tavis: good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. first up tonight, a conversation with u.s. secretary of education, arne duncan. after a run as chief to have chicago public school system he is in charge of public education for the obama white house. goals include the push for more charter schools in the us. also tonight, the founder of the enter dependence day, benjamin barber. his gathering takes place in turkey next month and emphasizes the need for global cooperation on a wide range of issues. arne duncan and political theorist benjamin barber coming up right now.

>> there are so many things that wal-mart is looking forward to doing, like helping people live better but mostly we're looking forward to helping build stronger communities and relationships because with your help, the best is yet to come. >> nationwide insurance proudly supports tavis smiley. tavis and nationwide insurance working to improve financial literacy and the economic empowerment that comes with it. ♪ nationwide is on your side ♪ >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. [captioning made possible by kcet public television] tavis: arne duncan serves as the u.s. secretary of education after serving time as the chicago c.e.o. of public

education. hiss father was a professor at the university of chicago and his mother ran an after-schooll tutoring program. secretary duncan, nice to have you on the program. >> thanks for giving me the opportunity. how are you doing? >> i'm doing well. i want to start -- you put quite a focus on charter schools as -- i don't want to say the answer but charter schools as one of the answers. why so much focus on charter schools? >> it is a piece of the answer. it is definitely not the answer. i have said i am not a fan of charters. i am a fan of good charters. too many places around the country we have mediocre charges. when you only let the best of the best open schools and give the operate ofs autonomy from bureaucracies, we cover that with clear accountability, we see great things happen around the country.

a piece over the solution for challenging the status quo and helping us get better, we want that option on the table. >> one could argue, as i will now that while charter schools are good on one hand, on the other hand they are some of the most segregated schools in the country because those who found them and create them and run them get to pick and choose who they want to be in their schools. what about that? >> that is not quite right to be honest. they operate by lottery. these are public schools. public schoolchildren. public dollars accountable to us. and in chicago we open these in only desperately underserved communities. what we found is schools with very long waiting lists. six, seven, eight, nine applicants for every spot. parents desperately looking for better options for their children weaped have the job to listen. i'm a fan of them.

i actually caused three for academic failure that were not working and when children do not show up, you close them down. tavis: you think the numbers then indicate right now that the charter school works as well for students of color? do you believe that, sir? >> the vast majority of children in the charter schools come from the minority. tavis: you mentioned a moment ago the marketplace. there are some who think that the marketplace making any kind of roll role is misgaded? you feel different sflip >> too often, children from very poor communities had few options and few choices. the wealthy in our country have had many educational options for a long time. i always think if it is good enough them r for them it is good enough for families who

don't have many resources. they have a variety of options to choose from. this works better in urban areas where you have a greater population. you have four, five, six, great high school options that focus on math and science and performing arts and international curriculum. we started some single schools. every parent, as you know, wants the best for their child. doesn't matter how much education they have or don't have. parents are attuned to what the best learning environment is for their son or daughter. the more we can empower them and figure out what the best pat of the environment is for their child, i think that is important. we have to dramatically reduce the drop-out rate. it is unacceptably high particularly for african-american and latino children. it is devastating to our society. the m me we can empower parents

and get great options i'm convinced we can reduce the trap-out rate and increase the graduation rate and make sure they have the -- fulfill their potential. tavis: i think they deserve the best for his or her child but when those options or choices are linked to a profit motive. what do we end up here? >> this is not about profit motive. the great majority of these scrls not for profit. that really misses the point. it is about creating great options for children. what we saw is schools that historically had 50% drop-out rates, we saw some innovative new schools that had 95% graduation rates and 95% of those students went on to college. that is the kind of success we need. we have islands of sbrens around the country. -- excellence around the country.

what we have to do is scale up what works. we have to learn those best practices and make sure that every child has a chance to get a great education. tavis: you have taken great crerkts as you should and the president and all of those in the obama administration talked to about the fact that the stimulus package there was $100 billion set aside for education. more money for education than anything else. i think that is a good thing but how do you respond to folks who say money simply is not the answer? >> i couldn't agree more. money is absolutely not the only answer. we said unprecedented resources has to come with reform. simply investing in the status quo isn't going to get us to where we need to go. as a country, i think we have lost our way when it comes to education. the president said by 2020 he wants us to have the highest percent of college graduates in the world.

a lot of people think that is the case and it is not. a number of countries have passed us by. i think we have t t educate our way to a better economy. so money alone doesn't begin to be answer but with unprecedented resources if we could have dramatic reform at early level, early childhood, k-12 as well we have a chance to do something extraordinary in this country. this is a historic once in a lifetime opportunity. we have to make the most of it. tavis: to your latter points about this being a once in a lifetime opportunity, can we draw a line in the sand here? every president in my lifetime said heptses to be the education president. -- he wants to o the education president. if in four years or eight years that is not the case. that is if the high school drop-out rate has not dropped what should we say then about what you all attempted to do? >> i absolutely want to be held

accountable. all of us do. every educator and teacher and principal and superintendent. we want to get dramatically better and we cannot continue to have a drop-out rate that is devastating around the country. again, i want to be he would accountable every single year and pwba scorecard of what we're doing around the country and hold all all of us accountable to make sure our children are successful. we're going to challenge everyone. ourselves, teachers, principals and most importantly our students and our students' parents. parents have to step up and turn tv's off at night and spend time reading to their children and getting to know their teachers and principals and exchanging numbers. they have to know there is no positive future out there for them without a minimum of a high school dip loam pavement students that drop out are --

diploma, students are drop out are set up for a life of poverty. tavis: speaking of accountability, there are some people raising issues specifically with regard to hbcu's. known as historically black colleges or universities. there is a campaign now kicking around the country to come after you and the president respectfully to put back money taken out of the budget for hbcu ice. what are you doing to do? >> we put more money in our education budget this year and as we go forward, stay tuned. they are more important today than at any time historically. they produce 50% of our nation's minority teachers. we desperately need more role models. we're going to work closely with their community and make sure the universitys are successful. tavis: stay tuned on that one.

back to the question now. the money that was taken out that got this campaign kicked up. what happened there? >> the money wasn't take out. it was a two-year appropriation that ended. it is just simply sunset. tavis: what is the administration going to do about that? >> we increase our budget but it doesn't cover the ditch rble there in going forward. we're -- differential there going forward. tavis: can you commit yourself now to cover that differential? >> not today. it will take congress' support. tavis: we talked about colleges and universities a little bit in this conversation. i was just looking at the u.s. news and world report. every year they come out with this edition of ranking the best colleges and universities. the average cost now, and i'm rounding these numbers up, the average cost now for a public college education per annum in this country now is $25,000. for the public education.

for a private school now, the average cost now is $40,000 per year. your thoughts on those numbers? >> they are high and they are getting high at a rate that we think is accelerating maybe too fast. a couple of things are happening. part of this part of that $100 billion is part of early investment in early childhood. $70 billion for k-12. north of $30 billion to increase access to higher education. increase pell grants and perkins loans and tax credits. at the back end, we put in income-based repayments so that folks that want to enter the public sector or want to be teachers or go into the nonprofit community will have a chance to do these things and not have these overwhelming levels of debt to prohibit them from following their passion. and what i think is going to happen, we've tried to put again unprecedented resources, the most money since the g.i. bill to make college more accessible and more affordable. but let me tell you, tavis, what i think is going to happen is parents of students are really smart.

those schools where tuition is going up exponentially high, folks have a lot of options out there. you're seeing other universities being smarter and very creative. they are going three-year programs and no-frills programs. i think you're going to see them capture a larger share of the marketplace. again, parents and students are going to vote with their feet and when costs are skyrocketing we think they are going to pay a price for it. the other thing we're pushing very, very hard in our budget, is over the next decade we want to have almost $90 billion in new money for pell grants, perkins loans and do it without asking for a single additional dollar from taxpayers. what we're going to do is stop subsidizing banks and invest all of those resources into our students, into our young people who are chasing that dream of going to college. so we think we have a we think we have a chance to bring unprecedents resources into the next decade without going back to the public simply by doing the right thing by children and stopping subsidizing banks. tavis: finally we talked about

what you and the administration can do, ought to do and has committed to do over the next four to eight years, who knows? what do parents and everyday americans do about turning around this education crisis? >> well, i think we all have to do more. this is a collective responsibility. it is an exciting time. we're obviously getting ready to go back to school. i would ask parents absolutely engage. i'm the father of two young children. a kinder gartner and second grade. we turn offer the tv and get to know our children's teachers and we volunteer at the school and participate. parents have to be a full and equal partner in the children's education. when you have that collaboration great things happen. when that collaboration doesn't happen our children suffer. it is so important that all of us step up and move outside our comfort zones to make sure weo everything we can to support our young people's dreams around the country. tavis: thanks for the opportunity to talk with me, mr.

secretary. >> thanks. appreciate the chance. tavis: up next, benjamin barber on his upcoming national interdependence day conference. stay with us. dr. benjamin barber is a renowned political theorist and the founder of the enter dependence day conference this year held in turkey. in the past i've been able to attend this wonderful event. benjamin barber, always nice to talk with you, sir. >> great to talk with you, tavis. tavis: before i explain what it is to those who have not heard about it, participating, a couple of questions of news. last night on this program we had a fascinating conversation with dr. howard dean. what is your sense of how this health care debate is playing

out or is not playing out, as it were? >> well, tavis, if we're going to have fair health care in america and not have single payer, which means the government does it all, then there has to be -- there must be a public option, which is to say the government has to provide a competitive alternative to private insurance companies and this talk about well, maybe we don't actually need a public option, maybe we can get a couple of co-ops to do something is really nonsense. if there is to be health care, government has to be present with a public option so there is genuine competition and the insurance companies know they have got to offer fair prices and fair contracts to those who they contract with. frankly i don't think there will be health care at all unless there is a public option and i hope to god that means there will be a public option. tavis: interdependence in part means having civil dialogue with our friends and neighbors around the world. what is your sense of how these uncivil conversations of late have been taking place around

this contentious issue of health care? >> that is a great way to put it, tavis. it is true that we are friends, -- we are used to being rather uncivil with our friends, colleagues, partners and our adversaries abroad but nowadays i think we're more uncivil to one another than we are to the iranians or the north koreans. it is quite extraordinary, the way in which people come to town meetings with their congressmen and shout them down and call them fascists because they want to just talk about possibilities of pububc options, a more balanced and fair code than we currently have. it is discouraging to see so many americans who think citizenship means talk radio style polarized, angry polemics. i hope we get over that and can get back to an honest discussion about health care. that's only way we're going to see a public option and that's what we're going to have to have. tavis: howard dean on health care last night, what is your

sense of this $100 billion that president obama has earmarked for education in the stimulus package. is that enough? is it being focused in the right way? your sense as a professor? your whole life dedicated to education, the state of education in this country? >> it is not enough tavis, we need a lot more for education. the stimulus package has been much more productive than i think a lot of people thought it was going to be but unfortunately a lot of it is going into so-called shovel-ready projects, roads, construction and we desperately need the money in our schools and universities. if you look at state universities across the country today, they are all cutting their bums one after another after a -- their budgets one after another when we really need them. in back of the problem with the public option and education and the public option in health is really a deep american

misunderstanding of what public means. public means democratic. it means us. it means us providing health care for our loved ones and for our elders and people who need it. public education means us providing education for our children, for our young ones and brothers and sisters and we somehow have this crazy notion means socialism. some bureaucratic government when in fact, it is really about us as democratic since the taking care of our own. so i would like to see a lot more money going into public education. i would like to see a lot more understanding going into the need for a public option in health, which would in effect provide medicare and medicaid-style health. 90% of the american people love their medicaid and medicare. for others who need it and can't afford private health insurance. >> i can take your last comment to mean -- i don't know if you want me to take it to mean this. i can take it to mean in this

era of obama and of openness and change and hope and of americans coming together that americans are becoming more nativist. what is behind them turning more inward? >> tds hard for me, tavis, to discern whether americans are becoming more nativice or the media and politicians are. putting americans in a cage where they don't belong. my sense, even with the president, as you know, i greatly admire, i think he is somewhat behind the curve of the american people, not out ahead. i think the americans are ready for the public option and ready for greater investment by the government, by the state in education for young people and i think he has been maybe a little bit scared -- nervousness, by what is going on with as you talked about it it, the angry polarized things we are hearing,

people screaming fascist and socialist. everyone who says there is something socialist about the president's education program or the president's health program has never set foot in a socialist country. i have. i know what it is. democracy has nothing to do with socialism . it is about americans doing for their fellow citizens what their citizens cannot always do for themselves and providing real competition by encouraging the private sector to compete by also giving them something to compete with, a genuine public option in education, health and other fields as well. >> tavis: you mentioned president obama. he was in turkey as you well know rlerer this year speaking to a -- earlier this year speaking to a number of stuentsd. we're going in a matter of days. for people who don't know what interdependence day is, what is

it all about? >> it revers to not some aspiration to have world government and everybody to get along but to the reality almost every challenge we face in the modern world, in global warming and diseases like swine flu and h.i.v., they are around everywhere. some are pred tear to the labor forces that move around the world, it refers to the reality that we live in an interdependent world where all of the challenges we frace enter dependent. we started enter dependence day a few days after 9/11. it became so apparent the united states had been insulated by its oceans and bounty from foreign invasion and attack was in this new interdependent world to have 21st century, it is vulnerable to new force of terrorism. we designated september 12 as a

day to think about and reflect on the challenges of interdependence and the possibilities of more interdependent public policy and foreign policy. since then, we have been in six global cities around the world and this is the seventh year of meeting with religious, artistic, cultural, political leaders, a youth summit as well and older distinguished guests coming together to looked a and examine all of the issues, all of the challenges and find out whether there is a way to do the things together we can no longer do alone one nation at a time. tavis: i'm wondering whether or not, the spirit of this conference you suspect will be different this year as the first one where we as americans go to attend with an african-american president, dubois, many days ago talk about interdependence. how will it be different?

the reception and conversation be different? when we go with the backdrop of an african-american president? >> you said earlier he opened his presidential campaign after the gmp 20 conference in turkey. he has been in cairo since then. he has an open and fresh attitude towards the world, which has already begun to change foreign policy and change attitudes abroad towards america. i think indeed, this interdependence day, our seventh one will have a new sense of promise and hope because the most powerful and important country in the world, which historically as been isolated doing its own thing, belongs and is part of the world and leadership means america working in and cooperating with the world, not trying unilateraly trying to impose its will on the world in i think the meeting

will be shaped and influenced by the new obama administration and what that rept represents to the world about america being part of that world. tavis: benjamin barber, founder and creator of interdependence day >> i'll see you there, tavis. that's great. tavis: catch me on the weekends. you can access our radio pod cast at pbs.org. good night from l.a. thanks for watching, and as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. >> next time join me with former wild kingdom co-host stan brock. that's next time. we'll see you then. >> there are so many things wal-mart is looking forward to doing like helping people live better. but mostly we're looking forward

to building stronger communities. because of your help, the best is yet to come. >> nationwide insurance proudly supports tavis smiley. tavis and nationwide insurance, working to improve financial literacy and the economic empowerment that comes with it. ♪ nationwide is on your side ♪ >> and by contributions from your pbs station and from viewers like you. thank you. >> we are pbs.