[captioning made possible by kcet public television] tavis: good evening from los angeles, i'm tavis smiley. first up tonight a conversation with former d.n.c. chair dr. howard dean on the state of the health care debate. stories this week the white house may be willing to accept a bill without a public option has disappointed many who see this provision as the key to comprehensive health care reform. also tonight, we recall the life and legacy of a giant in the world of television news, don hewitt, the creator of "60 minutes" changed the face of television when the venerable newsmagazine debuted in 1968. eight years earlier he broke similar ground as the producer of the first ever televised debate between richard nixon and john f. kennedy. glad you've joined us, health

care with howard dean and remembering don hewitt coming up right now. >> there are so many things wal-mart is looking forward to doing, like helping people live better but mostly we'e're looki forward to helping build stronger communities and relationships because with your help, the best is yet to come. >> nationwide insurance proudly spourts "tavis smiley." tavis and nationwide insurance. working to improve financial literacy and the economic empowerment that comes with it. >> ♪ nationwide is on your side ♪ >> and by contributions to the pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org-- tavis: a couple of quick programming notes tomorrow a

conversation with u.s. secretary of education arne duncan. on friday night i'll be joined by stan brock founder of remote area medical, r.a.m., and his traveling health care clinic was front page news over the week followed a stop in l.a. providing free health care to thousands of americans. and tonight we begin with dr. howard dean, one of the uniquely qualified voices in the debate. as serving in the public office as governor of vermont he was a practicing physician for more than 10 years. his new book on the subject is called "howard dean's prescription for real health care reform and how we can achieve affordable medical care for every american and make our jobs safer." he joins us tonight from durington. dr. dean, nice to have you back on this program, sir. >> tavis, thanks for having me on again. tavis: my pleasure. i want to start with a clip, you were kind enough to join me on my public radio program a few days ago and i want to play a clip of what you said to me in our conversation on public radio and get your response on

that very comment tonight a few days later. here he is. >> i promised myself when i was writing this book that i was not going to attack congress on stuff that could be changed later. sure, would i write the bill a little differently? yeah, i would. the whole thing comes down to whether there's a public option or not. if there's no public option it's a waste of everyone's time and money. tavis: the day after you made that comment, front page "new york times," public option may be dead. and in the days since that conversation, that's all we're talking about. you have thoughts nowadays later about the public option. >> i think one thing that was slapped dead is something that was very good which it basically showed after this is all said and done, the republicans have no interest in health care reform. soon there was talk about giving up the public option they were backing away and saying co-ops are no good earlier and the administration now realizes it will be done with democrats alone and that means there will be a public option because the vast majority of democrats in the congress and frankly a majority of americans think there ought

to be a public option. all a public option is allowing people under 65 to sign up for something like medicare is all it is. and giving people a choice. nobody has to sign up for this. if they don't want a government program, then they don't have to sign up for one. and that's the way america works is giving ordinary people a choice instead of having the choice made for them by insurance companies and congresspeople and bureaucrats. tavis: speaking of congresspeople you don't think any of these persons, members of congress, when they come back to work in a matter of days, are going to have been spooked by all this hue and cry in these town hall meetings and therefore not cast their vote for the public option? >> i think at the end of the day they'll do what congresspeople are supposed to do which is work stuff out. the only difference is the republicans won't be at the table but conservatives and moderates will be in the form of blue dogs. i said, i think when we talked last week i said i thought the blue dogs made the bill a better bill and continue to think it's going to be a very good bill at the end. it won't be perfect but it will

be a real piece of reform that's badly needed. i think the president's plan, i said this many times, the president's plan in the campaign was the best health care plan i've seen in 30 years in this business and what something like that is what's going to finally be put in place. tavis: two questions about what you just said now. number one, can it be to your words a very good bill in the end if it's done in a partisan way? >> sure. social security was done without any republican votes. medicare didn't have any republican votes until the final reading of the bill when they didn't dare vote against it. republicans are experts at guerrilla warfare when they're in the opposition and aren't as great at governing but they're terrific at throwing monkey wrenches in. the huge point of getting a majority in the house of senate and a democratic white house is we'd move the country forward again. the president made it clear he wants to move the country. i think he wanted a bipartisan cooperation. the american people would have liked that but the republicans have taken themselves out of it. we're going to have to do it on our own and the important thing

is to get it done and get it done right. tavis: what i think doesn't matter around here with you as the guest but let me add to this conversation that when we were covering the campaign of president obama, senator obama at the time, there were a number of things we heard about what he wanted to do on health care. you referred to it a moment ago as the best health care plan you'd heard of in 30 years. we heard last summer in the campaign about single payor, gone. we heard about buying drugs in volume about saving money. basically gone. we heard of taxing windfall profits of the health care industry, basically gone. now the public option as we now know it is being debated and that's still the best health care plan? >> well, the public option is what makes or breaks it. and as i said last week on the radio show, i'm not going to quibble with all the other stuff. sure, i can criticize it but congress has a tough job, the president has a tough job and they have to make tough decisions. there's been a lot of analysis about this public option and all this. i think the people who mostly get it wrong are inside the

beltway analysts who say oh, there's a left wing and the left. this is not about the left versus the right. this is about what works and doesn't work. without a public option, tavis, we're essentially investing in what we already have and only fools believe you can keep doing what you've been doing for 35 years and get a different result. and that -- but it's so washington to think that. when i first got to the d.n.c. chairmanship is all the democrats wanted to do, continueueueueueueueueueueueueue and hope people didn't notice the difference and work in 26 states and we changed all that over the objections of people in washington. i think the president is trying to change the way washington does business. that's what he said he was going to do to get elected. if you want to change the way washington does business you've got to change what we've been doing for years mr.ing billions in the health care industry is not a change. not because somebody is liberal or progress of -- progressive or left but that's real change.

tavis: what you say hers -- matters, or you wouldn't be a best-selling author and people take some regard in what you say. you said by my count three times in my conversation one way, shape or form, i could quibble but i'm not. i'm going to make you quibble. if you were going to quibble about what this bill is not or what it appears that it will not be, what would you be quibbling about? >> the only thing i might quibble about it is funding source. i'd use a carbon tax. that's not going to happen. that's out of left field but the climate bill change bill is in a little trouble, cap and trade is in a little trouble though i think cap and trade is a good program. so you can basically do two things in one bill, use a carbon tax, people who get hurt other than the oil companies which not many people have sympathy for are people who have to drive long distances because they can't afford to bubu a house where their jobs are. those people are likely not to have health insurance or lose their health insurance and this would guarantee them health

insurance the rest of their life that was affordable. so you know, i think that's the best way to fund it but i'm not getting into all that stuff. this is a tough job these senators and congresspeople have. they have to make tough choices and again i'm not quibbling about the funding source. i am going to quibble about whether it's real or not. you don't want to raise a lot of money at the tarpse -- taxpayers expense and give it to the health care companies and not get things done. tavis: you said people not necessarily have sympathy for oil companies and i hear your point and not many have empathy for persons who happen to be wealthy and who make a million dollars a year or more. but there is this conversation that's starting to grow whether or not the obama administration really is going to make this happen b b raising taxes, significantly, by raising the cost significantly on the backs of those who happen to have money. if you do that, one could argue that those persons, many of whom own businesses are going to see those businesses, those small businesses hurt so you've got a nasty circle here.

what's your thought about making this happen by raising premiums, by raising taxes on the wealthy in the nation. >> i don't know too many small business people who make a million dollars a year. secondly, this bill does a lot for small business nobody talks about and this is also the blue dogs did this, chris dodd did this. right now if you have a payroll in a small business less than half a million dollars or less than 25 employees, you no longer have to be concerned about getting health insurance for your employees because the government will help the employees do that based on their income either in the private sector or public sector and that will be the choice of the employees. now, i actually talked to senator dodd and talked about raising those limits. if we can help small business in that way it would be a tremendous boost to the economy. i don't think this is a small business issue, if you're making $1 million a year at your small business my guess is you could afford to do something. don't forget president bush cut taxes mostly on people making a million dollars a year and i think we put those rates to where they were isn't a bad

thing. tavis: you suggested earlier how you thought it should be paid for but conceded that's not how it's going to be paid for. what is a i about this trillion dollar figure that's going to have to come from somewhere to pay for this? >> it's not a trillion dollar figure but $600 billion which is less than what we're spending in iraq. and i think the senate finance one has been scored most recently at $80 billion a year so the numbers are a lot less than people thought. that's an influence of the bulldogs and even the republicans pushed back on the cost and i think is a good thing as well. 2/3 comes from savings and real savings. they already made deals with the various health care providers that money is going to be saved from various programs. i think that's a very positive thing. so we're really talking now about funding $20 billion a year in the house bill or a little more than that in the senate bill and think that could be done. tavis: what's at stake as you see it if this doesn't happen as stake one for the country

and at stake for the president? >> it's bad for the economy if it doesn't happen. we're losing jobs not just to china but we're losing jobs to places like canada and germany and france because their health care systems are cheaper and better run than ours. but it's also bad for the democrats. and that's why the republicans are not interested in being at the table. they made it very clear over the weekend even if we make big concessions they're not going to be involved with this. so they made their choice and they know it's going to be bad for the democrats if we don't pass the bill. but it will be bad for the democrats if we pass a bill that does nothing. i say be bold. that's how we got in power. we were doing nothing for 20 years. and we got into power by being bold and changing things, by shaking things up and standing up for what we believed in. that's what we've got to do is stand up for what we believe in again and if you do that the american people give you enormous credit. the best political mind in this country is still bill clinton

and he's said two or three times when barack obama signs that bill in the white house his numbers are going right back up again and we aren't going to lose many seats and probably pick a few up in the off-year election. tavis: your point of president obama, is he still being bold or has he shifted his position on this issue from last year to now? >> i think they're struggling and some of them really believe they'll get republican votes and it's very clear they're not and i think it's time to go back to the original blueprint in the campaign which was bold and was a terrific idea and well thought out and that's what we need to proceed. barack obama was elected because of change we can believe in. we need real change and think we can now do that. tavis: where's the evidence in his career even in his short time in the the white house he's prepared to go it alone and make something as part of an issue, his whole thing has been about working across the aisle and changing the way washington works. where's the evidence he's willing to go ititlone here? >> the stimulus bill. that's probably the biggest piece of legislation he's gotten through. and if there was any republican votes, there's only one or two in the senate, maybe three, i

don't think there was a single one in the house. that's having some success. the republicans are big on saying it doesn't work. the stock market is up 40% higher than it was at its lows now. we've got a ways to go. the unemployment is still going up a little bit but we're starting to stabilize. i think this is a terrible recession we've had because of the policies in the past administration and the laxness on wall street, the gross riskk taking at our expense. but the fact of the matter is we're getting better and we are going to get better and the business community has figured this out and so you know, that was a huge piece of legislation. he didn't flinch when the republicans made it clear they weren't going to be helpful but did it anyway because it was right for the country and we can do that wiwi health care as well. tavis: the last four words of the subtitle of your book is make our jobs safer, make the link between health care and our jobs being made safer? >> give you a great example. canada's government pays for their health care, their

businesses pay extra taxes, more than we do but their government pays for their health care. that used to be a problem for them, for canadian businesses, their tax rate was higher but our businesses pay for the taxes -- pay for the health care here. in canada the taxes don't go up 2 .5% the rate of inflation. but our health care has gone up every year for 30 years. finally we're not becoming competitive. general motors pays more for the health care that workers who build the cars make than they do for the steel that goes into the car. now, that tells you something about how uncompetitive our industry is. one of the reasons i believe our industries is becoming increasingly less competitive because our health system which businesses pay for is out of control. that will change under president obama's system. tavis: dr. howard dean's book is call called "prescription for medical reform and how we can obtain medical care and make our jobs safer." the former chair of the d.n.c. and former governor of vermont.

nice to have you on the program. >> thanks for having me on. tavis: next up a look at the life and legend of don hewitt. stay with us. tavis: few people have had the kind of impact on this medium of television the way don hewitt did. as the creator of "60 minutes" he would change the face of the news business providing a primetime platform for one of tv's longest running and most successful shows. but prior to that he helped change the face of american politics as the producer of the first ever televised debate in 1960 between richard nixon and john f. kennedy. in his most recent appearance on this program i began by asking don hewitt if debates today meant as much as they did back then. >> nothing matters as much as the first one. the first one was a blockbuster. when the first one was over, jack kennedy was president of the united states. they didn't have to wait for election day. nothing like that has happened since. you know, my most vivid recollection of that first

debate is the politicians looking at us and saying to themselves, that's the only way to run for office, and we, us, looking at them saying, that's a bottomless pit of advertising dollars. that changed politics in america. it reinforced the idea that the only way to campaign and make a splash is on television. in local races you have to buy the time. and it's gone crazy. the amount of money it costs to hold office in the united states or even run for office in the united states based upon the fact it has to be on television is obscene. tavis: so are you happy with what you have bequeathed my generation or do you owe us an apology? >> a very big apology. the amount of money, and it all

touched off that night, the amount of money that goes into television campaigning is obscene. tavis: tell me -- take me back to 1960 -- i had the pleasure of talking to you about this before and i know you've been asked about it 1,001 times and take me back to that debate and tell me since that was the first one that was televised, what made the difference that night? >> jack kennedy's persona. nixon walked in, he banged his knee on the car coming in, he had an infection, he wasn't well, he'd been campaigning all day, jack kennedy had been studying up all day. jack kennedy walked in and looked like a harvard undergraduate. no one had seen a president like that. he was a matinee idol, he was perfectly tailored, he was tan, he was thin, he was self-assured. it was almost over before it began. tavis: let me ask whether or not you ever could have

imagined back in 1960 when you did the first one that these things would have devolved to this point? and i ask that, to your earlier point you guys had not -- if not stumbled on to something, but certainly had created something that was revolutionary in 1960. could you ever have imagined it evolved to this point as you see it, at least? >> no. i wish they'd kept it on the idea of a debate. and i think it was a brilliant idea. it was from the brain of newt minno who became chairman of the f.c.c. under jack kennedy. it was his idea and frank stanton who was then president of cbs. it got into the number one issue was nixon's makeup. which is ridiculous. i mean, we're picking a president of the united states

and the issue is nixon's makeup. there had been so many extraneous issues like being asked, i knew jack kennedy and you know jack kennedy, the insults, ronald reagan saying to jimmy carter, there you go again, i thought there was a lack of dignity and it became kind of television shows. tavis: you know what's ironic as we sit and have this conversation and i listen to you tell me about what it's like to be there and produce that event in 1960, as i sit and listen to you tack about it -- you talk about it, what occurs to me what came out of that debate by your own admission is a great deal of conversation about symbol ice him and nixon not wearing makeup and sweating profusely and how tan and handsome and matinee idolish and tan how

kennedy looked. and it was style over stance then and here we are in 2008 and we're still getting the same kind of conversation about the fact that obama was cooler, he looked better, looked more presidential. again, more conversation about style. is that ironic, do you see the same thing i see? >> no, i agree with you 100%. tavis: i also spoke to don hewitt about the legacy of "60 minutes" and how the program changed the news business and the business of news. since you mentioned advertising, let me cut in quickly and ask you how advertising or the emme it is, the demand, quite frankly -- the impetus, the demand, quite frankly, how does it change news as we know it? >> in a crazy way i think i did that. i think we -- i in particular, am responsible. i developed a broadcast called "60 minutes" which took documentaries, took them down to their bare bones, had them

broadcast by recognizable faces and voices and names. at that point the documentaries were sort of like holier than thou television. people watched documentaries for the same reason they went to church, because they thought they had to. and it changed television in such a way that "60 minutes" made a profit of $3.2 million -- billion -- start again. we made a profit -- tavis: that's a big difference, isn't it? >> $2.2 billion we put in the cbs coffers and that was unheard of for a news broadcast. so from that day on they assumed the obligation. it all started when the only way you could get a license to broadcast was to do public service. and the bill paylees and leonard goldensons came to the

conclusion if they ran a news television they'd just be talking their public service and never thought of it as anything other than the way they got licenses to broadcast. and after i came along, god help us, when they made money, they decided all the news shows had to make money to stay on the air. and i'm not sure that a day is not coming when all of news is going to go over to all news stations. i know for a fact that cbs was talking about buying cnn, and i would think if they had they would have moved all their news over there. i don't know if they really like being in the news business. tavis: wow. let me ask you, since you were such an innovator back in the the day, how it is we get young people, no matter whether or not we get to that point where all the news gets, for lack of a better phrase, downloaded on to cable for your point, no matter what the solution is long term, how do we get young people to watch, to care about news, cbs, your network is

trying to figure out now what they're going to do post dan rather. there's talk they're trying to reach out to a younger audience. any idea how that might work successfully? >> sure. but somehow they resist it. i think the way to reach a younger audience is to have five very good columnist, one monday, one tuesday, one wednesday, one thursday, one friday. suppose you did a two-minute column at the end of the news and jon stewart did one and ellen degeneres did one and chris buckley did one and then on friday night i'd get the editor of some college newspaper to do one. that's how you're going to bring college kids -- tavis: i accept. >> you got it. tavis: even well into his 80's don hewitt was still thinking of innovative ideas and perhaps nothing speaks more to his legacy than this, last sunday night, more than 40 years after its debut the single most watched television in all of television, "60 minutes."

don hewitt passed away today at the age of 86 following complications from pancreatic cancer but the shadow of his legacy will extend for generations to come. that's our show for tonight. until next time, good night from los angeles. and as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavissmiley@pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time with u.s. education of secretary arne duncan on president obama's education agenda. next time. see you then. >> there's so many things wal-l-rt is looking forward to doing, like helping people live better but mostly we're looking forward to help you build stronger communities and relationships. because of your help, the best is yet to come. >> nationwide insurance proudly supports "tavis smiley."

>> tavis and nationwide insurance. working to improve financial literacy and the economic empowerment that comes with it. >> ♪ nationwide is on your side ♪ >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> we are pbs.