>> rose: welcome to our program. tonight, an appreciation of mike wallace. joining me, morley safer, steve kroft and jeff fager. >> there was something about him. he understood what people wanted. he knew how to perform in front of the camera. he knew the value of dramatic pauses. he was just a star. he was just never been one like him i think in television. >> it wasn't sugar coated ever. he was telling you right from the heart what he thought. and that's a feeling. i think it's part of what made him such an infect shuttle character. his -- infectious character or if he insulted you which he did try to do often. it was hard. he was a really loveable guy. >> i think really what mike's

expertise was and his passion was, to find stories in which things are not the way you assume they are. this person is not precisely who you think he is. and i'm here to tell you what he's really like. >> rose: mike wallace, an appreciation for the hour, next.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. with good research you could embarras anybody, make any squirm. you could do it to me. but if you are really after illumination of an interview-ease character,

qualities, substance, texture. if you're really after that, you can ask very pointed questions. sensible questions to get them to talk. you can establish what you do so well, a chemistry of confidentiality. that was what comes across the table. which you dirty dog, you have done on a couple of occasions over the past and you got me saying things i have no intention of saying. why? because you're too people who know a little bit about the same subject. if the interveeee has respect for the interviewer is well prepared, you can ask anything and you'll find that the

interviewee is co-contributor. >> rose: it's been pouring in for mike wallace. he was a giant in american journalism. he died at 93 on saturday. he was ill for a few years. mike wallace was one of the most skilled interviewers of any time. he was probing and fearless and relentless. >> i was doing what with you? why? why? why? >> when you brought it down to low grade you demanded special treatment. you needed money. it's almost an embarrassment sir to hear this from you. >> what. >> why are you so reluckant. >> rose: forgive me he would say before going straight at it. >> and he calls youman, forgive me, why, a lunatic. i know you have heard that comment. >> rose: wallace was known for his iconic interviews, yasser arafat, salvador dally, nancy reagan, lyndon johnson, mike wallace talked to them all. >> a good many people hated your

husband. and even hated you. >> yes. great many do still. >> why hasn't this job weighed as heavily on you as it has on some other occup occupants of ts oval office. >> my god, i don't know what the answer of that would be. well maybe none of them had an answer. >> dead man wanting, discredited and isolated. few more than israeli or arab leaders believe any more that he would ever lead his people into a peace deal with israel. everyone is just waiting for mr. arafat to pass away. >> i was connected to the sniper for my people. >> you want to control this. >> absolutely. arare you kidding. >> rose: myron wallace, he was the son of russian jewish immigrants. he attended the university of michigan and served in the navy during world war ii. he then went into radio and eventually television. he did game shows, commercials

and acting before focusing fully on reporting and news. he found his voice on night beat in 1956 and later with a mike wallace interview. >> what do you know about that. who in the united states is qualified. what kind of people are you. >> rose: the questions only got tougher after he joined 60 minutes in 1968, the late dawn dawn -- don hewitt said if they were allowed to put plaques up for the three journalists that would stand out, there would be he had you are ammera mike wallace and walter cronkite. we have words from his colleagues who knew him best. mike wallace was on this program nine days in the last difficulty aid. this is a july 2002 appearance. >> i called up jeff fager and said tell me what do i need to know about wallace. how is it among his contemporaries he looks half their age. what is it? is it genetics?

>> my mother died at the age of 86 and my father at the age of 73. no. mrs. wallace, the current and future mrs. wallace is annoyed from this from time to time when i say it. i was married for 28 years. you knew lorraine, she fed me nuts, raisins and fish. and we lived in a town house five stories up and down, which i would do 20 times a day. i square -- >> rose: that makes a difference. >> oh sure, sure. >> rose: you ate well and you exercised in the prime of your life. >> that's correct. >> rose: and the hair. >> what about the hair? >> rose: a little bit of gray showing. >> you know something, people say oh come on, johnny carson made a big to do about it. >> rose: i know. >> and annoyed me and as soon as i let him know that it annoyed me, he kept going even harder. i have nothing, repeat nothing has ever touched. i just have dark hair. >> rose: of all the things you have done in terms of your

interests, in terms of turning you on as a reporter, where do you put the middle east? >> i, i, being jewish, growing up in a zionist household i was fascinated by the middle east, particularly israel but i didn't know anything about the middle east growing off, obviously. one night, i guess it was 1957, i interviewed a man by the name of fayes. palestinian, lebanese. i am still not sure whether he was christian or muslim. but he educated me about the middle east. and the scales really did fall from my eyes about it. i feel for palestinians. they have had a lousy life.

they have been, when i say a lousy life, some of them are so smart. they're the jews of the middle east in a strange way, i know that sounds foolish. they worked hard, they have been betrayed by their arab friends. they have been the egyptians got rid of them. the syrians got rid of them, the length knees got rilength knees. i can understand why a young palestinian growing up in refugee camps can say to themselves oh my lord, what is my life. >> rose: today in the middle east how do you see it. >> you have palestinians saying if they weren't occupying our land, there wouldn't be any violence. and you have the israelis saying, if you weren't committing these suicide attacks against civilians, we wouldn't

be occupying your land. >> rose: mr. wallace says. >> mr. wallace says he doesn't really know. the real terrorists of the middle east, the ones that did the most damage was the young jew who shot rabin. rabin had the bone fide to lead and continue to lead and she had the friend, sharron perez, let's make a deal. i have been decembe desperately disillusioned by arafat. i believed him to be an honorable man searching for something. but ... >> rose: today? >> he was in charge. he was in effect the dictator to a certain degree that remains in that part of the world in gaza. >> rose: he knew what was going on. >> he knew perfectly well.

>> rose: in fact some of his people were rung i running it in clusiocollusion with others or n conspiracy with others. >> yes. he had the mal stink authority, radio stations, television stations. he would say well i didn't know. the things that were said in the schools, in the school books, on radio, on television to the palestinians, if he really wanted to bring these two groups together, there was something that he could have done. and he didn't stop any of this from going on. >> rose: roll tape, mike wallace, yasser arafat president of the palestinian authority. here it is. >> do you know tom friedman. >> yes. >> he's covered the middle east for a long time. and he wrote a recent column about you, mr. president, that called you, quote, a dead man walking. that was the headline in the "new york times." a dead man walking, discredited

and isolated, few american israeli or arab leaders believe anymore that he will ever lead his people into a most dea peacl with israel. everyone is just waiting for mr. arafat to mas pass away. >> let's forget that -- for my peoples in a dramatic way, very international -- that i am the man who made the peace of the brave. >> back in a oslo. >> back in oslo. >> and finally. >> -- close friend, yes, he said recently at this moment, air fat is the christ -- arafat is the christ of the palestinian people. christ died for his people, correct? you've said fairly recently that you want to be a martyr for the

jerusalem people. >> yes. i hope that i will die in jerusalem. i have lived there when i was a boy. so i would like and i hope that i will have the opportunity to die this. >> what are the chances. >> i believe peace is coming. sooner or later. no other choice for the stability in this area. i hope so. >> i asked, i said to arafat with all of his people sitting around there, you know of course four out of five palestinians believe that you and the people who are sitting in this room are corrupt. there's a lot of money here. there's a lot of real estate, a

lot of cars. in the meantime the unemployment rate in gaza is about 40%, on the west bank 35%. people live and forget about it, the refugee camps. they are doing quite well and you have been living quite well and you know the story. and some say that you would like the fact that you don't have a state because it gives you a certain place you don't have to be running a government, you don't have to be involved in worrying about budgets. what you're doing is being a revolutionary, and that somehow has a heroic attraction to you rather than making a deal. well he once said to me because i interviewed arafat, i don't know, half a dozen times over the years. my life means nothing to me, etcetera, etcetera. why did he not take up the campaign or a camera. i don't, i really don't

understand. >> rose: tell me about malcolm and you and this relationship. was it just a reporter admiring a political figure or does it say signing back the quality that you like. >> i realize that this was a superior intellect and a superior curiosity, if you will. a superior morality, that's all i know about, knew about the man. and little by little -- >> rose: and a gifted man. >> oh, such a gifted man. and despite the fact talking about by any means necessary which had the spread of violence behind it. you tell me, the single time that he actually called for violence in the black community against the white community. in any case, time went on and little by little, he became disillusioned, he, malcolm, with

elijah mohamed. why? because mohammed was impregnanting sisters from the plaqublack muslims. four or five or six or seven of them. and by this time, he and i had developed a reporter source relationship that he wanted to tell the story. he came in and told the story about, i said malcolm, aren't you concerned that you're putting yourself in danger by talking this way about the honorable allay ja allay elijahs in jail as a drug dealer and so forth and he gave you something. he gave you something. he turned, helped to turn your life around and now you're turning against him. look, i'm probably a dead man

already. this is in 64. six months later, evans dead. >> rose: roll tape, come back to you. >> roll tape. i had no idea on prophetic malcolm was in 1964 just months before he was killed but it gave one of the reasons why he had broken with the black muslim and with elijah mohamed in particular. they all had children. two of those six had two children. one of those two is having a child right now. i am told that there is a seventh sister who is supposed to be in mexico right now and she's supposedly having a child. >> do you feel perhaps you should now take over the leadership of the black muslims. >> no. i have no desire to take over the leadership of the black muslims and i have never had that desire. but i do have this desire. i have a desire to see the afro americans in this contwrea get - country get the human rights that is their do yo due as a coe human being. >> do you know what will happen

to you as a result of these revelations. >> oh yes, i'm probably a dead man already. >> rose: you saw malcolm after that interview. >> or shortly thereafter. did you set up and get farrakan to try to meet with -- and have a meeting at your encouragement. >> yes. >> rose: saying what's going on here. this enmity between african americans and jews is terrible. >> yes. >> rose: and we ought to bridge this gap. >> this is fascinating. i, i sat down finally. farrakan wouldn't talk to me. he knew i was a friend of malcolm's and he has been implicated in what happened to malcolm. so he didn't you want to meet me or talk to me. finally agreed to silt dow sit d

did an interview at the islam complex in arizona that had been purchased by mohamed. he said i would like to meet some people in the business community in the jewish business community because i think i am misunderstood by them. >> rose: farrakan said this. >> farrakan said this to me. so if somehow, i said i will be happy to try to introduce you to some interesting, etcetera, etcetera, jewish leaders. i tried and tried. the adl said forget it mike, we've heard this before. forget it. >> finally i called -- >> rose: he's a pre thinker. >> yes. and i liked that. he said i would love to meet with him. and so those louis farrakan and his wife and rock newman. >> rose: the promoter. >> were invited to dinner at

their home on fifth avenue and mary and i went. oh yes, leonard mohamed, who was the son-in-law, and mrs. rosalyn. and the conversation was fascinating. before dinner we sat around and talked. and farrakan said, you know something, i am misunderstood. and i think that perhaps if you and i talked in certain candid way and if you were, if i didn't feel, i would like to do something together. and hwas fascinated by it and so was his wife. and so everybody sat and talked and finally he said do you know something, there's a possibility perhaps that we could get together and i could help finance the hotel in

washington -- i never told this story. a hotel in washington which would be one in effect by black people. and we could, if we could get some kind of a mutual business operation going, and said and i have the man, i could give you the man that moaned ca moaned mo and work things how the. we were all shaking hands and were on our way. farrakan goes the next night to brooklyn and the rhetoric is as can be, the statement rhetoric that he said he was through w he went back on everything he had said in front of edward bronson and his wife. mrs. bronson called me the next morning and said what in the world is this all about. so the whole thing fell fell

apart. roll tape and take a look at this. >> ladies and gentlemen, let us let professor ludwig -- do you know what i mean. don't bother with the -- i'm not judging, the -- >> yes, professor joark. >> don't give -- >> professor in 1923 -- >> oh. >> is that a picture of you professor. >> it looks a lot like me, i'll say that. >> and you are with a chorus girl. you are supposed to have sold over $450,000 worth of stock. they weren't picking a fight. if you hadn't said what you did

with the gold mine. >> and you keep -- >> in 1935 in contact with all. >> rose: ha ha. >> you know how that happened. >> rose: no. >.you wonder why they call you mike malice. >> back in the 50's, show of shows, big important, i guess it was 8:00 on saturday night at the time. cid cesar was there at the time and i was moving from channel 5 over to abc. and we wanted certain things in our youth of arrogance that they were not prepared to grant. we wanted a year's contract, no cuts, prime time, etcetera, etcetera. and so we were getting no place. my agent at the time ted ashley

was there. he finally said look, gentlemen, why don't we order in a sandwich and a beer and we'll turn on the television see what's on and then we'll go back into negotiations. saturday night. so we do all of that. here's ashley with his feet up. he's on the floor with his feet up. and me sitting there not knowing what the dickens was going on. and that was the first segment, the first segment on show of shows that night. abc said okay you got everything you want, that's it, that's it. they were astonished. >> rose: you've had this bout with depression. >> yes. >> rose: it came to the fore, and there is, you found out and did a great service to people in that professional, th professiol

profession have said this about you. how goes that. >> never felt better. >> rose: never felt better. >> all kinds of unpleasant things have happened over the last, the first, it hit back in 82. it was during the trial. you think about suicide. unbelievable. >> rose: there's an honest moment of yours when you said you went away on a vacation and you thought about just -- >> exactly right. >> rose: just walking out into the ocean and not turning back. because the pain, littl>> becauy little i knew how to handle. and finally finally, in the old days in 82 there were no prozac or s zoloft. i had this that made your hands

shake and all i thought about was going on trial and i was in front of the jury and thinking oh lord he's guilty, why else is his hands shaking. i had two relapses over a period of years and when i turned 75, which is what, nine years ago, zoloft for me came along. took a long long time to hit, to take hold. i'll take it for the rest of my life. i am feeling good. do you know something, i think you're doing my verdict. >> rose: oh, no no no. >> oh yes. >> rose: you're way too young for that. i will do it, though. today, today are you different. >> sure. >> rose: in what way? >> you know charlie, 11:00 at

night, 11 or 12 at night, monday through friday, local station. no one's ever heard. >> rose: no competition in terms of television people doing good interviews. >> right. we decided, ted unite yates andt was ted yaakov thompson' yates,d they say a year ago, what did they say five years ago. what are people saying about them. and we were after tang ling, we were after hassles, we wanted some drama. simple as that. and we got it. all of a sudden everybody in new york back then, some a half century ago, you'd walk down the street hey mike. >> rose: "60 minutes" had some of that. >> that's why don hewlett decided he wanted me to come over and do 6 640 64 "60 minute"

are you after light or heat. heat is easy to get. but after a while it's not a question of mellowing. but what you say to yourself is okay, you know how to do that kind of thing and you enjoy doing it and with good research you could embarras anybody, make anybody squirm. you could do it to me. but if you are really after illumination of an interviewee's character, qualities, substance, texture. if you're really after that, you can ask very pointed questions. sensible questions to get them to talk. you can establish, which you do

so well, a chemistry of confidentiality. that was what comes across the table. which you dirty dog you have done on a couple of occasions over the past and you've got me saying things which i had no intention of saying. why? because you're two people who know a little bit about the same subject. if the interviewee has respect for the interviewer and feel that the interviewer knows a good deal and is well prepared, you can ask anything and you'll find that the interviewee would be a co-copie co-expary coconsp. >> rose: joining me now steve croft and morley safer. they are mike wallace's long time friends and colleagues from 60 minutes and jeff fager the chair of cbs news and the executive producer of "60 minutes" i'm pleased to have each of them at this table. much has been said about mike wallace and we'll repeat some

this evening but these are three people who have worked closely with mike and knew him well, knew the best an&the and the mos for him and have understood what he's about. i want to revisit a question more that i began with on cbs this morning. what was the essence of this man? >> i think people, he was irascible, he was his own person. he took, he never took orders from anybody. he was feisty, he was complicated and probably the most complex man i've ever known. and a man at the same time with terrible insecurities. >> rose: about? >> about himself. i think at some point in mike's life he invented a guy called mike wallace. he was going to be a tough as fails, no nonsense, no holds barred reporter. >> rose: it's a bit like

general patton to define what kind 06 general he would like to be and became that kind of general. >> i think that's precisely what happened with mike. i think as you'll see on the 600 minutes tribute gave him an insecurity he never overcame. he had to go out there every day and prove that mike wallace was the toughest, meanest most successful and most recognizable reporter ever. and he achieved it. >> he had incredible natural abilities. he may have been driven by these insecurities and he talks about those. he did talk about those but he would work harder, work harder than anybody but his natural abilities as a broadcaster and someone that can do an interview that was first class quality interview to what was being said and following up. like none other. and i think to the degree that it almost got to a point where you look forward to finding out regardless of what story he was

reporting, what is he going to ask this person next. >> rose: steve and i talked about the idea sometimes a question was more important. >> exactly. >> rose: than the hance -- ans, because he was? >> i think he was a great journalist but i also think he was a showman. and very much like don hewitt. they were both came from a generation that had appreciated in showmanship. mike had started out really on radio and in television, sort of a i saw a picture of him the other day, song and dance with his wife. and he had a flare. he had star quality that he had been grooming for a long time before he got to before he ever was hired by dick to do the work for 6440 "60 minutes" or news ad

started off in radio. there was something about him. he understood what people wanted. he knew how to perform in front of the camera. he knew the value of dramatic pauses. he was just a star. he was just hard, just never been one like him i think in television. >> rose: your predecessor was don hewitt. what was the relationship between the two of them because you were executive producer when mike was a first correspond empt. >> it's such an important question because i really think that relationship and the two of them are the reason that the broadcast succeeded. you know, i don't think one would have succeeded without the other. i just don't. and i think that it was a tough relationship because they were very competitive with each other as well. and they were similar big personalities. so morley can tell the and so can steve, we all witnessed it going at each other. they went after each other but they needed peach other and i know they knew -- each ought and

i know they knew that but it was a difficult relationship at times. i think don would say if it wasn't for mike of interview sthawrtd witstarted with the nio much of it became trademark "60 minutes" questions that it wouldn't have been the success that it was. >> by the way, legendary fights between don and mike were also in their own way performances by both men. particularly if there's a camera around. there was a camera around. american -- >> rose: they called it 100 round. >> well you should have seen those two go at it during american national. and they ca captured it. i think they were kind of proud, both extremely proud of their love hate relationship in a strange way. >> rose: they knew they needed each other.

>> it was a little bit of lengthen anlennonand mccarthy. a lot was performance but a lot was life too. >> there was a jockey and the thoroughbred. you go out of control, not wanting to go into the starting gate, you know. >> do not want to leave the starting gate. >> rose: what did you learn about interviewing from him? >> well, i think we all learned a tremendous amount from mike. i think that it's something you have to continue to remind yourself to do i think is ask the outrageous question. larry king also said that, don't be afraid to fail, don't be afraid to ask the outrageous question because you sometimes get into territory that you're not quite sure you want to get into. and almost invariably it produces great material to take the interview in a little different direction. i think that mike went into

those interviews, i think he was always very well prepared. i think he studied really hard for those interviews. and i think he also knew how can i make this my interview, how can i go off in a certain direction. >> he was brilliant, absolutely brilliant it was uncanny at finding the subjects on the spot. his most vulnerable spot. and he would go at it, go for it with a scalpel. just watch the blood. >> he found our weak spots too. >> oh, really. >> rose: it's interesting. >> he had a bunch of stock questions, my favorite one was always look, this is what people say about you. [laughter] and once you've asked that question, you can go anywhere. >> rose: exactly right.

but not me. forgive me. anwar sadat. or knock it off. >> he was mike wobble es around tharound -- wallace around the clock. he would hit you if you walked by and you were self conscious about your weight. he would say it looks like you put on a few pounds. [laughter] >> mike did not have a clear stand. there was no off switch for him. he would say things and i know countless, countless not just with people but others, he'll say something and he'll regret it. he'll never admit that he regretted it. and he just, if it was in his head, it came out of his mouth. there was absolutely no -- snrievment n -->> rose: no mono

governor. >> it was part of the appeal of the man. and you knew it wasn't sugar coated ever that he was telling you right from the heart what he thought. and that's appealing. and i think it's part of what made him such pa an infectious character or if he insulted you which he did try to do often, he was hard to stay mad at him. he was a really loveable guy. >> it was interesting too when mike was first hired, he was hired in 19623 b3 by dixon. >> rose: wasn't there a story that the president of cbs news looking for a job and was about to go accept a job somewhere in local news as an anchor and he said if you're that serious come to work for us. >> precisely. he actually charmed solant into hiring him. he wasn't crazy about the idea because of mike's previous jobs. >> this was after his son peter was killed and died. >> yes. in 63.

the other correspondence corress there was charles coinberg, and borrow debtborrowborroburdett -. >> radio guys. >> radio and they were just making the transition. they would say mike, they thought he was crass and brassy. they took the same attitude by the way to walter cronkite because he was merely a wire service guy. i think with mike, there was no way mike wasn't going to whip these guys. he was determined -- >> rose: to get the story. >> to get the story. to get the attention.

and sure enough he did. and i must say that ultimately few of those guys anyway, really respected him. >> rose: he earned their respect by the work he did. >> absolutely. and you know, there was nothing, mike got down in the trenches. mike d as you said, somebody said, the homeland, he really did. and again -- >> rose: don't you have to do that. don't the best ones always have to do that. >> we all have to do that but mike was particularly diligent about that. and he would find that one kernel in the research that he knew was going to really make this story. he could find the core of that and he was brilliant at finding it. >> he used to go through the research and try and find out what is the stunne stupidest ths person has ever said.

[laughter] and he was acting like why did you say this, why were you unwise enough to say this. what was going through your head. but you know, some of the, there was talk earlier about the showmanship. the fact that he didn't come from the morrow tradition in that he was not cbs news, i think liberated him to do a lot of things that other people at cbs news probably never would have thought of at that point in time. because even in 19678, television network, television news was pretty stodgy. >> rose: let's talk about critical moments in his life. one the death of his son peter. what else do we put in that. there was clearly -- >> the westmoreland trial. >> rose: yes. >> that played so prominently because he was deaf sphait deva. it was a public attack on a story he was involved in, a documentary cbs reports produced by the great george kyl and some

mistakes were made in it but not in terms of the content from everything that has been reported. and that's the main thrust of the piece but it was devastating for him because it was very public, he was getting ticked away at every day. and he went into a serious depression. and talks about that with morley in our tribute to him on sunday which is a depression that was so severe that he tried to take his own life. >> rose: he fact he talked publicly about it on larry king about it. >> it was post depression which was really a huge contribution in terms of his life because he was such a major player in bringing depression to the forefront as something not to be ashamed of but that's something that can be pretty. and he was treated successfully and i think morley said he noticed as he came out publicly with this affliction it helped

him through it and made him stronger and he really, it changed him. >> one of the things that contributed to the depression was this constant tipping away at his reputation which was so vitally important to him. and in coming out about the depression, he created an even grander reputation that he had before. people really respected. he won people's respect. >> rose: he told guys he had a vulnerability. >> precisely. >> the important thing to remember about the westmoreland suit is that at cbs news we had with a unit dedicated to covering it. almost every day that was a piece on the cbs evening news about that suit which plays into what morley was saying earlier about his insecurities, that the last thing he would want is on a piece he did was in serious question and being aired every

night coast to coast. >> rose: this was cbs reports not 60 minutes. >> also something about being involved in a libel trial or in a courtroom situation where you are really not in charge. you are being attacked by everybody and yet you are under restrain by your own attorneys. and have to kind of sit back and take it all in and watch it all play out and it can be very very difficult. >> rose: how was it for you jeff being a produce, creating 6"60 minutes" and then coming back as executive producer and these giants were there. i mean what was mike's response, what was his relationship, how did he -- >> brootlez. -- brutal. what made may situation difficult, actually mike was an ally and friend. he was actually very difficult. what made my beginning difficult

was the five months later the 60 minutes the two piece the documents the bush story and that really had a negative impact on all of us at "60 minutes" and 60 minute "60 minut was a devastating time. distracted everybody for good reason, it was devastating and difficult. and so that had a big impact on it. but i had to say mike wanted it to work. he wanted it to work for me. >> rose: he worked for the show he loved. >> he wanted to work for the show he loved, he cared about it so much. and he was really helpful. and look we got into our fights too. that's the way it works at "60 minutes" it's out on the table in the interest of the story getting better. he was a tough cookie but also very supportive. >> rose: did you have to say it's time to go. >> i did. that was difficult. that was one of the hardest things i ever had to do because

mike didn't want to and it was time. about two months after he went, he was back on the air doing stories. >> he came back to be prudent which i think is one of most must not rule interviews he had ever done which he said to putin wait a minute, you appoint the regional governors and you call this a democracy. and he said maybe i'm wrong but that doesn't look like dac demoy to me and putin says you are wrong. it was really powerful. and realized it was part of the retirement was that he would be able to contribute stories in the future. none of us wanted to see him go altogether. but he wasn't at the top of his game. >> rose: someone said he looked better after 6 5 than before 65. you may have said that. >> yes. when you think about his politics, passion is at the top.

i think it was sort of always in his blood. he came very close to joining the nixon administration to work, to be press secretary. i think he was always in love with it because it had all sort of the things that he liked, the intrigue. >> rose: it was part of the manipulation. and the thing>> all the corresp0 minutes" are different in terms of how they approached the job. mike spent most of his time working the phones, trying to get people to sit down with him. and trying to find out exactly what was going on in new york or washington, what was going on. and he had a great network and he worked it every day. so i think that washington and politics was one of those things, it was changeable and he just liked the intrigue and changeability of the manipulative aspects of it i think. >> rose: he talked to me once

of an am bush interviewing in the involving part of the role that "60 minutes" has undertaken, has done less is anywhere to say. >> much less. there was a period when it was constant. >> rose: and nobody was better at it than mike, right. >> he was good at it. >> rose: did he enjoy that? >> i think he relished it, but i also think he grew weary it. >> the broadcast was benefiting from it. >> the broadcast was benefiting from it but honestly everyone felt uneasy about that. unmike. when he was doing it, we all felt this really is not what we want to be remembered for. >> no. th term.in terms of what reallyd motivate him in toamplez his career is fine -- in terms of his career is finding out the truth. this is performance in a sense where you're trying to build drama. it was more about drama than it was about story and it wasn't really about journalism a lot of the time. and i think steve was talking

earlier about how we've been going through mike's stories quite a bit and comparing notes. but i think one of the reasons that they wanted to get out of that business was because they were imitators. >> he become a characterization of itself. and he said during this interview that i've forgotten about he said everybody was doing it. geraldo rivera was doing it all time and that's when we decided to do it. i really high high regard for geraldo rivera. it had been taken over and become a monster that was out of control. >> there was a sense and still is a convenience until, and mike was central to this when you think about people, they sort of patch the landscape you wait to see that person pro filed by "60 minutes" and frequently that was mike. he would give the defining interview. >> who had a body of work that

made them worthy of a 6 "60 minutes" profile which i think was part of the criteria and every one of these guys have done significant stories like that. but it's amazing when you put them tobacco as w together as wr this sunday's broadcast how many different people he covered in that world, whether it's celebrity or sports. and he loved it and they are memorable. it's really i think one of the best highlights of this broadcast to see a collection. >> rose: and to see the questions that were just unraveled or define person. fake a look, this one has been seen often which ran on december 26th, 1977. here it is. >> you know what i'm going to ask you. >> i know what you're going to ask me all the time. >> a thousand strieptz forever. you played that on i am an american day, central park. >> that's it. i like this march but it's very

badly played by this band. they played three times as fast, because you know it is a walking march. but you cannot ... you can't walk like that. it's completely spoiled. >> are you a patriot. >> i forgot that. >> come on, you haven't forgotten. >> i tell you, i don't know it. i have to remember, it's so difficult. >> go ahead. >> at the end. >> go on from there. ♪

>> how long has it been, 20 years. >> 30. >> 30 years since you've played that. >> rose: wow. it reminds me, and i throw this out. i mean, nothing is better on television when you see two people engaged by each other unscripted, not knowing what's going to come next. it is the magic of television to capture that. >> yes, that was one of his very favorites. >> rose: this one. >> yes. >> also mike i figure is in awe over that kind of talent. >> rose: talent. >> such a larger than life character, he just couldn't get enough of him. >> rose: so his legacy was, is? >> well, i just think it's a

pretty impressive le legacy, "60 minutes." i also think and i know you feel this way charlie because you do it so much, it's the interview, the ability to ask the question. and it's really, he really stands out as i think the best that we've ever had at cbs news. and boy what a legacy 60 "60 minutes" they were going into our 45th season. it's hard to imagine we would have gotten this far if mike wasn't around. >> his longevity, his energy, the fact that he became such an important figure in the last half of the 20th century. i said this on the morning news the other day. he was parodied on the cis cesar show and on the simpsons. that's 60 years where people know who mike wallace is and

that's reflected on a long long owowe oweobit in the mor in the" >> you could write a pretty good history in the last half century just based on mike interviews. who we were watching, who are the entertainers, who are the politicians, what were the issues. just think about it. weaving your life through those interviews, a pretty interesting history of most of the century. >> rose: i met mike wallace two years after i came to this city. not as a journalist and not in television but as a lawyer. and i met him at the home of cleveland ai avery and he said o me because of curiosity you should do what i do. little did i know i would do even a semblance of what he did.

but one of the prielz possessions that -- prize possessions i have is when i came to 6 "60 minutes" at your invitation a letter i received from mike saying this is great, this is great for "60 minutes" and this is great for you because this is where you belong. it meant everything to me that he thought this was a natural coming. so mike wallace, dead at 93. we remember him because he was unique and he was special and he was good. and he made a difference. and what has happened in this country, on "60 minutes" on sunday, you will see a remarkable appreciation remembrance of mike wallace which will say a lot about him and say a lot about the program that he made such a contribution to. thank you for joining us this evening. see you tomorrow night.

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