>> rose: welcome to the broadcast. we come to you this evening from washington and we begin with egyptian president hosni mubarak who was on this program last night. today he met with president obama at the white house. >> he wanted to get in his thoughts to president obama before obama makes any kind of an announcement of some sort of a peace initiative. and so i don't think that president mubarakut anything new as far as i've heard in terms of ideas, but he's really trying to press obama, i think, to be very forceful in this initiative and in effect to try to impose some kind of a solution on the region. >> the whole idea of a gesture from the arab world is to make these t israelis feel more comfortable about these very hard decisions that are going to come, whether it's settlement

freeze, borders, refugees, thes by position of jerusalem and so on and so forth. but, again, the arab world believes that they have gone as far as they could possibly go. just because they're authoritarian regimes doesn't mean public opinion doesn't count in these places. >> rose: we conclude this evening with what some say is the most important bilateral relationship in the world. it is between china and the united states. for china's perspective, we turn to china's ambassador to the united states. >> china's development will be peaceful, china's development is opportunity for each, including the united states. china's development should not be viewed as a threat and we don't want to be a threat, we want to live in peace with everyone. >> rose: mubarak and obama, china and the united states. next.

captioning sponsored by rose communications >> rose: as many of you know, we had a conversation with egyptian president hosni mubarak on friday in cairo. today president mubarak was in washington meeting with president obama. it was president mubarak's first visit to washington in five years after cooling in u.s. relations during the bush administration. the trip comes as the obama administration is deeply involved in trying to break a dead locke in middle east peace

talks. it wants israel to halt settlement activities and is asking arab leaders to make concessions to move the process forward. the two presidents spoke after the meeting this afternoon. >> ( translated ): we need to move to the final status level and i have contacted the israelis and they said perhaps we can talk about the temporary solution or perhaps a final status, but i told them no, forget about the temporary solution and forget about temporary borders. that's why i came today to talk to president obama and to see that if we move forward on this issue, it will give more hope and more confidence to the people about this issue. >> one of the things that you discover in studying history and being a part of politics is just because something makes sense doesn't mean it happens. and we are going to have to work very hard and ultimately that's going to have to be some

courageous leadership not only from the palestinians and the israelis but also from the other arab states to support this effort. >> rose: joining me now, michele dunn of the carnegie endowment for international peace and steven cook. thank you for coming. let me start with you, michele. tell me what came out of this, if anything, mubarak, obama, first visit. what do each side hope to get out of this? >> well, mubarak was really eager to reestablish for all to see the fact that he's back in the good graces ofin and of the white house. >> rose: and that he's healthy and moving. >> that's true. and i think he got that out of his visit. he also really played up the fact that before the visit he wanted to get in his thoughts to president obama before obama makes any kind of an announcement of some sort of a peace initiative. and so i don't think that

president mubarak really brought anything new as far as i've heard in terms of ideas, but he's really trying to press obama, i think, to be very forceful in this initiative and in effect to try to impose some kind of a solution on the region. >> are the egyptians successful at all in trying to bring together fatah and hamas? >> they've been working at this for a couple of years now. they haven't been successful. they're launching a new shuttle diplomacy effort now instead of convening the two factions in cairo which they've been doing for months and months. but i have to say, frankly, i think this is a very difficult thing to do. and i'm not that optimistic that the egyptians are going to be able to pull it together unless there's some big development in the larger picture that would really motivate the palestinians to pull themselves together. >> so what's in it for washington. >> well, what's in it for washington is essentially trying to enlist the egyptians in the wider world in helping to foster

an environment for peace. >> rose: but aren't they on board? >> well, they are on board but the conversation has shifted in washington from pressure on the israelis regarding settlement construction to what are the arabs going to give back for this halting of settlement construction. >> rose: at least a gesture of some kind. >> at least a gesture of some sort to the israeli people that will make the israelis feel more comfortable about a settlement freeze. the arabs on principle state "look, the egyptians have a peace treaty, they engage in security cooperation with the israelis, what more can they possibly do given the situation in th k and the gaza strip?" the saudis, the other big arab heavyweight respondents say, look, we have tabled the arab initiative, it has been on the table since prince, 2002. that offers israel normal relations once there's a deal between the israelis and the palestinians. so the arab world isn't inclined to give president obama that gesture that he's been seeking

to create this environment. >> rose: now what gesture would say to the obama administration they're trying? >> well, i think that if president mubarak had agreed to go back to arab leaders as a leader in the arab arena and try to push this process forward and if president mubarak himself has agreed to do something. as i said, nobody in the region is inclined to do these kinds of things. there's been ideas that have been floated allowing the israelis civilian airliners access to saudi airspace, returning arab trade representatives to tel aviv and so on and so forth. but the arab world believes they've been there and they've done that. they did that in the 1990s and we're in a worse situation than we were back in the 1990s. so they're not going to give something for essentially what they see as nothing. >> rose: nothing in terms of right to return and some modification of that so that it's more acceptable to the israelis? >> precisely. this... the whole idea of a gesture from the arab world is to make the israelis feel more

comfortable about these very hard decisions that are going to come, whether it's settlement freeze, borders, refugees, the disposition of jerusalem and so on and so forth. but, again, the arab world sees... believes that they have gone as far as they could possibly go. just because they're authoritarian regimes doesn't mean public opinion doesn't count in these places and they don't believe that they have... their political systems have the caring carrying capacity to do much more than they've already done. >> rose: they're trying hard, are they not, with general suliman meeting with the israelis including.ks there talm and hamas and... >> yes, there's been an active diplomatic effort that general suliman, the director of intelligence, in egypt has been in charge of. there have been many rounds of talks in cairo. the egyptians even tried imposing deadlines and they found it just didn't work. the two palestinian parties-- hamas and fatah-- are pretty far

apart, don't right now have a lot of motivation to come back together. >> rose: the central criticism of egypt the nature of the government and the nature of mubarak's regime, or is it something else? >> well, if you mean the central criticism inside egypt itself among egyptians, yes, would be the... that would be the fact that.... >> rose: it's an autocratic regime? >> an autocratic regime, there's many human rights abuses and generally sort of a poor quality of governance. things don't run well. educational services, health services, etc., are poor. and egyptians look at their country and other countries like them and they see that other countries have progressed much further in terms of economic development, political development, human rights and so forth. and so there definitely is a sense in egypt that the country has stagnated. >> but is there some change in terms of entrepreneurial activity and that kind of thing? because there has been some

influx of new and younger people in the n.d.p. under mubarak. >> there has been a serious program of economic reform. >> rose: right. >> over about the last four years. >> rose: not political, economic. >> this is structural economic reform and it's very good in its own way. i mean, the banking sector, they've done a lot of things to attract investment and they've been successful in that. the problem with this is this kind of economic reform takes years in order for the benefits to truck down and actually bring about an improved standard of living for the population and they're far from that at this point. >> and, in fact, there are strikes today in the industrial center. people who are protesting theirg conditions, lack of representation on state-sponsored unions. so essentially the macroeconomic picture of egypt looks good over the course of the last couple years, but essentially they've impovred the country to get there. >> rose: that brings me to succession. when i was in egypt last week,

that's all they talk about. >> succession is the megaissue now. >> every cafe, every friend, everybody. >> rose: there is this very prolonged transition going on. >> rose: what do you think is the reality of succession? >> i think the reality right now is that president mubarak is reluctant to leave office himself. he's giving indications that he may well run again even two years from now when he's 83 and has been in power for 30 years. >> rose: his answer to me was repeatedly "i have two years to decide." >> yes, yes. but there have been a few other indications that perhaps if his health permits that he would even be thinking of running again at this point. i think the succession is they don't feel it's fully arranged. but clearly his son has been positioned in every way through the constitution, through the ruling party, through new laws that have been passed and so forth to be the logical candidate for the ruling party to put up in presidential

elections after president mubarak lis. that's not the only possibility for succession. there's still the possibility of someone from the military or intelligence stepping in, but there has definitely been a large sort of framework set up for guamel mubarak to succeed. >> rose: and no one will succeed without the approval of the military? >> that's correct. >> i think it's an informal requirement for egyptian presidents. all military officers. >> rose: all the continuing of an idea. >> exactly. exactly. and there have been indications over the course of the last couple years that gamel mubarak, who does not have a military bacd, has been seeking to qop relations and cultivate military officers so that he ensure at that crucial moment of a transition he will have the support of the officer corps. we, of course, don't know whether he's been successful at that. but i think as michelle pointed out, the table has essentially been set. if there was a nomination process, g, amel mubarak would

be the only one who the national democratic party could nominate for the position or logically nominate for the position. >> rose: i want both of you to sum up the significance, the importance in terms of the future of the middle east of egypt. >> egypt is the largest arab country. one out of every four arabs is egyptian. and so what happens in egypt counts tremendously for the rest of the arab world and the rest of the arab world, although egypt is not the only country with education the way it used to be, it's still tremendously important. and so, you know, whether or not there will be some sort of reform, some sort of move toward a more open political system and so forth in egypt is hugely important for the rest of the region. >> i would agree 100%. egypt is a bellwether of the region. if there's some sort of democratic break through in egypt, it will affect the rest of the region. but the reverse is also the case. a narrower dictatorship will affect the rest of the region. we shouldn't lose sight of the

fact with all of the emphasis ond is, pakistan, iraq, egypt is the intellectual center of transnational jihadism. it springs from there. yes, osama bin laden is saudi, ayman al-zawahiri is egyptian and al qaeda is essentially an egyptian organization. so this is a very important country has tremendous opportunity but also can be very scary. >> rose: deep roots in everything arab. >> yes. absolutely. they really do. i mean, even the opposition groups and so forth we've seep spring up in egypt inspire copycats where in the arab world. used t be the egyptian government under nasser that led. now it's not so much the egyptian government but still the egyptian people and the things that they do, the new egyptian media and so forth inspire imitation elsewhere in the arab world. >> rose: >> the way in which the united states has cultural hodge gemini in the world, egypt has it in

the region. if you're in morocco and you're speaking egyptian arabic, they say so you're speaking must bey arabic. that's why it's important. i was in kuwait on iraq's first elections in wife the, kuwaitis said "this is great for iraq but if it happened in egypt, it would shake the region." >> rose: fee venn cook, thank you. >> thank you. >> rose: i'm in washington, d.c. with zhou wenzhong. he has served as china's ambassador to the united states since 2005. he is a key figure in which what some call the most important bilateral relationship in the world. he works on a range of issues important to both countries, including trade, taiwan, north korea, climate change, and the economy. as the economic crisis has spread, he has said that china and the united states now share a greater responsibility for global stability and peace.

i am pleased to have the ambassador on this program for the first time. welcome. >> thank you. >> rose: you have said... you have said this is the most important bilateral relationship in the world. what makes it so? >> i'm not the only one who is saying this, charlie. there are other people who have said the same thing. i think it's true that the relationship that china and the united states have assumed great global significance. china is the largest developing country, the u.s. being the largest developed country. if we could work together and we can solve many global issues. and the global issues need global solutions. so if we can work together, it will be easier for these solutions to be worked out. >> rose: let's walk through those issues. >> yeah. >> rose: climate change is one big issue. >> right. >> rose: our secretary of state spoke to that when she was in china. what progress are we making and

what are the difficulties that face the two countries because they are at different stages in their development. >> there will be a copenhagen conference and china takes a very positive attitude to the conference and we hope the conference will be a success and i think the key to that is for all the members of the united nations that work together and also to carry out negotiations according to... in accordance with the mandate of the bali road map. and basically there are several things. one is developed countries should take the lead in reducing the emissions of carbon dioxide and also developed countries i hope will do more in providing technology and funding to developing countries. in other words, to help them to

achieve the reduction. and, of course, developing countries should do their part as well. within the framework of sustainable development. >> rose: is it impossible for china to meet certain emissions standards without restraining its economic development? >> i think we are doing what we should do. one of the things we have enacted a number of laws such as energy saving act and renewable energy resources act and also national programs forg with climate change. and we have set a goal voluntarily. that is that the change in 2010 will reduce the energy intensity by 0%. that is the consumption of energy by 20%.

and so between 2005 and 2008 i think we have consumed about 300 million tons of coal... no, less and so if you transform that into carbon dioxide, that is we have reduced emissions of about one billion tons of carbon dioxide and i think we'll continue to do that. so according to the special envoy for climate change, china will annoyance nouns a time for the peek. >> rose: has china made a commitment to be the world's leader in dealing with climate change, with environmental questions in developing technology, in making national moves that will show the world what's possible and put china in an enviable position in the future? >> china can't do the job by itself, just by itself. i think we need to work

together. everyone. doing its part. including china. then i think the job can be done. >> rose: but the point is the deeper one in a sense. my friend tom freedman has raised this question. whoever tuz the most in terms of developing the technology for dealing with these environmental questions, the rest of the world will have to beat. >> but.... >> rose: a path to their doorstep. >> right. because china is a country with the largest population. but in per capita, china is not really the largest emitter. >> rose: right.> d historicallys been developing and growing very fast, just over the last 30 years. i think we must have historical sense and also the per capita factor elements should be.... >> rose: china should be judged by different standards than the

developed world? >> not different standards. let me put it this way. the... according to the kyoto accord and also the u.n. framework agreement, the principle has been let out that is common but differentiated responsibility. and the developed countries... now, bear in mind the level of the development and the amount of energy consumed in the past should take the lead in reducing the emission of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gas. that's what has been said. >> rose: along that line, education. >> yes. >> rose: what is the china commitment to higher education? you did a survey of great universities and you want china to be on that survey. >> china, of course, needs to...

it needs to have more people properly educated. and right now what we have in cities is nine year education. in the country side it's only six years compulsory education. so we have a long way to go. and i think only about, you know maybe more than 0% of the high school graduates can move on, 20%. and... but of course among all... among the high school graduates, a lot of them have come this way. >> rose: come to the united states. >> come to the united states. >>:rt me if i'm wrong. the largest exchange students between the united states with china is the united states. we have 20,000 now studying in china. >> we have about 90,000. >> rose: you have 90,000 in america? >> studying in the united states on different campuses, yes. >> rose: is there a... tell me

how you're emphasizing education. >> education, we have a policy that's actually a national strategy. that is to develop countries through education with science and technology. so this is the idea of fundmental policy of china. so that's why the government has put so much emphasis on education. the government has increased its input in... that is to say has increased the government expenses for education. it's taking a larger share in terms of the budget of the country. and also vis-a-vis the g.d.p. >> rose: when you look at the united states, what is it about the united states and its growth and development to its position in the world today that you say we want to emulate that. we want to copy that. we want to be as good as they

are at that. >> yeah, i think what the reform and opening up is demanding is that we need to learn from others, whatever that is good for china. so i think that's what we are... we have been trying to do since the beginning of the reform program in 1978. so that is what we've been doing. >> rose: so everywhere you look around the world, if somebody's doing something that would be a benefit to china, you say bring it to china. >> right, right. including the united states. >> rose: what is it about the united states, then? >> i think you have very developed science and technology and the management skill and the very enterprising mentality, very creative in the... in work. >> rose: it's an interesting idea. it used to be said-- and less so now-- that one difference in america over the last 15, 20

years or longer was that there was a creativity here, an innovation here that wasn't necessarily at that time or in history present in china. is that true? do you think? >> you mean.... >> rose: somehow there were factors that led to a society being more creative here. >> part of the... part of the... education has something to do with... it has something to do with education. it has something to do with tradition. it has something to do with the composition of the population. united states is a country of immigrants and people very... smart people from all corners of the world that come to the united states and they're living this country and so i think they have taken the best traditions

from all... everywhere to the united states. >> rose: what should we learn from you? >> china... confusion philosophy being a part of tradition in china... confucius philosophy, being a part of tradition in china, we put more emphasis on the role of the collect i rather than veg. so we tend to emphasize more for the role of the collective rather than the role of the individual. so hab that's the difference. each has its merit. so maybe we should learn from each other on that. >> rose: well, somegue in the economic sphere you've been enormously successful because, in part, you had an economy that could be influenced by a smaller group of people that a democracy did not have

the advantage of doing. you could create a stimulus program of $572 billion and make it work tomorrow. that's the nature of... >> yeah. that's the merit of the kind of system we have. but, of course, we have also put emphasis on the... the decision-making process. that has s has to be, you know, democratic. in other words, you need to listen to all sides not just... fwoub dangerous if it's one mn listening.... >> rose: listen to all sides before you make the decision. >> right, right. yes. >> rose: what impact has the opening of china certainly to foreign business but a more open society done to china? how has it changed china? >> open society. i think reform and opening up

programs has helped china to chart a new road. that have is to build china, build socialism according to chinese characteristics. that is to say we... we can't just develop china with one model in mind. i think no... one model that could fit for china. in other words, while developing the economy, while developing the democracy we should bear in mind the conditions in china. we should try to find a solution which is best for chinese conditions so that's what we're trying to do and we've already found that role. >> rose: has the influx of commerce and other programs led to a more liberal, open china?

>>py will compare china today to that 30, 40 years ago. i think it's much more open. china used to be a very closed society and, of course, one thing we have discovered is that china cannot shut its doors on others if you want to develop china into a modern country. so i think that's a very important thing we have learned. >> rose: now, you have witnessed all of that with deng xioping when he came to the united states. >> i was here. i was at the office but i attended some of the activities. >> rose: now, what was it about him that enabled him to sort of signal the future for china? >> he's a very broad-minded and far-sighted leader. and he loved china and the only

thing he wants to do is to make his dream come true. that is china is to become a strong country one day in the world. and he is sort of unconventional. he has courage to do away with the traditions. some of them are not good for china. and it is not easy for him to be that courageous considering the conditions at that time that existed in china. so he's a very courageous person with a good command of the... of changes which are taking place in the world. so i think he has very good grasp of the situation, the

developments around the world. he knows china at that time if we do not change china will lag behind. and the only way out for china to regain its vitality is to introduce reform. >> rose: so what's the reform movement in china today? how would you define it? >> reform, i think... of course we will continue to carry out the reform program. the goal, of course, is clear, that is to develop china into a modernized country. and economic reform, we're still the process of that. >> rose: where is it going. >> economic reform, i think... what we have is a system whereby there are the different

ownerships exist, co-exist, and we... the chinese... the kind of economy we have in china is different from what you have here, it's also very different from what china had before 1978. so it's... some people said before that it was not possible for we to have a role of that type but we have succeeded so far. so that is to say it's a combination, it's a combination. and then, of course, political reform. it's the kind of political system which would be best suited for chinese conditions. and then there will be other reforms. >> rose: and what is best suited for chinese conditions mean? >> i think first of all to guarantee that people will be able to participate in the political process as much as they can.

but the question is how could that be brought about? china is a big country with 1.3 billion people and the level of education is still not high and even there are people who are still illiterate. so under these circumstances, how to make sure that people will be able to participate in the political process. so we are experimenting with the...tf ete village level and e are... we have the kind of political system we have international people's congress system and we also have a chinese people's political consultive conference. so the chinese people's political consultive the conference has made it possible for people from all walks of life to be part of the political process. to participate in the discussion of the major decisions. so these are the kind of reform

we are carrying out in china. >> rose: what do you fear the most? when i say "you," i mean the highest levels of chinese government. what concerns you the most? >> concerns. of course i think the leaders have a lot to be concerned about because china is such a big country with such a big population in the world and the population is aging very fast before china has become very prosperous and we don't have yet a nationwide social security system, although we are trying to put together a social security system. we don't yete a national health care system that is good and to make sure every people when he's sick he will be taken good care of. so i think there are so many

things out there crying out to be done. so i think the biggest concern is that they want to make sure every citizen in china will be properly taken care of. i know they will have equal rights to education, to jobs, to a decent level of life standards. >> rose: and probably-- and you correct me if i'm wrong-- it would not be attainable if you hadn't made the shift that you have made in your economic attitude towards the market. >> yeah, that's true. that's true. yeah. i think that's very clear. if we do not carry out reform, there will be no way out. he said that at the beginning of the reform program. >> rose: who said that? >> deng xiaoping he said there would be no way out. >> rose: here is "the economist" magazine. "asia's astonishing rebound."

when they say that they're talking about china to a large degree. what has happened since the global economic crisis in china and how essential is that to your own ambition? >> china was hit very hard. foreign trade dropped by some 0%. and... 20%. and the g.d.p. dropped to 6.1% in the first quarter and it sort of managed to do better in the second quarter. so on the whole for the first half of the year it's 7.1%. it's much lower than the average growth rate for the last 30 years. so china was hit particularly for some of the region along the coast. for instance, shanghai, the first quarter, the g.d.p. growth is only 3%. around the river it's very bad, many factories collapsed and

many people lost jobs, about 20 million migrant workers went back to their home. so... but the government took action immediately and came up with a stimulus package and so since then we see very gradual improvement in the performance of our economy. >> rose: are you developing a consumer demand? >> that's what we hope, yeah. and because.... >> rose: so you won't have to depend on exports. >> right, right. obviously we need to change the growth model. it used to be export oriented and now, you know, after the financial crisis, the consumption side will not be there. the amount of consumption will not be there. >> rose: so you have to have a

new model, economic model that does not depend on a global demand for china products. >> in the long run. >> rose: in the long run. >> yes. >> rose: and therefore you have to create that demand within your own society. >> but it will take some time. >> rose: what's "time"? what's the time frame? 20 years? 25 years. >> i don't know. i don't know whether we have that kind of time frame. but it will take time. you know, the effort to develop a nationwide social security program, the effort to develop a nationwide health care system is part of that effort to develop more domestic consumption. >> rose: and it's going... you can see it's beginning to take root. >> yes, yes. i think so. yes. unless people aree of sort of that... when they are sick they will be taken care of. when they are unemployed there can be... they will be taken care of. people will have to say.

they want to save more. >> rose: saving has not been a problem. >> saving is not a problem. (laughs) but, you know.... >> rose: spending has been the problem. >> you want people to spend more. so you want people to sort of.... >> rose: spending was our problem. (laughs) saving was our problem, spending was our... >> now saving here sin creasing. >> rose: exactly. so there's all kinds of speculation. everybody talks about this relationship between the united states and china where you export, we import. you save, we spend. we just... everything works out fine. when you are a lender and we are a borrower. that's been the classic relationship that has made your economy grow and enabled us to have and take care of a current accounts deficit. that's the reality. will that change? >> i think it will change because obviously the growth model here will change.

the amount of consumption will not be out there. people will save more. if it's happening and it will continue, i think. but the fundamental question here, i think, is the development issue. so we need to pay more attention to the development issue. development for all the developing countries. so if the... the issue of development has been given more attention fchltd if more help is providing to the developing country and then the consumption will... there will be the consumption. the consumption for all the developing countries put together will increase. >> rose: what they worry about is that you're going to stop buying our treasuries. you're goingop buying our debt. >> i think the question has been put to both the vice premier and also the counselor. >> rose: i was here, yes. >> right.

i think they have answered the question. >> rose: so repeat it for the audience. >> i think china will have to invest somewhere. >> rose: (laughs) that's true. >> if the conditions are good-- and i think china will invest. so of course we're concerned about the safety. >> rose: are you concerned about the american economy? when you look at the american economy, are you saying "wait a minute." >> i think we wish you success. we hope you will do better. >> rose: i hear you. i hear you wishing, i hear you hoping. tell me what you expect. >> i think it's improving. >> rose: the u.s. economy? >> i think so, yes. that's what i kept hearing from many specialists. >> rose: at the security and economic dialogue and elsewhere. >> elsewhere, yes. >> rose: what you're hearing is that america's economy, while china... china's rebounding. >> many people believe that in the fourth quart torre session will sort of gradually.... >> rose: in america or around the world?

>> in america. >> rose: the recession will... it will work out of recession in the fourth quarter. but the question is, you know, in the years that will follow, the growth will be slow. >> rose: let me suggest what i think you're saying. we will only invest in america as long as we think there's no better investment. if at any time there's a better place for china to put its money, that's where we're going. >> but i think for a long time to come it will be difficult to find that place. what do you think? >> rose: i'm asking you! (laughs) >> because it's a global financial crisis. it's not just a financial crisis here. (laughs) >> rose: so you look around today, you can't see anywhere better to put your money than america. >> that's why i don't have... close to $800 billion. >> rose: if you would start dumping your investment in america, it would wreak havoc on our economic system. >> no, we're not.... >> rose: but that's not in your

interest. >> it would not be in our interest, it would not be in your interest, it would not be in the interest of the world. >> rose: up so for the time being china's ambition is create some demand locally... domestic demand to relieve some of the pressure on its exports, hope that america's economy continues to grow so it's a good investment for it to invest its money. >> and more attention will be given to developing issue for developing countries. >> rose: meaning that you are looking to africa to invest in natural resources. >> no, that's for everyone who are able to be of help. >> rose: okay. tell me what you meant, then. >> i think we can work together. that has been advocated by president of the world bank and the deputy secretary. >> rose: robert zoellick. that china become a stakeholder was his famous refrain. >> and we'll work together in africa.

i think that's what we can do. we can at least try to identify projects, programs where we could work together. >> rose: as you know, you know neil ferguson is a harvard professor. he coined the term "chimerica which was the notion of the two giants and how much impact they had on the world economy. he think it's inevitable that china and the united states will collide. that china as its gets more powerful and bigger and does better economically and expands its military will end up in a collision with america. >> i don't think so: first of all, there's a long way for us to...e we become.... >> rose: that powerful. >> become a modernized country. a country with modernization. if you go to the interior pro vipss, you'll find that the level of development is very

low. so that's china. that's the current status of china. >> rose: so you've got your work cut out for you. >> yes. so it will take generations, yes to change that. so i think we have a long way to go. >> rose: before you even think about anything you want to get your house in order, take care of your people. >> right. also we have that china's development will be peaceful and china's development is opportunity for everyone, including the united states. china's development should not be viewed as a threat. we don't want to be a threat. we want to live in peace with everyone. >> rose: the word you use often is "harmony." >> yeah, that's right. harmony is the center of chinese philosophy, i think, yeah. >> rose: what does it mean? >> harmony meaning at home, inside a family sort of harmony with members, members of the

family and in the society harmony, the set of rules and also between a different set of social groups and in the world harmony meaning peace and working together. >> rose: that's the goal? >> yeah, that's the goal. >> rose: let's talk about some places around the world. darfur. >> yeah. >> rose: better today? china and the united states are working on... >> i think we have kept very close conversations with one another about darfur. >> rose: what do you differ about on darfur? >> i think we share the same goal. i think the goal is the same. >> rose: but you have different economic stakesn sudan? >> not really. i think actually... some of the other countries are buying much more oil than china. but china is singled out for one

reason or another. i think we think there are two tracks, one is sort of peacekeeping and its political settlement and we think we need to make even progress on the two tracks in darfur. and with regard to political settlement, i think we hope the united states and some of the other countries, developed countries will urge some of the rebel groups to participate in the political settlement. >> rose: how about north korea? >> north korea. i think now the position of the six parties... i mean the five countries in the six party talks is very clear. you hope north korea would agree to come back to the six party talks soon. and we hope they will reaif you remember their commitment to the

denuclearization of the peninsula. >> rose: and if they don't? >> i hope they will. >> rose: (laughs) yes, i know. >> i hope they will. and so i think, you know, we are reassessing the situation. >> rose: reassessing? >> reassessing the situation, right? >> rose: right. >> because there have been some changes. some few developments. >> rose: meaning, what? the president... former president clinton's trip? or not? something else? >> they indicated they want to talk to you. they wanted to talk to the united states. >> rose: what was the indication of that? >> i think that means they agreed to come back to talks, but not theix party talks. the talks rather than talks with you. >> rose: would china welcome that? >> i think we welcome the bilateral contacts between the united states and north korea.

but we also think the six party talks remain the useful mechanism for settling the north korea nuclear issue. >> rose: do you have influence with iran? >> influence. i think you also have influence. other countries in the west have their influence. each has its own influence, i think. and we all l do our part being, you know, a member of the p 5 plus one. newspaper do you think that iran can be convinced? >> i think they are ready to talk to the west about the nuclear issue. i think this is a new development. >> rose: and how should the west respond. >> we need to find out what they mean by that because before them there is sort of a proposal from p5 plus 1, right? >> rose: right. >> and does that mean they are responding to that proposal or

they... so i think we need to find out what they mean by that. >> rose: where else can china and the united states work together for a result that will benefit the world. >> i think we need to do something about that with you also. >> rose: what about w.t.o.. with >> w.t.o.... i think free trade is good and u.s. has benefit add great deal from free trade. china has benefit add great deal from trade. and, of course, i understand some people want the rules to be enforced more vigorously here in this country. but i hope they would realize trade protectionism is not good for everyone. it's not good for you, not good for your partners. so i hope they would take a very clear position against trade protectionism. >> rose: you want this administration not to slide into

protectionism? >> i think they've said that they are against the trade protectionism. so we hope we'll see action. >> rose: are you in the end still good about the possibilities? you know... >> what possibilitys? >> rose: that the united states and china can a difference and that the process is under way under a new administration in washington? >> working together with others. because there are other parties. china, the united states, if we work together then maybe more... others will be more sort of prepared to join. >> rose: everybody always talks about this, as you well know, and you've answered this question a lot and i ask it again in the context of this dialogue. question of human rights and how do you satisfy a world that

there is progress? >> human rights... china has made a lot of progress as far as human rights are concerned and in the... our contribution for the first time we have included provisions, a new provision that we're to respect human rights and protect human rights and we have participated... succeeded to many international agreements concerning human rights. and we are developing the socialist democracy in china so to guarantee that people willeoe to participate in this decision-making process and we are trying very hard to make sure that are the decision-making process will be more transparent, will be under

supervision, and i think the government at all levels pay attention to the welfare of the people regarding the benefits... the interests of the people, the starting point for their work. so i think we are... we have made a lot of progress. if you go to china and if you have been to china years ago you will think... you would come to the conclusion that things are improving. it's a much more open society. >> rose: censorship. >> censorship. censorship. >> rose: the fear of sort of worldwide dialogue and internet and opinions that might not... that might you believe incite... >> i think it's a kind of management. the regulation... it's regulated and it is true everywhere.

here it's managed. there are laws which sort of stipulate that a certain content is not fit. >> rose: but this is more than pornography. we're not talking about pornography. that's clear. we're talking about political opinions. >> political opinions. actually, there are more subscribers in china. and many people have their own blogs in china. if more than00 million people have blogs. 300 million people. so if you log on you will find that they are very open. they are saying everything. >> rose: all right. so in the end you're optimistic? >> yeah, i think... i think if you go to china and ask people in the street, you'll find there the great many are very optimistic about their future. >> rose: and they're optimistic about the future of china's role in the word? >> yeah, i think so. >> rose: and they're optimistic

about... >> about their own future. >> rose:... their own future. their economic well-being. their economic security? their personal security? >> right. because life is security for the majority of team t people in terms of income, in terms of living conditions, in terms of their access to the outside world. it has improved a great deal. >> rose: well, clearly. more people have come out of poverty in china in the last... >> 30 years. snoup... 30 years, than any time in the history of the world. >> that's true, yes. >> rose: thank you very coming. >> thank you, thank you very much. >> rose: pleasure to have you. >> my pleasure. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org