tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. tonight, a conversation with former wisconsin senator russ feingold, the man who many profess as their the and the founder of a new group. he is also out with a new book about the mistakes america has made in the past 10 years since 9/11 and the lessons we can learn going forward. the book is called "while america sleeps." we are glad you joined us. our conversation with russ feingold, coming up. >> every community has a martin luther king boulevard. it's the cornerstone we all know. it's not just a street or boulevard, but a place where walmart stands together with your community to make every day better. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.

tavis: wes feingold served in the u.s. senate for 18 years from the great state of wisconsin. -- wes feingold. -- russ feingold. he is out now with a timely new book called "while america sleeps: a wake-up call for the post-9/11 era." senator, an honor to have you on this program. >> you were in wisconsin at the end of the election. we kind of froze ourselves there for the farm aid. tavis: we had a good time. is it to have you in l.a. the, we're it is a little bit warmer.

let me go back to the text, where you say "while america sleeps." what are we missing? >> thank you. it is my sense that after 9/11, we think how did this happen to us. i think we have pulled back and stopped looking at the signals. al qaeda is not done. we got osama bin laden, but look at what is happening in yemen right now. there is still a lot of activity. you go over this straight, and you have got al schwab -- as shabab. and then there is a group of nigerians that are doing similar things. you go down to nigeria, and there is a group that looks to be using similar tactics to al qaeda. maybe they are affiliated. maybe they are not. but they are pulling off

explosions and hitting western targets, and i am thinking, how are we doing this again? we are not picking up on the signals. we talk about even going into iran, but we are not done with the specific task we had on 9/11. we are thinking about what is going on here, the rough economy, but we have to walk and chew gum at the same time, and i think we have got to sleep on international issues. >> -- tavis: john mccain. your former colleague. john mccain has now called for u.s. air strikes on syria. your thoughts about that? >> one of the things i talk about in "while america sleeps" is our tendency to invade a country rather than having a calibrated approach, so we go into afghanistan, and we know

bin laden is not there anymore, and we stay there forever. i call it the in for a penny, in for a pound, where you do the whole thing. president obama did it right in libya. he did not do the ground troops. because these same principles can be applied to syria. as i do not think this is a bad idea. as invading syria or internationally or the united states. i do not think that is the right answer. i would say it is on the table. what he is doing there is criminal. even the arab league is dying to get him out of there. there needs to be an more calibrated approach, where we do not put troops there and stay

there forever. that is the best way to go. >> president obama met with netanyahu at the white house. much is still being discussed. tavis: where israel is concerned. they are going to talk about foreign policy. president obama is doing a good job. saying iran, iran, iran. saying they are not willing to go to war. but the president said. all options are on the table. ok, what does that mean? it means the military options are there. it is not necessary in all scenarios.

if israel determines the only to survive is to make a move, i would understand. it is not just about nuclear power. iran has relationships with other countries. they need to make sure they do not get a nuclear weapon. we need to increase the pressure, increase the sanctions, and every expert i am says the sanctions are getting ready to work. it is not like the iraq of saddam hussein. it is not just the ayatollah or president ahmadinejad. there are different ways to influence iran other than the idea of an invasion.

tavis: i do not know the we expect anything different. the a obama and putin have not always gotten along so well. >> well, i think you have to take a realistic view of putin and russia, and this is another theme in my book, how do we maintain attention in different places at the same time? we have a tendency to say that it is either al qaeda or iran or russia. russia is a very important country. there is a tendency on the part of americans to save the war is over, the soviet union is gone, we do not have to worry about these guys. we always have to be worried and concerned about them and beat well and forms. putin is a complicated guy. but we have no choice but but to urge russia to move forward towards a democracy rather than

in a more authoritarian nationalist country that is a threat, so we need to engage russia as individuals. i do not think enough americans are going over there to engage them publicly, and we need to make sure we give russia the respect we consider an important country. that is very important. they do matter. we need to understand that vladimir putin is a key figure in this world. tavis: you have been critical of president obama at times. you also support him and won him reelected. but a moment ago, you have said that republicans have not really engaged him on foreign policy because he has some foreign- policy successes. let me play devil's advocate. maybe they have not been saying anything to him because he has not done anything they necessarily disagree with. he has dropped more bombs. domestic policy, where they

disagree, whereas on foreign policy, and you know this, he has continued the bush legacy. >> that is half of the story. they are glad they got osama bin laden, glad that gaddafi is gone. the truth is, he has got a terrific record of going after these folks. of course, they do not even have problems with the tactics, whether it be the drones or others. that is the right side of that. but there is the left side. he has been reaching out to the world, which george bush did not do, going to cairo and making that speech, going to india, one of the most important countries in the world, not only with our relationship with india but because of the significant, muslim. the largest islamic country in the world, and what he has done is create a very positive face of america in europe and

especially in as places where we did not have that much of a representation. they want to pretend that we are in a bunker mentality. president obama, and a critical part of his presidency, and what i think will make him a great president by the end of the second term, is that he is going to change our reputation in the world in a huge way, because people believe that he believes that the whole world matters, so in many ways, his view tracks what i say in my book, "while america sleeps." republicans are embarrassed. they are in a tough position. they do not want to talk about it. >> -- tavis: we cannot sleep because we are so focused on the domestic race. you are right.

we have got to walk and chew gum at the same time. not needed. to swallow it. i take your point. but tell me what you believe that the president, if you believe this, that the president will get any credit for these foreign-policy successes? you cannot congratulate him begins you cannot pass the guy on the back. he was a successful if you call them successful, by that standard successful. so how do they run against him on foreign policy? does he get any credit for his foreign-policy successes? >> at some point, they do not live very credible if they just ignore it because he has done a good job, and as you said, they will not attack him on the left. one of the comparisons i made in the book is we used to have an attitude that when we came to foreign policy, we kind of put this to the side, so when john kennedy went to berlin it and said what he did, both sides

thought that was a good thing. when richard nixon went to china, it was a historic thing, and i think it was an election year. ronald reagan, whom i certainly was not a fan of, he said, tipping mr. gorbachev, take down this wall -- he said, "mr. gorbachev, take down this wall." they say a president does not have much to do with international policy, and they can do better, but i think they have to come up with a narrative that says the president has been strong with international policy but then finds ways about doing it better. just ignoring it or carping on it makes them look weak and not ready to be president. tavis: is it possible to talk to russ feingold and not talk about mccain-feingold?

now, we have seen mr. obama to 180 degrees. the republicans are clearly all in. i know you have been disappointed by this and have said so publicly. tell me more about the long-term damage that needs to be done by the super pacs? >> john mccain and i worked on mccain-feingold for so many years that a lot of people in wisconsin bought my first name was mccain. maybe that is true. it is interesting, tavis, that you said something that a lot of people believe, that mccain- feingold is gone. here is the thing. mccain-feingold is the only thing that is left. tavis: it is not gone. but it was to gut it? >> to gut the entire system. you build a foundation, put bricks on it, and then you put mccain-feingold on top of it, and then somebody comes and destroys all of the bricks under

it, and that is all you have left is that one. we passed a law that said you cannot give unlimited campaign contributions to the political parties. it used to be called soft money, and members of congress were raising that money. we turned that into a federal crime. if anybody knows anyone doing that, that bunker that duke cunningham was in is ready. there was the system that was a place for many, many years. in fact, we had a system in 2006 and 2008 that was much better because mccain-feingold was in place. there were not these contributions, and they could not do it directly from their own treasuries yet, some people went to a special internet contribution, smog checks from college students or older people who could not even getut of their house, and as i think i heard somebody say a few minutes ago, people knocked on doors.

people volunteered. it was about more than just money. my theory is that the right was so concerned, and corporations were so concerned about the way president obama raised the money and won the election that they basically saw the face of democracy, and they were terrified, so they engineered citizens united, which, what did it do? it did not overturn mccain- feingold. it overturned the act that teddy roosevelt signed that said they could not use the treasury's four campaigns. this is now used for the first time in your lifetime or mine lifetime to support candidates in so-called independent advertisements. this note -- same thing with unions. they overturned one area. they basically open this huge spigot under the ridiculous notion that this is really independent expenditures, and we all know that the people who run

these super pacs are former political aides to the people who are running, so it is a joke. your bottom-line point is completely accurate. it has gutted the system. what do we have to do to change it? we have got to redo the system, we elect obama, get some appointments for the supreme court during his term, and all we need is one of the people voted yes to not be on the court and have someone vote with an open mind. anyone with an open mind will vote to overturn that. tavis: there was someone i talked to is on the right, and you are on the left, but there are some that believe that the only thing we need to do to change this, i just want to be convinced that a guy who has done 180 degrees on this, hypocritical frankly on this issue, will get serious about it once he gets reelected, and i

do not know that i believe that. i want to believe that, but know why i should put >> that is very fair. the only thing to overturn citizens united. but it is not sufficient. and i do worry tremendously that anyone who uses the system to get elected usually does not want to change it right away. i am a co-chair of the obama campaign. the economy and warned me and said they are not going to do this and that i would not like it. i said it was a dumb thing to do because it undercuts the enthusiasm of the candidate, and you will have a lot of pressure from people who want to keep the system. i think barack obama will do something different. i think this keeps him up at night. he is a good man. he is an honest guy. he has been convinced wrongly by a bunch of political aides that he needs to do this. i think that is wrong. but i think it kills him that the system is in place.

he and i worked on campaigns of all of the time when he was in the senate. he is sincere. he needs to come out and talk about fixing the financial funding system that exists for campaigns, obviously advocate the overturning of citizens united. we need to get rid of the federal -- federal elections commission. it is a joke. it does not support the law. i hope he makes it one of his top items. tavis: this argument wears me out that the president was convinced by his aides. he was a brilliant guy, but now he is not brilliant enough to be talked out of a dumb decision by aides who do not -- who suggested. i do not buy that, respectfully. house statesmanlike. you said earlier in this conversation that by the end of his second term, he will be a great president. i want to believe that and not just another garden variety politician, but have

statesmanlike would he have been if he said, "i am not playing this game"? the americans who are so sick of the politics would have rallied to his defense and said, "the president is right about this. we have to get this money out of politics." the guy raised and three- quarters of a billion dollars. how much money do you need? you are leading mitt romney and rick santorum and newt gingrich by double digits in most of these states begin i am just trying to find out about a decision to be statesmanlike, and you talk about the legacy. putting some more tea and mccain-feingold, starting to get money out of our politics. why not? >> i think he still could do that in this campaign. he only made this announcement one month ago. they can pull back from the brink. everybody knows who he is. he is going to win because he is

barack obama, not because of the money. you and i are agreeing so much is a problem. he should do that. it would be a wonderful thing, and then he would have momentum when he comes in next january, like you and i have talked about. to propose these things when you have gone the way, it does look hypocritical. i urge the president to reverse this. it has not gone too far. the american people are on to it. they know that citizens united is a fraud, and this president can start it sooner rather than later. tavis: stephen colbert. everybody understands what a joke this super pac stuff is. >> they called me, and they are not very interested in me, i said, look, i have been all over the country trying to explain this. even though i am funnier than stephen colbert, he is doing a

pretty good job of explaining it. this is a genius. what a boring, arcane subject, and somehow, he brings it to light, and it is a real public service. i think that is why people are talking about it. how often are people talking about a supreme court decision? people are so aware of this that the supreme court is getting nervous, and there are people in the white house that when they hear what you just said, they have got a chance to walk away from this. it is not too late. tavis: i am not sure they listen to me in the obama white house. they should, but -- as we are talking about this, michael moore and i were together for a symposium were together, and he said right into the camera, "mr. president, you are going to win it." these guys shoot straight. joe scarborough said it last night. forget me. he is a republican.

he said he does not see any way at all, even given their hatred, they cannot see how mitt romney is going to rally conservative base, so how conservatives is this race going to be? >> things change so fast. i think obama will win, but i do not think it is a slam dunk. tavis: do you think it is a close race? >> while i was writing this book, "while america sleeps," lashed your, things look really bad for the president last year. things change really fast breeder it can change again, if there is a downturn in the economy. and people have short memories. they are going to forget about all of the dumb stuff mitt romney said. tavis: unless he keeps saying dumb stuff. >> i think this could get close, and here is the point that you and i agree on. the worst thing the president can do is undercut his credibility by not looking like

a man of the people, which he truly is compared to romney. it makes the other 99% think they are not part of the process, so all of the people were excited about a bomb in 2008, it is depressing. "do i bother? it is not about me anymore." it is a terrible thing to do, but it is also important to win the election do not touch this money. tavis: i have got two months. the whole nation is watching wisconsin. tell me what is going to happen with the scott walker situation and about labornion across the country. you tell me. >> we are going to finish the job. governor walker was sworn in and without notification, he attacked the people. we are the first to have collective bargaining for public employees. we have hundreds of thousands of people protesting at the state capital, but they did not leave it at that. they have recalled some of the

state senators, and there is a recall election for governor walker, which should happen in june. if it happens, we are going to win. we will have a new governor, and it will be the third successful recall, and we will not end up with governor schwarzenegger. we will end up with someone better, an excellent governor who is going to make history. tavis: most people in the wisconsin paul wanted it to be you. people beg you to run for that seat. why not you? >> i have been there for over 28 years. i think it is healthy for me and the constituents to take a break, and maybe i will want to do it again, but i am having a chance to write about things that are important to me. i believe it is not one person. when a movement like that comes forward, it is about a state saying, "wait a minute. let's stop this. >> i will be one trying to get as a new governor.

i will just not be a candidate. tavis: such an earnest guy. his new book is called "while america sleeps: a wake-up call for the post-9/11 era," senator feingold, nice to have you on the program. that is our show for tonight. we will see you next time. until the next time, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: if you are in the tristate area, please join me at the nyu center for performing arts or a conversation about women, and sugar, and poverty i america. -- women, children, and poverty. we have a financial expert and others. for more information, visit our website at pbs.org.

tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with dr. otis brawley. that is next time. we will see you then. >> every community has a martin luther king boulevard. it's the cornerstone we all know. it's not just a street or boulevard, but a place where walmart stands together with your community to make every day better. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more. >> be more.