. am i going to go there today or not. i remember deciding whether to go or not.

probably when i went to a friend's book launch and talked to her publisher about the idea i had for the first book, he said -- i didn't know whether i was going to get there. he said, go home and write, this is an idea, you have a book. >> charlie: what did you most like about idena when you strip it all away, was it the fact that this woman took charge of her own life and created her own world? >> yes. i like had she -- that she did not feel confined or constrained by convention. that she was willing to step outside of that, take very brave, bold step. i also admire her optimism. five marriages, thinking each time that this is the one. certainly optimistic. in a strange way it was that very optimism that was her distraction. >> charlie: she died satisfied and happy? >> she died having passed

through extreme tragedies, and then found some relationship rebonded with her daughter. she died believing that she was about to see her daughter, that her daughter was going to do what shene which was come visit her in africa. >> charlie: "the bolter" the wild, beautiful, fearless, descendent who went off to kenya in search of kenya. became known as the high priestess of the happy valley. >> thank you. >> charlie: thank you for joinings. see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org