tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. tonight, a conversation with legendary sportswriter and award winning journalist frank deford, the npr fixture just releasing an mmr called "over time, -- releasing mmr called "over time -- a memoir called "over time." >> every community has a martin luther king boulevard. it's the cornerstone we all know. it's not just a street or boulevard, but a place where walmart stands together with your community to make every day better. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.

tavis: please welcome frank deford to this program, a longtime contributor for "sports illustrated" and a regular on npr. he was also on "real sports with bryant gumbel," and he is also an emmy award winning author. he has a new book called "over time." after all of these years, i feel like i know you, but it is an honor to finally meet you. >> i would say the same thing. it is an honor to meet you. tavis: i have read somewhere

that you do not even like the word "memoir." do you want to stop me before we get started? >> riders do not have " memoirs." this is more of a "we-moir." tavis: you are a fascinating guy. let's jump in. they do have, how should i put this, and elevated and inflated place in our society, and what is it that is about sport that of the bids and enfilades these guys -- a sport that elevates and insulates -- inflates these

guys? >> it is all over the world. they are glamorous, beautiful, what they can do. we all admire them. we all play games, so and other words, we want to be them -- in other words, we want to be them. i do not think there are many kids and sit around and want to be actors or senators -- i do not think there are many kids who sit around and want to be actors or senators. tavis: i ask this with the backdrop of a great judge who once said, "i read the sports pages first, because it tells me of man's accomplishments."

what about when you first started covering these guys? >> first of all, sport is good. we are talki more about celebrity. i think at its best, sport does bring us together. i am not thinking that is the end of the world and that it will cure all of our problems, but when you go to a ballgame and sit next to somebody, you may not have anything in common with that guy, but all of a sudden, there is a shared experience, and i think we have a tough time finding community in this country, and i think sport does that. if you are the best, it shows in sports, and nobody can say, "well, he is only there because of his connections," and i guess it uphold democracy in the best in us. -- it up holds -- upholds

democracy and the best in us. tavis: i had heard that there is the skyboxification. who can afford a ticket? >> i have no idea. every now and again i get a free ticket, and i look at the price, and it's as $800 or $1,000. -- it says $800 or $1,000. the other thing is, tavis, you can sit home and watch that same game on television. it is not like that is your only chance. if you want to go to a broadway show and spent $200, that is your only way to see that share -- and spend $200, that is your

only way to see that show. tavis: what does that do to the sport long term? if the everyday people are being priced out? who is sitting in those seats? >> this is at places like yankee stadium. you see the best seats, and the seat behind them are wide open. people cannot afford them, or someone is sitting in those seats, but they are that getting a drink. they cannot be bothered to show up. -- they are back getting a drink. i remember when i was growing up in baltimore, we would get on a streetcar, and for a couple of bucks, you can get a pretty good seat. people cannot do that anymore. i think that changes the nature of sports.

this is supposed to be the common denominator. tavis: sport is, at least in part, about making money. has sport become too commercialized? too profit driven? >> if the owners are going to make money, i do not see why the players cannot make money, too. one of the most immoral things in this country is college football and basketball, where everyone is making money except the players. to me, that, i mean, you can talk all the what about that, but if the players are not getting paid, that is something wrong. where money is involved everywhere, the players get paid, but these kids, that is just disgraceful. tavis: i do not disagree with

you on that, but the flip side, there are players who are ever younger but also more uninformed. cassius clay was young, but he was not an informed. i do not mean to demonize them across the border, -- board, but to try to talk to and get a good interview out of person x, y, and z, they are just uninformed. >> the other thing is, i do not been brown was idolized. but today, -- i do not think that brown was idolized. fourth grade basketball players and that kind of stuff, and, yes, it is difficult.

among other things, they have sat and watched athletes being interviewed on television. but they have learned in a sort of robotic way how to deal with people like me. they have bland answers, and you do not really know how to get to know them. so there are these tedious kids to do not seem to do anything except to physically do extraordinary things. tavis: what you are up against. >> the simple beauty. i write in the book that of all of the things that i saw, lewis and the relay, which is coming to me, looking at the most beautiful woman in the world

combing her hair, that was it, to see that beauty, the glory in sports, where somebody comes from behind and does something, sinks a shot in the last second at the end ofs, the day, that is why we love sports more than anything else. tavis: what did growing up in baltimore mean to you to become this great sportswriter? >> i think i am a different person having grown up in baltimore than if i had grown up miles away in washington or boston, because baltimore is a working man's town. tavis: it still is. >> its still is, and we were fighting to get up, and i took pride in this place -- it still is.

i know that people looked down on us. it was not abject poverty or anything like that, but i did come from a city that people made fun of and did not give much respect to, and i think that changed me and made me more humble, and i know it made me more ambitious, whether i was a writer or whenever i turned out to be, a little bit of that is "i am going to show you," and that came from coming from baltimore. tavis: how did that "i am going to show you" turn out being a writer? >> i may be was a bit gets in your -- a bit gutsier.

the fact that i was a natural writer did not assure my success, but the fact that i had this natural ability and was plugged into doing better, i think that two of them made me what success i have been or provided that. tavis: how did you get on the track to be a writer? >> i was a much better writer than i was an athlete. it was told to me, "you write basketball better than you play it." how many kids at the age of eight or nine know what they wanted to be, and i did, and, of

course, if i had not succeeded, what a huge disappointment, but, nonetheless, that made me, the fact that i wanted it. i wanted it desperately and am not afraid to say that. tavis: what kept your writing? when others become editors and move onto something else? >> the one time i was an editor was for "sports daily," and i lost money. that kind of tells me i should not have been an editor. i am not blaming myself entirely. there were a lot of business reasons, and i think it was a creative success, but i never wanted to be an editor or a boss. i just wanted to write, and it did not matter if it was fiction or short stories or whatever.

that was what i was destined to do. that sounds of a highfalutin, but that is the way i feel. -- that sounds a little highfalutin. tavis: the people that you have covered and have been friends with, we will get to that in a second, but also, it is impossible to talk to you without talking about -- you have covered it. let me just ask you a broad question, and then we will get more specific. what is your sense of the role that race plays in sport? $40 million slaves. you have seen this and have covered this. what is your sense of the color line in sports? >> all you have to do is look at the nba playoffs, and you see an

african-american coach. now, nobody would have dreamed of that when i first got into the business. when bill russell was made a player coach, oh, my god. this was a huge thing. there was a sort of unwritten quota back in the mta -- nba. i do not think there was a great conspiracy, but there was the old expression that coaches would say with a wink. you start 3 at home, and for you are on the road, and you play five when you are behind. -- and four when you are on the road, and you play five when you are behind. we hear all the time about black athletes, the great ones, did not get endorsements, whereas lesser white players did. all of that was blown out of the

water by a o.j. simpson. it changes with who got more. there has been an extraordinary change, and i also think this has had an effect beyond sports. if you are a white kid growing up, and you see a black player, and he has got the name of your college or yorktown across his chest, that means something -- your college or yorktown -- your town across his chest, that means something. i am not saying that leads to the election of a black president, but that is what sports has provided. tavis: those arenas, those that have not caught up with respecting black players, what is holding them back?

i am thinking college division one football. what is holding them back? >> i think the nfl has made great strides. tavis: they are good, but they are not the nba. >> college basketball. college football means so much to alumni. it represents the school. it is at the beginning of this school year, homecoming, right? -- the beginning of the school year. it is a representation of the school almost more so than the administration. i think there are white alumni out there that would not mind

having an african-american president at their school but would be reluctant to have an african-american coach because he represents the school. i think it represents scheerer backward racism. i do not think there is any question about that -- i think it represents scheer -- sheer backward racism. there is a fair representation, but college football does not. you can dig and scramble and scratch, but at the end of the day, i think it is just pure old-fashioned racism. tavis: talking about racism, going back to the book, some of the people you have covered, some of them were friends of yours, and this is the fun part. i am going to let you go. >> all right. tavis: in no particular order.

cassius clay. >> usually, when an athlete gets a reputation, it sticks with him, even when he is an old man. it has changed completely with clay, and, of course, when he became ali, it was something to many people, and now he is beloved. at the vietnam monument, you know, with the possible exception of james fonda, no one was more distinguished in opposition to the war. tavis: fonda, ali, and king. >> he was having his picture taken there, and i thought when people were coming toward him, he would have a problem, but instead of that, they in braced him, and that was der. -- they embraced him. tavis: why is that?

sympathy? empathy? >> some of that and the fact that he stood up for what he believed in. at the time, it was very visceral, and people could not tolerate that, but overtime, i think they came to think, well -- but, over time, i think they came to, well, accept that. his beliefs. tavis: ali and howard cosell together. near the end of his life. i will let you tell the story. it is a powerful story. >> a lot of people think they did not like each other, that they were just using each other. both smart guys. beyond that, i think they really came to love one another, and when i went to see howard, -- he

were showing me things in his apartment, and he picked up this statute, and he said, "fragged, -- "frank, muhammad gave this to me." it was very touching. funeral, at howard's and i told him about that, so at the end of the day, they were two men who used each other and used their hearts. tavis: have you felt used by this business? >> yes. i will quote arthur ashe. blacks and what we call

coloreds who came to him, and they said, "do not go, arthur, they are using new," -- you," and he said, "yes, but i am using them too." by the same token, he is giving n't he?od story, is it is part of the quid pro quo. tavis: arthur ashe was not just another person, he was your friend. >> i did not start out to be buddies. he lived in new york. i lived in new york. we seemed to have the same interests. we got along.

that is a good way to describe it. he happened to be the tennis player, and i happened to be the writer. iowa back on him with a tremendous amount of affection because he was so much fun. -- i look back on him with a tremendous amount of affection. he died tragically. he was just a whole lot of fun, and we enjoyed each other's company. beyond that, i had the greatest respect and admiration for him. he was the most feeling athlete i suppose i have ever met. he was smart as a whip, but not just intellectually smart, caring and gutsy. tavis: i will close our conversation on this node.

-- note. this is a simple and adolescents question, but who is the greatest? -- and adolescent question, but who is the greatest? all of the sports. robinson. >> you are saying, "pick somebody"? tavis: yes. >> he would have won the gold medal if it had not been for the war. in the long jump. he was a darn good basketball player, and baseball, which he could make a living, in the negro leagues -- where he could make a living. that is good enough for me. if somebody wants to make an argument for jim brown or others, ok.

i am not going to fight them. tavis: i would never argue with you on anything that has to do with sports. i will leave it with that. jackie robinson is good enough for me. the new book, which i cannot give justice to in one conversation, is called "over time, my life as a sportswriter." as he said earlier, it is not so much about him but about his life and the people he has encountered, the story is that he was able to break. >> i really enjoyed it. tavis: thank you, sir. that is our show tonight. you can download the app from the app store. good night, and as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with --

a three-time grammy winner, shawn colvin. that is next time. will see you then. >> every community has a martin luther king boulevard. it's the cornerstone we all know. it's not just a street or boulevard, but a place where walmart stands together with your community to make every day better. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more. pbs.