north korea d the god particle when we continue.

additional funding provided by: captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.

welcome to our program. we begin with the death of kin jung il. he died by heart attack traveling on a train. closely watching out the political transition will ply playout in the nuclear arms sta. from washington jeff bader n and dave sanger of the "new york times" who s been following the story closely and pakistan

and other places with nuclear weapons. i begin wit chris hill. tell me what are the questions you are asking at this time about this death and this transition of power? >> >> well i must say a few monthsa biggest outer to dr try to get e north koreans back to the new clear talks. the us has taken the correct position that we need to see signser in serious. so as this transition under folds in the coming days and weeks wo won wonders whether the north score reans will be willing to make any kind of decision that suggests that they are more serious about nuclear talks so i wonder what the future of the thirdparty talks as kim the iii gets going. i don't think he has any stature he is hardly known in north

korea. we have to wait to see how it unfolds. whether the military is runningment place or the people around him are running that place or whether he has a opinionch his own. lot of questions ahead. tell us about the nuclearwed where they stand on the development and the missi capability. is no question they have nuclear westminster. they set off two nuclear tests one in 2006 and the other in 2001 after percent obama was inaugurated. a few months after that. the test the themselves were not successful but they have proved that they can do a nuclear

explosion. they have not proven that they can make one small enough to fit on a war head and launch it as a missile. i think the north koreans know like any other country does if they launch a nucar weapon what will the retaliation be. : anand the someone took it out. the somebody was the israelis. it's a signal tohe iranians a to what could happen doing it again syria was seizure and risked a lot less rebellion. and la year theres was a visit to north korea by a stamford

professor and they showed him running a uranium enrichment plant. that is second to a bomb all of the bomb we know are plutonium based. they warned that thin they were buildi a second pathway that they purchased from pakistan. in the end the intel intelligens right. they clearly have the beginnings eveof a signature signicant nucr possibility. >> charlie: what can you tellusg

the dynamic of the political infighting that is taking place in north korea today? pgh. >> jeff: one problems withnortho know what is going on. there it's not a problem that we americans have and south core ryan-- south koreans have. i think that as chris said, this young man is kind eve of like a blank slate. i don't know of any american that has melt him. -- met him. is to reason to believe he is held in hig highest high h hig . >> pgthey arethere is a group h

ca about the population. and is there to see mass starvation. there are a numberver possibilities an--numberof poss. kiml will be ru running the country. there will be an informal regency to su surround him and o guide him around to froorchgly n the show. -- froorchgly ru fran fran.

the person withmen with the gren influencgreat oaflt flinestinfluence was his brother-in-law. >> charlie: what should theunit? how does the united states respond? >> ie >> chris: : this i this is is a. we have to talk the nuclear talk. i think right now in china, between the chinese and the united states, i thi we are going through a bit of a diffult patch. i think. chinese would regard the demise

of north korea as some kind of victory r the u.s. and defe for china. and so this kind of win-lose or zero-some gamzero-sum game isine should adroas g dres dress wit . >> that is very important and w -- holds. >> north korea is doing this inw days. and having everyone cry or cue. >> we do need to be prepared foe that north korea won't come out of this will. it's possible that these rivalries will emerge and it is a possible that there wil will e

problems. >> to the ec extent that we have humanitarian and if there was lose nukes out there. as difficult as the u.s.-china relationship las been in th hase resent months and meirs years. >> charlie:. >> i i think china is inwardlyf. it would have them turn a way from a historic ally. because they wouldn't be all that amenable to the start of the course doesn't mean we shouldn't be pressing for this kind of depth to our security

dialogue with it. >> david, what should theadmini? >> david: charlie, i thinkchris. it would be wonder if i am if the united states aren't china could have a honest and private conversation in regards to what to do were the north korean collapse. ththe pentagon believes they goo secure the weans were an the wed see a conflict between the chinese and american forces. >> but the chinese so far aschrt engage 00 in that covering. one reasons is they don't want to acowledge the clapse will happen. the chinese want stablity on the

north korean peninsula. they don't want them taking over the north or their allies on the boardeboardborder. ?mplet claarly. >> charlie: and youaccident w g over the border. some documents that we hadlh koreans were talng about what would happen if the north did clap? and the south korean view was that the chinese night be able to be bought off with some consignificant of getting iron ore oil fer nort oil out of nor.

we don't know whether in fact the chinese would set el for some condition that the south took hand of the territory of the north if there what a collapse. as chris said that is a zug that some how the u.s. and china will have to have. >> charlie: ever, you went tothd alt of us know how significant a coop railtding united states and children that relationship would be, not only in terms of career, but a whole range of other issues and even the european debt crisis sises. china that's a tion pac particin around could make a difference. >> thobjective was to try to ma.

we put effort in working with the chinese and on global economic rye coughry. climate change. with some significant results. north korea we got the chinese support strong security council action. the unit security council action in twowt20022009and thin the cht nervous. and they ga began to embrace noh koa more decisively. but late in 2010 after the provocation that we saw last year, the sinking of auto south korean ship, they warned the

north koreans to cut it out they would not support these pro vanoc tif acts. pro provocative acts. so the children niece don't have identical percen perspectives tn the korean issue but they are parallel in sick ways. signific. so we can work on it with them. the overall relationship i is a cooperative issue. we have been able to cooperate well with the chinese. the desirability of the dialogue of the chinese on what would happen in the event of a collapse in north korea? that is right,e tried with the chinese. that is a road that they are unprepared of going down and

they don't warran want the koreo see thehave that discussion in e short tirm. -- terrorism. term. the chinese may have a dialogue of how to introduce form. they think tea a decrepe i had state and think should follow their path. and perhaps now the chinese will be able to pittsburgh that argument a little strongly to make it a more viable state. >> charlie: which raises aquest. how do the north korean see the chinese? do they fear them or need them or what. >> normally the north korean'sda

north cor korean. they are octobering the negligence snowing. -- notion. when you look at the resent years you see a closer and closer economic relationship with china. to the ectoanltd that north korea ca can display any froat t all it tends to be as a wrul ref a china. zplrnlgwe don't want to be witha we want to work with the u.s. as well. as money as this say that the fact show that they are willing to get close to the chinese. the fact that the north koreans went ahead and shelled a sowmenh

korean island and then sunk a south korean ship. and the chinese tried to split it down the middle and to call on all sides to show restraint. this had the effect o of enflamg the public opinion in the state that is by any mesh measure. of what happens in the fumenter would be the success store state. i think maybe if not for us but maish with themselves the chiefn niece know how to do deeper thinking and how they would see things on the korean pence. pgh i think the creation of thes

a positive development between president bush and jung single men. it created a motion of community and a group of penal in that part of the world. they have not basketbal been abo address the multiform that the chinese were aicial to talk to the south coryants and the south koreans anted yach niece as a result of the six pearlt talks. the format has not really been the probably. i would see it as apartment of the solution i don't think the north cory yarch. i don't think they'll w worry we

have to g rid of these nuance. >> charlie.har: all roadso thro. i want to mention a fewminm. pgh it's been a change in the south core racorycore cory yafke in, just five years ago, gafn to reverse that and on reasons that the north koreans are much more dependant on zien that because they are no longer getting the trade and aid they got from south core rye yeah

foon for most of the deck ailtd and the chiep that's had to fill that in but that meefnls the nia breef interlude. that got the north korean's attention. jeff just said, the chiep chine have gotten more concerned since kim jung il had his first stroke in 2008 and he could die and there was instability. i think the biggest concern now is this the way the world developed there is a let's of insens tifer to give up their nuclear wements than ever before. if the north koreanss look look at whalookat what happened in n.

the north koreans have too look at ts and say, "the lesson is did he ever give up your last deterrent. pgh. >> i think it will be hardertha. harder when everwas doing this to get the north keans pgh zoo we know anything about what forces in may be thinking of a coupe at this time. >> well ceainly nobody i havetat has heard any sign or at least that theyave led on to me that the police have centeredden monthto support equipment ill jung.

kim judge. the region option you heardy the most likely for a while. the queson is does the split come six months from now or a year from now. glnkts maybe it ?efer comes at all. whenim ill. >> undied and kimumpism becamete military anything. there was a lot of discussion that the military would never silt still for his son. and over the time he condition stoll entertainmented his power. >> he didn't have a number ofyer had. the last words, jeff. >> yment jr. north korea is aa . if you talk to the leaders they think the ordinary north koreans

have a better understanding or days we are filtering into north korea. and maybe evything is not it should be. but it's, tea frankly hard to envision a sens area flow in the next few years br there is a crack up i that lead to somethig i think tea more likely that instability will lead to a strengthening of the position of the security force. very strong and very controlling. there was a few different sens scenarios that could play out

and no one is certain. kim jung il could consolidate power in the news few yrs and we could see cornty newty with the. statement. -- state. the chinese could lean on them and successfully persuade is coming sort of econoc reform. i would say a lower likelihood because the leadership understands the opening coul coe a threat rm there could be a real crack up. that is a real risk and that may attempt the south koreans to moe in and how the chiefn niece would react to the forces moving north.

>> charlie zm. zm ?mplet..: are. >> i think the tip didn't justsf united states forces these t gentlemen did not work well together. pgh hush is the sue any st. ui o the clerktive presidency.

>> the the prime minister hasthe government structures. and so hush me has tomorrow come after maul key on a number of occasions and they're quite prepared to go after him. now i'm not prepared, i'm not in a position as to speak to the route of security guards by butt it's a very serious charge indeed. most people think of kurds at people that warrant out of that state. i i this i think people are turning to the kurtd to city if they can mend this rift between the uni's hush me and the prime

minister maul key. i think anyone who has spent a day in brock and realized it's a place where you have is too birk el your assessment i would think that they could see this as a function of the political troops. and we also oht to be could go thacould gocognizant of the fact es not put a way thousands of problems and i think they will go on for a limb longerment is there. >> charliedoes it speak as towhn or what. >> >> the sunni leader was a goodt. glnldz a that is a positive side of going in. i don't think that people should connect it in going in and toppling the sunni government.

>> we can mend the rif betweent. the person's political identity i don't think the shia an are prared to have another stun any led government. although mr.alou iis a shi'a himself he is representing a political party which presents it's sever aitself as a nationa. >> they regard it as a sunnibast going to permit that. i'm not sure that it's something that we showment expect some american trooms to stoll you

have fo--american troops. >> pgh the iranians are tryingta sunni split in iraq to solidify their relation had with shi'a and to strengthen their own position there. i think there is limit on how far they can go in that respect. whether you are a sh shi'a or sn any in rierk and you are referring to the iranians as the historic person then then. zplrnlgt i don't think the one should expect the she. in iraq to bow down and to .

the ian yans are clearly trying to take advantage of it. you know the iranians had been exercising influence in lebanon and had he ebola and they are seeking to ex-employed she right measurements. it's parlt of her prodder eye ran yan vault strategy t identiy them safety as the leadish of. >> charlicharlie.har: . >> charlie i know you are notan. >> but you talk to people whoar. >> broadway to fight back toapp.

i think the automobile station since it's come ins as put anti-missile batteries throughout the persian gulf gulf against the missile reat. the iranians are looking for ways to the u.s. that they live. they also want to show thats as the u.s. pulls out of iraq they can reacertificate some fluence there. i think itself gone contained and i think the iraqis have their own influence. the iran janes harbored a lot of people now who are running a rock. and they have deep connection and our connections tre are beginning to diminish as the last u.s. forces pull out.

>> charlie.: . >> go ahead, chris. >> chris: i think the keyobjecte american troops off their border and out of iraq. i think that is a key objective that is shared by most iranians. there are also thosi don't consa iranian go but there are iranys that have that as a go. when you hear about sue any arabs talk about iran they are using iran as a scripp tish word for the shi'a. i think the sawdy's have a real children about the conso days of the i.pgh jeff is absolutely.

the sawdies are upset with the shi'a. and the saudis have a little shi'a in their family. they feel it's, furted by e consolidation of shi'a rule in iraq for the first time. time. >> chicharlie. thank you david . last to us failed a scremens >> it's believed to give all on. they have scheduled and speculated for derrick aids about the origins ever mass in the universe but the concrete cause has yet to be proven.

the creating god particle could funlt ofundmently change the wae look at the universe. here to join us is elia randal. i please to note her book is recently out "knocking on heaven's door" how physic and scientific thinking and the modern world. pgh. explain to us what we think. first of all, let's start there when we say the word particle what do we mean? pgh it's a really good question in the sense we are digging down deeper inside of the matter. we see the table top and we go down to atoms and they are not

fundmental. in fact, the pro ton is made up of smaller gone text of quarts. what is so interesting isthu can't get it back in your mouths. >> what he we see mass wha what? >> einstein taught us one way o. it's response is to a force it tells you response to frawf guy and i.-- gravity and it shows yu response to force. mass can be measured and identified. it's a theory.

and conceived by peter higs in the 90's, cecialght? pgh. >> the whoalt anythingsmechanit. we doacialt have any hard evidence in fact the mechanism is a stherry and it's one possible ex-per municipality juan of the reasons we do those is if there was the able to generate a hig bose. pgh there is the notion that weaver some evidence tell me about it. >> there is some ifd tha evident this apartment kel coul particl.

there are people believing that this announced would have rollednt ft. lauderdale ball. we did all of the these tests and figuring out that ins was know sufnl thirng, what would you an and other think about the fist yiks and the way the university works. >> it would not rule out the mechanism and there would b more complicated de underlying structure. we have already talked about what could be the al termtive. and then you want to think about are the ecpermental conhe is wents to bows around how do we test it. >> charlie nmplet.harlie: theree same time. >> different scientists. >> what is the significant oftwt to run through there.

zplrnlgt if they had bolt seen the same thing and that multiwas true. e ecperment saw a strong hint and the other had a little lites ever o ind. lites patient the one. reasons is that the events tha are interesting happen only one out of a trillion time. they happen at a very rare track chun of the time. that mean you have to look carefully to identify it aren't making precise measurementslike they were trying to stream math. zplrnlgt. >> s it's an ex-oardillustratio. >> i'm noltd sthush what thatme. i think what wife gon done whats

interesting that we can boil it down. a lot of times people are confused at the number of particles. umplet you are looking for the underlying series in nature. and how does this help-- >> suppose you approached it wat the way they roo acts or interability. , it's the next step. we have this assumption ever the unr lights. ant around the matter's most basic elements i want i to read that to me. the standard model is the most days stick strurk tour we have seen before. >> and it has pro tons and newty

have i have news. it tells you theorlsers that were interact. it's necessariy and there is a lot of strurk for for the forces. >> charlie. >> ?mplet: people in the mediag. a lowee element man. and he or people of what o had written. >> used good's parlt kel.and he, wre, wre z why would anyone even think about that? >> pgh it is in a sense true that without elementary school farpart kelin factwe could justk

we should not take the name in vain. >> scharly. >> ?mplet whavain.: char hi.vai. vain. >> charlie: what do we need tose data. the lark collider this giant mache that excels rates the pro tons and making particles has been increasing the rate in which it creates these collisions every year subsntially. next year there will be four times the amount of date at that and they will win down thi will. >> the reerch to go around ittrk

after time it goes around after 20 minutes it gets ackles sell ratessed to a high energy. >> you can make part dells withe as municpal collisions as would be. zplonkts what ner doing is focusing the beans around goaltender a lots eveevenone ou. >> is there any possibility thag faster than the speed of live fer life. he e. >> it's been in the news lately. but it has no charge zplrchlt and because of new it can travel

long disit is ans before it teracts. from the shoot to italy. >> the reason they are doingthae interesting properties. it turns out they are dirch and different and change into then sifts. >> they claimed to have made am. can you tell us we ar how you cp them out. comrchlt these are people that know what 2 it it looklike. and so from that we can conclude

that there is still something interesting to know about where is the experiment going wrong if that is true. this is a mour important pointf doesn't mean you just throw a way everything that was there. the success of paragraph iss undeniable. even if einstein's theory is was to be wrong when they going high precisiopreinstruments. pgh it's more than gravity. we know under lying is rel fifety. we still hughes these laws to are predepict-for-where a by-law is going to larchltd. -- land it shows there is more underlying theerry

that surround if have we discord gravity is a weaker force than we imagine i? if you compare it to the ear two party dells. it's industriatrillions of time. don't forget we had the entire ermt acting on this. but if you had tbro elementary school part neshes they are so blarng and they have so littl mags and that their interaction is nect acial. e we so o to things thatneee way the world worked in terms of the universe may not be te. that we had lived well with a seven pose t provincialpostilat.

>> and it was done with moreknoe alternative theories and the world we don't know. >> so in the following sens itc. the same sense that the world of an atom looks nothing like the world of the table. >> the wornl of the table isthe. but it could be more fundmental ways to understand it. the goal of wart wells is wreally to get at. what is the underlying featu at the unioners verse at the scales he have study so far. it doesn't mina earning about the universe is wrong but it's niece too. >> would it could gody mexes ord

blah we measured so f that could be h. it doesn't negate what we know so far. what is the question you, you prestigious ooprestige prestigid zplrnlgt. >> i once said if you know there answer. there are different ways yo. win. questions we will be able to answer. the larpg questions, why gravity is weak. that could tell it's a depp and

fundmental space. are in similaritifull symmetrie. the distanltd energy scales you can ask what is gravity fundmently? what is myspace and time fundmently? and there are questionse will never answer are there other inn vergs? pgh explain to me what do we mean by time tramp. >> what we meany time tramp is going bar back backwards in timf movies like time trample. when you see a me with time travel it doesn't make sense. >> zplcialghts from physic othyo back and forward in.

in fact you may be able to go in different directions but the quo is karcit's hard to make sense . at a more detailed level it's hart to see. here is another s nsteinboo. inn stiefn said the most income prehenlsabilitpreacial mings tea reasonably wonderful thing. it comes up a lot. it's worth predictions that work. it's a book books. what is the question i would like to know the eafns to. what are th limits. pgh some team say that the ecircumstances jacentral discovo

mary the cosmos and the world. we have seen a lot of over lat. there has a history i over lapsf history. one d'or matters right now is about dark matter. what is the mat he were that didn't inter act by it matters so that could be a part coal. -- parts kel. thaa part coal.apart coal. there are other questions about was there a period ever e. pangs. can we veshfy that. there is a lot of areas overlapping from the ?awrl and d the large. we do live we he taken you to

physics 101. "newsweek" this week there is her story. in sear of the good gl particle a word she doesn't necessarily love join citses have spent decades looking for the bug. they have gotten one step closer to the fiebledzing d unlocking the mystery of how we all got here. >> pgh that is right.th is righ. one things that was encouraging was about h excited people are about that. >> you mean the world ofphysics. >> people do want to flow theorg qoation r qoation r questions. to -- president clinton says abouk differently and encourage you to make smarter decisions about the

world.