>> charlie: welcome to the broadcast tonight. the prime minister of israel, benjamin netanyahu. >> overwhelming the people show remarkable courage. they're tested. they stood up for freedom, truy inspirational courage. if you have pressures, significant economic pressures on this regime, particularly the implication of gasoline, this could make the regime, might

force the regime to choose or to withstand viability. it's not been put to that test and i think there's a saying bit, one of the great sages of jewish history, if not now when. so i say echoing him, if not now when are you going to apply those cryptic sanctions. the time to do that is now. i asked the palestinians a very simple question. suppose we solve these problems, borders, territories. will you then every one of them, i want to know a simple question, will you recognize the state of israel, jews have been divided when they conducted a war against us for 50 years. will you recognize the state of israel as the nation state of the jewish people. you ask me and my people to recognize the palestinian state

as the palestinian state of the people, would you recognize israel as the nation state of the jewish people and the answer ought to be very simple. yes. >> charlie: the prime minister of israel for the hour, next. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.

>> charlie: we begin this evening with the prime minister of israel, benjamin netanyahu, he is in new york attending the united nations general assembly meeting. i spoke to him yesterday at his hotel about his perspective on the middle east. today, he addressed the united nations general assembliment here is some of what he said. >> i sat here today as the prime minister of israel, the jewish state. and i speak to you on behalf of my country and my people. the united nations was founded after the carnage of world war ii, after the horrors of the holocaust. it was charged with preventing the reoccurrence of such on te

horrendous events. yesterday the president of iran stood at this very podium, spewing his latest anti-semetic rants. just a few days earlier he again claimed that the holocaust is a lie. i'm proud that my country israel is at the forefront of many of these advances, science and technology and medicine and biology and agriculture and water and energy and the environment. these innovations and my country and many of your countries offer humanity mutual of unimagined promise. but if the most fanaticism can

acquire the most deadly weapons, the march of history could be reversed for a time. and like the belated victory over the nazis will prevail after blood and fortune has been exacted from mankind. this is why the greatest threat facing the world today is the marriage between religious fundamentalism and the weapons of mass destruction. the most urgent challenge facing this body today is to prevent the tyrants of tehran from acquiring nuclear weapons. are the members of united nations up to that challenge. will the international community confront a despotism that terrorists its own people as they bravely stand up for freedom. will it take action against the

dictators who stole an election in broad daylight and then gunned down iranian protesters who died in the sidewalks on the street choking in their own blood with the intercommunity toward the world's more perinitiate sponsor and practical cisioner of terrorism. above all will the international community stop the terrorists regime of iran from developing atomic weapons. thereby endangering the peace of the entire world. the people of iran are courageously standing up to this regime as do thousandses of people who have been protesting and demonstrating outside this hall all of this week. will the united nations stand by

their side. well ladies and gentlemen, the jury's still out on the united nations. >> charlie: and here's a conversation that i had with the prime minister yesterday at his hotel here in new york. first of all thank you, mr. prime minister for seeing us. >> it's been a long time. i don't want to say how long. >> charlie: you've been out of power. do you see israeli issues, israeli palestinian issues, israeli arab issues different, having spent ten years away. >> sure. i see everything different. how? you get older, greater. probably i'd like to think wiser. and you think about what it is that you can do to make a lasting impact, difference. and you know, it takes at least two to tango in this particular

dance. but if we see a palestinian leadership that is as committed to peace as the late anwar sadat did -- we're waiting for real peace partner. >> waiting to do what? >> make peace and peace means have you to have a basic reciprocity. and the question is really what is the basic problem. people think it's territories. these are all problems that have to be resolved. from the 19 20's. we left every square inch of gaza and still they fire rockets

into what they say is occupied palestine. they shared it and so on from the north and the south. so i asked the palestinians a very simple question. suppose we solve these problems, borders, territories, will you then every one of these, i wanted to know a simple question. will you recognize the state of israel. jews were divided and they conducted a war against us for 50 years. will you recognize the state of israel as the nation state of the jewish people. you ask me and my people to recognize the palestinian state as the state of the palestinian people, will you recognize israel as the nation state of the jewish people. and the answer ought to be very simple. yes. >> charlie: you know the reasonable they don't do that. >> why do you think they don't do that, if i can switch roles for a moment. >> charlie: i would think

demographics and who you would define as eligible and things like that. >> i think it's not that reason. i think that the palestinian society is not forgiving. on the other side are hamas and the other extreme groups that openly say we want to destroy the state of israel. they fire thousands of rock inteets our territory and make no bones about it. on the other side are more moderate faction. they say well we're not espousing terror, we're doing other things but they don't really say it's over. they don't say well we'll get the state and we cease the conflict, cease all claims against israel, we make a permanent peace with the jewish state. because for many of them, there is a subtext and the subtext is we get a state not to end the conflict but to perpetuate the conflict with better terms. and they flood them with the

refugees and offspring and thattal fies israel as a jewish state. i say look i want to join this issue because this is where the guts, the soul of israeli people is. everybody wants to make peace. there's a desire, a hunger for piece that is fantastic. but the same -- >> charlie: the well of the israeli people and the will of the palestinian people. >> i think this is an interestingistic. 70 to 80% of the israelis say they'll make concession to a peace and there's 80% say there's no one to make a concession too. they want an answer. they want to know that the palestinian side will cease the conflict once we have a peace agreement. that the state will not be a skateboard for future attacks. so when i put forward this question of recognizing a jewish

state, not in the religious sense, obviously it's a nation state of the jewish people and there are non-jews there. the arabs, israelis are citizens like everyone else. they participate in the government and so on. they have equal rights. it's not a question. but the refugees, the palestinian revenues go to the palestinian states. just as the jewish refugees from arab lands go into israel and there are no more claims. and i think this is a substantive point. this is the heart of the conflict. this conflict has been perpetuated for so many duke -- my latest speech, it wasn't easy for me. and i said we'll recognize a palestinian state, but we asked do the palestinians recognize the jewish state. which ought to be a fairly simple exercise. and i think that's what they're grappling with. >> charlie: what do you think their problem with the words

jewish state is? >> i think it means the end of any claims on israel, on the negative or the galilee where you have a sizeable minority. i think that also means that there won't be this inflood of refugees palestinian refugees. whatever happens israel as a jewish state ceases to exist. it ought to be simple to say a hundred years after, more than a hundred years after hertzel published his great manifesto, the jewish state and after president obama today -- yesterday i suppose it would be in your time, said we need to recognize the jewish state. we recognize the jewish state. it ought to be a fairly simple exercise from the palestinian ma

toe. it's not hamas to say that. >> charlie: was that language you urged the president to use. >> i've been speaking about it for a time. it's not the president of the united states who has to be urged, it's the president of the palestinian authority. i think mr. abbas has to decide is he under our court or hussein or anwar sadat, on the side of these two great leaders who stood up and said it's over. or is he wobbling. >> charlie: fair enough. what do you have to decide? what kind of leader are you? are you a begin. >> any time. >> charlie: what about ariel sharon. >> that's laterally -- >> charlie: exactly because

it ought to be negotiated. because you ought to get something from it. >> because he want stable peace on the other side of the fence. you don't want another hamas, another iranian base on the territory you vacate. so there's really two conditions for peace, not for starting peace goacialsz, i place no pre conditions on it but i think the real clear terms for successful resolution is the negotiations once started. one is recognition. the pal steenlz have to recognize the jewish state just as we asked and are prepared to recognize the palestinian state. what kind of a leader am i? i'm the one, the leader who stood before his own people, his own party and said that just a few months ago. >> charlie: i know but -- >> second it has to be a militarized palestinian state. it can't be a platform for additional, for thousands of rockets that are then rained on our heads. and signing a piece of paper by itself doesn't guarantee that. it has to be solid solid.

>> charlie: and israel has to control the borders you said. and are air space, israel will control the air space too. there are many palestinians and others beyond that who say that the state you propose for them was hardly a state. >> why is thought. >> charlie: because they wouldn't cell the air space, they wouldn't control the borders, they would not have had -- they had to be totally demilitarized. israel is strong both in terms on of of military and idea. and. >> we are strong. >> charlie: exactly. >> we can move great strength to extreme vulnerability in a heart beat. this is our problem, do you know what, because we're so small. now if you're a small country like monaco -- just take a country like belgium or

luxembourg, who are surrounding by neighbors who not only call for -- destruction but throw 12,000 rockets into that tiny country, you'd think we have real problems. now these rockets, 10,000, 12,000 rockets falling on the united states that is compressed to the size of new jersey. that would make you think. >> charlie: no leader would want that to happen. no leader will stand by while that's happening, none. on the other hand -- >> what would happen. >> charlie: well that's an interesting question. how do you de fine your security and how you get to the place where you are more secure in your strength than you are even today. and that is helping to see a strong palestinian entity. and you agree with that. >> yes, i do. >> charlie: you agree with that and you're tryingo do something about that. >> not only are we doing it, i think that involves a third leg. i mean, peace stands on three

legs. one is recognition, which is really another word for legitimacy. >> charlie: the arab nations are all prepared when you talk about the palestinians, all arab nations are prepared to recognize. >> president obama said something quite significant today. he said, and i think he was alluding to this. this is my interpretation but i think it's a fairly accurate one. he said to the arab world, you know, it's time to speak out in the open, what you say privately. we have a common thread, iran and we have a common desire. you can't just whisper it in the corridors, you know, quietly. you come out and act on it and normalize the relations with israel. so number one, legitimacy. number two, security. number three, and this is what you were asking, prosperity. i think it makes a tremendous difference with young

palestinians to have jobs. >> charlie: hope. >> hope. as you drive on the rode, one closer to the palestinian area. you drive from tel aviv to jerusalem. on your left you see romalo. if you see sprouting from the ground not rockets but gleaming apartment buildings and office blocks, that has a tremendous, makes a tremendous difference what palestinians, and charlie it makes a tremendous difference to the israelis because they believe something else is possible. for the last six months, we had no talks and unilaterally, it's my decision. >> charlie: the last six months of no talks. >> we removed hundreds -- unilaterally, hundreds of road blocks, check points. we had 147 check points. we reduced it to 14. they work around the clock. i went to the jordan river bridge connecting the west bank to the rest of the arab world and i said we'll extend the time

for passage on this brink. i want goods, services, people, trucks to pass back and forth to the west bank economy. people said we can't do it, mister, we don't have the budget. i said you have the budget, just do it. we've extended times on the bridge, we're dealing with. i personally chaired a committee to unclog all sorts of bureaucratic hurdles. i checked sewage, electricity. i want to know why these projects are not being moved by our sidement if there are impediments on their side that's a different matter. that's what i do because i believe in this. i believe that process interrity helps peace. we used to think that peace will bring prosperity i think it's the other way around or at least creates the condition for the political process to succeed. i think there's something different going on in the west bank. >> charlie: you're beginning

to sound like -- >> what's wrong with that. >> charlie: that's a central idea he's articulated for a long time. here another question about the politics. how much freedom do you have. you talk about saying you want a ben, you got a budget, you need people to do this, we're going to withdraw. i'm the prime minister, i'm going to take this chance. but others worry about this collation you have. and they worry about how much moveability you have to do the things that you may very well want to because you had to put together people who might have a different idea about israel's security, israel's destiny. and the way to get there. and also about the plight of palestinians, i think there's actually a much bigger consensus in israel which i tried to express at a speech i gave, and i was amazed at the response,

amazed. >> charlie: amazing in what way because of what you said. >> because i said that what we really need is the peace with palestinians would consist of a demilitarized state that included a jewish state. the response was overwhelming. cut across the right and the left, i'm not talking about the extreme fringes will never be satisfied. i think this expresses the yearning for piece and also the basic two conditions, recognition and security that israelis would call us. and israelis are very generous people, if they believe there's a sadat on the other side, a king hussein on the other side. and i hope that we encounter such leadership. but you asked what did i learn. i learned two things. one is unity.

what is the biggest mistake you made as prime minister. >> charlie: good question. >> i believe maybe you asked me. the biggist mistake was let's join hands and form a government for the purpose of peace and security. well, i didn't just say it, that's exactly what i did know. i turned to barak who was head of the labor party and said that's join hands for peace and security. if israel makes peace only from the position where the great body of people are convinced that they'll have security and they'll have the other side that recognizes the state of israel. >> charlie: that includes your foreign minister. you would say the same thing to him. >> i say the same thing to everyone. >> charlie: does he respond in the same way. that's a question with two very different views of the destiny of israel. >> i they want proof. they all want proof. they're all willing to go a

great distance but they want to be sure. the margins of our existence are so fragile. understand what it means to get dozens or thousands. they don't just rain on our populations, on our cities, that's bad enough. no one's been subjected to this. >> charlie: no one denies that either. >> the point is charlie, if we miss out, most of the rockets, 95% of the rockets hurled against israel are hurled from the adjacent territories, nearby territories. and they hurled at our cities which is an unbelieve problem but can also be hurled at our air bases at critical installations for defense. so if we blow it, if we make the wrong judgment de-- >> charlie: you'll be creating a state that has the

potential to do that. >> sharon, a greater leader. >> charlie: a man who grew and evolved in his ideas of public policy. >> no question but i disagreed with him when he unilaterally walked out of gaza. i said all right this is a platform from which rockets will be fired. >> charlie: you wanted to negotiate and create a way to prevent that from happening. >> unless we had some arrangements. i said hamas would take over. i coined the term hamastan. iran essentially rocked in with its hamas proxy and they're packing a lot of missiles. we walked out of lebanon and iran walked in and they fired thousands of rockets into the north of israel. the last thing we want is to walk away from the west bank or pieces of the west bank and have

iran come in and place thousands more rockets on tel aviv. >> charlie: there's recognize us as a jewish state and be demilitarized. >> demilitarization is the -- if you can't defend the peace it's not going to hold. >> charlie: why did it take you a long time to come to the idea that a two state solution was a good idea. why did it take you that speech until the president spoke in cairo to go that far which you now point at something that was very difficult for me and it took a certain courage for me and it resonated with everybody. >> it resonated the way i said it. >> charlie: right. >> i put those basic stipulations that israelis agree with. i have not said i would go back to the 67 boundaries. >> charlie: not specifically, but some changes. >> i want jerusalem as a united city under israel and i will not accept refugees. >> charlie: are those nonnegotiable or like most

negotiations, you state these are my principles, this is what i believe in but let's talk and see where we can get. >> look, they'll raise their positions and we'll raise ours and we'll differ i guarantee you. but i think the most important thing you asked is why difficult raise it. well i've been talking about this for quite some time. i said look the palestinians in a negligent settlement should have the power to gather themselves except the handful of powers that could threaten israel. i've been saying this for years. >> charlie: this was the speech for the first time and some say you had to respond to the president of the united states in cairo had spoken to the region in a dramatic way. >> you didn't sit in the inner cabinet discussions we had well before the cairo speech. >> charlie: not because i wouldn't like to. >> here's one, i'll tell you what i said. i don't want to talk about others but i said this. i said this on other occasions too. i said look, what are we going to do with palestinians.

we don't want them as citizens of israel but we don't want them as our subjects either. so we have to govern themselves. aside from the territorial question which is subject to negotiations, why is it we wouldn't want to govern themselves. the only answer the real answer to that is we do want them to govern except for the problem of security. so is it possible to conceive of arrangements where this issue is taken care of. if you look around the world, you'll see various ideas of sovereignty. economic sovereignty is an absolute in many places. it's not absolute. you know that. you know there are international institutions. i an reading up on this a great deal and i don't want to bore you. first of all it has awful -- >> charlie: a lot of people have said that what the palestinians would end up with under your conditions would be

far less sovereignty than any nation. >> why does palestinian self determination require that they have rockets and missiles and artillery to threaten us. why? i see no reason for that. it can move from great strength to great vulnerability over night. and you say yes but we'll have the peace agreement. a lot of peace agreements have been like this. >> charlie: what i say it's in your best interest to build up the palestinian state so that they can be economic prosperity. i'm just asking questions, i have no policy. >> that's a refreshing change for some of the journalists that i know. >> charlie: all right. on this program prime minister

of the palestinian authority which a lot of people have praised said to me he wants to build up the palestinian -- you buy into what he's saying. do you believe he's on the right track and you believe that's possible. and do you say to him i'll do everything i can to help you achieve that goal. >> i've been saying it to him by my actions. we have a fundamental change that the president alluded to in the speech of the un. well today. and i'll tell you, in they build

institutions and they have a prosperous economy and of course has security forces that deal with terroris armies to deal with it, it's fairly straightforward and simple. these things are good and these things are things that we want to see happening. because in fact what happened is it didn't happen in gaza, we left it unilaterally and overnight hamas kicked out the palestinian authority and established basically an iranian enclave there that's been used. >> charlie: as you know, the palestinian authority have been doing better. >> sure. >> charlie: and have shown some real progress. >> good. we encourage it and we support it. >> charlie: with respect to the president, you met the president, president obama, before he became president. and i want to confirm this. you basically said to somebody, this could be another president -- this could be a

future president. >> i tell you, we had a meeting, our first meeting was in washington national airport in the airport in washington dc. i had come to visit the united states and he was on the campaign. it was early on in the campaign. >> charlie: you were a private citizen then. >> i was head of the oppositio. the only place we could meet i think was in a, i think in a sort of a custodian's of or janitor's office. he came, he was only running for the president of the united states so he came with one person. i, being the head of the great empire called israel, i had five aides. four of them has been born or spent a lot of time in the united states. we had the meeting. after the meeting, we parted. and i said i think this is going to be the next president. >> charlie: why did you say that. >> i'll tell you what my aides said. it's true you spent time in the

united states but you weren't born here. and you're wrong. these are my aides who are otherwise experts in great things. why did i say that. because i felt he had special capacities, great capacities that i thought would propel him where he got. >> charlie: you quoted him as saying i come from the left of the center and you come from the right of the center and we're both practical and pragmatic men. >> he said people attribute, think that we carry a lot more ideological baggage than we actually do. we have to the end of the day have to come up with solutions to complex problems. i said i agreed. >> charlie: you come from an e lustrous families.

>> it goes back a hundred years. >> charlie: with a very strong sense of israel's destiny. >> just visited new york. i called him up the other day and i said how are you dad. he said i can't talk to you now. that struck me as odd, he usually likes to talk to me. i said why. he said i'm packing. i said why are you going. he said i'm going to new york city. i said what you. >> charlie: you didn't know. >> no, i didn't but he left that night and came back a week later. he's very active, he's writing. >> charlie: what does he have about israel and israel's destiny and about israel's place and about what israel had to do to build its national security and build its opportunity. >> both my parents, my mother and father had obviously very

strong influence on me as did my older brother. but it's not only on me. i mean what has shaped all of us is the great experience of the jewish people in the 20th century. this transformation from utter powerlessness where we want a win toss lead. i was in berlin the other day and i visited the villa where the nazis met in january of 1942 and decided in a few hours to destroy the jewish people. invitation reads, hitler's deputy, the head, you are cordially invited to a discussion on the final solution of the jewish people, you know, after breakfast. they say breakfast will be served. and they ate breakfast, a hearty breakfast and they discussed this for several hours. nobody batted an eye lash.

they drank cognac and they decided to terminate the jewish pele, my people and they did. that was not conditioned. and the state of israel was established to change that condition so that we can govern our destiny so that we may still have anti-semitism and the raging fires of hatred of the jewish people raging around us but for the first time in many many centuries, the jews would have the power to defend themselves, defend themselves in the form of the united nations. that is against the tax which i will do tomorrow and defend themselves physically. and yes, that was impressed on me by my parents bebelieve me, it was impressed on every jew in israel by their parents and their grandparents and the collective experience of changing the plight of the jewish people much that's a

profound transformation which i'm deeply aware of that we live in a privileged generation. where the jews can once again decide the jewish fate. this has not been available for us for close to 2000 years. >> charlie: so what is the destiny of israel? your father believed, your brother believed and you believe. >> it's to gather the exi'm -- exiles in the jewish homeland and have a progressive advanced jewish state. in so many areas, medicine and technology and everything else that we're forging new -- you scwd me why this is so hard? because of the deep attachment

we have to this land. this is our homeland, it's not a foreignland. >> charlie: they don't view it that way. >> i understand that. understand i recognize that a million and-a-half palestinians live in the heart of the heartland of my homeland. we have to come to a solution, a practical solution that they can live in dignity as a free people and that we can do the same. the land in which they live is not a strange colonial far away place. i mean, i have a way to express that to people, you come into my office, the prime minister's office in jerusalem and i say look, here's a photograph, a large photograph of a seal that was found next to the western wall in jerusalem and it's 2700 years old. it has a name of the official on it. it's in hebrew, i can read it.

and that name is netanyahu. netanyahu, the son of -- my first name benjamin goes back earlier. it's about 3500 years old. you know the story about benjamin in the bible. they walked on these same hills. this is where the prophets of israel, isaiah, jeremiah, david, the kings of israel, david, solomon. this is not strange land. so with the one hand our awe -- attachment is very deep, probably deep as you can find -- well as deep as any nation. >> charlie: can you imagine the palestinians feel the same way. they feel the same depth, the passion and commitment to land, security and a place too. >> because of that, you ask me why it is hard. it's hard. so the question is how do you balance our ancestral attachment

to this land. after all we came back, you know, out of -- we've done something no people have ever done. broken the laws of history. you come back out. this couldn't happen, the jews are a fossilized nation, they can't come back to life, it will never happen. well we're here, may be on the shelves but we're here, alive and kick. the main thing right now is we want to establish this peace with the palestinians, have their own desires and their own aspirations. there has to be a compromise here. and while we're willing to compromise and i think the israelis and zionists and the petition plan in 1948 which divided the state, the land into jewish state and an arab state, we were ready to do that. we gave back the sinai, we got out of gaza.

i made an arrangement, we have shown a consistent willingness to compromise even though it's very painful for us to do it. and i'm asking now for the palestinians to come and say we're going to compromise too. yes, israel, the jewish state will live here in this land forever. it's not going to disappear, it's not going to dissolve. we're not going to find a way to get rid of it and cleverly drive the jews to the sea by demography or any other means. can we say that because we have consistently shown that willingness. and i want them to show it. will abbas do it? we'll fine out. >> charlie: you don't know whether or not abbas will do it. >> the international community in many ways has pampered palestinians because they have not put that question to them. >> and the question not to the to them is are you prepared to

recognize. >> the jewish state. israel as the nation state of the jews. >> charlie: correct me if i'm wrong. you weren't talking about this ten years ago were you, the jewish state and the idea of a recognizing the jewish state. >> no. i think because the more i thought about it, i said what is the problem here. everybody focuses on the question of the territories taken by israel in 1967. but that's the result of the arab aggression against us. it's not its cause. what has happened is a subtle transformation that results of the tax against israel has been turned into their cause. every time we vacated territory in gaza it continues in any size and any boundary. i thought we should get to the heart of this issue. ask the palestinians, this

simple question. force them to confront their own -- it's a fantasy that somehow israel will disappear, it will shrivel and dissolve and disappear. >> charlie: i don't think that is the desire of most palestinians. yes, there are elements in the population -- there are also elements in your community who believe that in an idea of a greater israel in which there is no respect for palestinians. >> that's right. >> charlie: there are extreme thoughts in palestinian side and israeli side. >> the question is what does the government do, what does the leadership do. i take your point. maybe the right thing to say is not the mal -- palestinian is broken. one side works to destroy and the other side says we will recognize the jewish state of israel and live peacefully.

then there's the sort of middle ground and the middle ground encompasses not all but some of the political leadership and they have to be asked to do what the world has been asking us. and me to do. confront this question head on and say is it going to be over. will the establishment of a palestinian state, a demilitarized state, will it be the last demand. will you make a permanent peace. will you cease to make demands on other parts of israel or on the arab citizens of israel becoming whatever, a separate state and so on. many people feel and have questions about it. when they talk about a two state solution, they say one state is palestinian, that's for the pal steenlz, no jews are allowed there. the it's sort of jew free. you can't consave of the palestinians having jews living among them. they have to be cleansed.

and then you have the other state which is a mixed state of jews and arabs. but the arabs are going to be increased because palestinian refugees will be sweeping into the countries according to the so-called right of return. plus there will be demands on the shrunk and shriveled israel. in other words they say, what do they say, they say it's two states but not two peoples. one is fully for the palestinians and one is split but eventually will be taken over demographically by the palestinians. and you know, sometimes you have to call it like it is and say let's not going to happen. it's just not going to happen. we want real peace, permanent peace, a defensible peace. but a peace above all in which the palestinian leadership, not me, palestinian leadership say to their own people, that is not going to happen. that middle ground has to disappear. that middle ground has to be

taken up by courageous leaders to do what sadat did, the egyptian people, the way king hussein did to people of jordan, there has to be that kind of leadership on the palestinian side. i'm glad i this have the ability to bring it into the peace process. >> charlie: you're willing to walk the last mile. >> that's a curious way to put it. >> charlie: why. >> it has the idea -- >> charlie: of death. >> no, it has the idea of mile. >> charlie: of a roadmap perhaps. let me just say with this idea because i think we're on to something important which is where the struggle you have in your own being on the one hand, you don't want to take chances because you don't believe there will be reciprocity. i mean, we're living here with this issue and this problem and

this conflict that has been with us because people are afraid to take a chance for better place because they don't trust the other guy. my question, how do you get past that kind of mistrust. that's what political leaders are about. that's what, that's what begin was about and he paid a terrible price. >> without a doubt. >> charlie: that's what he was about. >> i think it's a little more complicated than that and i'll tell you why. because i think that the great german philosopher kant was right because he said the observation leaders have to make is that there are two kinds of peace in the world. there's most with democracies and peace with dictatorships. the demonstrate sees don't want

to go to war but dictatorships don't have that limitation. the only way to stop the dictator from going to war is have a forced transgression if it fails. the greatest catastrophe in history, the greatest tragedy in the history of my people and the history of the world occurred when leaders of democracies failed to distinguish what kind of peace to have. >> charlie: what kind of peace was achievable. >> they practiced the peace of democracies proposes the greater dictatorship of all times nazi germany. they learned a lesson they practiced with peace of deterrence. what kind of entity do we have on the other side of the fence. if we get a dictator type like the iranian sponsored dictatorship. >> charlie: you're surrounded by dictatorship. >> authoritarian government. >> charlie: you're surrounded by them. >> but we have arrangements,

authoritarian governments. >> charlie: and you have most with them. >> some of them have very courageous leaders but we have to nonetheless, we have security arrangements with those regimes and the question is what if we make a peace and vacate territory to the palestinians and all of a sudden we wake up the next day and we find iran's henchmen there. these exactly what happened. we've had rockets falling on our heads as a result of that. so when you say the palestinians are building the civil society, they're building institutions of governance. >> charlie: you're saying that's the same thing. >> that's very important because it will decide what kind of peace we can have. but in the long run, in the foreseeable future israel will need to have or must have the ability to defend itself because

of the possibility of change, undesirable change and the territories adjacent to us. do you know what adjacent to us means sitting in the heart of new york city. skip jfk airport. at laguardia airport you already have the other side of israel so it's a tiny country. so we have to make sure -- >> charlie: that's the burden to live with but you live with that burden but you also live with the burden of history. and that cuts both ways. that you have an opportunity to take risks that may possibly create palestinian state that's able to live and remove the fear that citizens have lived with since 48. you have the possibility. >> well charlie, let me tell you, it's my fondest dream and i think it requires, it will require a courageous partner on the palestinian's side as well.

and it will require staying the hand of iran. that is using every power available to it, to undermine the most and to advance terror not only from a distance but close. >> charlie: and they say publicly too. this is not something they're saying in private. >> that's true. >> charlie: so how long is your window before weapons are within reach and you say we've given you the united states and we've asked you to find through negotiation or sanctions or something else, a means of stopping iran from having that. >> i don't think you can direct that question to me. it represents an enormous danger to the middle east and to the world. this is the premier sponsoring.

>> charlie: there is no state i have talked to in the region that wants to see iran have nuclear weapons. none. >> exactly. >> charlie: why did you go to russia? >> i don't confirm. >> charlie: do you think the russians are going to help on you this? >> well, i've spoken about this issue with all world leaders and i think that it's important that everyone understand that iran with nuclear weapons is a danger to us all. can you imagine, can you imagine iran that supplies terrorists with rockets and many many other things. it would give them a nuclear umbrella or worse or worse, actually gave them nuclear weapons. >> charlie: the iranian government is at a weaker point than it was before the election, correct. what opportunity does that offer? >> i think this regime is a lot

weaker than people think. overwhelmingly the iranian people have shown remarkable courage. they tested. they stood up for freedom and truly inspirational courage. if you have pressures, significant economic pressures on this regime, particularly the implication of gasoline, this could make the regime, might force the regime to choose whether or not it wants to advance the nuclear program or risk its own liability. it's not been put to that test and i think there's a saying about the elders, one of the great sages, if not now when. so i say echoing him, if not now when are you going to apply

those sanctions. the time to do that is now. and i don't believe that the iranian people will coalesce around a regime that detests. the opposite will happen. they'll applaud this pressure because they want to be relieved from this medieval regime, this violent theocracy that is oppressing them and threatening everyone else. i think you know from your visits in the region that every just about every arab leader will applaud. and so many, so many others around -- >> charlie: will applaud what. >> the effective imposition of sanctions on iran. i think time is short and there's a lot of work to do. >> charlie: mr. prime minister, thank you very much for taking time for this conversation. it's been a busy day for you. thank you for giving us this time. >> thank you charlie. >> charlie: this interview was recorded on wednesday. the prime minister on thursday

as we broadcast this will have delivered his speech to the united nations, the speech that we showed you excerpts from earlier. thank you for joining us, see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org