>> hello, i'm llewellyn king, host of "white house chronicle," which is coming right up. but first, thought of my own. this has been -- more of a thank you. i had a large force, a mayor, nearly 18 hands and those who do not know about measuring horses, it is big. she has been one of the great loves of my life for nearly 20

years. she is quite old. great horse to ride and just to have around, fabulous personality. and she became very ill. she was choking. horses are fairly sensitive, particularly digestible elements and their lungs. they are very sensitive. they are big, strong beasts with some very sensitive aspects. i thought we were going to lose her. i took her to the animal hospital in virginia where two marvelous bets -- vets let dr. hoffman worked on her. they put cameras in her throat,, everything you could do or you would do for a sick human being was done to this horse with love and tenderness and care and no regard to their own -- even getting a sandwich breaking working on the horse, and no

assistance. and no sick human being ever got so much attention. afterward when we were thinking one of the doctors, dr. hoffman, just graduating and who is small and not likely to be working with be workinghorse, we were thinking -- working with a giant horse and we were thinking her for the tremendous effort. and she did say very sadly -- if only our own doctors would spend more than 10 minutes with us. they had spent six hours with the horse. something wrong, didn't you think? i have a fabulous program. i am going to be talking with one of the truly gifted people i know, the writer, thinker, historian, craig shirley. we will be right back, and i assure you, if he is ready tingley interesting. >> many have spoken out on the need to transition to a clean energy future. act exelon, we are acting.

by 2020 we are committed to reducing, of setting, or displeasing, more than 15 million metric tons of greenhouse gas emissions annually, from cleaning operations, helping customers and communities reduce emissions, and offering more low carbon electricity in the marketplace. at exelon, we are taking action and seeing results. >> "white house chronicle" is produced in collaboration with whut, howard university television. now, your program host, nationally syndicated columnist llewellyn king, and co-host linda gasparello. captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org-- >> hello again, and thank you some much for coming along. i told you i was going to introduce you to one of the most interesting and productive people i know, and here in is, craig shirley, the offer of two books on ronald reagan, both of

which were on the "the new york times" best seller list, and of this extraordinary volume that has just come out and which, if you are at all interesting -- interested in modern history, you should rush, you should run, you should get there and buy this book -- or get it from amazon and put it on the despised kendallk despisedindle. i despise -- i despise the kindle because i love to look through them, read them, read the bits i like. it is called "december 1941." craig, tell us what it is about. then i wanted to write a book from the perspective of the american citizenry about that oh so important month in american history. maybe the most important month in the history of the american republic because it changes everything.

there have been many fine books written about pearl harbor, franklin roosevelt, and winston churchill but never a book from the perspective of the american people. i grew up in a family, kind of that andy hardy upbringing. someday we would have dinner at my grandmother's house, my mother's house, and there would be ham and turkey and whatever, linden, lace, and all of that. around the table would be grandparents and aunts and uncles and the point of reference was the war -- before the war, during, or after. my grandfather said before the war i bought the desoto but that -- did not sell it until after the war. my family is very steep in what war ii. my father's oldest brother was shot down and killed in the pacific on his 20th birthday in 1945. both my grandmothers were rosie the raiders -- testing bombs and machine guns. scrap metal drives. my grandfather was a civil defense block captain.

my whole family was involved so i grew up hearing all the things. so i had in the back of my mind about doing a book from the perspective of the american citizenry and what they saw and went through in those 31 days, the first through the 31st of december 1941. it changes everything. >> in some ways, it is a book about roosevelt, isn't it? >> yes. >> what did you think of roosevelt? >> i came to the conclusion that he was a singularly marvelous wartime president. an interesting present -- question, too. because franklin roosevelt and what were ii, the world did not think of the american president as the most important person in the world. there were british monarchs, popes, and other leaders who may be thought for a small time. but in his time, nobody thought that george washington with the most and portents in the world, or abraham lincoln. but starting with president

roosevelt and continuing with electing president obama, we viewed the american president as the most of or in the world and it starts with roosevelt because he similarly, churchill, shanghai scheck, and others, leads the allies against the evil of axis power -- chaing kai shek. i have questions about the new deal and its successes, but no doubt only franklin roosevelt could have led the allies against the axis powers. >> there is a conservative -- conservative revisit -- revisionism going on, try to rewrite particularly the new deal, even into the second world war. you'll look is a flattering look at roosevelt. you did not subscribe to that. >> no, i don't. that i think, but i think a lot of people think that america was in a horribly terrible position

after the stock market crash of 1929 and the three years of herbert hoover floundering around. we needed to do something. roosevelt came in, and there are people who say at least destabilize the economy and stop the slide down. unemployment stayed high all those years. the economy really did not start to come back until the advent of lend-lease in 1941 because we were actually producing things to give to the allies or to lease to the allies. but i don't subscribe to that idea -- interestingly enough, i have written two books about ronald reagan. frank and lows but was always ronald reagan's favorite president and inspiration. his father got a new deal job -- even when he was president -- one ronald reagan was president there was an exhibit of roosevelt's correspondents at

the smithsonian and he went with misses bang right in to look at them and some reporters were badgering him -- he went with mr.s regan and it will badgering him about eliminating the new deal, and he wrote in his diaries it was never his goal to eliminate the new deal but to limit the great society. >> you mentioned particularly in the 1930's and 1920's that there was a lack of national confidence, there was no single national purpose, and you say in the book that it had all been held together with compromise, which is an interesting, these days, a loaded word, and it was after pearl harbor, it was compelling -- i think the word you used was compelled. how do you read that in today's world? >> the differences are clear. the country was more homogeneous

than. and so, to become a unified -- >> we say that, but is it true? the north was quite different from the south. >> factionalism -- in one regard. but in another regard it was more homogeneous. there was not the "diversity" we have in our culture. everybody spoke one language in 1941 or in the 1930's. everybody wants the same movies and read the same books and newspapers. so, there was a commonality to the culture event that does not exist today. i think is similar situation is that what president bush knew before 9/11 versus what franklin roosevelt knew before december 7. in both men's defense, there were pieces of the puzzle scattered around the american government, but even taking the pieces and putting them together, it would not have

produced a picture saying this is what will happen on september 11 or december 7. >> the first chapter of this book is an amazing photograph of this country at that time. particularly probably from life magazine and the then extremely liberal "look magazine -- "look" magazine. but other things in this photograph are not dissimilar from today. the big difference to me is not so much of a cultural shift as the technology shift. you talk about how as part of the war effort, women were encouraged to wear cotton stockings instead of silk stockings because, of course, nylon has not yet arrived, and silk stockings -- if i could tear up the metaphor.

they were not in all cotton. but these were mostly things that were changed by technology. the cultural things were the same -- you had a right wing, you had a very intense left wing, as the apologists for stalling, the communist party, they all pull together. he also say that the gi -- you also say the gi bill was a kind piece of legislation. do you think it would get passed today? >> well, it is still in existence. i think it would. i think actually there would be less opposition today to lead than when it was passed in 1947 or 1948. >> shouts of big government? >> actually, that opposition was interesting. the greatest opposition came from the colleges and universities, from the ivy league -- they did not want these bohemians trampling on

their prized harvard lawns. the ivy league lobbied very heavily against the gi bill in 1948. do you quote -- i think it is in the epilogue when you were trying to explain how we were taken not quite by surprise but nonetheless -- the after not sending it was a failure of imagination. -- the astronauts saying it was a failure of imagination. too much confidence in the technology in the time? >> to much confidence in two oceans. after world war i, we rejected the league of nations and we became an increasingly isolationist country. there was a saying going around in the country after world war i that all we got is debt and -- all through but 20's and 30's with the smoot-hawley and the neutrality acts that prohibited

u.s. troops from leaving north america, we would become increasingly inward looking and really wanted no part of an aid european war ever again after what -- the whole idea of world war i was the war to end all wars. it was to make the world safe for democracy. which obviously, it did not. americans had a bad taste in their mouth in those 20 years between 1919 and 1941. which gave rise to the america- first movement. there is a myth in popular culture that the america first movement was a right wing operation. it is not true. both presidential nominees from 1928, al smith and herbert hoover, were both prominent members of the america first movement in 1941, as was loan thomas, a prominent liberal writer -- lowell thomas --

>> he wrote lawrence of arabia. >> charles lindbergh is identified as the leader and he was the spiritual leader or the face of the movement, but there were many people -- what disney. -- walt disney. it was very bipartisan and if you look deeply into roosevelt's democratic party in 1941, tom connelly from texas and wheeler from montana, both prominent democratic senators, both prominent in the movement. >> would like to break for station identification. to speak to our listeners on siriusxm radio who did not see the pictures, i would like to tell you i am llewellyn king, a host of "white house chronicle" topic -- coming from washington, d.c., and i am talking to the fabulous craig shirley. he is a researcher unique with conclusions quite astounding and

unpredictable and i happen to think very correct. asians of the voice of america as well as -- this can also be heard around the world on voice of america, english. talking about the book "december 1941," the history of one extraordinary month in the history of europe and the history of america. america came into the second world war because of pearl harbor. it accelerated the entry -- we can discuss what happened -- but it certainly gave hope to britain standing alone, and of course, a book about roosevelt, because he was the dominant figure, but there was another player, churchill. >> absolutely. >> when you have finished your research on churchill -- phenomenal. the notes in the back alone are just absolutely overwhelming.

i don't know how you organize them all. then the bibliography -- i wish there were an index. >> we had a discussion but the publisher about that, but that is another story -- about publishers. >> i know about publishers. intermittently. i also like the way you write. a very clear and simple and declarative. in researching this, these extraordinary man, did you change your view of churchill? >> even higher than before. a similarly extraordinary man. >> if you read your book, where you quote his speeches, extraordinary -- only maybe martin luther king came close to him as an orator. >> he was marvelous. and it confirms something that i thought -- you and i had this conversation about churchill -- this speech to congress, he

comes to washington, as you know, 1941, a surprise visit and a huge media event. in many ways churchill was more popular in the united states than in great britain. maybe at that time he was more popular in britain because he was leading the british against the axis powers. but he gives this speech -- >> he had no history in the u.s. there had not been the general strike. he had not played a role in the irish settlement. all these things that made churchill popular with some an unpopular with others. his desire to intervene on this side of the white russians. these things. >> they did not precede him. but we heard his speeches and read news accounts. but he gives his speech before congress in which he talks about gettysburg, and he says he has always subscribed to the theory

of government for the people, by the people, and of the people. just the way linkedin -- he did not mention lincoln by name but quotes directly from the gettysburg address. and he thought power sprung from the house of commons and not from the marquee. a very american populist speech. not a british speech at all. very much geared toward the american notion of government, power flowing from the bottom up than the top down. similarly remarkable speech and i do not think it gets enough attention. >> there is a book about american men with names and american women without names. rosie the riviter. worthies exceptional men -- where these exceptional men

outside of churchill or just as good and bad as people in authority today? >> carlyle postulated the great -- of history which was later discarded, the story of john carlisle, the scottish writer. >> the fourth estate -- we believe. there is some argument. >> i happen to subscribe to and the theory. modern historians say we are all victims of time and all of these things, and the people are victims of state and not masters of their fate. i disagree. i think men and women can and do make the times. i think only winston churchill and franklin roosevelt could have led the allies against the axis powers. i think only george washington could have led the american resolution and presided over the continental congress and become the first president. i think only abraham lincoln could have led the north in the

civil war and then patched the country back together. i think only ronald reagan could have led the west against soviet communism and defeat it. i think these men define their times because they want it to define the the times. they were singularly inner- directed men who had greatness in their soul or believe they had it. >> going back -- i happen to agree. we tend to only count the great villains in history and we assume them to be larger than the people around them -- hitler, napoleon, stalin. george ii perhaps. -- georgeiii perhaps. why did i bring up? >> a good counterbalance to george washington. for great evil you need great good. >> do you think we need msnbc and fox? is it competition? the polarity.

it creates an incipient historical problem in that we sort of expect our next enemy to be china. this is part of the duality that seems to be so much part of history. do we need the duality? competition in the construction -- constructive sense. >> thomas edison said if you want to be successful, get a few enemies. competition and threats bring out -- for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. so, if you are going to have the great evil of and of hitler you need the great goodness of the west and churchill and chang kai shek and roosevelt to respond. >> this is highly readable but also a work of scholarship and you clearly are a scholar. i know people do not like to be described as intellectuals.

they tend to think it in pews of their manhood. -- impugns their manhood. they were not thinking of the navi poets. nothing wrong with their manhood. how you were? not that long since the last major book which was the reagan book. but this required, it seemed to me, even more work. two countries. that is why the bibliography is enormous. notes are enormous. i am just compelled by it because it is so -- i am living back in one month of 1941 when i am reading it. i am walking around living in the month. on my commuter train this morning i was thinking, that would have been different in those days. the train would not have been different -- probably a steam engine -- but other things

different. they all have electronic devices. the largest visual difference. and when you mention, the diversity. chinese vases, african faces, eastern european faces. how did you start to do a book like this? >> i learned from the reagan book how to more perfect what i was going after. i had a good team of researchers, led by my son andrew. >> i rather liked the way your family figures in your activities, including writing about your uncle who was killed at the end of the second world war. >> off three books -- my wife zorine did proofreading and andrew did research and my sons have done fact checking. they have always been a family efforts. but it is about passion,

organization. not that i would always quote gloria steinem but she says right thing is the only thing i do when i'm doing it i did not feel should be doing something else. i understand that sentiment. when i am writing and researching, i do not feel guilty that i should be mowing the lawn or been cleaning the garage. when i am cleaning the garage, i feel like i should be writing. been interesting. i am not a right turn in your class -- >> interesting. i am not a writer in your class, but i write for a living. >> a marvelous writer. >> you are very kind. i tend to do it quickly. get this thing done. then i am glad i did it. how do you work? >> when you do a book, you have to have a sense of completion. >> two hours a day? >> typically in the morning i

would do research. spend it o'clock00 a.m. until 12:00 -- spending at 8:00 a.m. until 12:00, and then my best writing was from noon until about 6:00 p.m. then typically i would print out the drafts and then zorine and i would review them and make edits -- >> your wife? >> yes. take the edits and put it in the manuscript and start the process. >> my wife is linda gasparello and she does the same thing for me. it can be quite tense. >> so, i think it is about passion, organization. you have to have a natural sense of curiosity. i have friends who have written books who said when they got toward the end, they hated it and he did the process and i never understood that sentiment. it has always been a labor of love and what i have to turn

over the final manuscript, they have to tear it out of my hands because i don't want to let it go. >> in the last 30 seconds, your book. the great cliché -- but it is very nice. a great tradition. and you will not be able to do it on the electronic tablets. >> you can't do it, can't you? >> we have been talking to craig shirley, one of the most gifted writers who has just produced a stunning, extraordinary, marvelous book, "december 1941." i recommend it without reservation.

>> many have spoken out on the need to transition to a clean energy future. at exelon, we are acting. by 2020 we are committed to reducing, offsetting, or displacing up to 15 million metric tons of greenhouse gas emissions annually from cleaning our operations, helping customers and communities reduce emissions, and offering more no carbon electricity in the marketplace. at exelon we are taking action and seeing results. >> "white house chronicle" is produced in collaboration with whut, howard university television. from washington, d.c., this has been "white house chronicle," a weekly analysis of the news with insignt and a sense of humor featuring llewellyn king, linda gasparello, and guests. this program can be seen on pbs stations and cable access channels.

to view the program online, visit us at whchronicle.com.