>> welcome to our program, tonight all about golf with one of the great golf teachers of our time, butch harmon. >> one of the things people ask me all the time, do you have a system or a method. and i say no, i treat everyone as an individual. i don't have a system or a method. i say that there is one thing that i do try and do and i learned this from my father, is i try not to take a away what you do naturally. i just try and improve. i don't want to take a swing because i think this swing is the modern swing, it looks the bestment i want to put this in your body. that's not possible. i have to allow to you do the things you do naturally but just make sure those are done a little better or the club is on the right path. >> butch harmon for the hour next. >> funding for charlie rose was provided by the following

captioning sponsored by rose communications

from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. is here, widely considered one of the top golf instructors in the world if not the best. golf die guest has named him the best golf teacher in america for 12 straight years from golf digest. his students are some of today's brightest stars including phil mickelson, earnie els, from 1993 to 2004 he coached tiger woods, woods won eight grand slam events during that period. he shares the lessons of a lifetime in butch harmon about golf. this is a dvd part of this in which he talks about what he has learned, introduces you to the players he has coached and at the same time gives you a sense of the game. so for all those reasons and his re-- remarkable experience i'm pleased to have him here for the first time. >> pleasure to be here. >> rose: i want to us look at this book. this is called the pro,

lessons about golf and life from my father claude harmon senior. what did he teach. >> you know, i think pretty much everything i know about the game started with my father. my father was so far ahead of his time. he was a club pro that won a major championship, he won the masters in 1948, the last club pro to ever win a major championship. >> a wing foot. >> and a seminal down in palm beach. and he was a person that was a great player, a great teacher, great innovater. de so many things teaching age before there was teaching age, using film before there was film or individual havio. he had this insight and this way of dissect wag was wrong with someone that made everything so simple. an i think one of the reasons myself and pie three younger brothers have all been successful as instructors is growing up in our family. watching our father the way he taught, the way he handled different people, it didn't matter whether you were ben hoggan his best

friend. it didn't matter whether you were henry ford, it didn't matter whether you were just a normal person. he had this able to communicate unlike anyone i've ever seen. and i think i take everything that i do from that learning as a youngster. >> rose: now am i correct, he actually taught president kennedy? president eisenhower. >> uh-huh. >> rose: i mean it was a range of people without sought him out. >> actually, i think i you go to kennedy, eisenhower, nixon, ford and on through until my father passed away in '89. he spent the whole time with many of the presidents, with many of the heads of industry. >> rose: what do you think made him great. >> i think my fathers with a person that people liked to be around. he had a very gregarious and outgoing personality. he treated everyone the same. you could be the president of the united states. you could be working in a factory and you come to be with him. that was fine with him because you loved golf. and golf was the tool that he used in his life. and he loved it so much and

he loved being around people that liked it that he had this ability to make everybody feel relaxed. and he also was so good at what he did, everyone seemed to improve when they came to him. >> rose: so did you inherit this or learn this. >> i think both. i think it is in my genes. and i also think i learned it from watching pie dad. it's funny i have three younger brothers who are all very successful in the golf business. and years ago we were filming a thing for the golf channel at wing foot and in the grill room at wing to the and this older gentleman came up to us and said you foe i thought your father was really hard on you when you were young. i thought he crossed its line a few time its. and my brother dick looked at him and said he was hard on us but he must have done something right because we all turned out pretty good. it was interesting. >> rose: but at the moment it wasn't evident that it would turn out that way for you. you went to the bottom. >> i was the rebel of the family, so to speak. if someone told me it was black, it was white. i don't know, i had this

ability or inability to not like authority. i went to the university of houston on a skip. didn't even stay there a month. quit, went in the service. ended up in vietnam war. vietnam veteran which i'm very proud that i did that for my nation. i went around 1979 and '80 to the lowest point of my life. i was divorced. i drank too much, gambling. i was as bad as you could get, i hit rock bottom. and i think when i hit rock bottom the thing that saved me was my family, pie father and brothers. they came to my rescue. my brother dick especially who unfortunately passed away five years ago. >> rose: and dick had move in with you. >> he said you come to houston, get in your car, move to me, i will find you a jobment you have to get your head out of your you know what. and i did. >> rose: he got you driving a -- >> he saved pie life. i went to work building golf courses, driving little dozers and tractors, worked

pie tail off. the thing i think that saved me is that i have always been a workaholic. and i think even in my downtime when i hit rock bottom, i realized that i had to get pie head out of my you know what, and the fact that i am a workaholic helped me be that way. >> rose: so what did you say at his eulogy, his funeral. >> i had a hard time talking. i told my brother billy you better go before me. i said because dick was so hard-- i will tell you what billy said first because it's hilarious. billy gets up there. we didn't know what bill is going to sayment he is the youngest one, in this church in houston is just packed, there is like 1800 people in there and everybody is crying and soning because pie younger brother dick was so loved by everyone. he was such a wonderful man. and billy kind of paused for a minute and he had tears. he goes, you know, i know exactly what dad said to dick when he walked in to heaven and everybody kind of looked up. dad looked at dick and said dick, how did butch screw up that tiger woods deal.

and i mean the whole church just cracked up. and it was the post beautiful thing because it got everybody celebrating dick's life for how good he was. well, what i said when i got up there is that i couldn't have stood before you today, the person i am, the success i am if it wasn't for my little brother. >> rose: he was there for me. >> he was there for me more than i could ever, ever begin to tell you. >> rose: so let me ask you this. how could you screw up the tiger woods thing? >> well, the tiger wods thing was very interestingment i started with tiger when he was 17. his father earl brought him to me. hi just got a lot of recognition because greg norman had won the british open in '93. and hi done a revamp on greg's swing and earl kind of enjoyed the things that he had seen in that. and tiger was in houston where i wasment i was director of a golf club in houston. and he had just lost a match in the u.s. amateur that was player of the champions, last match he would ever

lose in the amateur championships because he went on to win three in a row after that and he brought him over one day. i still have the tape. i would love to show it to you. as a matter of fact there is film on that video of that tape from 1993, the first time i ever saw this little 17-year-old kid. and earl and i -- >> as a rachlt we had a little bond because he is a vietnam veteran and i was a vietnam veteran. and neither one of us had much of a filter. we pretty much say what we think at all times good or bad. and it was an interesting day to watch this young kid, first of all people say did you see his talent. yeah, it was unbelievable, his natural talent. it wasn't polished. the talent wasn't polished but you could see-- . >> rose: that hand-eye accord facial. >> it was just beyond belief what codo. and i remember asking him, i said tiger i have watched you fit balls now for about 15 anyones and we talked about a couple things. i said tell me, when you get to a hole where you absolutely have to drive the ball in the fairway, every great player has a little shot, most will tee it down low and they will chase a little draw out there or they will hold one off and hit it out of the neck with

a little fade just to make sure the ball gets in the fairway. i say what do you do in pressure situations when you have to hit one in the fairway. i was trying to find out what was going in the mind. he said i just tee it up and hit it hard as i can and wherever it goes i hit it again. at the time i thought this is a brash little young guy to come up with something like that but the more i got to know him, that was what he did. he just pegged it and let it rip. and he had no fear. wherever if went, he was going go find it. he had this great creative mind and ability to move the ball all over the place. and i thought to myself wow, with that ability, and that much confidence in himself this kid could really be something special and we went on from there to have some wonderful time and great success. >> rose: why did it end? >> i think it ended as equipment changed. for example, in the year 2000 which i think is the best year anyone has ever had in 340d earn golf. he won three major, nine win, scoring average of 67. and change. he hit 72% of his fairways that year and was the second longest hitter on the tour, john daly is the longest

that is incredible. plus his short game was phenomenon. >> and coputt. >> he could really putt, even better than nicholas in his prime which i never thought i would ever see. and graphite came in and everybody started hitting it further and he wanted, he drove with a short driver. it was a 43 and 3/4 inch steel shafted titleus driver. >> he is about 6, 1. and everybody started using 45 inch drivers or 46 inch drivers in graphite and everybody started hitting it further. and he wanted to change. and i was of the belief if it's not broken why would we fix it. >> no one has ever done what you have just done. and this was at the end of 2001. and we kind of got in a little discussion about that. and i am a very blunt person. and tiger was very blunt. and then as 2002 came along we kind of just, he said you know i kind of would like to go my own way and try other things. i said that's fine. i mean i have no regrets at all. >> rose: here is the perception among some people. >> uh-huh. >> rose: he was resentful of the fact that butch harmon

was out there making a lot of his role in tiger's success. >> well, butch harmon was a success long before tiger woods came along. i took greg norman to number one in the world. butch harmon had been out there with a lot of players before tiger woods. a lot of success with davis love a lot of success. >> rose: there was no resentment on the part of tiger. >> he never expressed that to me. i have read that, where people have sur pieced that. but he himself never expressed that nor did his father. >> rose: can he return to that form? >> i done think so. i'm not sure anyone can return to what he did in 2000. he totally-- . >> rose: because of the social things and mechanical. >> there are all kinds of things. first of all the players are so much better. the young players are so much better. second he has had four knee surgeries. the knee i don't care how many surgeries you had is not as strong as it used to be. equipment has changed, completely changed am tiger's body has changed. he's much bigger and

stronger than he was there. >> rose: i think he has gone through a couple changes. he bulked up a lot in the by accepts and chest and that hurt him a little bit. he toned that down a little bit. now this is just my opinion. i still think he can be one of the greatest players in the game but i don't think anyone can dominate the way he did. >> rose: he did. not only did he dominate he intimidated. >> he doesn't have that any more. the intimidation factor is gone. the young kids out here, roy mcelroy and kids all over the world weren't here in '99 and 2000. >> rose: phil mickelson was here. >> but phil has dealt with the problem. he has dealt with the problem and accepted it and actually loves the challenge. but if you look at what went wrong, take a great player, ernie els, who is an phenomenal player. in 2000 when tig her that great the year i i think earnie finished secretary six of those nine wins and it demoralize him. davis love the same thing. and phil to a point at that time. and i think it takes a strong person not to think

that wayment but having said that, now we have so many good young players that aren't intimidated by anything. they come right out of college, look you right in the eye and say i will kick your tail-out there today, i done care who are you. >> rose: you know what else, all kind of instructors. they have golf instructors, personal trainer, cole gists, a whole range of people. >> in all honesty there are too many people a lot of these players have am i think in my business. >> rose: like a pose of people. >> in my profession i think we get too much credit when someone plays good. and i think we get too much criticism when someone prays bad. >> rose: but did tampering with the swing because tiger is a perfectionist, of which i admire. >> me too. >> rose: has that in a sense diminishing returns? >> i think we maybe seeing some of that now. and the reason i say now because i think what has happened off course to him would disturb anyone, everything that he's been through. i'm not making excuse force

it he brought that on himself, he created that. >> rose: it's so different for him because he was so high up in terms of -- >> and the way he was thought of. >> rose: of awe. >> and i think when you get knocked off that pedestal and you realize that people look at you differently, all of a sudden your confidence level goes a little. >> rose: it is interesting you say this, because it really suggests it is not just the loss of endorsements, it's the loss of how you people feel about you. >> of course it it is. and the other side of that. the two most famous american players in the last say 20 years are have been tigerwoods and phil mickelson. they are completely opposite personalities. the way the public perceives both of them completely opposite. phil mickelson is a very outgoing person with a fans am you have seen it in tournaments am he spends time. will spend an hour after a turn testimony signing autographs and stuff. where tiger doesn't really do that. now tiger's people will tell you it is a safety thing with a crowd and stuff and i'm not saying that's right or wrong am but the perception of the two is different. >> rose: you know him, he doesn't like to do it.

>> he probely doesn't like to do it. but having said that, the people now when he was winning everything, never paid any attention to that. they never looked at any of that. since he has not been winning for the last few years and he's struggled with his game because he is going through yet again another fix, i think that the people look at the two of them differently. and mickelson has become far and away the post popular of the american players because of that. because of the way he is with the people. now knowing tiger the way i few him, i can't say i know him now because he's not the same young man that i knew, it's just not his nature to be that way. i mean he's not that outgoing type of person like phil is. a lot of people would tell you that they think phil mickelson is a phoney because they think no one can smile all the time and give little kids balls. he's just doing it to get publicity. and i'm here to tell you that not true. >> rose: you coach him right now. >> and i know this man very well. this young man is a very good human being. and he loves people. and he's the first one to tell you, he wouldn't page the amount of money he makes

if it wasn't for tiger woods. tiger woods is the one that has helped him become who he is. it is very interesting. >> rose: a little bit like arniement we did a conversation and i just love him. >> how can you not. >> rose: you know. and somebody had said when i went up there, you know, every golfer who followed arnold palmer should give him 20% of their earnings because he made the game. >> absolutely. absolutely. he, arnold palmer when dwight eisenhower was president, president put a putting green on the white house lawn. tv started doing golf. and arnold was superman. and he did, for any of us that have made a lot of money. >> rose: and jack kennedy had lessons from your father. >> yeah. >> rose: sent a video of himself and his swing to arnie to take a look at this. >> and arnold, well, phil mickelson is a modern day an ol palmer, the way he plays golf and with the fans am but there is only one arnold palmer. >> rose: back to ken dwee for a poment. did your dad play with him. >> yes, actually my father said that president kennedy probably could have been the best of all the presidents

playing golf but his back was so bad from his war injuries that it kept him-- . >> rose: but he had the smoothest swing. >> he said he had the best swing of any of the presidents. >> rose: and other than him who has been the best. >> of the players? >> yeah. >> rose: who probably would you say. >> actually the one without doesn't get the credit might be gerald ford because gerald ford hit the ball a long ways and all you remember in the bob hope desert classic is mr. ford hitting a spectatorment if you line the fairway, charlie with 10,000 people and you teed off, are you going to hit some spectators. >> rose: gerald ford was a very good athlete. >> yes, he was a long hitter am but he could play golf. >> rose: tell me what you do. what makes butch harmon butch harmon. >> well, i wear a lot of hats. teaching obviously is my passion. i think everyone believes that i only teach famous tour players. i spefernt the pas jority of my time teaching with the average player. i have academies all over the world in dubai and macao, florida and my headquarters

in las vegas but i spend post of my time with the average player. i do television for sky port spos, i have for 16 years as a lead analyst. i do all the major championships and big events. i have a great passion for troops first foundation where i do a lot of thing trs for disabled veterans which i spent a lot of my time and effort of that, as a vietnam veteran i am so proud to have had the opportunity to help these kids in anyway, shape and form am i have my corporate work with my sponsors with roll exand wind grips and jma services. titleist which i do a lot of work with, and the most wonderful family. i have a great wife christie and a wonderful 17-year-old and two great dogs and there's all my time. >> rose: let's talk about some of the great players. take phil mickelson. he called you later in life, what, three or four years ago. >> '07. >> rose: saying what? >> phil has never been a great driver. he has always been loud. he lost the u.s. open in wing foote because he

couldn't find a fairway. >> rose: suppose he had taken a three wood. >> yeah, but that's not his nature. did you ask arnold palm their question at the olympic club when he lost the-- coming down the strep. that is how they play. he said, you know, the thing i have always admired about your students is they're all pretty much long hitters but they all drive the ball very well am you took greg norman and made him the greatest driver in the world am i look at davis love the way he drives the ball and he says i have always admired the way tiger drove the ball and i need to learn to drive the ball better. >> rose: so do i. >> we all do. if you look at phil mickelson's stats you say he hadn't really driven the ball any better but he has drive ten light years better because he used to business the fairway way out here. when he misses a fairway now it's to the by very far and can play. now he's aggressive. and he's an aggressive player like arnold was. he's not the tactician that say nicholas was or hoggan was, or even tiger. tiger learned how to win tournaments from the lead because he-- i tried to

teach him as a young kid at the majors are the easiest to win when you have the lead because they have to come get you. if you don't make any mistake these have to push an are you going to win. phil has this go for everything attitude. but i have to say, in our years together now he is getting more conservative in how he plays. he's not jumping off the ground trying to hit it out of sight all the time and i would never want to take his aggressive play away from him. i just like to see him real it back occasionally and he's getting better. >> rose: he has had heartbreaking losses because of that. >> yes, he has. >> rose: heartbreaking losses. >> but you win that way too. when he won the masters that shot. >> rose: so how did you help him drive. what did you teach him? >> well, his lower body was all over the place. if you remember phil's swing, his legs and hip mrs. all over the place. he was never stable coming into the shots so the first thing i worked on was trying to stabilize his lower body. the big key was on the back swing for him his left knee would lock and his slip was slide to the left. so he had to keep the flex.

>> rose: lied slide like that. >> he would go that way. and as he would do that he would reroute the club. >> he would reroute the club, get real long, way past parallel, reroute the club underneath him then his leg was go all over and he had a twoway miss am you can't play golf with a two way miss am you can play golf with a one way miss because you can play around it. >> rose: . >> you can play around it. >> rose: you can adapt. >> you can try and eliminate one side of a fairway or another and get around a golf course. the first one i had to do was stabilize his lower body. as i stabilized his lower body, quieted his footwork. didn't let him lift his front foot on the back swing, for him his right foot because the more he lifted it the more he put it down and we always put it down in a different place thachls kind of stabilized it a little. by stabilizing the back leg, by keeping the flex in it didn't allow him to overrotate because he's very flexible which put him in a better position at the top and i had to get him a little wider at the top meaning i wanted his left hand instead of being in here by his head i wanted him to get further away from

his head so his arm kos get if front of his body. >> because that gives you -- >> it just makes the arc bigger. >> rose: if arc is bigger didn't it give you more club head speed. >> yes, but it also ets will you get your arms in front of the body. the narrower. as we were taught, are just a little older than i am. as we were taught to try and down koch the club coming down to create this and sole we could get some speed, well that was because we played with wooden clubs and softballs and had to throw it in the air. >> rose: you teach now. >> with modern equipment you have to get your arms back in front of your body and match your rotation of your body and your arms together. and that actually generates more club head speed than we did the old way you and i were taught. >> rose: there's all kinds of things am people talk about in terms of swing. they always talk about some sense of changing the swingment look at tiger for a moment. you famously recently said what tiger needs to do is forget teachers. >> i agree with that 100

percent. he needs to get on the driving range, what ben hoggan said, you need to get back in the dirt. >> rose: how do i do this. >> dig it out of the dirt. just get in the dirt. >> rose: i always assume he just meant practice but he means something else. >> but practice with a purpose. see tiger woods is, to me, jack nicklaus is the greatest champion i think ever played our game. >> rose: because. >> he has won 18 majors. >> rose: that is how you major. what made him that. >> i think because he was so smart. i think because he had the ability to create and he also had the ability to control his mind. that's why i say he's the greatest champion that he of lived he won more. tiger woods is the greatest player i have ever seen play golf. i have never seen anyone play golf at the level he played at. and for me to think that tiger woods greatness is lost now because he needs to change his swing again just go on the range. just go on the range, put your balls down, hit some draw, some high draw, low draw, fade, move the ball up and down in flight. you're tiger woods for gosh sake. i know you can do it, just

go do it. >> rose: why don't you think he believes that? >> well, only cotell us that. and we don't know. >> rose: because you know people who know him. >> my opinion is that tiger, one of the reasons that makes all great athletes great is they are stubborn. and all athletes are stubborn. i think he's so you born that the more people say you can't do it this way, the more he's determined to show you yes, i can. now that's just my opinion. i done know if that's true or notment i would like to see him go to the range and hit 3w5u8s. because don't you think, carlie, are you a great student of the game, great watcher of the game. i think he looks very robotic. i think he looks very robotic when he plays now and he never looked that way. >> rose: i mean. he reads, he must know that you have said this. he believes in sean foley. he believes sean foley is doing something for him. >> he has to. you have to believe the instructor you are with. if you are a great athlete in any sport, you is can be a pitcher, a hitter, a quarter back and you decide

to go to a co change your mi chan -- mechanics, you better believe 100 percent what that person is telling you, because if you are not you are wasting your time. i think he does believe. >> rose: but he's gone from you to hank hainey to sean foley. >> uh-huh. >> you know,s who tow's to say, an i will tell you this, of the three of us, an all of us are very good at what we do, i had the easiest job. because i got him young. >> exactly. >> i got him when he was a teenager. and elise ened more than those days. then he probably does now. but that was then, this is now. >> but what you talked of, if you had to fix most people's drive, what -- i mean are there variety of problems they have or are there certain fundamentals that people errors that people commit and i'm talking about not just-- i'm talking about people that are, that play the golf in the range of 70 to 80. >> modern daytimes, everyone talks about distance.

everyone is enamoured with distance. every golf tournament you watch that is all the announcers talk about, is distances these players hit the ball. you and i, at our age we want to hit the ball farther. we when a manufacturer comes out with a new driver guaranteed to hit two and a half yards further we airlift it in we need to play with that thing. the average player and especially the average player needs to forget about distance because each and every one of cuss only hit it so far. the key is to get the maximum out of your ability. and how you do that is hit the ball in the middle of the club head consistency with the club on the rightate where you can get a square impact there are a lot of ways to get there. the hall of fame is full of strange swings but coming into the ball somewhere the consistency has to be. >> to repeat and repeat. >> modern equipment allows to you hit the ball farther and straighter. the ball does not curve as much as it used to with older equipment. but everyone's jumping off the ground, swinging as hard as they can in case they hit it. i tell most of my players, it's funny people tell me

all the time am you have this secret to distance. look at how far all your players hit it. everyone you teach, they are long. i say i have-- . >> rose: like johnson. >> i say i have made them all shorter because i want them to hit the ball in the fairway. i have done that with phil, with dustin johnson and with a young man gary woodland who may be the longest of all of them. i have tried to real them back a little to utilize the fact that yes, you can hit the ball far but if you can play from the short grass more often, are you going to get a lot better. you and i want to hit it further so we go get a 46 inch driver with a big old graphite shaft and unless your timing is perfect, are you actually to the going to hit it any further. will you hit it shorter. >> rose: but if you can hit it straight and 27 yards are you okay. >> if you and i could hit it straight and 275 yards, we would win a lot of nationals. >> rose: with a good roll. >> we would win-- . >> rose: which brings me to this. and this is about all athletes but you foe golfers. take those that have been at the top, let's take hogan,

sneed nicholas, tiger woods, phil mickelson, palmer, obviously. did they all have something that was beyond the effort they need. how much is at the defined as simply some special raw talent? that somebody saw when they were young in tiger's case his father, and honed and got them on the track to building on this advantage they had from the beginning. >> well, one advantage all of them had is the good lord gave them a tremendous amount of natural talent, tremendous amount of natural talent. now the difference between the hoggans and sneeds and nelsons, they were pretty much self-taught. that is why you see, you put trevino and arnold in there too because their swings are very unusual. and i say this all the timement you realize -- >> because trevino taught himself. >> but still the swing was a little different. >> you know, jack was different. he had the right elbow, jack worked with jack nicklaus. modern day players all look

the same because they have been the recipient of good instruction through the years. >> rose: and so much of it is video, youtube, wherever. >> but the thing that changes is what is if here. all great athletes, i don't care what sport it is, we're going to talk about golf v this desire to get better and they have this desire to beat you. and they have 100 percent belief in themselve. they have this killer instinct. they can be the nicest person in the world but when they go in between those rope force four and a half hours they want to cut your heart out. they will have a drink with you afterwards but at that point in time they are totally focused on what they do. the two best at focusing were hogan and nicholas. i mean they had blinders on. they just could get in there, little mode and they could go, trevino had to talk all the time. that was how he released his nervous energy. >> rose: chicago rodriguez. >> but he wasn't quite as good but the same way. and then you have player, who was just this world traveler, a little bity guy at 5 foot 7 maybe who just worked his tail off to show

everybody he was good. >> rose: and physically. >> he was the first one, frank stranahan was the first one then player came along. then you throw tom watson in there who was phenomenal. he just had this ability. they all had this ability, charlie to reach down inside, and produce when it absolutely has to happen. my father used to have a great line and i've always tried to tell my players this, look, all the work we do i don't care if it works on the range, or, it has to work on the back nine on sundayment when are you coming down the stretch and everything is on the line that is when you have to deliver. my dad used to have a saying, he said i will tell you when you know a guy who can really play. when it is sunday afternoon, it's the 15th hole, and that red light on that tv camera is burning a hole right in his forehead and he knows it's burning that hole in his forehead and he just rips it down the fairway. that's pie guy. that's the guy that can play. >> and those that have t you can-- how about bubba watson. >> well, bubba watson is an interesting case because he's kind of a throwback to

many, many years ago. has no teacher. he taught himself to play in his backyard with a wiveel ball that is why he curves the ball so much. as you know, and maybe the people watching the show may not know. it's not easy to curve the modern balls as much as he curves them. you can do it in the older days with the wooden club. >> so he had to have to win the masters. >> there is probably he had been hitting wive el balls when he was six years old may aid difference. >> i think it made a huge difference. there are probably only two or three people that played the game that could hit that shot, mickelson i think made it. and i think selfy could have made it. >> they may be the only three that i know that could even attempt it. >> rose: he is an interesting carry, the late selfy. >> the two regrets i have on the video when i sat down with the great players that i taught that unfortunately self-ie passed away. because i did a lot of work with sevy and-- was you know -- those are the two that i wish hi gotten on there. >> rose: s he continues to

place at the masters. >> well, he loves it. he loves the masters. the masters augusta national is a unique place. it requires more than just playing golf. it requires a phenomenal sort game because will you miss greens there and the slopes and stuff on those greens are incredibly severe. the grass is-- mowed so tight around the greens. >> rose: inches will kill you. >> without a doubt. you sell dom shoot at a shot, at a fragment you shoot at a position on the green, the ball goes to the flag. so you have to have a wonderful short gamement you have to have ingredable imagination on how are youing to hit shots. and then you have to embrace that, that that is part of what you need to be there because that golf course is one of the only ones in the world that you have to play like that. and players like ol that beo, sevy, jack, arnold, tiger, they go there like-- and even though he only won once, fred couples look how well he plays when he goes there. he was leading. because he drives down

magnolia lane and something happens. oh my gosh, i love this place. i love everything about t i play so well here. i have had such great success here. and it builds up inside of them. i mean even though bubba watson won the masters this year and you have to take your hat off to him because he won it,-- didn't lose continuation he want out and won it. and to this day mickelson will tell you i just knew i was going to win the masters this year. i knew i was. i knew i was when i drove in on monday. i knew i was on sunday morning when i went to the practice tee. doggone it it just didn't happen but i knew i was going to win. those guys who have had success there that is how they feel. >> rose: do you think tiger still feels that. >> you bet he does. >> rose: next tournament i'm going to break through. >> i think that tiger woods, you asked me this question the other day, will he break jack nicholson's-- nicholas record, i don't think so we have to win five more against this crop of players with would be difficult. but i think will win another

major an i think will be the master. >> rose: do you think if he hadn't had the injury and the episode that brought so much pressure on him that he would have. >> oh, yes, if you would asked me this question three, four years ago would tiger woods break anything nicholas's record i would have thought we have done it by to you, to be honest. the injury i don't know how much that played into it. he won the open with a broken leg. we foe he can withstand pain and handle things. >> rose: he has all the willpower you need. >> without a doubt. in my years with him he won a lot of tournaments when he was injured that we never toll anybody about because he just has great tolerance for pain. >> rose: did a lot of that come from his father. >> probably. probably from the way his dad was. >> rose: he has a mental edge during the best of the years. >> without a doubt. >> rose: he was mentally more tough than anybody around. and they all knew. >> i tell you how he got it rrz his father had made him. >> i tell you how he got it at an early age and this is interesting. everybody knows he won six.

is events in a row, three juniors, three amateur, he won six in a row. what you done know is that all six of those victory, in the final match to win, went to the last hole, or beyond, and he won every single one of them. he didn't know how he was going to do it you about he knew i was going to do it. >> rose: is there that much difference, when you talk to, when you are correcting, i have a hard time understanding how a great player, what you can do for them. i mean you can help them see how they have slid into a mistake. or something that they have never done before that are you going to teach them how to do. >> let me explain it to you in a way that everyone can understand it. great players a lot of times don't know exactly what they are doing in their swing. they think, they feel it they will say to you, okay, i hit this bad shot because i did this and you say no, actually you didn't. really, that tape you just show it, oh, really, i did.

>> but at the same time one time i heard tiger i this is a that and i don't want him to say he didn't say it but that basically one of the things he wanted to do, because i think hogan knew this, is to know where the club was at every moment. >> know where the club faces at every moment. >> that was something i talked to him a lot about. it goes back to my father. my father was such a good player and didn't practice much in his older years and always played good. i used to say dad, how are you getting up in age now, late 50s, early 60s and you still go out and play pretty good. he goes i always know where the club face is when i'm swinging, i know if it is open i have to catch up. i know it is shortcoming down. >> is that just experience. >> i think it is an individual thing that has a great knowledge of the golf swing and can feel it and i try to teach tiger that at a young age and tiger used to be able to save shots. you hear him talk about i get talk all the-- stuck all the time. he gets stuck because other than ben hoggan he has the fastest unwind of a body i have ever seen in high life. >> rose: what does that mean. >> your lower body outruns

your arms, and your arms are back behind you. tiger wood's body was the fastest body i had ever seen since ben hoggan, faster than everyone. but if the club would get stuck he had the ability to save it with his hand, he could save it with his hands all the time. and what happens to great golfers, this is, people will say to me all the time, how can so-and-so go from playing so good and then instantly play so bad. well good players especially ones that have a smoother rhythm, can play from bad positions. because they can feel it and they can catch up. and they may go three or four weeks and may win a turn testimony, contend in tournaments and feel like they are playing pretty good and each week this is getting a little worse and a little worse but they are catching up and timing it. and all of a sudden they can't catch up and boom they miss a cut. >> we all want to benefit from somebody that can tell us how to see things we can't see ourselves. but the thing that you most want to do is make sure that your own naturalness, your

own sense of athletic, athleticism is not suffocating because are you so preoccupied with a thousand things in your brain. >> one of the things people ask me all the time, do you have a system are or a meth. i said no, i treat everyone as an individual. i done have a system or a method. i say that there is one thing that i do try and do and i learned this from my father. is i try not to take away what you do naturally. i just try and improve on it i don't want to take a swing because i think this swing is the modern swing t looks the best and i want to put that in your body. that's not possible. i have to allow to you do the things you do naturally but just make sure those are done a little better or the club is on the right path. give you a perfect example. people say to me all the time with does tin johnson if you look his club face is shut at the top and his left wrist like that he says aren't you going to change him and get him in this positionment i say coy get him in this position but he couldn't break 80. this is how he plays this is why it impacts like david duval played from that their eye line is down the fairway

as they clear their body out of the way and they can hold and they are strong. they hold his left rest. when does tin johnson first came a few years ago i said look, i don't want to you think that i'm going to change this shut position at the top because that's how you play it. i have seen this before. he said yeah, david duval played that way. i say no, my father played that way. i said i have seen somebody play good. >> just like that. >> pie dad was like at the top and put it right there. >> never came down. >> but never lost that position. that is why he hit it so good. >> one of the talents people teach now is it is really letting your body bring it around. it's all about your body. and less about what you do with your arms. >> well, it's team work. i mean the only hold we have on the club is with our hands. obviously our hands have to function in a swing am you have to sink up the arms and body together. yes, the torso has to rotate. but you can't rotate this too early and your arms are way back here or swing your arms and then your body goes am you have to sync them up.

and where the difficulty gets with the average player is flexibility. these tour players are flexible. they all work out, they stretch, they're in, they all have trainers who stretch them before each round. you and i run out to the course. we hit six ballsing go to the first tee. >> that's not me. you know, that's the average golfer, will you go pound for about an hour, good for you. >> because i think the best way to learn golf, you know, you get all the important lessons you can get but at the same time it's like most things. what i thought hoggan meant, it's in the dust. it's in the dirts. but you have to go, because you have to feel it. >> yeah. >> you want somebody like you to look and say you know, it's not what you think it is. you are doing something you don't realize are you doing. you want that but at the same time you want to feel what it's like or you have to hit it rightment and you only do that by hitting it and hitting it in the same way as basketball, is how many shots you take. >> yeah. >> michael jordan was the first man on the court for practice. >> and the last one to leave. >> yeah. larry bird was running the

steps in the boston garden before anybody even got there. >> exactly. >> getting in shape. but what you have to understand in golf, the average person, they come and take a lesson. 30 minute or an hour lesson. they go out and play t doesn't work, they throw it out. they go to someone else. when the greatest player in the world is telling you takes me 18 months to 2 years to feel comfortable with what i do and the average persons says to heck with that, i took a lesson, i should be good. you regress before you get better. >> but to go back to where you have to feel it you not only have to know what you did wrong when you hit a bad shot which is what everybody wants to know. you have to know what the heck are you doing right when are you hitting good shots. and no one thinks about that because when are you out playing well it's easement you just see the shot and you hit it. that is when you really need to understand why am i different today why is this soed goo. that goes to you what said about feeling and understanding where the club face is, and the club head is coming down, as i said earlier, the hall of fame has really bizarre swings

but from about right here to right there they are you will a the same. >> look at-- a lot of waste. >> you look at arnie. >> he will be, a lot of ways to get there. >> what do you think of stack and tell. >> i like stack and tilt for some players. i without use a little bit of a stack and tilt analogy for our viewers that don't know, your weight stays more on your front foot as you go back instead of a movement to the back. and as you come down you move on top of the ball and chase the ball out there more. if i have someone who is really sliding to the right or sliding off the ball i will have them hang on their left side. i have always been of the belief that your weight goes in the direction the club is going. and the way i like to think it. so if the club goes in this direction t doesn't mean i slide to the right being a right-handed player. it means i turn and my weight goes to the inside and my back leg. then as i come down my weight goes back forward and through. it's like throwing a ball. will you go back here to throw 9 ball. now stack and tilt, you stay

centered over the ball. you stay centered right over the top of the ball and it gives you good contact. it's a wonderful way to hit short irons. >> but not great for drivers. >> i wouldn't say it is bad because there are guys with stack and tilt that can hit pretty goodment are you to the going to hit it very far because everything stayed over here and you didn't have the ability to go back to go forward. >> putting. >> should be the easiest part of the game. >> you have got a whole -- >> oh, yeah. people say to me why dow say that, i say it's very interesting. i mean we're on a green. there's no lakes. there's no out of bounds, no sand traps. the swing is maybe this long. what goes wrong, right here. confidence. we lose confidence. people to me putting is-- i've been a good putter my whole life so it comes easy to me. but i simplify it i think for putting if i have got, every putt i hit is a straight putt. it can have six foot of right to left break but it's

straight to the line i need to start the ball on. i look at it that way. i think of just a little ruler or something just passed the ball testimony i can start the ball down that ruler, that line i want it on i have a good chance to make the putt if i have any speed at all. people go wrong with putting because it's confidence. you know yourself. there are days when you go out and the hole looks this big. and you just putt and you make everything. it feels so natural. if you like right to left putts every putt seems to be a right to left putt. the next day it looks like a thimble. there is no way you could get it in there. >> what is the difference. >> it's a mental thing. it's a feeling of maybe missing one or two putts at the start of a round and not having the confidence from then on. you know yourself, if you make a couple putts on the first couple holes your confidence level goes up, will you putt pretty good. you miss the three footer in the first hole and a six footer and you miss that, all of a sudden you get these negative vibes in your body. i'm not a psychologist so i can't tell yu that happens but it does happen. >> how is women's golf

doing. >> women's golf i think is doing well. i think the lpga has done a great job of marketing their players around the world. i wish they played more in the u.s. they seem to play nor outside the u.s., corporate sponsor wise so we don'tee them in the cry as much as much. the women golfers are really good athletes. the girls all hit the ball further. i think the average person in all honesty can learn more from watching the lpga than they can from watching. >> rose: because -- >> because they can relate to how far the girls hit the ball. because the average player doesn't hit the ball that much. they can relate to how they play and watch them play. but we don't do that. we want to go see, we want to be bubba watson. we want to hook that ball around. >> rose: what does he do, were 320, 315. >> he oh pie gosh, he can hit it as far as he wants to hits it. >> rose: why is that. >> he generates a lot of speedment but if you watch bubba watson if you watch him on film, if i showed you

his swing on tape and showed you how much he is up on his toes and feet are moving all over the place at impact. >> rose: all the things you told phil not to do. >> you would say this guy couldn't break 80. but he has the most wonderful hand-eye coordination of maybe anyone we've ever seen. because of where he is coming from, and the speed he is coming from to be able to create the way he does with his hands is phenomenal. it truly is phenomenal. >> rose: and so you ask the question, how does doe it. >> well, de it as he said earlier as a kid playing with a wive el ball. so what, in other words, here is-- let me simplify how you curve a ball. if i am going to hit a ball straight. >> rose: i would say that is -- >> straight is right to you, club faces square. to hook this ball to make it start to the right and go, the toe has to get to the ball before the heel. to slice the ball, the heel has to get to the ball before the toe. well bubba watson has the ability to do that, to make that club face do whatever angle. >> rose: john mcenroe has

the able to do that in tennis. >> exactly. and they talk about it. bubba watson can do it, may have the best hands of anyone that ever played. because if i showed you the position his body is in you would say there no way he could hit a shot but his hand-eye coordination is phenomenal. now i think that's why you will see bubba play really good, and play really not so goodment but when he's really good, it's fun to watch. >> rose: and if he is off, it is not funny. >> it is off. when are you hitting it that far, if you are off are you are going along with a off line. >> rose: you said adam scott has a sweet swing mechanically adam scott has fundamentally as good a swing as there is in golf. >> rose: what makes fundamentally as good. >> i think if you look at the positionsment if you look at the club face angle on the back swing and downswing am you look at the positions of the way the arms and body match up together there are some wonderful slow motion superslow motion on this tape of two modern golfers that i use, nick watney and adam scott. because to me they are the prototype of the modern breed the way they swing.

when you watch adam scott swing and the superslow motion that we have it in from all the angles, pretty much every position is textbook the way would you teach it. not everyone can do that. but he has done that. and it's interesting. when adam first started, first turned pro, he played a lot with tiger, because adam i first met adam he was a teenager going to unlv. and in 2000 he play a lot with tiger. and we always thought that -- >> tig wear come out to vegas to practice. >> and hang out. and adam's swing was very similar to tigers when i first saw him. everyone thinks i created that. i said no, that the way he came. when i saw hip as a teenager that is how he swung so we just enhanced it. and adam carried it and still has it to this day, in his computer, some film i took of tiger woods at 2000 at the grish open in st. andrews. he just won the us open at 15 and wins this by 8. i think mechanically it was as good as a club could be swung. and every position that he got it. >> when he looked at it.

adam used that as a modelment and he always used that. and i think today adam scott has fundamentally the best swing if the game. there is a lot more to playing golf than a swing as you well know but he with all, that is called job security for me. >> finally you got all these guys to talk. fredz couplesable ernie els, does tin johnson, phil mickelson, greg norman. adam scott, nick watney and tiger woods. >> uh-huh. >> rose: did you ask tiger, did you say. >> i asked every one of them. these are guys i have had a lot of success with. in my career. as i said only two i ever didn't get on there was sevy and jose. we couldn't do it in time restraints, ball striking, basic fundamentals, curvesing drills, specialty shots, short game, sand play, the second is putting, good to great that is when you see these guys selecting clubs and finally fit fitness in golf and kid, women and seniors. the greatest golf in the

world some say right now is a woman on the tour named sang. >> sme is, unbelievable. she wins everything she plays in. absolutely unbelievable. >> rose: she said to me in the end, i believe in two things. grip it and rip it. >> sounds like a female john daly. >> rose: or a female bubba watson. >> exactly. the neat ting about this tape and it was a big project. took a year to do it. a huge budget to do it with. i tried to put everything that i have learned in all my years of teaching so i can share that with the average person there are 250 tips in there, all kinds of drills an special things in there. and trouble shots. anything you could ever want to learn in golf, we tried to put in tlmment you don't have to watch the whole thing. it's two tapes, four hours but go to the different sections rdz it can help you. >> i think it can help anyone. it's really geared to the masses. >> rose: you can lock at this and say what i can learn here. >> yes. i would tell you you can learn anything that are you having a problem with in

your game you can learn it. because of the fact i try and make things very simple because that's how i teach. and i think people that have it will really like it. >> rose: i'm sorry i never got-- i would like to consider your friend, i'm sorry i never got to meet your father. >> would you lo have loved my father, he was a remarkable man. the greatest storyteller on the planet. he was just a fun person to be around. as i said earlier he was hard on us when we were kids but he was -- >> i will tell you two stories on me that are really funny and eye-opening. for me is when i was a youngster, a teenager i was a really good player. won a lot of junior tournaments, metropolitan junior championship so, on and so forth but i was hot headed and that is what kept me from being a good player on the tour because i was a perfectionist. if every shot wasn't per fect i couldn't handle it and i remember playing, arnold palmer was my idol. i tried to do everything arnold palm der. i was playing in a junior tournament and got mad and broke my driver which made a fool out of myself. i know coming home that the

pros already called my dad and said you know your son shot 78 today, but let me tell you, he didn't act very much like a gentleman, and blah, blah, blah and they would be correct because i didn't. so i walk in the den in our house. my dad is sitting in the chair. i know he knows exactly what i shot. he says how did you play today. i said i didn't play very good. i shot 78. he said it wasn't a good day. >> he say us know butch, i don't know why you get so madment you have never been so good. if you were arnold palmer he has a right to get mad. he is good. are you butch harmon, are you no good. why do you get mad. you just want to g then you think about it, well, yeah, i guess are you right so my rookie year on the tour, this is the other story, i miss the cut in cleveland, missed about four or five cuts in a row. and montreal the canadian open was the next weekend. in those days if you weren't top 60 money winner which is the only way you could be exempt you qualified on mondays. we were called rabbits to qualify on monday and get in the tournament. i called dad, saturday morning, i got a flight, i get into laguardia, get in

about 1:00, i can be at wing foot, no later than 3:00. i really need to have you watch me hit some balls and in the morning on sunday if you could watch me again i got to catch a flight to montreal to try and qualify for its canadian open on monday. he goes well, what dow mean. i thought you were playing good. i said no, dad, i play terrible. i missed the cut. he said oh, must have had the paper upside down. i'm thinking to myself, these are good lines, i just wish you weren't using them on me. >> rose: thank you very much. >> it's a pleasure to be with you. i admire you very much. your show, i love watching. thank you for having me. and anyone that is interested in the dvd go to butch harmon dvd.com and we'll send it to you starting next month, dick's sporting goods and galaxy golf are going to carry it. for those who get it i hope you like it and i think will you. >> rose: thank you. >> my pleasure, pal. >> rose: butch harmon, a conversation about golf and all of its manifestations and all of its anxiety and all of its pleasure and all of its challenge. thank you for watching. see you next time.

captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> funding for carlie rose has been provided by the coca-cola company supporting this program since it 002. >> and american express