me, we completely, you know, became interchangeable about that because i went in 24 hours, i was completely hooked, next wanted to go to india, but i found -- >> you never wanted to go? >> no. i never wanted -- people said, though, you know, would you like to go? i never said that. i never said it wanted to go there, and i had an uncle and aunt and a lot of cousins who lived there, and -- >> rose: it took this to get you there? >> yes. >> rose: we continue this evening with ed luce, he is chief u.s. columnist for the financial times newspaper. and the author of time to start thinking america in the age of descent. >> the american middle class is the most, the motor, it has been until recently the motor not just of the american economy its spending power but of the global economy, and the fact that that motor gets a little bit weaker with each fresh business cycle or actually quite a lot weaker

with each fresh business cycle if you take the last two, including the one we are in the middle of, it is profoundly worrying because people don't have the answers, policy makers don't have the answers, in terms of what to do about this. so it is with a great sense of foreboding and also of feeling troubled that i wrote this book. >> rose: we conclude this evening with corinne narassiguin, she is a candidate for the french parliament, a candidate to represent french citizen whose live in the united states and canada. >> ten years now of continuous right wing government, especially over the past five years, in the regime we have actually seen less government, we have seen healthcare coverage, has become more expensive, we have seen education system, that also has weakened, public education system that has weakened, and

these are fundamental, i think, for rekoff, for rehe koff i are on the long-term to make sure that we have social justice, we invest in education, that everybody has access close to home to quality healthcare. >> judy devon, american descent, and the french elections, when we continue. >> rose: funding for charlie rose was provided by the following.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: judi dench is here, an acting legend from theatre to film in 1999 she won the phony award for her role in david hair's, amy's view, that same year she received the oscar for best supporting actress for a performance as queen elizabeth in shakespeare in love, when you talk about judi says sir richard

air, the former head of the national royal theatre you unpack a suit case full of superlatives, he is sort of dividend and not a trace of self advertisement about her and genuinely modest but in my view she is our greatest actress. here is a look at just some of her work. >> when i went around tied diagnosis everything for you and you didn't come and you didn't come, and then there was nothing left to make the effort thought. >> > i -- >> i will let you into a secret, i have my eye on you. >> oh, for a character in your novel. >> the young english girl transfigured by italy. >> why should she not be? >> it happened to the goths. >> you don't like me, bond, you don't like my methods, you think i am an accountant, a bean counter more interested in my numbers than instinct.

>> good because i think you a misogynist sexist dinosaur. >> i cannot allow it, because i cannot live without you. without you, i can't find the strength to be who i must be. >> very worthy sum, a very worthy question. the very truth and nature of love. i bear witness to the wager and will be the judge of it as occasion arises. we don't become happy just because we are free. if we are, or because we have been educated, if we have, but because education may be the means by which we realize we are happy. >> mrs. darcy is engaged to my daughter, now what are you to say? >> you can have no reason to suppose you would make an offer to me. >> you selfish girl. this has been planned since their infancy, do you think it

can be prevent bid a young woman of inferior birth. >> you have no courage. stick your finger out and it will come right. >> i am trying to save your finances. >> i don't need your protection, thank you very much. >> >> they are obviously not daring enough, why don't we get rid of the clothes. >> pardon? me? >> let's have naked girls. >> i think -- when i was young i had such a vision of myself. i dreamt i would be someone to know, in the world. but one learns one's scale. i have thought of ending my days alone. >> my dear you must not concern yourself, a great actress like yourself has many things on your mind. >> you think i am a great actress? >> you know how to act for the

camera. >> rose: so what do you think? >> already some clips i have never seen. >> rose: but you did pretty well, i thought. >> oh -- >> rose: what did you think? >> what was that voice at the beginning? >> rose: that was you when you were a child. >> oh, my. it has been abused so badly since. >> rose: what is really a remarkable body of work, my dear. >> well, i don't remember a lot of it, well i do remember doing it but, you know. >> rose: yeah. >> lovely to do. >> rose: lovely to do. also it is like a snapshot of so much of british film and theatre. >> not much theatre there. >> rose: well, some occasionally. now on your part -- would you rather we have shown what you had done on stage? >> yes. >> rose: because? >> because, although it would have had to encap still late a

certain thing and may not have been the right night, at least, you know, in the theatre you get more chance to have a go at things. >> rose: you go every night. >> because you do it every night, and you adjust things as you go along, and some nights -- >> rose: it can be better and better. >> sometimes you get it, you know, i remember peter coming on once and it got a bit barack what do you mean? >> where manager is the sheikh may be something like that. on the end. >> rose: so did you do films simply because it was a challenge or make money or -- >> i did do film and when i was asked to do it, i did it but i didn't really -- the theatre, you know, is the thing i like the best, and then it was only after mrs. brown, really, that i really got film scripts at all and then, you know, if you work with people like kevin spacy,

and people, you know, you learn about it, and i never want to be there when i don't. >> rose: you have one more bond coming out, don't you? >> yes, yes. >> rose: at least one. >> did you believe -- we have. >> rose: yes. are you excited about the jubilee, the diamond jubilee? because you have a couple of -- >> well, i it will be a good old day of celebration, i hope, and i think they are planning lots of things, not least of which the -- on the river, with 1,000 boats going up the thames, that should be spectacular. >> rose: i want to come back to all of that, that whole thing about acting because so many people have said such wonderful things about you, i want you zero just to take one, one of your fellow actors in this film, this is bill and i talking about you, here it is. dane judi dench. >> yes. >> rose: what does she have? >> well, she has something, dane judi dench has something that is inexpressionable there are books

written about how she a chiefs what she a chiefs, somebody has asked me this question before and i came up with an idea, one way of putting it which is, she somehow, she does something which very few people are involved in, and it is something that very few people attempt which is she arrange somehow to arrive on stage as it were unarmed. she then allows the play and the evening to happen to her. it requires enormous courage, and very few people are at it. >> rose: when you said that i didn't quite know what unarmed meant. >> i know, wha what it means is without tricks, without a plan b, it means without some sort of strategy or safety net that is going to get you out of trouble, he is rare. you know, she has a gat -- and i am trying to avoid being lame or saying sort of, you know, kind of clumsy things, but she does have -- it seems there is courage there and it is great

courage and it is to do? how with generosity of spirit and compassion. >> rose: pretty nice, wasn't it? >> paid, was he? >> rose: no, no, no. >> rose: so tell me about this film. i mean, you are reunited with a director you like. >> very much, very much. >> and it is -- it is a collection of great actors, a great idea, tell me about evelyn. >> well, she is one of the people who, he is left a widow suddenly and find she is also not only a widow but has no money, because i made up for myself that her -- that her husband was probably a gambler, and had his money on the horses. and -- >> rose: oh you made that up? that was your concept of the character? >> yes i think that is probably what happened there, that, you know, it is very easy to put a lot of money or a not say, that it was a lockdown when you got there, when you come back to

somebody and say, no, i was about even that day, no, of course, i didn't lose thousands and thousands of pounds. >> rose: but you know what happens, once you decide to commit to a movie like, this all of these other people want to come, they just say if judi dench is there, i want to come. >> charlie they have been asked at the same time, they would, they would. >> rose: but they are thrilled by the fact you are going to be there. >> well we all knew each other and that is very nice because we were all away and it is like traveling theatre company. >> rose: an ensemble. >> yes. and at the end of the day, you just are able to sit down and have a drink and something to eat and that was it and talk about the day's work. >> rose: and working in india is not bad either? >> did you like it? >> yes i loved it. >> rose: what did you love? >> i loved, even the part of eden and me, we completely, you know, became interchangeable about that, because within 24 hours i was completely hooked,

never wanted to go to india. but i found -- >> rose: never wanted to go? >> no. i never wanted. if people said oh, you know, would you like to go? i never said that. i never said i wanted to go there and i had an uncle and aunt and a lot of cousins who live there, and -- >> rose: it took this to get you there? >> yes. >> i can't wait to go back. here is the trailer for the film because people are going to talk a lot about this film. >> come spend your autumn years in an indian palace. this is the day. it is a luxury development where all residents are in their golden years. like the coast of florida. >> yeah, but with more elephants. >> flight 247 is boarding now. >> would you like some of this? i believe it is called rafata. >> if i can't pronounce it, i don't want to eat it. >> this is your first time in india? >> yes, if that would be all right. >> it is going to be extraordinary.

>> welcome to the best marigold hotel! >> it is amazing. oh! >> i want the hotel in the brochure. >> in we have, in india we have a saying, everything has a happy ending so if it isn't happy, it's not the end. >> the challenge is to cope with it and not just cope, but thrive. i have a job. >> i would like to make the first public speech in my life. >> imagine me naked. >> i am afraid i gave that up several years ago. >> ah, there you are. good as new. >> really? >> no, of course not! >> would you like me to not fix that chair? >> how could you bear this country? what do you see that i don't? >> light.

colors. smiles. it teaches me something. >> she wants to thank you for the kindness. >> for being kind. >> you are the only one that acknowledges her. >> i am not even -- >> have a dream, that could be so wonderful they will simply refuse to die. >> this man is dead. to preserve the dignity -- >> india like life itself, i suppose is about what you bring to it. i am really loving this! >> are you all right? >> if i could get a glass of water. that was a gin and tonic. >> i knew that. >> the best exotic marigold hotel. >> you are not worried about having the danger of sex at your age. >> if she dies, she dies. >> rose: if she dies, she dies. oh, that really makes india look fascinating, the best exotic marigold hotel is the title of this film, what is the theme? a

bunch of old people go to -- >> old people see an advertisement saying come and spend your twilight years in this hotel. and for all sorts of different reasons they take the chance on it. >> rose: but it says something about them, that they are willing to take a chance because generally taking chances goes with being younger. >> it certainly does. i wouldn't have the -- to get up and do that, i wouldn't do that. >> rose: yes but you take chances don't you? >> well i take different -- >> rose: what kind of chances? >> well, i suppose like i don't read the play before i come to rehearsal and realize i have made a terrible mistake. >> rose: i read that. >> it is true. no. but you know to suddenly think well i am not going to settle to settle down with my son and i am just -- i am going to go to a totally unknown place and take a chance on it, admiral that. you know, i don't know why at a certain anal we should think

that is it. >> rose: we have to accept the preconceptions of getting old. >> i think that is true. >> rose: i do too. i mean, the notion is, too, in a film like, this i mean, john can talk about it, but i mean you get extraordinary talent, i mean, see what happens when you put them together. >> well, it is john, isn't it? >> rose: yes. >> because everybody wants to work with him. >> rose: do they really? >> yes. i mean, it is just sublime to work with. >> rose: so john madden has meant what to your career? >> well he has meant everything to my film career, because if i hadn't made mrs. brown with him i wouldn't be sitting here talking to you now, charlie or all of the other years. >> rose: no, i would have been looking for you and in search of you. >> and i mean, that entirely changed my career. entirely. >> rose: after that you were a film actress? >> well, i don't know whether da -- i got more offers. >> rose: did harvey play a role too? >> he played a large role as well you know because he --

well, because mrs. brown was made for television, harvey saw it and this is going to be a film, not television. >> rose: shakespeare came along and here you are. >> i promised harvey weinstein tattooed on my bum,. >> rose: you don't want to do that, i encourage you not to do that. >> he is not. >> rose: yes, of course he is not. >> he is, he would like everybody to do that. >> yes. we would all -- >> rose: so there is a time in which you first appeared in hamlet, and in the british production, and the reviews were not good. >> terrible. >> rose: terrible. >> my first job. yeah, i know. and were you devastated? >> yes. did you think i have chosen the wrong profession? >> i thought am i going to be checked out of the old vick. >> rose: yeah, you thought that because then they decide to take it to the stage but then they say you are not coming. >> no, they said you can come,

but somebody else is going to pay your bar. so i went, paying and the 12th night and the princess of france henry v but i was at hamlet and harvey. >> rose:. >> he who henry the fifth and i had the night off when it was hamlet and he had just done room with a view so he was off doing all sorts of pressing things and i saw i could hit replay, certainly every play in new york. >> rose: and then when they decided to do it again -- >> then when we went back we were asked to go to yugoslavia. >> and the lady who played ophelia, they came and said, would you like to do it again? >> i said yeah. >> rose: now that is because they have come to appreciate you more. >> i don't think so. >> rose: did you learn something? >> had you learned something? >> i think i had to learn a lot. >> rose:. >> rose: what did you learn? >> i think i learned a lot about how to be a better actress by watching, watching people in the theatre, which, you know, is the

only way you can learn it, i think. >> rose: and if a young actress says come to you, tell me what the most important thing you have learned about this craft, what would you say? >> well, a good tip to pass on, you mean? >> rose: a tip, if you may, life lesson. >> i think this a few times before. i -- >> rose: what you have said to me before. >> there are two things that when i play cleopatra with peter orr and, there are two, i was very, very worried about it and there are two notes that peter hall gave me, one was, don't think that you have got to play every aspect of a part in every scene of a character. you just play one small bit of it, and the next scene you can concentrate on another, and the next and then at the end, maybe you will have presented the whole character. which was a very good tip to learn because you get so anxious, ophelia, i was madder

than your box of frogs, you know, but i know now that i only needed one way of saying she was mad. >> rose: is that a british expression, madder than a box of frogs? >> is it? >> rose: i don't know. >> or a cut snake? there are a number, mad as a box of frogs. >> rose: a box of frogs. or a snake. you could just think of madness with a bunch of frogs in a box. >> and then the other thing he said was, don't believe that everything everybody says about you in a play is true. >> rose: you mean how good your performance was? >> no. in a barber says, well, when they say to him, what she likes, when she gets back to rome and she sat and everything, but peter said, remember, he is back in a pub i in in rome with his makes and of course he is going to say when you went by on a boat wow could smell the perfume and people fall over when they see her. don't believe that, that is boasting. it is two marvelous notes.

you have seen so many, i mean, you mentioned lawrence harvey and you think of all of the people you acted with, jim broad bend, there are so many, who do you remember i mean -- >> i remember them all for one reason or another. not guilty at this behavior. >> rose: oh, tell me. >> or whatever. >> rose: yes. but i do -- >> rose: g go ahead. >> i do, because and i had from 57 to 61, i was at the vick all that, the old vick all that time and we did the whole canon of shakespeare and so i mean when i came to play gertrude in hamlet with daniel day-lewis all i could think of is karl brown of gertrude in the one -- who stub lineally wonderful, i thought i will copy her. and -- but, you know, you learn absolutely, i mean, in the -- when i went to the vick, the company was run by john neville,

and he taught me all i ever learned about behavior in a company, and actually how -- you know so that you don't come to a rehearsal and, unprepared so you do do that amount of film work, but you say he taught me all i have learned. >> all i learned about being in a company and part of a company. >> rose: the part of it was don't come unprepared. >> don't come unprepared. >> rose: what else. >> don't come unprepared, always be on time, don't mess about, and there is a certain amount of homework you have to do, don't come and was the time to do your bit of homework, you didn't do the night before and take up everybody else's time. >> rose: ah. sso it insulted them if you are not prepared. >> it is just consideration that other people are doing a job as well. >> rose: who else do you remember? >> oh, oh who do i remember? oh, dougie campbell, john gielgud. >> rose: john gielgud. >> yes. >> in a cherry orchard and i

went to stratford, directed by sadanie with peggy ashcroft and john, well, and michelle, gave me a very bad time, and she -- i mean, it was unbelievably stellar cast, and we get to the end of a run-through, and he would go around giving people notes at the end of act 1, and then he would get to me and go, i have nothing for you. no, i don't know how to get it right. so when it came to a run -- it made me more and more and more tense when it came to a run-through of the play, long after that, i said, john, as we went around to do act 2, he said to me, well if you have been doing that for me i would be delighted he said and he changed my entire attitude about it. you know. >> rose: your daughter, said the only part of her that is totally unreachable for me is

that she has never told me why she is an actress. >> no. that is another thing john said, make up your mind why you want to be an actor and never keep anyone, keep it to yourself. >> rose: exactly. >> it is true. >> rose: do you know why you decided to be an actor? >> i do. >> rose: but you are not going to share it with me? >> no, no. i am a blank wall,. >> rose: a blank wall. but at the same time, what is really interesting about you for me is that as you have done all of these kinds of things, you have some magical thing about you and maybe it is the personality that we see that just, people love you, they do. you know that. >> well, i have plenty of people who have said, you know what is that play you are in? tax city driver. what is that play you were in?

the role of family and this man said, yeah. rubbish. >> rose: not so good, i didn't like it. >> he is a perfect shakespearean because they have a fantastic -- this is what i find interesting, this have speed of wit, speed of response, that only works if the actor convince it is audience that that language is being coined by that brain in that situation, you live in the moment, it is like bill and i once said to me that the secret to acting is speaking the words as if you have just -- >> i never thought of them, yes, on the 17th day. yes. that is true. isn't it? it is true of all of us. >> rose: yes. >> and how do you -- i mean, other than hard work, hard work, hard work, you know, more roles, more roles, more roles, that's the only way to get that. >> i don't know, charlie, i don't know.

>> rose: all right. >> i mean sometimes i have watched things i have done, i thought i am speaking much too quickly. i should take more time about something, you know, but didn't you have a director tell you that? >> yes, no. and they might have told you and you forget and get back into your old ways again, it is like falling over. i fall over nearly everything i do. >> rose: how do you feel about growing old yourself? >> well, i don't use it much so let's use it. >> rose: all right. >> no, i don't think -- it is to do without a thing, that you get it, you are going to retire? are you going to retire soon? >> rose: no. >> what? >> why? i can't. it is not even -- >> we are in that minute minority, it is an oxymoron, isn't it, that do jobs that we love. >> rose: exactly. >> and we are lucky enough to be employed doing it. >> rose: yes. >> rose: count your blessings every day. >> count your blessings. >> it is, i know. the other thing i find interesting about

this cast is what you learn from each other. >> that is the product of a great life in theatre. >> and it is also the nice -- the good bit, that is a good bit, you know, that i could -- i couldn't do a one woman show, i would have no interest at all in doing a one woman show. >> rose: you could do one but you -- >> no, i couldn't do it. >> rose: why? >> there is nobody to interact with. >> rose: ah. >> and money to kind of get ready for. >> rose: you couldn't do that with the audience? >> that's the job but it is a bit solitary at that, so i wouldn't, you know, we could be doing the same play we had been doing for 100 -- we had done 100 times, but you do it ever so slightly different every night, ever so slightly. >> rose: i would. >> and with any kind of sensitivity, it would make me change slightly, and, therefore, you know, it is like those great things in a ballroom, with masses of mirrors on them, that

go and reflect little bits of light, and sometimes, and i think the longer you act and the -- that word we don't use, you get. >> rose: right. >> it doesn't happen so much, but there are sometimes a moment in the play, that everything and every actor will tell you this, that everything works that night, everything, everybody is just a certain degree of tiredness, all a certain degree of preparedness and elation and the audience is in the same kind of -- >> rose: place. >> -- relation and somehow the play will take off but it happens, rare, rare, rare. >> rose: i assume tiredness because all of your -- all of your mechanisms are less there that might make you be thinking about it so something takes over, other than a consciousness? >> yes.

yes. and if you get too tired, you have blown it, but you can get to a stage where it just locks into place without the effort that is required the night before. >> rose: could you name three moments on stage that has happened to you in which -- >> i know that on the first night of anthony and cle pa tra at the national we did the play as well as we possibly could up to that time and i don't ever remember that happening in a production before, but until the moment, when we rehearsed and everything had ghosn as well as it possibly could to that night, and i remember thinking, well, that's it. that is as much as we could do until tonight, then later we did 100 performances of it later and it got better but until that night, it had gone as well as it could. >> rose: and everybody always heard this story about lawrence olivier and he said this marvelous, wonderful and he said, you know, don't you know that, he said, yes.

>> but how do i do it. >> rose: so the new bond, sky -- what is it called? >> sky fall. >> rose: sky fall, when is that coming out? >> it is coming out in october into the best exotic marigold hotel comes out on friday, may -- >> thank you. >> rose: and luce is here, the chief u.s. columnist for the financial times, he recently traveled around the united states and observed a country in exhibit and political crisis, he writes about his experiences in a new book, it is called i'm to start thinking, america in the age of descent. >> i am pleased to have him here at this table for the first time, welcome. >> thank you for having me charlie. >> rose: we will talk about this book be but in a sense if you look at where america is and whether it is in decline or the descent or ascent or whether it is the question comes up competition with china. >> uh-huh. >> rose: we are looking today at a crisis in china. >> give me your take on this. >> well, i mean, my take is not going to be particularly sophisticated but the first

thing that struck me about this is the confusion, i mean cheerily there isn't unity there in china, we had this ongoing massive scandal with the dissident, the blind human rights victim of the chinese regime, and a all of these unconfirmed rumors, in fact, that, you know, he was reported to have wanted to come back into china as it were and as to this hospital in beijing, because there were threats conveyed to him his wife would be beaten to death and his daughter and wife would be, at the very minimum intimidated yet we had simultaneous briefings or reports of briefings from state department officials that his safety, you know, had been assured. so there is something big missing here, the front page of "the new york times", you have got campbell, who is of course in charge. >> rose: he is the state department's man on china. >> state department's man on

china and asia as a whole, a really top-notch diplomat, somebody i know well and you know well. he is not going to screw up a situation like this, but this stuff we don't know, and i think we will have to find out. >> what kind of stuff are you speculating we may not know? i don't know the specifics but what kind of stuff? >> what was the conversation that went on between the americans and the chinese? i piewm, kurt and the chinese -- >> rose: what sector of state got, the secretary of state got involved when she got there and also spoke by telephone. >> and the ambassador speaks -- >> and the ambassador gary lock as well. what exactly did the chinese -- was this kind of b movie threat that they conveyed to the american? >> rose: i don't know that's what i want to know. what do you think they might have threatened? >> i find it very hard to believe it would have been so b or c movieish they would have said to the americans, please tell that if he doesn't come back we are going to destroy his family. i just find that very hard to

believe. but there are with a. >> rose: threat against him or the americans. >> this is so important to us that you better listen to us, you know, this is really, really important to us, it is not your judgment as to whether it should or should not be and you may make all the arguments you want about universal values but we are telling you that we are strong, an this is a problem for us. and don't, don't beat us up, at least and they got that message or the president never mentioned his name. the prenever mentioned his name i find that confusing too, and this is where sort of the missing information might help, i find that confusing too, because the critique in this general election from his opponent, mitt romney and others, is that this is a weak president who leads from behind, doesn't stand up for american values, decline chief apologist and chief whatever moniker is available. and the last thing about is he is going to want to do personally and also from a political point of view is seem to kowtow to china, to be weak

with china. there is missing information here. there is something that hasn't -- we will find out that will explain some of the confusion we have been talking about, because it is not in obama's interest to be giving back a human rights celebrated human rights case like this whose safety cannot be and you cannot believe chinese assurances, whatever assurance it is state department has been given, i am sure they would take with a pinch of salt at the best of times and this isn't the best of times. so there is something we don't know. if you look at emerging nations, a critical element of tear he her wrens is a rising middle class. what did you find out about the american middle class? >> something very familiar to us all, and very dispiritingly familiar to us all, which is the continued and accelerating alcohol league out of the american middle class. the fact that for most middle

class families three years, we are now three years into the recovery in june, '09 the recovery began, we are three years into it most middle class families are poorer now three years into the recovery than they were in '09, of course they were poorer at the end of the recession than they were at the beginning in '07, that is normal. but they are poorer at the end of -- in the middle of this recovery than at the beginning of the recovery, the last business cycle, 02, to '07, was the first in history, in american -- modern american history where the median household was poorer at the end of it than at the beginning of it. 2,000 a dollars in real terms poorer. that has accelerated, that deep structural problem has accelerated since the great recession. but it precedes the collapse, it precedes the huge contraction we saw when lehman brothers collapsed it is a structural deeply rooted problem with a

competitiveness of the american middle class, of the bulk of the american labor force of how we work and live and it goes back to the 1970's some of these trend, and that very fact, this isn't, of course, something you ue, unique to america this is affecting the developed world across the world in one way or another, but the american middle class is the most of, the motor of the western world and it has been until recently the motor not just of the american economy, but its spending power but of the global economy and the fact that that motor gets a little bit weaker with each fresh business cycle or actually quite a lot weaker with each fresh business cycle of you take the last two, including the one we are in the middle of, it is profoundly worrying because people don't have the answers, policy answers don't have the answers, in terms of what to do about this. so it is with a great sense of foreboding and also of feeling

troubled that i wrote this book. >> rose: what is interesting you say that no policymaker has an answer. >> no policy -- you know, in '08, if you had asked any observer or any economist in '08, are our assumptions going to be revisited and look at the paradigm that we have that led up to '08, the collapse, if you like this in the rubble of lehman brothers, people, people would have predicted that by 2012 there would have been a lot more of a radical rethinking, that would have gone on than we have seen, there has been very little challenging, very little challenge of the basic underlying assumptions that how this economy works, we have seen in the last few months an employment, welcome drop of about 200,000 a month and on friday, tomorrow we will get the april numbers, and -- but these new jobs that have been created are at a lower, a significantly

lower wage than the ones, a and they are replacing that are were destroyed so the market is clearing at a lower price each time, the great sort of tide lifting all boats is working in the opposite direction and we don't really have a rethinking of this model. i think the assumption is all we need, all we need from the nontea party types is all we need is to get more fuel in the engine, and the engine will work fine. but actually the engine isn't working fine, it is a far more fundamental problem that we are talking about. >> rose: is it because our politics is dysfunctional? >> it doesn't help, i mean, there is some solutions, you know, that are obvious. >> rose: right. >> that don't require that much rethinking, such as proper lifting up of american proper to first world levels, recession development, education, you know, it is more difficult to imagine it being implemented more than what the policy shift would be. so that doesn't help but i don't think these kinds of -- these

kinds of measures in themselves address -- this is a very large problem we are talking about. >> rose: it has to do with our education, it has to do with everything? >> it has to do with everything. interestingly if you mention k through 12, you mention a generation, the stagnation there in terms of your performance at the schools, also dates back to the seventies. in american america, it was effectively number one in most things in until the sixties and now it is below 20, below 30. >> rose: it is an interesting thing too because it is a time in which you need presidential leadership, you need the bully pulpit, and. >> and we are not seeing much of that, to be fair to obama -- >> rose: that is what i am saying about multiple voices it is harder to mount the bully pulpit, not that he doesn't have the skills to do it or can't do it. >> if i was to criticize obama, franklin roosevelt had a bold experiment face and didn't actually know the answer. >> rose: right. >> he didn't actually have a paradigm, he knew the world had

been ripped up, and that experimentation was needed, and these things would have to be tried, and i don't see that kind of out of the box radical thinking from this administration, it is fairly safe on the economy, it is stuck within fairly conventional orthodox bounds, and that might be understandable, you know, this he have had a fire to put out, why should we expect them to be throwing up architect plans for a new house, it is easy for us to say. >> rose: but you could ask, and america has two things, one, it has -- it is a place -- it is a place of universal values, and appreciation of universal values, and secondly, it has a spirit of innovation like nobody else. >> i would agree with both, and look i am not saying this is not a simplistic world where america's decomplain which means china is the next superpower, it never will be a country of mass immigration and never be an

attractive country that will command the kind of leadership that america can command. so the decline in american competitiveness which i think is real, is quite a complex phenomenon there are a lot of places competing with america which leads me to the second point about american innovation, america remains the most inadministrative country in the world but it is overwhelming commanding lead in innovation is only really strongly apparent still in a social media sector, if you look across sectors like biotech, semiconductors, they have been losing that overwhelming advantage in silicon valley and elsewhere for quite a while now and if you look at the rate of entrepreneurialism in american there is nothing more american in starting up a business, it is now at its lowest level, for decades, and the number of businesses that are less than a-year-old is at its lowest ratio to the total number of businesses. >> if you look at us around the world are you still as relevant

been to the future of regions and individual countries? >> yes. yeah. america is never going to lose its relevance, i mean, i mentioned social media, and of course this is a tool, way bow is a way of dissent and controlling in china and facebook, et cetera, and apple, you know, everybody will have that in the palm of their hand. americans never are going to be irrelevant and it is never going to decline in the way britain declined, because britain is, after all, quite a small country. but make no mistake, america's competitiveness is declining and the american political system is not responding to this decline, and to the extent it has been responding, it has been making it worse. >> rose: you write here the united states has stopped having big ideas debates. >> it has. i mean look at this election, and how it is squaring up, both presidential candidates, well the president and his -- and

mitt romney both are starting on the premise that anybody who talks of american decline doesn't know what they are talking about. >> rose: the president has said it almost in those words. >> he said it almost verbatim in the state of the union. >> rose: right. >> and while i understand the politics of saying that he doesn't want to be a jimmy carter, malaise speech kind of president, it is a false premise on which to start, coming clean with the american -- >> rose: tell me what -- give me what you would think was a smart thing for the president to do and to be on the side of what? >> i would suggest something, i am not a political consultant, but i would suggest that america needs a marshall plan for the middle class. it needs a very, very big, pretty far reaching retraining, reskilling, of the competitiveness of the american labor force. what we have right now is incremental proposals from the president that stand no chance of getting enacted. now if you are not going to get them enacted you might as well

propose what needs to be done. if it is all hypothetical, let the electric choose, let the electorate decide do we need to be reskilled, is globalization a problem? could it be an opportunity again? that kind of grandiosity, and i mean that in the nonpejorative way, that kind of big stage politics is something obama was good at in '08 and has shrunken to something very different. >> the interesting think thing about the president in 2008, is that he proved we admire intelligence, color free, nonbart san ship. he called on instincts we believed in. >> he was an affirmation of the best side of america. people felt what had happened to brand america. in the last -- in the preceding eight years. 2012 is a very different proposition. and i don't see the president

yes matching up to it and i don't see mitt romney matching up to it, and neither are actually talking in ambitious terms. and you have to respond to a big crisis with big solutions,. >> rose: the book is called time to start thinking america in the age of descent, thank you. >> thank you very much. >> rose: back in a moment, stay with us. >> rose: rans elects a new president on sunday after a tightly contested first round two weeks ago, president nikolai sarkozy is in a runoff against the socialist challenge her, the, challenger, he has maintained his lead in the polls, joining me tonight is corinne narassiguin a socialist candidate to represent french citizen whose live in the united states and canada, her opponent in the election, he spoke here last month. >> this election is so important for franchise france, because it is the crisis in the world, with

sarkozy, we are fighting against a crisis since four years now, and i don't want my country stopped this policy, because it would be terrible for france. >> rose: i am pleased to have corinne narassiguin at this table to talk about how she sees the french election, welcome. >> thank you for inviting me. >> rose: you would respond by saying what about what in election is about and why it is important to france. >> of course it is important to france because the situation is very difficult, because there is a world crisis with the economy and especially in europe, with the euro, it is important for europe as well. i think the countries in europe, all of the countries in europe are looking at this election also because it may change, it will change i think the

direction of economic policy in europe, and the strategy for european union in the coming years. >> rose: how would it change french policy? >> it will change french policy drastically because we have seen over the past few years wale over the past ten years and it has been -- i it has worsened or the past five years it seems like here actually we have seen a middle class that has shrunk, that has become much poorer and we have seen a top one percent that actually has been very protected by the current president still, and we have seen, because of this, i think, we have seen a recession or an economic crisis that has done a lot of damage for the middle class, and that is why we need, i think, fiscal reform and we need a different strategy for the economy. >> rose: france has had strong

tradition of a powerful role by the state. >> yes. >> rose: how will he lan change that in any way? >> well, it is true that on the left and on the right traditionally, french citizens expect a lot more from the government than here. >> rose: right. >> and i think this is upon to most european countries, i think. maybe even more so in france. but through ten years now of continuous right wing government and especially over the past five years, we have actually seen less government, we have seen healthcare coverage has become more expense stiff, we have seen an education system that also has weakened, public education system that has weakened. and these are fundamental, i think, for recovery on the

long-term to make sure that we have social justice, that we have, we invest in education, that everybody has access close to home to quality healthcare. so this is also important for the recovery. it is not just economic policies. and i think we need to shift in these types of policies as well and this is what we would bring with the left wing government. hopefully next week. >> rose: some in the -- mr. sarkozy's party will argue he has a very good relationship with merkel, and that makes a difference for tans because it puts france in partnership with trying to solve europe's problems. >> well, i am not so sure the relationship between mr. sarkozy and merkel was so good at the beginning anyway in the first two years, it wasn't that easy. it has been there in the past

several years because i sar koci has pretty much freed with everything that germany wanted over the past couple of years without too much -- >> rose: and elan will not. >> and elan will not? >> so there is a difference definitely this policy because he wants to propose a growth pac for the european union on top of the budget, the, the back of fiscal responsibility that already, the treaty has already been signed, so there might be, there might be differences in policy with germany, but mr. ela in is very well-known in france to be a pragmatic consensus builder, so i think he will find the way to negotiate with germany. >> rose: but h he had no experience in government. >> that's true. but he was a party leader for a very long time and associated with a lot of the decisions made by the french government during the years '97 to 2002, when we

had -- we actually had a socialist prime minister. and he also has been elected as the french national assembly for a very long time, it is not like he is new in politics. and as i said, i think it is just his personality is one that -- he is a very steady person and knows where he wants to go, i think he has shown that in the debate last night, and he is somebody who as i said is very pragmatic and looks and listens to everyone before trying to find the smartest compromise, the smartest agreement, and so i am not worried about this. >> rose: will the lapin voters be influential in this election? >> yes. obviously lupin -- may -- which is very, very high, actually the highest score we have ever had for the national

front in french presidential election, i think it shows a lot of anger, with the situation that france is in currently, the economic situation especially, and so i am not sure, we will see, i am not sure to what extent this is really a vote that was in agreement with all of the thesis are made especially regarding immigration in europe, it might be very much a signal that we need to act. >> rose: that's a good point. how does mr. alan and sar koci differ on immigration? >> well, mr. sar koci has changed a lot over the years and i think right now, he is suddenly because of, unfortunately because of really good results in the first round

he has been trying to get the votes from the far right and he has been saying, making statements that are difficult to accept, i think, especially because they are very different from what he was saying a few years ago, he says he wants to cut immigration by half, which is completely unrealistic in terms of actually the economic situation and also just respecting international laws in terms of asylum and in terms of families, you know, allowing families to be grouped together, people who already live in france and want to have family members come over, so it is going to be very difficult for him, it is right now he is just trying to please the far right and talking about getting out of the agreement that is about the treaty about open borders in europe. this is a huge step backwards. >> rose: thank you for coming. >> thank you very much. >> rose: we will all be watching on sunday to see what

happens. >> #02: thanks. >> rose: thanks for joining us, see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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