>> abernethy: coming up, the catholic sex abuse scandal in europe. how does it affect pope benedict 16th? we talk with an expert on the vatican. and, president obama now plans a late spring visit to indonesia, where he lived as a boy. it is muslim, and democratic. plus, author marilynn robinson, who sees the holy in everything. >> so i have spent my life watching, not to see beyond the world, merely to see great mystery-- what is plainly before my eyes.

captioning sponsored by the lilly endowment >> abernethy: welcome. i'm bob abernethy. it's good to have you with us. as health care reform faced a crucial vote in washington, new divisions among religious groups. catholic leaders are among those at odds and, this week, displayed a rare public split. the u.s. conference of catholic bishops opposes the plan, saying it does not go far enough in restricting abortion. but, the catholic health association, which represents most catholic hospitals, is supporting it. and, nuns who lead groups that represent many women religious sent a letter to congress, urging lawmakers to support the bill. they said it would extend needed

care to millions of americans. meanwhile, the vatican faces growing anger over a burgeoning sex abuse scandal in europe. new allegations of abuse by priests in ireland and germany are raising questions about the culpability of church leaders, including pope benedict. joining us to talk about this is david gibson. he is a vatican expert who writes a column for the online newspaper "politics daily." he is also the author of a biography of the pope called, "the rule of benedict." david, welcome. take us back, if you would, 30 years ago, to the time when the man who is now pope was the archbishop in munich in germany. what happened? >> well, bob, this case really started like so many of these cases from that era started, where a priest in another diocese who had been known to

abuse children was sent for therapy. he went to a psychiatrist in munich and cardinal ratzinger, then cardinal joesph ratzinger, signed off on that transfer. subsequently, the vatican says, and the archdiocese of munich says, a lower level official in munich sent that abusive priest, father peter hullermann, to a parish in munich where he subsequently abused other children and was eventually convicted of a crime. so the question now is really what did benedict know and when did he know it. did he sign off on this priest going to this other parish or did he not? >> abernethy: now, it's being said, but-- at the vatican-- that those times were different, the rules may have been different and in any event what happened or didn't happen is being blown way out of proportion.

what do you think? >> well, there is that claim, they're saying, "look, this is just wildly exaggerated, benedict did not know about the reassignment of that priest." others would say, "well, if it wasn't a sin of commission, it was a sin of omission that as the archbishop of munich assigning priests and especially keeping track of an abuser is one of his main tasks." but also bob, this didn't happen in isolation. this is coming in the midst of a huge perfect storm of scandals sweeping across europe from ireland, as we've so recently, now to the netherlands to germany to austria and now reaching even to the vatican. so again, this is not something that just is a one-off kind of scandal and it also comes in the wake of the american crisis which since 2002 we've been dealing with. >> abernethy: and what are the consequences, then, for the church in europe and for benedict himself? >> well, i think there are really two ways that this really hurts the pope. look, he's not going to resign from this unless something dramatic and drastic happens and

i don't expect that, anticipate that. popes don't resign, but also popes cannot command anymore, as they say, they must convince. he must be able to get a willing audience to listen to him as he preaches his gospel and tries to carry out his priority, his agenda of re-christianizing christendom, that is, europe, that's really his main goal. so if his credibility is undermined by this, people are not going to listen to him. the second point i'd make is that as these scandals are emerging, these revelations are coming out in europe much as they did in the united states, you're going to have great calls for accountability of bishops who covered up for abusers or moved them around to other parishes. if the pope is seen as culpable in the same way, how is he going to tell these other bishops that they in fact must step down or accept some kind of penalty? >> abernethy: david gibson, many thanks.

and, in a related item, pope benedict announced he will visit england and scotland in september. the pope will meet with both queen elizabeth and the archbishop of canterbury, rowan williams. in other news, the u.s. episcopal church has approved its second openly gay bishop-- sharpening the confrontation with conservative episcopalians and the larger anglican communion. mary glasspool was elected last year to be an assistant bishop for the los angeles diocese but needed approval by the larger church, which came this week. she will be consecrated in may. in 2003, the consecration of gene robinson, the first openly gay bishop, created an international uproar and prompted some conservative parishes to break away. according to the national council of churches, in the u.s. and canada, membership is up

slightly in the catholic church, the church of jesus christ of latter day saints, the mormons and the assemblies of god. but it continues to decline in the southern baptist convention and mainline protestant denominations. meanwhile, a separate study of latinos found a growing secularization. trinity college in hartford, connecticut says the percentage of latinos who claimed "no religion" has doubled in recent years. in 1990, 6% said they had no religion. in 2008, it was 12%. in haiti, 33 children that a u.s. baptist group planned to take from the country last month were reunited with their biological families. the baptist group said they thought the children had been orphaned or abandoned because of the massive earthquake. but haitian authorities accused the baptists of kidnapping and put them in jail. all except the leader of that

group have been released. in other news, an ethics controversy erupted this week when a fertility clinic gave away as a prize a free treatment of in-vitro fertilization using donor eggs. the contest was sponsored by an american clinic and held in london where the use of a donor eggs is tightly restricted. clinic staff said they wanted to promote their services to british families. but some ethicists said the contest was like raffling off body parts. as president obama prepares to visit indonesia in june, we have a special report today on that country. it has the largest muslim population of any nation in the world. in recent years, muslim extremists there have been responsible for deadly violence. but our correspondent fred de sam lazaro says indonesia's broad diversity has produced a tolerance that is allowing

moderate islam and secular democracy to grow side by side. >> reporter: jakarta looks like any other modern asian capital, but here, alongside the glittering office towers, you'll also find imposing houses of worship. at the istiqlal mosque recently, about 10,000 worshipers gathered for friday noon prayer. it's part of a religious revival that's been taking place alongside a booming economy in recent decades. it is visible in mosques and in malls. at this crowded shopping center, the most popular garment seems to be the head scarf. >> ( translated ): i'm here because islam tells women to wear the scarf. >> reporter: this 40-year-old accountant began covering her hair three years ago. >> ( translated ): i feel ashamed, because i should have been wearing it since i was young, but at least i am wearing

it now. >> reporter: islam is making a comeback in indonesia along with democracy that began 10 years ago. for years after independence from the dutch in 1945, and then under decades of suharto's dictatorship, religion was officially tolerated at best. >> islam and the traditional, customary laws were regarded as being backward and primarily blamed for, you know, the defeat for many muslim countries under european rule, so that many of the earlier nationalist leaders, many of the educated elite, in fact, turned their back on religion, and among the younger generation there seems to be a greater willingness both to be openly religious and to be modern and educated at same time. i think maybe this is not just a

search for greater spiritual anchor, but also i think it's greater self-confidence. >> reporter: she and others say this growth of religious expression is spawned by the new democratic freedoms. it's neither fundamentalist nor militant, notwithstanding recent terrorist incidents. bombings in two jakarta hotels killed nine people last july, and a 2002 attack in the tourist haven of bali killed more than 200. but religion scholar ulil abdalla, with the liberal islamic youth association, says such extremism is not widespread. >> for some people, islam as practiced in this country is corrupted. movies and food and, you know, lifestyle and so forth, it's pretty much influenced by the american cultures. so when radical islamic ideologies was introduced by some activists to indonesia, it appealed to young people, but

that's, you know, the appeal is limited to a fringe in the society. it's not a predominant trend. >> reporter: the more accurate gauge, he says, is indonesia's recent election, in which secular incumbent president susilo bambang yudhoyono won easily. islamist parties, which had surged to 40% of the vote in 2004, lost ground, to less than 30%. >> some people feared that if democracy, if the democratic space is opened it will allow islamist party to dominate the arena. that is not true. >> reporter: significantly, the reaction of the islamist and other parties after the election indicates a commitment to democracy, says anies baswedan, a scholar of political islam.

>> we have around 40 parties. only nine were able to gain seats in the house, yet we do not see significant problems from supporters who are not having their parties in the house. acceptance to political result, democratic result, is very important. >> reporter: he says indonesians, especially the 14% who survive on less than a dollar a day, have much more pragmatic concerns-- food prices, the economy in general, and corruption. even voters who'd like to impose stricter islamic law or sharia. >> from what i understand about islamic states, the people live in prosperity, and the law is enforced very strictly. those who steal, those who are corrupt, they cut off their hand, rather than here, where people who can bribe judges and police get away with things. >> reporter: yet marta, who like many indonesians uses just one

name, voted for the secular president. so did his neighbor, samsuddin, who praises a government initiative that's helped the poor. >> ( translated ): number one is cash for poor families, and the second is cheap rice. we get $10 a month in cash and 15 kilos of rice. we are a muslim family, but we are not that strict. i voted for the party that is already helping people. it doesn't matter whether it's islamic or not. >> reporter: that kind of sentiment has moved islamist parties to the center. >> people understand now, campaigning, that "we are muslims, we are an islamic party, this is a sharia platform" does not sell. people ask, "tell me what else, tell me in reality, what will you deliver beyond the slogans?" >> we don't name it sharia, because if you name it sharia people then from beginning suspicious to see. >> reporter: fahri hamzah is a member of parliament with the most successful islamist party,

called prosperity and justice, which joined the ruling coalition government. although it once campaigned for islamic law and more conservative women's attire, hamzah says they are happy to govern by consensus in a liberal democratic framework. >> we are an islamic party, but what we talk about islam is islam as the universal value, because we believe every religion, you know, inspired by god. we follow this direction that anti-corruption is islamic agenda, clean government is islamic agenda, you know, welfare, manage our economy, open economy, you know, liberalize our economy is one of the, you know, good agenda. >> reporter: that interpretation might well have its roots in the history of islam in this vast, diverse archipelago. >> we are used to living in differences.

indonesia is composed of islands, over 17,000 islands and over 700 different ethnic groups with different languages, different cultural traditions. islam came to indonesia fairly late, from 12th century up, mostly through traders and sufi teachers. they found indonesia already very rich layers of cultures, and to be accepted a new belief, a new religion would have to adapt to local circumstances from the beginning. i think that was the case when hinduism came here and when buddhism came here and then when islam came here, when christianity also came here. >> reporter: so even though it's 85% muslim today, islam here reflects indonesia's polyglot culture, readily evident in architecture, language, even in the mall's scarf shops. >> ( translated ): we believe in indonesia that islam is more modern, more moderate.

people who wear the plain dress, it's not our way.fñ >> ( translated ): it will look strange if an indonesian woman wore that kind of plain clothes, especially nowadays. they probably think you are a terrorist's wife. >> reporter: shop owner, saleswoman, and customer told us there's no contradiction between islam and fashion, that the notion of a plainly dressed, fully covered woman is foreign. shopping here was nur inani, who was buying for customers in her own clothing business in the island of sumatra. >> ( translated ): mostly they are looking for clothes this long and this long, which is basically covering the butt and the arms. i look for the dress first, and then i will find the matching scarf, the color, the style. >> reporter: terrorist incidents aside, indonesia is enjoying a period of stability rarely seen in its independent history. indonesians are free to choose their government, and they are free to pursue religion, and they've made it clear in

elections that they want to pursue each separately, that is, to keep religion out of government. for "religion & ethics newsweekly," this is fred de sam lazaro in jakarta. >> abernethy: we have a profile now of the much-honored writer marilynne robinson, who won a pulitzer prize for her novel "gilead" and who has a non- fiction book coming out later this spring about religion and science. robinson is a mainline protestant with great respect for calvinist theology. also, as i discovered, she has strong opinions about the world around her. marilynne robinson's view of the world was formed in the mountains of idaho, where she grew up. in the solitude and wilderness, she sensed a larger presence. >> that never felt like emptiness. it always felt like presence. it always seemed as if there was something extraordinary around me.

the holy is at the origins of everything that exists. everything. "so i have spent my life watching, not to see beyond the world, merely to see, great mystery, what is plainly before my eyes." >> abernethy: in iowa, where she lives now, teaching writing at the university of iowa, robinson tells her students to think for themselves. >> i want them to know that they have their own testimony to offer, that if they are good observers, if they are thoughtful people, if they have the courage to evaluate things independently, they will give the world something new, something worth having. >> abernethy: which is exactly what her admirers say robinson herself has done. robinson is a regular churchgoer

at the congregational united church of christ in iowa city, and she sometimes preaches there. she loves the old protestant mainline. >> i think of them as being people who are serious about things that deserve, you know, serious attention, for example, social problems. they are very open to acknowledging the value of other religious traditions and tend very much away from harsh judgments. >> abernethy: robinson has great respect for the 16th century reformer john calvin, who she says was far more compassionate than his stern reputation suggests-- for instance, about forgiveness. >> the assumption is that forgiveness is owed wherever god might want forgiveness to be given, and we don't know, so you err on the side of forgiving. you assume your fallibility, and you also assume that anybody that you encounter is precious

to god or is god himself. >> abernethy: so you cannot judge. you have to forgive. but robinson is very critical of the work of the so-called new atheists. >> i think this sort of avalanche of literature we have gotten lately is very second- rate. it simply is not well informed and not well considered. i mean, i consider it to be kind of noise. >> abernethy: she is deeply worried about the degradation of the earth's environment, especially its oceans, and she is scathing on popular, commercial culture. >> the idea that everything always has to push some extreme, you know, be more violent, be more sort of disrespectful of human life, and so on-- there's a cynicism about it, things that have to do with mayhem, that

make it look like it would be a lot of fun, you know, to wipe out your adversaries or something like that, that really treat people like dispensable, you know, items. >> abernethy: do you see it as a barrier to religious life? >> i think it's a severe distraction. we have to think that people are sacred. human beings have to be considered sacred. that's the beginning. >> abernethy: and the political climate? >> it's a little shocking when you hear people say, like about this health thing we're going through now, what's in it for me, you know? that's a huge change in the basic values of the culture. i got sort of tired when i was a kid of hearing people say you have to leave the world better than you found it. but now i think i would burst into tears if somebody said that to me. just, what a lovely thought, you know? >> abernethy: in spite of her love of solitude and lonely observation, robinson's reputation as a novelist and her

strong opinions have made her a popular speaker, a soft-spoken prophet. at a forum at georgetown university, she was asked about being a contrarian. >> i don't feel as if i am contrarian. i feel as if everyone else is. no, that's an exaggeration, but i do think there is a great deal in the culture that abrades and offends people in general. >> abernethy: she made it clear that at the same time that she embraces christianity, she is also respectful of the secular. >> i know many, many, many, many people who authentically deserve to be described in that word whom i cannot imagine that god would not love. i have no conception of god that would not include love for these people. a lot of the things that i criticize, i think, are in their impact inhumane. my loyalty really is to human loveliness, and the deep

experience of self that every self deserves, you know, and the deep acknowledgment that everyone owes to everyone else. if you were to think of yourself looking back on life, i think that some of the things that would please you most deeply are that at some moment you were... you comforted your child, or in one way or another you soothed, you fed, you were adequate, you know? these things are very beautiful and, i think, sacramental. >> abernethy: back in her house in iowa city, robinson writes in whatever room she feels will be the most supportive. she is working now on a book about the bible. she writes fiction in longhand with a ball-point pen in a college-ruled spiral notebook. nonfiction goes in her computer. she also walks her toy poodle, otis, named for the late musician otis redding. as she walks, she says, she

thinks how to fix "the rattle," as she called it, in a sentence she had just written. maybe, too, how to fix the world she says, echoing calvin, the world god has given us to enjoy. finally, on our calendar: on sunday, bahai's and zoroastrians celebrate the new year, or nawruz. and friday, zoroastrians celebrate the birth of the prophet, zarathustra. that's our program for now. i'm bob abernethy. there's much more about marilynne robinson on our web site. you can comment on all of our stories and share them. audio and video podcasts are also available. join us at pbs.org. as we leave you, scenes from a 2004 concert featuring legendary jazz drummer roy haynes at twelfth baptist church in roxbury, massachusetts. haynes turns 85 this month. you can see more on our web site.

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