correspondent discusses the state of christians throughout the region. >> i think you often hear christians making that point, that their future isn't necessarily guaranteed in the region. >> and, from american voices, jon meacham.

>> reconciliation begins, i submit, in the mind rather than in the soul, though the two are neighbors with porous borders. >> next on "need to know." >> announcer:'s to know is made possible by bernard and irene schwartz, the john t. macarthur foundation, josh and judy westin, the cheryl and phillip milstein family. corporate funding is provided by mutual of america, designing customized and group retirement products. that's why we're your retirement company. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. this is "need to know." >> thanks for joining us. the last of the american troops

have left iraq, just in time for christmas. and with an eye towards next year's election, president obama is already touting the achievement. of course, the debate has resumed about just what the united states accomplished there. was the overthrow of saddam hussein worth the loss of almost 4,500 americans and tens of thousands of iraqi lives? on this christmas weekend, we focus on another aspect of the story -- just what saddam's ouster has meant for christians in that country. what you might not know is that since the 2003 american invasion, hundreds of thousands of iraqi christians have fled. this after a series of attacks by muslim militants. it's been reported that as many as 54 churches in iraq have been bombed. and in some areas, it has been too risky to celebrate christmas openly. correspondent martin himmel recently visited baghdad. but our story starts in canada. it contains graphic images.

>> announcer: raja shara's studio apartment in toronto isn't in any way remarkable. not for a religious middle-aged woman. on her nightstand, there is a photograph, some rosary beads and a crucifix. but there's another item there that catches the eye. it's a bullet. a reminder of the attack in baghdad last year that left her wounded and killed the young woman in the photo, her 22-year-old niece, ragda. 47 people died after five gunmen stormed "our lady of deliverance" catholic church in the iraqi capital in october 2010. this video, posted on youtube, was said to be shot at the hospital shortly after the attack. >> and then the terrorists come into the church, lock the door and they kill everyone!

everyone, even the youth. my niece, she is 22 years old. she is a bride, she is an engineer and she had a baby. she stand with me, and she is afraid. and she say a bullet is in my back! >> reporter: she was my life, says raja. i only pray for my niece she says. iraqi christians now living in canada, pray for victims like raja. shortly after the attack on the baghdad church, the vatican airlifted her and other wounded to rome for emergency treatment. the pope met with her in a private audience in late 2010. and then the vatican arranged for her to get religious asylum in canada. these days, the former high school science teacher walks with a limp from her wound, but she is safe in toronto. and she now prays freely at a

church where mass is celebrated with this mostly iraqi congregation. canada takes in more iraqi refugees per capita than any other country in the world, including the untied states. why does canada take in so many refugees? >> these are people whose churches have been destroyed, whose daughters have been violated, whose priests have been beheaded. >> reporter: rev. majed el shafie received religious asylum in canada and now lives in toronto. majed says he was tortured and imprisoned in his native egypt for being a christian activist. he says one of his torturers carved out this cross on his upper back. today he runs a human rights group, one free world international. its goal is to raise awareness of and arrange help for persecuted christians like raja. egyptian christians, like iraqi christians, have been the victims of violent attacks. and the attacks have escalated. 25 christians were killed last october in a clash with security

forces in cairo. they were protesting the partial destruction of a church in aswan. >> what i know is their scars are my scars. their pain is my pain. their experience is my experience. and they are my people. and i will not leave them behind. >> reporter: in fact, last september, majed convinced two canadian lawmakers to join him on a trip to baghdad to investigate the church attack that wounded raja and killed her neice. canadian senator don meredith is also a clergyman. once in iraq we are confronted by the persistent danger. we need bodyguards to make our way to our lady of deliverance church, where raja was wounded and her neice ragda killed. as we travel there, a lead car sends out signals to jam the possible detonation of any

roadside bombs. the priests warmly greet the visitors from overseas. they are the lucky ones. two other priests were killed in the attack. and today just serving their congregation is a dangerous business. they show the delegation where five gunmen, whom they suspect were al qaeda, stormed into the church firing on the worshippers and throwing hand grenades. this is the spot where raja shara was wounded and fell among the dead. a priest says the blast was so powerful that body parts became stuck in the chandeliers. >> this is part of the bomber part of the bomber, the suicide bomber this is part of his body. >> reporter: raja's niece ragda was a few months pregnant. this is where she hid with the other frightened worshippers. the priests say this is ragda's hand print. >> this is one of the last thing she did she put her hand on the wall and this is her actual blood. according to another priest, ragda spoke her last words to

her unborn child. >> the last thing she told him that take care of yourself baby you will not see me again. then the terrorist explode himself here and she died. >> reporter: the unborn child also died. throughout the four-hour incident, the priest tells us that iraqi security forces stood outside and did nothing. the military said they did their best to stop the attack. >> want us to believe that they are coming like superman and take the terrorists and put them in the prisons. >> reporter: according to the priests, only after the terrorists blew themselves up did iraqi security forces storm the church. and then, the priests claim, police stole jewelry and mobile phones from the dead and wounded. a christian iraqi mp says there was an investigation and critics are paying too much attention to the theft. >> you are focusing on some thief. >> do you believe this investigation was real! >> is not. it was a big lie! >> reporter: the canadian

delegation wants answers for victims like ragda. her tomb stands just outside the damaged church. >> they want to kill our bodies, but they cannot kill our soul because our faith is not the faith of killing or the faith of violence. our faith is the faith of forgiveness. >> reporter: after three hours inside, the bodyguards are getting nervous. its getting dark and we have been here too long. the word is out that foreigners are visiting. foreigners who could be a tempting target for an attack or a high price kidnapping. >> just the level of the persecution is unbelievable. to kill innocent people like this in the church just because they are christians? just because they don't believe in what you believe. and this is justice? and the cover up from the government, how can you be attacked for four hours and the government does nothing to protect you.

and we see the victims and we see the people's heart broken and nobody cares. nobody cares back home. >> in many ways iraq is a test case for arab democracy. so far the score is mixed. sectarian strife and corruption are still big problems. how minorities like the christians will be treated will in many ways give an indication if democracy can take root in this country. >> reporter: the delegation takes it case to the iraqi parliament. as we enter we come upon memorials commemorating 12 lawmakers assassinated in recent years, the last one this past september. most of these lawmakers believe their colleagues were killed because they have formulated a new constitution that is a bedrock for democracy, it grants equal rights to all religious and ethnic minorities. but no matter what the constitution says, few religious groups seem immune from attack, not even the majority, the shiite muslims.

in just the week we were there over 40 iraqis were killed in two ambushes and one car bombing, most of them shiites. >> the problem is not only christian, you know the terrorists everyday they kill, now they don't kill christians, they kill medical doctors. so medical doctor who is christian they don't make a differentiation, any one who is a very good specialist. they kill him. from our experience it's christian or muslim or shia, there is a group of people they don't want iraq to be stabilized. >> reporter: what are the authorities doing to keep worshippers safe? deputy iraqi prime minister hussein al shahristani tells the visiting delegation that the iraqi government had made an offer to the christians, they, themselves could help protect the church. >> they could nominate some of their youth to be part of the iraqi security forces, who could be trained quickly and equipped to be able to defend those churches.

but the response was that churches prefer not to have any armed people inside the complex. >> reporter: the official investigation into the attack on the baghdad church was inconclusive and it is that dangerous ambiguity that may explain why so few of the parishioners at this toronto church are planning to return to iraq anytime soon. here, raja prays for the speedy arrival of her brother now stranded in jordan and for the survival of christianity in iraq. it's 2000 years old, but there are fears it could face extinction. >> when i saw ragda's hand on the wall. this hand become symbolic of the pain and suffering of the christian community in the middle east. i feel its part of my responsibility for not

succeeding to protect her and not saving her life. i blame myself. i blame the people that remain silent about these crimes. i see more bloody hands on the wall. >> how are christians being treated throughout the middle east? for that, we turn to anthony shadid. mr. shadid has reported from the region for 15 years and is now a correspondent for "the new york times." he has won the pulitzer prize twice for his newspaper reporting and has completed his third book "house of stone," which will be released in march. it's about his family's ancestral home in lebanon. anthony shadid joins us now from boston. welcome. what was the condition? what was life like for christians in iraq under saddam hussain and what is it like now he is gone?

>> it struck me back in 2003 and 1998 when you talked to christians there was less a -- let's say an admiration of saddam hussain but more a fear of the aftermath if he was to go. there was a pronounced worry that if saddam hussain fell there was going to be anarchy and chaos and their community itself was too weak to be protected on its own terms and they would face a great threat in prolonged unrest and that is what we saw in iraq to a certain degree. the fears that were pronounced came true. christians as community in iraq were just too weak. they were too divided to put forth a concerted voice in the turbulent politics that followed. and as the segment pointed out the attack in 2010 was a culmination of the attack in

2003. >> have christian communities felt safer under strong men and dictators? >> what you see in the middle east in syria and iraq, is a fear of the unknown. that is alfear that is felt by the society at large. is it by no means specific to christians themselves. but there is a pronounced notion in countries that i mentioned that they stand to suffer in a time of chaos and uncertainty. you are hearing in syria right now where the same arguments for a negative legitimacy. we don't know who is going to protect us and we don't know where we are going to find safeguards. the same sentiments you are hearing today are the same as in iraq back in 2002 or before the invasion in march of 2003. there is a fear of the unknown. we have seen it manifested in a lot of ways by emigration. people have left not willing to

deal with what the aftermath might bring. >> there are sizable christian communities in arab countries 10% in egypt. 5% in syria. a third in lebanon but a smaller population to begin with. how have these people fared you should the arab spring? >> if you like historically at what christian arabs represented to the region it was a forceful voice in societies. it was a forceful community and a community that did not exclusively identify itself as christian. they saw themselves as broader vision of what the societies represent. that was especially the case for the past 100 years at the end of colonialism they were a part of the political discourse in egypt and syria and iraq. what we have seen lately and it is more pronounced now is a notion of christians identifying

themselves first and foremost as christians. that they identify themselves as a christian community that they aren't as forcefully taking part in the debates underway about what the societies are going to look like after the arab uprisings. >> let's look at egypt. since the fall of hosni moe bark there have been dozens of killings and attacks on christian houses of worship and christian communities, places, neighborhoods where christians are in a majority and sometimes it's said that the security forces do nothing to stop them or to protect these communities. what's been going on? why are christians left so exposed by the departure of hosni mubarack? >> i think you should point out that there are deep suspicions that mubarack had a hand in the sectarian tension. and we have seen this formula written time and again in the arab world where the governments stoke sectarian fears as way to

divide and rule. you are hearing that in syria these days. but in egypt you have to look at the atmosphere. there is i think a pronounced sectarian tension that comes from the rise and power of the ultra conservativist faction of islamists. there is a security void in the country right now. it became vulgar at some moments about when the protests largely christian protesters protesting what happened to a church in southern egypt. when you had egyptian television cover this it cast the christians as outsiders and foreign agents. this is what is dangerous about egypt. since the christians are not part of the community and don't have equal rights as citizens and these can be manipulated by the powers that be that have ulterior motives. since the military is trying to curry favor. >> you just completed your new

book looking at lebanese christians. what have you learned about the community, the community of your own family? >> the book was about a town in southern lebanon 100 years ago that has withered as the borders are drawn across the middle east. you know what struck me in working on this book is how these borders have shaped the middle east physically and mentally. we have borders that didn't exist for centuries and that has made the communities smaller. the christians not being a part of a broader fabric in the middle east and part of smaller ones. but it has drawn borders in the sense of how we define ourselves. it comes back to 50 years ago or fourth and or 30 years ago, christians were part of the debates that were underway in the societies over what shape the societies would take. now more and more and especially in my generation, christians are identifying themselves first and

foremost as christians and organizing as christians articulating their concerns as christians. and you hear voices worried about what where that leads us to. if we can't build coalitions and be parts of ideologies that shape the countries we are confining ourselves to a small part of the societies and perhaps one that doesn't have a future. >> in the eastern mediterranean and in the middle east we're talking about some of the oldest christian churches in the world some of the oldest christian communities in the world but the numbers are dwindling. can you foresee a day when they disappear entirely from christianity's historic home? >> absolutely. we also had community, the jewish community in the arab world that was a vibrant part of the region and played decisive roles in politics in the arab world and that community is extinct in the region. you hear christians making that

point that their future is not guaranteed in the region. that future is going to rely or two things, one on how the broader community the political class of the societies build the countries that are countri countries that are in tumult today. that they disappear is not guaranteed but that there has to be something changing. there has to be a shift in citizenship is guaranteed in the societies that are built in the years ahead. >> thanks for joining us. >> my pleasure. >> announcer: this is "need to know." >> this week online, stop by the pitch room and tell us what stories we should be covering in the new year as the presidential

campaign gets into full swing. visit the "need to know" site at pbs.org. >> on american voices this week, we turn to jon meacham, who offers his thoughts about the path to reconciliation between muslims and christians. >> nearly a half century ago, during the second vatican council, the roman catholic church issued an eloquent document on how christians should view those of other faiths, noting that "from ancient times down to the present, there is found among

various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history. at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a supreme being. this perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense." humbly and wisely, the church added, "she regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men." such noble words. followers of the great monotheistic faiths would do well to heed them today. some would say that requires the changing of hearts. my own view is that the surer route lies through the intellect. extremists often derive their inspiration from literal interpretations of texts that

should rightly be read not as associated press reports from the ancient world, but as theological and literary enterprises requiring independent intellectual assessment. what if "jihad" is really a metaphor for spiritual struggle? what if the work and words of jesus can only be understood in the context of first-century messianic theology? the scriptures that shape us -- and which feed conflict -- are the products of human thought. so reconciliation begins, i submit, in the mind rather than the soul, though the two are neighbors with porous borders. the second vatican council wrote, "the church reproves, as foreign to the mind of christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion." here's hoping all such thoughts of discrimination and of hate can become foreign to every other mind, too.

>> on the next edition of "need to know," the evangelical vote in iowa can make or break a presidential candidate. but will it during next week's caucus. >> i think it was my wife afterwards who said, "you know, bob, if we could take those six and put 'em in a blender and just have the strengths come out and have one candidate." we would have a perfect candidate. >> down to the wire in iowa. on the next "need to know." >> that's it for this edition of "need to know." for more, join us online anytime at the "need to know" site at pbs.org. from all of us here at "need to know," happy holidays. we'll see you next week. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com

tp the john d. and katheri macarthur foundation. pjosh and jujosh and judy l ap aand philip milstein fa. corporacorporate funding is pry mutup mutual mutual of ame customized individual and group retirement products. that's why we're your retirement company. ti wersstation from viewers lik. thank you.

>> rose: welcome to our program. toninight a conversation with actor matt damon and dector cameron crowe about their new film "we bought a zoo". >> to me it was... it wasn't even about the animalstor zoo it was about this guy who... it was this epic love story about this guy who... just the person he was in love with was gone and he was trying to... he's trying to... struggling desperately to keep his life together and family together and help his kids through that transition while he going through it. and there was something that seemed really heroic about that and wonderful and resonated with me. >> reporter:. >> rose: we conude with ali

soufanny who interrogated key al qaeda detainees. >> if you look at the efficacy. it said padilla was caught in may of 2004. so if you brief anyone in washington about the time line of waterboarding it makessense. we start waterboarding in abu zubaydah in may, 2002. we arrest padilla in may, 2003. however the kaefsy memo is wrong. padilla was arrested in mae of 2002. months before waterboarding. so date brs r being changed. >> rose: matt damon, cameron crowe d ali soufan when we continue.

captioning sponsored by rose communications

from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: in 2006, a journalist named benjamin me moved his family to a house in the british countryside. it had 12 bedrooms and a lovely garden. the catch: it also contained 250 exotic animals. despite logistical challenges, mee and his family preserved the zoo, which is currently still open. the story of his adventure is a new movie. it is called "we bought a zoo" and here is the trailer. >> hustle, hustle, we're late. all right, oh, hi. all right. bye. >> bye, dad. >> i thought maybe dinner for three. >> thank you. >> or four. >> hey, rosie, am i doing

anything right? >> you're not like other dads. lots of them don't havehair. but that's good. >> attempt to start up. >> i shall try to start over. >> sunlight. joy. >> i salute you and the great times we had together and i quit this is exactly what we've been looking for. it could get complicated. >> what's so complicated about this place? (lion roaring) >> it's a zoo. >> daddy! i want to live here! >> welcome to your zoo. >> this is what you want, it's not what i want. >> at the risk of stating the obvious, you're insane. >> you don't even need any special knowledge to run a zoo. what you need is a lot of heart.

you argoing toove your new enclosure. >> we need somebody who can take charge of this place or else we and all these animals are gone. >> i'm trying to give the kids an authentic experience. >> stop before zebras get involved. >> there's two zebras, there's a lion, there's 47 animal species. >> it will never last. >> if you stick with me, i will give this everything. >> well, that's good enough for me. >> i think you're incredibly pretty. please don't take offense i don't hit on you. >> i'd be offended if you did. >> thank you. i think. >> i like the animals but i love the humans. >> all you need is 20 seconds of insane courage. and i promise you something great will come of it. >> you coming? >> rose: with me is cameron crowe the director and matt

damon who stars as benjamin mee, i am pleased to have them both at this table. welcom >> thank you. >> rose: you should be embarrassed. this is so heartwarming, isn't it? >> we put our hearts into it, definitely. it's a story from the soul, i think. >> rose: how did you find it? was it your... i read the book "we bought a zoo," but benjamin mee and it struck me as one of those stories about the human adventure, you can't really make it up. the guy follows his instincts and finds the whole world opens up to him. and that kind of story really depends onhe kind of performances that we had and matt and i really made the journey together. >> rose: but you said... i think i read this. you wanted to put joy in the world. >> yeah. i thought it was time to just... >> rose: we need some joy. >> put a little piece of joy out there. >> rose: and you? he calls you up and says this is the character, this is the story and you said... >> but that was one of the things he said to me. one of the first things about joy. he said "i want to put a piece of joy out into the world."

he said "this is a good time to do that. and that's what i want to do." so that was what... that was one of the this that really gripped me about this idea of doing this. obviously i was worried that was a kind of a lifetime channel version of this movie that would be too saccharin and wouldn't be something that i'd want to spend six months of my life doing but ceron is... that's where he... he lives in that place of emotion and humor and walks that line better than anybody and so if i was going to take a shot on material like this, it would be with him. rose: did you rewrite the script? you had to work on the script and make it less... >> i did. i did. i thought we'd go from the inside out and just make it about real characters and the choices that you make and there's, like, such a wonderful authenticity about matt's work and i just wanted to work with him so much and i thought two of us together kind of hammering

out the path on this. we make a movie that would leave a feeling with you so you'd leave that theater and it's just kind of... it's surrounding you. >> rose: did you tell him... i read a story that you told him... he told you not to read the script in the beginning? >> well, he gave me script but he also gave me about an hour and a half worth of music that he had put together. you can't call it a mix tape anymore, because they're not tapes. but it was a c.d. that he left me with and helso gave me the film "local hero." >> rose: i love that. peter regert. >> peter regert. and he said "these three things, digest all of them, that's the feeling i want them to be. ". >> rose: hoping you would be on the same page she was in >> yeah. it really just a way to give me more information to make a decision because the real thing as an actor is when you say yes, that's t moment and then

you're off and running and you're completely committed at that moment and you're committed until the day the movie comes out. it is... and you have to commit to it that way. you're in the fox hole at that moment and you can't get out and so we obviously... they're all educated guesses for us. you've got the director and the material and the role and the rest of the cast and who else is on the crew but, you know, those pieces don't always add up to.... >> rose: what was it about benjamin mee that you wanted most of us to make sure that we got, understood, that made him interesting beyond the fact that it was senate this environment. >> because to me it was even about e animals or the zoo it was about this guy who it was this epic love story about this guy who just the person he was in love with was gone and he was

trying to... he's trying to... struggling kind of desperately to keep his life togethernd keep his famy togethernd help his kids through that transition while he's going through it and there was something that seemed really heroic about that and wonderful and resonat with me just as somebody who has kids and has a wife and i don't know what the hell i'd do without her and so in talking with cameron, that was really where we felt like that was our center. and if wead that... >> rose: find the place where the mother was not there. >> yeah. find... find this kind of desperate struggle to... this fight for your family that just really was a very life-affirming thing at the center of it. >> rose: how do you do that as a director? >> well, we had conversations early on that were incredibly inspiring because matt who knows

family and love in the home very well as guy wanted to tell a love story that is about a figure who's no longer alive when scene one happens. so how do you do a love story where the person isn't there? well, you play it in every scene. and it's a version of that love. and how much are you going to carry with you of the memories and how much do you have to move on? and these new impulses and these new people that i'm meeting. how much can i connect with them? and what kind of instit am i going to follow to go forward? and what happened is we made this movie where the whole journey is revealed in the last two words where we see the woman that he's in love with the whole movie, she appears in a flash back that he acts out for his children and the last two words of the movie tell us that the woman has guided the entire journey. and that's the love story matt plays in the movie. >> rose: take a look. this is an excerpt where benjamin talks to his kids. here it is. >> it's a zoo! >> well, yeah. look, these animals need

somebody to rescue them >> animal need to be rescued? dad, my friends and my whole life is here! man, you got expelled, all right? what am i going to do? wham am i supposed to do? am i going to home school you? >> no. >> right, so what did we talk about? a new place. a new start. >> this is what you want. it's not what i want. >> what? >> the zoo. i'm moving to a zoo. >> we bought azooik! >> yes, we did. we did buy a zoo. it needs some work. >> rose: just tell me about the scene, both of you. how you saw the scene, what was interesting about the scene. >> it's the father starting an adventure th usually would belong to the kids. so the father is saying yes, we bought a zoo! what's wrong with that? >> totally logical choice. >> rose: doesn'tven want to zoo. >> we shoot the scene where the kids said idn't you tell me

sometimes zoos are a prison for the animals?" "well, yes, but not this zoo. this zoo is about taking care of endangered species." so is the beginning of father and son story that happens roughout the movie. it's powerful. >> rose: has parenthood changed the way you approached acting at all or is it only a scene where you're doing a scene that involves children. >> no, i'm... i've become fond of saying... and it's kind of a silly thing to say but the story "the grinch who stole christmas" there's the mont at the end where his heart grows like five sizes. that's what it felt like happened when i met my four kids you know? and so what... as a result i just find... i mean maybe i've gone soft or something but just everything i find emotion in general is much more readily available to me than it ever was before. >> rose: and especially a film like this where there's an element of that? >> there's a lot of crossover,

yeah, something like this with my life and and we were sitting out there at that zoo kind of ruminating about this stuff and, yeah, it was... we were all very, i think open. i think everybody, the crew, too. there were a lot of parents and a lot of... we were all there for the right reasons. >> rose: there's also this theme of taking risk. >> yeah. well, at the center of cameron's movies, all of them, the central character doesing? the first act that seems totally crazy to everybody else but it's something they that they need to do. their inner voice is telling them do it. and the whole movie becomes an exploration of that decision and the consequences of that decision and ends up being a celebration of the person who listened to that inner voice. d i think that that's just something that you probably did to choose the life that you chose and i know i did to choose the life that i chose as opposed to being a doctor or lawyer.

>> rose: an inner voice that told you... >> i've got to do that. >> rose: yeah, exactly. >> somebody told me recently that they had an extension of that theory which is that if you don't listen to that little voice it goes away. and then you don't have that anymore which i completely believe. >> rose: boy, that's a terrifying thought. >> it is. because to be out there just free and easy with no little instincts guiding you or giving you a tip, that's truly scary. >> rose: do you think everybody if they listened carefully would find it? would hear it? or do you have to... i mean, is it easily unheard i guess is the better question. >> i think it probably depends on who you are. i just watched this documentary about u2 and saw the young bono and he's just singing in just this, like, the force of... just beautiful everything that was pouring out of him, whether he was channeling it or whatever was happening it was awesome and clearly and even the other band membs say, like, we met this

guy ango, like, yeah, man, i want to ride with that guy. you can feel it. so i think for some people it's pouring out of them and for others it might be a softer kind of voice. >> rose: when did it happen to you? was it at school or before school? >> you know, i was... my mother is a professor of early childhood education and she was very... we had a very creative household and a very... she was very careful about urging us how to play and very open... the play was very open ended and from a very early age... she tells me now when i was two she knew that i was going to do this. i was constantly in this world of make believe and dressing up as one superhero or one person with an army helmet and running around or whatever it was. i was playing these roles and my brother is an artist, he's a painter and sculptor, he was building me cosmes or the

bionic arm and speing hours drawing it so i could wear it around and go bash it around in the backyard and so i think those signs were there and we were both very lucky to have the kind of parents and the kind of teachers who didn't squash that out of us. >> rose: who told you to follow your passion and encourageyou. how about for you? >> i loved writing. >> rose: writingwasirst. >> just loved the written word. had to follow that path. write it. you feel it, write it down my mom's a teacher and she encouraged me to do that and also took me to movies and say this is mike nichols, this is a very talented man. it's like okay, there's als this. these two things come together. rose: but was there also the sense that... from writing to directing, was that inevitable? >> not in the beginning. it was kind of... that was the dream beyond the dream. i think the first time i got

published in olling stone" and particularly when they sent me a copy of a story i did on led zeppelin and it arrived in the mail and it was on the cover. >> how old were you? >> 16. >> rose: the led accept lin story at 16 was on the cover of roling own? >> it was bizarre to think about it but i wasn't second guessing anything i loved that music. >> rose: this was conicled in what movie? oh, that's right. >> so it ended up being the subject of the movie i was able to make later. so i'min blue sky sailing now. it's all good. >> rose: so talk about people you've worked with. clooney. how competitive did you find him? >> he's unbelievably competitive. unbelievably competitive. i talked with jn about that all the time because john and i are working on something together and john did leather heads with george and john's 6' and quite an athlete but george

is very, very, very serious about basketball. >> rose: and about winning how was he as a director? i know you haven't been directed by him. >> phenomenal, if you look at what he's done it's fantastic. >> rose: do you want to do that? >> oh, yeah, yeah. that's what john and i are working on. we'vwritten something i'm going to direct next year. definitely. george... george is a... it's incredible, actually, what he's done with kind of coming from e.r., from being the handsome guy on "e.r." and he was just smart enough to know "if i just get my foot in the door." if you look at where his career is now versus where it was 15 years ago, it's remarkable what he's done. but it's because he's believably talented and he's so much more talented than ople realize. >> rose: that's ma what actors tell me about his directing. >> well, yeah, he has such a beautiful touch. just a great, great director.

but he's very smart. he's seen every movie, read everything. he's been underestimated for... i don't think anymore because he's now with "good night and good luck" and everything that's happened but even when steven soderbergh worked with him he's halfway through his first movie with george and said "let's start a company together." and everybody went "why is soderbergh doing a company with the guy from e.r.?" they're not saying that anymore. >> rose: what does this mean? "a brand new damon. why isollywood's smartest actor changing careers?" >> by being referred to as hollywood's smartest actor i'm sure george is going to... (laughter) >> rose: rivalry here, sir? >> i'll get an e-mail. >> what do you mean you're the smartest actor. because i'm going direct. >> rose: it's about directing.

it's a bit like bono, i think it was... i believe it was ed bradley doing a profile on "60 minutes" of bono and he said "look, you guys are one of the greatest rock 'n' roll bands. and bono said "one of?" (laughter) >> exactly, exactly. "watch your step." >> rose: so what are you going to do next >> i want to direct a movie in the spring or early summer. >> rose: you want to? you know what it is? >> i do. i've been writing it and kind of inspired by our experience on "we bought a zoo." i just loved the cast and i've been writing for a while and now i just want to start directing. >> rose: did you learn something about directing from being part of the process with this guy? >> sure, yeah. yeah. well, the biggest thing that i'd never seen before was the music, was incorporating that into the tual process. i'd never seen anybo do that and it really worked. for me, i've always been interested in what works on a practical level. the there's serious theory but if you're going to ma these

things, then what actually helps? and i found that that personally really helped me. and so it's something that i'll do. >> rose: were you looking for property that... you've been thinking about this for five years, ten years and all of a sudden something came and you said yeah, that's it. that's where i'm prepared to do. >> yeah, i just started working with john and it was very easy and fluid and reminded me of writing with ben. it was very fast and easy and he's just a... john krasinski is like george in the sense that he's known for being on this t.v. show "the office," and he's great on that. but the perception of him i would bet my house on the perception of him in ten years being very different than it is ght now. >> rose: is what happened to you anben sort of the way you imagined it might or dreamed that it might or... >> i don't even know if we dreamed it would be like that. it was likwinning the lottery and having your best friend win

it, too. it was really beyond... and then you know... i think the rose-colored glasses came off pretty early in the experience as we started to realize how competitive it is, how you have to kind of keep proving yourself and it's a rough business but i feel like we're in that next phase where we've kind of weathered that decade of... we've made it through that and i feel like we're set up to kind of go the distance now. >> rose: how would you define... i'm writing a book about friendship and if i came to you and said tell me wha.. take your friendship with ben, what's it about. what is it that makes a great friendship? >> i think for one thing, when it starts. i think... it was our teenage... when he got to high school... i was two years ahea of him. i was a junior when he was a freshman. and we just locked on each

other. we both wanted to be professional actors and we both knew it. it was weird because nobody in our families did this, you know? and there was something about this kind of crazy thing, this voice that we were listening to, but we had the same goals and the same... and at that age. i think it's very powerfuat th age, you're changi a lot, the whole world is opening up to you and we started going toew york together from boston. my parents didn't want me to do it professionally. they were happy that i was doing theater, they said we want you go to college, we want you to do as much theater as you can and when we're done then go into it professionally. and i think they were rightly concerned that had i gotten a big job at 16 it might have derailed things that i did need to kind of live through. but long story short, ben and i were having these incredible adventures and i have my own bank account with my own money

when i was 16 from local commercials and ben and i had literally a joint bank account and we would go dip into it to take trips down here and audition for stuff. >> rose: the point is you started early. >> is he always that age to you now when you're together? >> rose: that's a great question. >> yeah. yeah. >> interesting. >> and always will... there's a short hand. he can say something i haven't heard in 25 years, a line, and i'll remember the girl who said it to us and where we were, the thing and it just... it's just a way to... there's a short hand you end up having and when we went to write together that short hand really served us well because we just... all the diplomacy that you kind of go through in a lot of these creative experiences we chucked that out of theindow and we're brutally honest with each other and when thing we always felt early on was judge me for how

good my good ideas are not f how bad my bad ideas are. then you keep those ideas open. >> rose: but is there part of both of you that want to do mething? >>h, yeah. wee been dying to do something together and ben... we had a whole conversation about this last year as ben finally sai "look, i finally made it back." (laughter) it's like that mountain climber. oh, you went up the north face? wow, man. i walked. i just... you kno he's got his crampons and is really haggard and tired. but he said, you know, we've got to really be actively looking for stuff. we're finally in this place where these are the salad days and so we've already identified one piece of material that we really like. this idea of whitey bulger, this... >> rose: of course. of course. >> up in boston and terry winters is writing the script for souse hopefully that will come together. it could be great. ben would direct... >> rose: and you'd be whitey?

>> yeah. >> rose: great to see you. >> are we done already? i think i talk too much. >> rose: thank you, pleasure. >> so great to see you again. >> >> rose: ali soufan is here, as a former f.b.i. agent he interrogated key al qaeda detainees at the height of the war onerror. since his departure fro the f.b.i., he'sou! n outspoken critic of enhanced interrogation techniques. his new book is called "the black banners: the inside story of 9/11 and the war against al qaeda." i'm pleased to have him at this table obviously for the first time. welcome. >> thank you, sir. >> rose: let me talk about the f.b.i., about you. born in lebanon? >> yup. >> rose: came to the united states earlly. >> uh-huh. >> rose: what? 14? 15? >> i was about 16, 17 years old. i joined the bureau in 1997. the call happened in october of 2000. >> rose: so three year later you're a case officer. >> t lead case agent on the

u.s.s. "cole" investigation. >> yes, sir. >> rose: why did they make you an agent on that case? >> i was involved with the east africa embassy bombing. i was a case agent on an an important component of the investigation into the east african bombings which is the european components, the network, the logistical network that allowed al qaeda to function. even the claims of responsibility for the east africa embassy bombing came from that network was in london and it's called operation challenge and we worked closely scotland yard, the anti-terrorism branch on that. it was a very intesting case and from it i learned a lot because we found out the strong links between the egyptian islamic jiha network and al qaeda. >> rose: and so 9/11 you were where? >> i was in yemen. >> rose: what did you think when you heard that the planes had

crashed into 9/11 and one plane had gone into pentagon and another crashed in pennsylvania. >> we had no doubt in my mind... i personally had no doubt in my mind that it was osama bin laden. >> rose: and you believed that he and that organization at that time had the means and the ability toll do that? >> oh, absolutely. i mean, i've been working al qaeda for a few years before that. for about 40 years before that. and i tracked al qaeda not only from the east africa embassy bombing but i was in albania, i was in jordan, i was during the millennium plot i was in yemen before so we kind of like knew the network and the extent of thenetwork. i worked in many different countries around the world tracking al qaeda and so we knew how dangerous they are we knew how lethal they are and we knew that they definitely had it in their plans to attack the homeland. >> rose: but did yno