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funders. and by bloomberg. a provider of multimedia news and informion services worldwide. tonight the special edition of charlie rose, live analysis of the iowa caucus. >> rose: welcome to our coverage of the iowa caucuses at the time of this taping 11:00 p.m. eastern tonight tonight's results are too close to call. mitt romney and rk santorum tied for first place, ron paul is a cle third. whoever emerges as the winner this could be onof the closest contests in iowan recent memory, newt gingrich and rick santorum battling for fourth and fifth place, michellbachmann appears to be last, hunt man did not compete this evening, there are many questions the candidates will have to answer, for rom any the front runner why can't he close the deal with

voters? for santorum can he emerge as a conservative anti-romney, for paul, what are his long-term prospects? for gingrich and perry, can they change theirame in new hampshire and south carolina which vote next? and for bachmann, how long can she ng on. >> joining me from december rs moins is halperin. >> and al hunt, a washington editor in charge of bloomberg election coverage here in new york is rich lowry editor of the "national review" and joe klein, he is the columnist for time magazine i am pleased to have each of them this evening, so we go first to iowa. mark halperin, tell me, i want the answers to four questions, who are the winners and losers? which seems to be clear, what happened? what does it mean for each of them and who does what now? so let's just beginith an overview of what happened this evening. >> well, we don't know the final result and i think it is pretty clear now that the winner, the numerical winner will be either

rick santorum forum or mitt romney, more likely based on the vote as we talked at this moment, that santorum winds or we have a dead heat, the winner clearly is -- the two bi bigg winners are santorum and romney. >> santorum has a chance to be the long awaited alternative to mitt romney, he has a long of challenges to live up to that task but he does have the potential he will have to raise money and build an organization and define his message ande is going to have to contrast himself more with mitt romney, mitt romney believes as they can beat santorum pretty handilyne on one and the two candidates they fear the most, who they thought had a theoretical possibility of beating them, newt gingrich and the rick perry, on the other handthe other reason romney is a winner is i don't think either rick perry or newt gingrich will get out of this race which means even if michele bachmann does romney goes into iowa and new hampshire and south carolina as the only establishment candidate

with three more conservative candidates to try to divide up, most likely will divide up the vote and could win south carolina with theame kind of percentage or even a lower one than he got, than he got a victory or second place in iowa. >> albert hunt, welcome. >> hey, charles. i agree with part of what mark said but i vehemently disagree when he said mitt romney is a winner, he is not, mark, they thought they would win iowa and totally convinced of that and he got a smaller percentage of t vote against a demonstrably weaker field than he did four years ago. he is going to be the nominee, almost certainly but i think this was a very weak showing on his part, doubt ry much that santorum ca become the -- a viable alternative candida, every time somebod becomes the anti-romney they then have the spotlight focused on them and we find there are all kinds of defects, it is not a very strong field, i think the same thing is

likely to happen to rick santorum. i was with john huntsman and i was with him because he is the only candidate in new hampshire and he had a line when he was asked what message would you give to those people in iowa today? he said welcome to new hampshire, who cares? and i think that really is the bottom line of what happened in iowa. >> rose: so gingrich will go into new hampshire. >> bitter and mad. >> bitter and mad and ready to take on mitt romney, can that hurt romney, is is romney vulnerable to anything gingrich can throw at him he has not yet heard. >> if you are asking me, charlie, i think, in fact, if you look at the last month or two, romney has escaped a great deal of criticism and attack, 45 percent of the ads in the state of iowa over the last month were negative gingrich ads, ireally is remarkable and clearly took a toll. i think romney will be a target of santorum, he will be a targe of newt for sure, he will be a

target of huntsman and that is saturday night sunday morning debate, i think mitch is going to get, they think they are in great shape and can't lose and even going to south carolina for a y and a half, i have never seen a new hampshire candidate do that before. this state has a funny way of not liking people who are foreordained orr daind to be the win sores certainly he is going, he is in a commanding position but i don't think -- i think he could have some trouble in the next six days. >> they may go to barack obama for some lessons on that. >> yes, yes. or george w. bush. >> charlie, one thing we didn't learn anything new. a weak front runner with a divided field that is unclear is going to produce anyone who is really a viable alternative. and i think there are two ways to look at romney's number tonight and we have seen it reflected in both mark and al's communities comments, on the one hand you can compare it to '08 and a flat line with that or a little worse. on thether hand, he didn't run the same kind of campaign he did

in iowa in '08 where he really banked everything on iowa. he was there constantly, he was leading most of the time until towards the end when he was over taken by huckabee, and this was -- he laid some groundwork for it but it was more an opportunistic kind of play at the end, so i think they have to be pretty happy with where they are coming out and one big ing. >> rose: could still win this thg? >> correct. so one big thing we learned that is really important. >> rose: i mean in the state of iowa. >> the big thing we learned that is really important to romney is that perry and gingrich were not as formidable as we thought. perry fundamentally irreparably harmed himself in the debates and newt gingrich was hurt by the ads but also has been hurt by his horrific performance over the last two weeks or so, when he surged and came back there are just three things he had to do in terms of his own conduct as a predicate for everything

else, don't seem grandiose, don't be erratic and don't get rattled and he is 0 for 3 and seems to be determined to continue to be 0 for 3 going into new hampshire. >> rose: can -- is the genius of what happened to rick santorum form in all the time there, is that he put together the huckabee coalition, evangelicals and others? >> yes, the evangelicals -- >> rose: this season. >> the evangelical turnout held up pretty close to what it was in '08, not quite 60, but close, and didn't get huckabee's number which was 40 or above, he got about 30. but was still good, he was rewarded by being there a long time, traveling almost as much as joe klein in the state of iowa, and -- >> far more, far more than me. >> and benefitted from being the last mantanding. and i will say this about him. he is -- he knows more and is more formidable i think than other iowa surprises like pat

buchanan who wasn't an officeholder, mike huckabee who was an officeholder but really didn't know much about national issues, bu now we will see how he performs when he really is on the big stage. >> rose: so before you come in with your overview, tell me what is going to haen to rick santorum between now and next tuesday? >> well, between now and next tuesday, he is going to start. >> rose: raising a lot of money. >> on the internet. >> rose: and a lo of people coming to to him that he didn't expect to be there. >> and of the candidates in the top tier he is only one who has room for growth as we have seen romney can't seen to get above one quarter of the republican electorate, and so you have the perry voters who are sympathetic to santorum, you have michele bachmann voters who are sympathetic to santorum and many of the newt voters and that is like nearly one-third of the vote tonight so a lot of that could go to santor, depending on how he behaves himself. now, he also has a newt gingrich problem, he does tend to say

thing that are embarrassing from time to time. you kno he talked about throwing money at black people, you know, the other day in sioux city. you know, he once claimed that the sexual scandal in t catholic church broke out in boston because of the liberal values in boston. i mean, these are silly things to say. but one thing you can say about santorum is that he is an extremist but someone who is a mainstream extremist, he is someone who comes out of the congress and has a base of knowledge, he also really lks his walk. she an honorable man who sometimes saysishonorable things, but the biggest point to be madabout this, about this caucus is that four years ago the republicans were completely demoralized by george w. bush. and about 120,000 peopl turned

out. now, four years later, they are all excited and ramped up to run against barack obama, who is the anti-christ, and 120,000 people show up. they don't like this field. and of that 120,000, i would venture to say it was probably fewer republicans than last time, because ron paul brought in a lot of independents. >> rose: mark, is it going to be either santorum or mitt romney now? >> one of those two is going to be the nominee of the republican party? >> no. i think -- i don't count on newt gingrich of john huntsman at this point, because if romney comes out of here weak and if al is right he has another sumable in new hampshire is party is going to look closely at alternatives to romney, the conservative movement has not been able to settle on a candidate, it is still the best thing romney has going for him as a weak front runner one of the weakest front runners in either parties in the modern e.r.a. all of these candidates in the race through florida or

at least south carolina but i think, i think at ispoint, santorum does have the second best chance, but i don't think he has much of a better chance, all thing considered than gingrich and we will have zero see about huntsman he has to perform in new hampshire, if he does then i think he would be right thereupon with the other two. >> rose: a lot has been made of the momentum that rick santorum form has and i think it was george h.w. bush who coined the turn the big mo coming out of iowa. can that momentum make a difference for him in new hampshire, al? >> yeah, of course it can, but i tell you what is different in those earlier days, even if the george w days and certainly certainly the gary hart days, it took place because that dominated everything, the big mo, and now -- i am certain without any data that the vast majority opeople who turned out in that iowa caucus today don't really know much about rick santorum form, he was as someone said earlier the last man standing they will know a

lot more about him in the next four or five days and i think it is a real question how he will withstand that, i am not sure he is going to prove as genuine as joe suggested, one thing i totally agree with joe on i think it is stunning only 120,000 people turned out. last time the democrats had two 50,000 people turn out for a caucus, the republicans this time said they are more energized than ever than they were last time, registration has gone up, there is no democratic contest and for them to only equal what they turned outlast time, it raises questions at least in that state about whether that enthusiasm everyone has been talking about i really there. >> rose: go ahead, joe. >> there is a secret weapon that rick santorum has in new hampshire, and that is that he is a roman catholic and there are an awful lot of conservative roman catholics in that state, and so i wouldn't be surprised on saturday night to hear rick santorum say, as a roman catholic i believe, you know, or

put up ads to that effect between now and then, because al is right, they don't know very much about him. >> the more ethnic and more social conservatives, that vote is there for him to go get. i think there are couple of vulnerabilities with santorum, one is he engaged in sort of 3:00 a.m. dorm room style discourse on hot button social issues which helped him make a radioactive figure in pennsylvan and lead to that devastating loss. >> 18-point loss. the other thing i think will be more potentially cut more with the republican electorate is they will come after him on earmarks and on his association with the buscher are a republican consensus in washington. he was one of the original compassion conservatives. >>ose: right. >> so-called, and that is not a brand of conservativism that is in vogue with republicans at the moment. >> what about ron paul? >> well, i mean, i think if he ends up with a fifth of the vote it said a lot about the

republican party and the mood of the party and not just republicans but independents in some states upcoming, in caucuses and primaries they can participate, i don't tnk he showed a capacity here to, despite some trimming of his sails in the last few days to reach beyond the people who currently support him. i have been surprised at how little effort the other candidates have made to try too diagnose what the doctor is doing that is working and trying to do opt him and appropriate some of his message, but i think he will be a forth gathering delegates on proportional rules for quite some time, i can't imagine him getting out of the race and i would be surprised if we didn't sethe candidates going forward and doing a better job of reaching out. >> if i could say quickly about santorum, i think he is more temperamentally suited to take the attacks that will come from mitt romney's campaign very shortly than sor some o the other people like perry and gingrich that were virtually eliminated by those attacks but there is a lot coming and he

does have a temper and i think understaffed and underfinanced and very difficult for him to fight back when those attacks star >> he is pbably exhausted because he has been working so hard too. >> rose: al, what about perry and the money he has and look at the music and say it is not my time? >> i think he will probably stay in at least through south carolina, maybe through florida, but he is yesterday. there is no way he can come back from those devastating setbacks of a few months ago. i have always hesitate to disagree with mark halperin because he always reminds me when i am wrong but i can't see any scenario by which newt gingrich comes -- you have done that twice tonight, watch out. the. >> rose: and you were in new hampshire. what, mk? >> i can't see anyway that newt gingrich -- >> rose: mark? >> how do you know where he is in south carolina? there hasablen't been any good polling there. >> i just think newt gingrich and i'm sorry, he had his moment and it was negative ads to be

sure, but there was a case to be made, and as richard, someone says he acquitted himself so poorly he tends not to do well when will is pressure. i think newt gingrich is history, and perry is history, and so is michele bachmann. >> your timing is perfect i think newt gingrich is going to the podium in iowa as we speak let's take a look and what he says. >> it is about jobs and the economy. we know that americans demand candidates with ideas and solutions to rebuild the america we love. [ apause ] there is only one reagan ite conservative in in election, and we just punched his ticket for new hampshire. applause ] ..

>> well, thank you, and i want to thank linda the majority leader in the house and greg my former colleague in the congress who really all summer held this together, when really it could have fallen apart. i want to thank everybody who worked all fall, particularly during the avalanche of negative ads, we want to hang the people of iowa, all through being drowned in negativity, everywhere we went, people were positive, they were receptive and willing to ask questions, they would listen, and they really wanted to get to the truth rather than the latest 30 second distortion and it really gave us a feeling that this process does work. i am delighted to be here tonight, and i think that we are at the beginning of an extraordinarily important campaign. a. applause ] the ultimate goal

of this campaign has to be to replace barack obama and get america back on the right track. bulet's be clear. one of the things that became obvious in the last few weeks in iowa is that there will be a great debate in the republican party before we are prepared to have a great debate with barack obama. and i think it is very important to understand that. and i want to take just a minute and congratulate a good fend of ours, somebody whose family we admire is rick santorum, he waged a great, positive campaign. and i served with rick, we had a great relationship over the years, and i admire the courage, the discipline, the way he

focused and i also admire how positive he was. i wish i could say that for all of the candidates. but here is the key thing to ask. it is not just about beating obama asmportant as that is. it is about what do we need to do as a country to get back on the right tra? and that is bigger than just replacing one person in the white house. that is fixing the congress. fixing the bureaucracy, fixing the courts, resetting the culture, getting the judges to understand that they operate within the constitution, not above it. there are tremendous steps we have to take and we he are to restabsh the work ethic and recognize we want to reward work, not redistribution, that we want to reward paychecks, not food stamps, and this is going to be a very important national conversation, but it is not just about here at home. we all have to understand, this will be a major debate with congressman paul, who had a very good night and i congratulate

him having done very well. the fact is, his views on foreign policy, i think are stunningly dangerous for the survival of the united states. and i think it is a very simple question, which i would be glad in the next debate to ask congressman paul, if you have a terroriswho is prepared to put a bomb and wear it as a vest, and walk into a grocery store or a mall or a bus and blow themselves up as long as they can kill you, why would you think that if they could get access to a nuclear weapon they wouldn't use it? and iranian nuclear weapon is one of the mostrightening things we have to confront for the future of every young person up here, and everyone out there, if they are going to live in safety they have to live in the world in which there is no iranian nuclear weapon, period.

>> so -- so there you are. that is part of what newt gingrich is sing, summarize where you think he is going with this. first of all he likes santorum. >> this is one very angry dude right now. i mean, you know, newt gingrich at this moment is a kamikaze airplane headed for the ss romney on saturday night, he just wants to take romney apart. and. >> rose: he is going to praise everybody but romney, but paul -- >> three times in the first four sentences he talked about the negative ads that romney, you know, womped him with over the last months, some of the most devastating ads that havei seen. but i think that newt has the capacity here to hurt romney more than romney thinks he can be hurt. i do not think, i disagree with mark, i don't think he has the capacity to be the mom knee.

because once -- >> rose: you don't think newt does. >> i don't think newt does, because once you start going off into this anger and negativity mode, it becomes very much harder for you to sell yourself as a positive politician. i think mark once said -- >> it is a major paradox there, when the positive candidate wants to riphe face-off of mitt romney, and this is one of the problems, he has had the last two weeks, he made his message about ads, right? that is what he snt the top of his remarks talking about. then he pot to his message which actually might sell but he is obsessed with this attack against him and he also really can't get out of this mode of being a pundit, we saw it a day or two ago and he commented on his own campaign. i don't think i am going to win. that is something you say when you are an analyst, it is not something you say wh you are a candidate and of course of course he a had to immediately reverse off one of his precinct captains saying we are work are

for you, but charlie, one step back -- >> rose: go ahead. >> i think reading up on margaret thatcher because the movie just came out and if you look at her, she had two sets of qualities, one, she was a principled as a desert monk, her rhetoric was excoriating and she had a great urgency about saving her country, that is the first set of qualities, experience, knowledge and great discipline. and i think wh we have seen in the republican electorate, they are attracted to people who have some version of that first set of qualities and when they realize they don't have the second set of qualities, they backed off them, so that's why we have seen cain, perry and newt rise and fall. >> rose: is that why the republican establishment most wants to see romney get the nomination? >> i think that is where eventually perhaps the republican electorate will work itself around to saying, you know what? we are going to settle for someone who has foremost this second set of qualities, and is weaker on the first set, that kind of urgency

and principle. >> rose: mark, what do you think romney will say to conservatives he hasn't already said now? is there anything else he can say? go ahead. >> that i am going on the nominee, that i am electable and that i have been endorsed by some conservatives and the i predict he will be endorsed by more after this result, i think the conservative governor of iowa will endorse him, if i could say because i have such respect for al and joe and i want to be clear, i don't think we disagree all that much, i think the reason gingrich still has a chance and some way the best chance i can see him winning some states, unlikely i thought before this result romney was overwhelmingly likely to be the nominee, i think that is the case more so whatever the final act is here but i think gingrich could win south carolina, it is very hard for me to see a state in which john huntsman or the rick santorum actually weats rom beats romney and eventually you have to beat him in a state. >> romy has been a mess, he

has tons of flaws but tough enough and smart enough and a series of debate this is month where he excelled. rough this weekend, one ends at 11:00 p.m., the next one starts at 9:00 a.m., i propose they debate all night on telethonhannel. >> rose: so these debates, al dash. >> well, charlie, let me run through quickly the candidates in new hampshire, because it is interesting. bachmann and perry won't be a factor, they will show up in the debate and that is all. >> i think that is sort of where he is now, he is not going to be a factor in the nomination, but he is going to get more votes than he got last time so when you calculate, he is there. john huntsman, who is about 12, 13 percent in the polls here, i think has the capacity to double that, he may not, he gets those mccain minded independents type voters here. mitt romney has to win here and he probably has to win fairly impressively. he has been in the 40s if he

goes down into the 20s, high 20s i think that is a terrible thing. the most interesting contrast is, the man chess search union leader, joe klein and i are the only ones to remember the days of william rowe. >> and it was an incredible force in the state under lowe and still has a lot of influence among those, we talked earlier about the conservativethnicks up here, i think joe mcquaid the editor probably made a huge mistake in endorsing newt gingrich, santorum would have been a more natural candidate. may not have been apparent at the time, it willbe interesting to see how that plays out over e next five or six days. if the union leader really goes all after gingrich which i am not sure they wilbecause i just think it is not there for him, that would hurt santorum a little bi if on t other hand they play it neutral santorum does va the capacity to get in the 20s here, the i think. >> i will disagree with al on one point, i think ron paul is going to continue to be a major factor in this race because you now have proportional voting.

>> i do too, joe. >> mitt romney has to get 51 percent of the vote between here and the convention if he wants to be the nominee. we haven't seen him go above 25 yet anywhere. so coming out of sou carolina, i imagine you are going to have a romney, you are going have an anti-romney and you are going to have ron paul, and then we will see whether romney can do it. >> rose: mark, do we know more about what the results look like this evening as more precinct or more caucuses are reporting in? >> .. >> the votes come in a percentage at a time, romney and santorum have gone back and, back and forth, separated by fewer than 1,000 votes. >> based on the reporting i have done, while i have no have not n talking, they are going to have are close l is not a whole lot of vote out in places that will shift dramatically, i have talked to both campaigns and both are cautiously optimistic that they can win t neither is

claiming based on their analysis of where the votes are that they will for sure, that is unusual, usually i find campaigns whethe they a being honest or not, suggest th they think they are going to win, both campaigns say they can win but have no confidence that they will. >> rose: any surprises here in this iowa results other than the surge for santorum in the last two weeks? >> the other biggest surprise. >> one of astonishment is the turnout factor. >> thats is not higher? >> yes. and also ron paul, he really did a version for years, conservatives have complained ron paul has gone into the cpac this event in washington where there is a straw poll and ruin the straw poll, quote unquote by bringing in all of his own support whores don't belong there. this is basically what hdid to e iowa caucuses, if you look at the entrance polls, where the -- in '08, something about 90 percent of the caucus goers who were republicans which you would expect, this year it is more like three quarts and among those independents ron paul just killed the other

candidates so he really imported his vote and it is also interesting i'd lodge cancally he killed, ideologically he killed it on moderates and liberals. >> and that option exists for him? >> al, sum it up for us as we leave the coverage of this ia caucus and look forward to new hampshire, in terms of obama and the outlines of a campaign to come in the general election regardless of who the candidate is? >> well, obama cheerily with eight and a half percent unemployment is a president who is in danger on reelection, my guess is the white house and david axelrod are pleased with the iowa results tonight, they don't have a very strong front runner, there wasn't any clarity, it that prospects for going on at least for a while. and i would say that right now as weak as obama is, that i would rather be in obama's shoes than the republicans at this very moment. >> rose: so you would think at

this very moment, obama should be paved in the general election regardless of who the candidate is? >> well, it would be 50.2 percent, charlie, i don't want to exaggerate. >> rose: 30 seconds, go. >> the irony is if the republicans could ever gather around romney i think romney would be a very formidable candidate against obama, the only one they have. >> rose: mark. looking ahead to the general election, going moment by moment. >> i agree with what joe just said, if romney could get it together and unite the party he would be formidable but i think she struggling to do that and seeing the first indication of that here today. i make the president a favorite until romney proves he can bring t party together and she a long way to do that as electron as he has been over the last month or so. >> he is selling himself to nservative, the autheicity what is he at his core? and if he doesn't done that yet can he do that? >> mark? >> i think that he is not really told his story, people have

mocked his stump speech in the last few days of this campaign, for citing song lyrics of patriotic songs, he needs to find a better narrative to prove she a man of consistency and not a flip flopper. >> he will remain the default candidate, that may well be must have to win and the primary, the nomination, and en against obama his great quality will be inoffensiveness when republicans are trying to make the election about a choice about obama. >> rose: and thank you, rich, thank you, joe, thank you, albert, thank you, mark. back in a moment. stay with us. richard holbrook last year was a huge loss to the world of foreign policy, his passing prompted an outpouring of testimony recalling his outsized

personality and momentous accomplishments, bill clinton said in the end what matters is there are a lot of people walking around on the pace of the earth today or their children or their grandchilen because of the waye lived his life, a new book, takes us through remarkabljourney of holbrook's life, includes a compilation of essays by those who knew him well along with a selection of articles by holbrook himself, it is called the unquiet american. joining me now two of the book's contributors goldstein is an author and former senior advisor to the office of the un secretary-general and two-time pulitzer prize winner journalist and an author andournalist and in the i am so pleased to have each of them here to talk about this. i nt to talk first about the idea of what it is that we ought most to be understanding about him. i mean all the public stuff is know. >> right. >> rose: clearly. we know about dayton.

we know about -- because he was a larger than life character. what do you want us to know? >> well, he is very hard for a single volume to contain this personality, because hwas the most voracious consumer of life and every aspect of the human experience. there was nothing, he wasn't interested in, there was no place on the planet where richard holbrook was a tourist. he was essentially a problem soer and since god knows the anet is rich in problems, he never ran out of things to do, and the fields that he embraced and achieved remarkable things in, asia, vietnam, the balkans, making peace in the bloodiest war since the second world war. in the field of culture,

starting the american academy in berlin in the field of medicine, even, hiv aids, which he forced the united nations security council to grapple with. the first time ever that a health issue had been so treated, gave it a whole new perspective. so his last mission was incomplete because he died very suddenly and unexpectedly, but i think these gentlemen will tell you more than i can, especially david road that in afghanistan and pakistan he was making remarkable headway and the things i have had admiral mullen, the admiral in the joint chiefs the this things that are working in afghanistan, not so much is working in pakistan now, but i think as richard holbrook were alive, things would not be

in quite the dire shape between the united states and pakistan, but but what is working in pakistan is on the civian side was planted b richard, so it is an astonishing career. >> rose: tell me about vietnam, because i first got to know him when he came back from vietnam. >> well, what most people don't appreciate is that the first seven years of richard holbrook's career were consumed with vietnam and it really had a tremendous impact on his career. i think one could argue that it is a paradigm of sorts. he grappled with the reality of vietnam for seven years, as a diplomat in saigon, in the provinces of washington, he grappled with the aftermath of vietnam as the assistant secretary of state in the carter administration dealing with the humanitarian crisis and the refugee prlem and i believe arguably he tried to apply the ssons of vietnam in subsequent chapters of his career, trying to learn the lessons of coercive

diplomacy in bosnia a and the limits of american power and american strategy in afghanistan, but it was really the seven years i think that shaped all of that. >> and i was going to sayin terms of the journalistic career partly was engaged in that too in vietnam as well, and even to the point of working with clark clifford on his book. >> yes. one of -- richard was always in search of mentors because s own father died when he was very young, and clark was and avril harry man and dean rusk were his three principle mentors and pretty good mentors, secretary of state dean rask who actually who actually told this unformed .. fellow he should take the foreign service exam and he did and he became the youngest ever diplomat in our nation's history and was addition patched to vietnam, but vietnam made a lasting impact on the rest of

his career because it was in vietnam that he rlized the limit to american power andthat how carefully we should prepare for military engagement and this was the lson that he brought to his final mission as well. >> rose: talk about that, and then we will talk about your personal experience, but in terms of afghanistan and pakistan, in my theory that he always wanted to have india as part of that sort of jurisdiction that he w given. >> he should have. >> he should have and that is the problem we face today is that the rival between india and pakistan plays on the ground in afghanistan with american troops caught in the middle and he knew that and he knew that pakistan was a key player in what is happening there, and you have seen a tremendous deterioration in the relationship between the u.s. and pakian, maybe that would have happened with holbrook working this, but i don't think so. he always -- he said to me over anand over again we need to make this a less transactional relationship and have to respect the pakastanis and their

concerns about india and the question, the only hope left for afghanistan is sort of what security guarantees would get the pakastani army to stop supporting the taliban? and they are. and that is the reality, they are not our ally, and they are the primary source of instability in the region and that is where richard imissed so dearly, he started the back channel and all of these talks that are talking about the taliban, he very quietly, over the top personality that i think was exaggerated, worked the back channels, never leaked to anyone. >> rose: the notion of an over the top personality was exaggerated or what was exaggerated? >> well, he was a, and we talked about this, there were times when he blew up and it was for effect. it was for effect, and calculated, and then i think in the funny thing about my two episodes with him, one in bosnia and afghanistan, he mellowed over the years and i think his tremendous achievement in ending the war in bnia, you know, filled him with a different sense, and he was -- i at this

he was different this afghanistan and not as aggressive as he coul could be sometimes. >> he knew, charlie, he had a ace in history, he was a storian hielf so there was a sense of calm about his role. he would never turn down any job that the president of the united states offered, however -- i mean he really drew the short straw with afghanistan, pakistan. but it was a great testament on the part of president obama with whom richard had no prior relaonship to hand him the toughest diplomatic portfolio and it wouldn't occur to richard to turn that down. he was not a young man and this was a very physically demanding job, but off he went. >> rose: but i mean was it hard for him knowing that he did not have the kind of connection to the president that he wanted? >> of course. of course. and how did it express itself? >> he couldn't have done this job without hillary standing right next to him, right behind him watching his back and he had that --

>> rose: what a job for henry being right there. >> absolutely. >> rose: the president -- >> i don't think president obama really got a sense of the man. joe klein, one of your many guests, said to me after the first memorial for richard that president obama probably the learned more about holbrook this afternoon. >> rose: than down in the kennedy center. >> yes, than ever been before, which is unfortunate, but richard was hillary's principal foreign policy advisor and what i don't think this administration understood at the beginning was that for richard, once the elections were over, he worked for the president, he worked for the country. >> rose: i know, but the real question is, after he tragically left us, did they begin to understand then what he meant to us? >> yes, yes, hillary has id now they uh understand. >> rose:. >> we now know what you mean? >> yes. she called me last wish to say

they get it now, they get it now, they called me last winter. better late than ever. >> rose: the mellowing part -- i never saw the mellowing. did you see the mellowing? >> surprise. >> yes,. >> rose: he never showed that to me. >> this will shock you but he was -- he was a patient man, at least with me, a very good husband, and in terms of -- he was perfectly finenot being secretary of state once mean appointmented, once the president appointed hillary, you know, he was never one to waste time with might have been. >> rose: i agree with that too, but he wanted toe secretary of state because he thought he could do something with that job and he thought he knew something and he thought he had the kind of understanding. i mean the amazing thing in telling a personaltory, in

your story, richard would call me every time there was an interesting book he read, including yours, and say, you have got to do this, you have to have himon. you have to look at this. or he would say to me, a the me of some flood somewhere, why aren't you doing something about the flood? but he had that kind of involvement in everybody, he was playing those kind of chords everywhere. >> that's why he is so missed. >> rose: again, that is why he never mellowed either. >> well, mellow, yes. >> rose: we will come back to that. let me talk about your personal story, because it is an important one and it shows, i think, what did come out after his death, i think more and more. there were so many direct connections between richard holbrook and somebody also else in an individual way. that's one point, the other point, that was always, which liked enormously about him, was this idea to try to learn, and if he could fin somebody, some week book, some person, some connection, when he was in afghanistan he would put together after ban so he could

talk to them and have them tell him what was going on at the grnd level. >> and both times in bnia, and the bosnian serbs, he literally very much so, you know, almos stopped th peace talks and milan lucic said, unfortunately 13 years later it happens again and i dreaded calling him whenever the capture of the taliban ended because i promised it wouldn't happen again and when i did call him, and thiss the mellowing argument, he was incredibly kind and didn't sort of say, you know, yet again you create this big mess for me and back to learning, though, i came back to new york and he spent hours and hours and hours saying to me, what were the taliban like? why are they fighting, what do he want? >> rose: i madehat point. i don't think u have to be mellow to do that. that is a thirst for information and knowledge and experience that he could usen his own --

do you dagree? >> i agree. i know that i have many friends on the ahpac team. >> they were nervous about his hiring andery impressed actually with how they treated him. >> a lot of th eruptions were planned too, a lot of the eruptions were staged, certainly when dealing with milan lucic he would, mill second. >>his is what is interesting that comings out of her too, what i read and what i know, be through is also the sense of being so calibrated that he would decide who would sit next to whom at which dinner. >> oh, yes. no dinner table diplomacy was very important to him when we were at the u.n. and ambassador we would pore pore ov the seatg, richard loved the unexpected tting whoopi goldberg next to george soros, i mean, he was brilliant in tha.. but i think your point, charlie, that he was so interested in people, i think

that i don't know anyone else who gives or gave of himself as much as richard gave of himself to -- and that is why, i mean, i still get letters almost every day from people he had interaction with because people really thought that they were his best friend, there are thousas of people walking the face of the planet because he loved to be helpful, how many people in public life really spend themselves on behalf of others? not in big headline making deals, he did some of those, but just helping people out. he loved doing that, that was one of his real joys. >> rose: this may be hard for you so, this is an appearance on our program on may 26th, 1998. here it is. >> this was a rather bizarre period in my life, because ten days earlier i got married in

budapest to patty martin, born in budapest that lives in new york and you have haon the program, and the day we got married, which was a sunday, was a day i am sure your viewers will remember, when 500 u.n. peace keepers had been chained, telephone pole on trees and being photographed by the world and the bosnian serbs are saying we are going to execute these people if any bombing takes place. d three hours before our wedding, knowing there was a meeting that was going to take place in the white house, at the exact moment of our wedding, i called my deputy john corn bloom, the chief of staff, and madeleine albright the u.n. ambassador on a conference call and said, look, my recommendation is you give the serbs 48 hours to free everyone unharmed, if they don't start bombing. and they thought i was kidding, i really wasn't. i believed then and how that

would have worked. and then we talked a while and they said they would relay. and i said i have to go now i am going get married. so we got married and had our honeymoon in france during the whole dreadful periodf the hostages, and it was realla low point for the west. >> rose: you lived that. >> yes. >> rose: it was the first year of your marriage was -- >> ref, every single day was shadowed by the war and i remember him barking into the phone talbert was in crge of the state department. >> rose: right. >> in madeleine's absence, start the bombing, start the bombing, which is not ectly what a bride wants to hear, but, of course, that was richard, who really felt that there were times when only force of arms works, and before diplomacy can succeed you have to -- >> rose: mill virtue mill lo

se vick. >> what did you think his plan was for afghanistan? and how much military .. he wanted to see? because he said to me more than once the problem is that diplomacy does not have the same role that military does, and that is part of our problem. >> yes. >> yes. i think that he would have thought the surge was too big, the obama surge, and he saw in vietnam that a military, can take on a life of its own, he was waiting for diplomatic effort and very patient and had a very rough first year as special representative, and he was -- we talked about this the other night he told someone, one of his younger aides that diplomacy and politics is a lot like basketball you want to kind of hang around the hoop and be there at the right time and that's what he was doing. he always kw the only way to end the cflict in afghanistan would be a regional settlement involving india and pakistan and he wa you know, waiting for that to ham, and he was told by many people it was mission impossible to quit, to give up,

but he wasn't impatient, he waited and was waiting for a bond conference which just happened and was essentially a failure, pakistan didn't even go, i am not sure he would have allowed that to happen. >> just last week and the horrifying bombing in kabul the same day. >> the day after bin laden was executed, richard would have been on a plane to pakistan, and he would have been in favor of not letting the pakastanis know about that mission, of course, but then he would have been all over pakistan working up and down the chain of command, he was ofirst-name basis with everybody in pakistan, and he would have been working that case. and trying to rebuild that trust, he -- he was not naive about pakistan, but he thought that of the two, afghanistan and pakistan, pakistan was by par the more dangerous stroo remember what he did for me? he arranged arranged for karzai and the prime minister of pakistan to be on the same show because i

went to the secretary of state and said, you know, thinking that several days after that, said, thank you, knowing richard was involved, richard called me and said i can get the two of them together, and never on television before but richard convinced them they should sit at my table in washington and we had a conversation with them and got them talking with each other. obviously it didn't do any good. but richard would have been on th plane, even if he was not on power, he would have flown to afghanistan. >> yes as he did in bosnia, he went to the bosnia whenthe republicans were in the white house. >> rose: exactly. >> and that was his involvement, that was the beginning of his involvement, he was -- he didn't seem to need a title or a job to be holbrook. >> rose: indeed. reflect more on your friendship and how long you knew him and how -- >> well, ironically, all of the authors who contributed to this volume, my relationship with

richard holbrook was the most finite, i only met him after he reviewed my work for the new yoryork times" but i learned subsequently -- >> put him on the -- >> that was the kind of thing he liked to do for people. he barely knew he just thought you were bright and -- >> rose: go ahead. >> but i learned subsequently that he had urjdz people in the administration to take my book seriously and reflect on the lessons of vietnam and i think -- >> rose: the book about bundy. >> yes, lessons in disaster and about the americanation of the war and the subject about which holbrook was a gre expertnd during the debate in the situation room, ithe autumn of 2009, richard holbrook watched as so many in the parallel elements in the debate in the white house in 1965 played out, he was very preoccupied with the parallels between vietnam and afghanista there were three in particular that were worried him. one he saw that in both vietnam

and afghanistan, we were reliant upon a corrupt partner government. two, he was very preoccupied with the existence of an indefensible border, that was a sanctuary for enemy forces, there was no way to control the border between afghanistan and pakistan and there was no way to control the ho chi minh trail. >> rose: go ahead. >> and third, he was quite uneasy with the embraced of counterinsurgency strategy and the requirements for population protection pacification and nation building, he saw based on his own hard fought experience in vtnam how extrrdinarily difficult it is to execute that strategy, he saw the requirement for a political consensus to exist for a very protracted period of time, for decades, really, to execute the strategy and he didn't see that happening here. so he was not a loud or influential voice in that debate, but he was an extraordinarily keen observer of

the debate that went thon the white house, and you saw all of the parallels to vietnam. he said that, for example, joe biden, who was aring for a doctrine of cotererrorism as opposed to a doctrine of counter insurnsurgency, he said history will remember m as one of the most insightful voices in this debate, he will be remembered as george is remembered in the escalation of the vietnam war. >> rose: let me finally close. this is an introduction here. and william from the character of the happy warrior, and is quote who is a happy warrior, who is he every man in arms should wish to be, it is the generous spirit when brought among the task of real life have brought among the plan that pleased his childish thought, hose high endeavors are inward light make the path for him always bright who with a natural instinct to discern what knowledge can is diligent, stops not there, but makes his moral

being his prime care. this book is called the unquiet american. >> thank you. >> thank you charlie. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org