it is trying to figure out how we could beat your team and then beat his team and beat somebody else's team, because it was like a chess game to me, what we did on thursday we are going to have to do some different things on saturday. i really enjoyed the breaking down of the opponent, trying to see what we could do to enable us to have a chance to win. i really enjoyed that part. >> rose: the financial times and bobby knight when we continue. >> funding for charlie rose was provided by the following.

>> rose: captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: this week, the financial times is celebrating its 125th anniversary to honor this milestone the empire state building was lit and the papers iconic salmon color on may 1st, the ft is one of the world's leading financial and political news sources, there are several facing, concerns u.s. economy, tepid growth and europe and the

slowing chinese economy, gillian tett is an assistant editor and columnist, she was previously u.s. managing editor, martin dickson is the current u.s. managing editor and been with the paper since 19 1976. i am very pleased to have all of them here at this table on this very auspicious birthday, welcome. great to see all of you. 125 years, and what is represented here is how many years did i tell you when we sat down. >> well, more than 18 years, we don't look 18 but that is the fact collectively and i have done 28. >> >> rose: how did this begin? >> well, 1888, a man called mr. marks, who was originally, he set up a newspaper called financial news in 1884, 1884, 1888 next came the financial times and these two battled it out until 1946, then they merged to form the modern financial

times, and of course this newspaper was launched at the pinnacle of power of the city of london in the late 19th century. >> rose: to reflect on that power and cover that power? >> well, it was an international financial center still, it still is an international financial center of the city of london, but we have always had that global outlook, whether it was looking at south african mining stocks in those days or what was happening in eastern europe and russia. >> rose: what is the worldwide circulation? >> we have print circulation of almost 300,000, but crucially, our digital subscription are now more than 325,000, last year, the digital subscriptions over took the newspaper circulation, and that is part of our transformation at the ft. >> rose: as you see this shift to digital, distribution, are we seeing at long last a kind of advertising support that measures up for the loss of the print revenue? >> charlie, print advertising

revenue is still very important. it is going down, crucially we hope to fill that space through digital subscription. advertising in digital is important, but not anywhere near as important as building the subscription base. >> rose: you were going to say. >> there are two key things you need to realize. first more digital subscribers than print subscribers is absolutely moving with the times and secondly at its dick tall, digital subscription base grows we are getting more and more revenue are that, so ft is not just dependent on advertising but increasingly from the consumers as well and that is an important shift. >> rose: all right. i take notice of this as the "new york times", you notice it is white. this is the wall street journal, you notice it is white, this is the washington post, you notice it is white. this is the percentage times, you notice it is not white. >> crucially, charlie, 1893, a great marketing trick, which we

decided to do pink. we call it by the way peach in georgia. >> it is power branding, you think of any other color, which you don't have such an extraordinary power of branding globally and anyone who sees that color anywhere in the world tends to think if they are in that global elite of business and policy makers is the target audience and automatically thinks financial times. >> i want to talk about the global economy and the things you cover here, geo political world and the global economy but first let me talk about the status of journalism today. and how it is changing because of the digital revolution .. now what reporters and editors can do, martin, is that changing? >> it is changing very much in that you have much more instantaneous news now with all forms of social media, and the traditional media have to respond to that, but at the same time there is a great demand for well thought out deep analysis and commentary, which is also what we provide.

>> rose: one of the things i love about the paper is that they are full page pieces about one subject, you know, and if you do what i do, you know, that is a wonderful source to go to. >> well, we need to be very clear about that what do we offer that others don't and i think there are two or three things that is really important, one is we connect dots between politics, economics and finance, two we have really authoritative commentary, people like martin wolf, gillian here, and others, and a lo a lot of american commentaries are coming in on our op ed page. >> rose: like larry summers and people like that. >> absolutely and we need to have deep and original reporting, we have got a global network of more than 100 foreign correspondents that's a fantastic assets and that means we can look at subject in depth. >> rose: go ahead. >> cache, just as pt has a distinctive brand in fees we have cache, international cache and business cache, we have got also cultural and artistic cache

as well. >> rose: i love the weekend edition, as well. >> that is the same thing about the cache and trying to appeal to the global audience. >> rose: the film and travel and those kind of things. >> charlie, commercial break, have tea -- >> rose:. >> cousins. >> it is a big deal to be asked to have dinner. >> we had lunch together and with charlie. >> rose: so when you think about today and what, have tea is, who is your audience? who are you writing for? >> our audience is the global elite, beyond the dallas crowd, obviously people who -- but anyone who is in a position of authority, in the global banking industry, business. >> rose: so you are looking at influential people.

>> >> rose: and say what is it they are curious about and how do we serve that own curiosity about the world around them? >> it is essential people whether they are executives or whether they are thirds both of those we want to address. sir gordon newton the greatest editor of the financial times served between 1949 and 1973, summed up the ft's mission as we have to appeal to those people who make or influence decisions in business, finance, and public affairs worldwide. >> rose: so what did he have that made him the greatest? >> he knew how to find talent, he understood the financial times had to be more than just a business publication, it could be interested in the arts and culture, and ideas, and also went into industry and lastly he built the foreign network. >> he often moved the times and adapted to change and one thing lionel has done is absolutely take the newspaper and adapt it

into digital form, into a more global form and into a media form it tries to serves the consumers what they want. >> rose: the digital means you can reach an audience you couldn't reach in an earlier time, certainly in terms of emerging nations and certainly where it was more difficult to get them the paper. >> absolutely. that's why we have a financial times ft chinese service which translates a lot of pt journalism and they have got several million registered users and reach that audience, as you say, charlie, places like brazil, india, where i was just recently in myanmar, my goodness i found some ft readers. >> rose: how come it is up for sale some say? >> it is not up for sale. >> it is not up for sale? >> listen, the media these days is growing by the day, and certainly i think as lionel will say, make it very clear they are not going to sell my time soon. >> rose: if they had a good offer from michael bloomberg would they say go away? >> speaking as the editor and

obviously i like to feel that i am in the know about most things, pierce and i have owners and more than 50 years they are committed to the present ownership of the financial times. it is not about money. this is great asset for their business. >> rose: let's talk about the world you guys cover. what is the biggest story of the day? >> i think china slowdown and the implications not just for the world economy but also for the role of the chinese state and whether this machine that we think works very efficiently and the mandarins know what they are doing and can they reform? how are they going to do it, what is the scope and sequencing? and second, are we going to get a budget deal in washington which would lift animal spirits not just in america but in the rest of the world and do a power of good to everyone. >> rose: do you believe, and you have been here, lionel and martin, do you believe america's inability to solve its budget issues and its long-term debt

and its fiscal deficit, somehow hampers its influence around the world? >> i think right now you are partly dealing with an ugly contest sparse america and europe and the good news for america is however channelling the political dialogue looks right now in the euro zone it looks even worse. i think -- >> rose: america is playing no role in the european issue, is it? >> effectively no, and you look back a decade and look at the committee to save the world that was so influential during the asian financial crisis the idea of being able to create a committee to save the world today, you know, is laughable. but i think looking at the imf when she talked about a see speed world today you have the euro zone, america the, can feel a bit smug about growing faster than the european zone but it is the emerging markets that are going forward with growth, the big question is when does the economic power translate into political clout and power, because it hasn't yet, and you have gone from a world where the

g-7 dominated to one where people pretended the g-20 mattered to one where, in effect, as ian bremmer says it is the g zero because it is not clear who is in charge today. >> rose: is it inevitable with that kind of economic power that the political power that comes with it will be exercised? >> not necessarily. i think there needs to be a will to exercise that power in the first place and i am not sure we are seeing it yet in china, for example. in terms of taking its full place on the world stage. but it is because they are more concerned and feel more the necessity of making sure that the economic growth and the prosperity which will enable them to have a rising middle class continues. that's the most important thing for the future, not whether they flex their wings, either militarily or politically? >> certainly at the moment, yes. i would agree with that, having spent just a week in china my

conversations suggest they understand the leadership really does understand the scale of challenge, whether it is reforming the state owned enterprises, whether it is reforming the labor market. this is enormous, it is enormous and therefore they don't want the distraction of conflict or security threats in their neighborhood. >> how long would it take them, gillian to turn from an exporting economic model to a consumptionñi model? >> it is hard to say because at the moment it depends on whether the economy is sustainable internally and there is over investment in china in some areas of the economy, you have got a credit bubble. >> rose: like real estate? >> well, real estate is an example of that, traditional industries where there has been potential over investment too. >> this is one really other interesting point that struck me. when we look at china, we ask ourselves, have they got a tiger by the tail or have they got a tying never the tank, the tiger in tank being a positive thing.

2 how 9 when they produced the great stimulus and a lot of commentaries said this is actually going to save the world economy. >> rose: right. >> in fact when you go the china all of that credit, all that stimulus went into propping up their deadish state owned enterprises and that's a big problem. >> rose: what is a deadish state owned enterprise. >> indebted and crowding out the private enterprise. >> we have people from china including this week and they tell me, i mean there is a consciousness at least to make competition with state owned enterprises, at least a bit fair. >> well, that's right, but again i was at a very interesting conference in kuming where something called the china enter prenear's club that is nonat oxymoron these are billionaires, very successful, that's the first generation of battle hardened veterans of the first wave of reforms under ding choo

ping they were skeptical and skeptical of prospects for reform and how quickly. >> rose: political reform. >> no, economic reform they didn't want to talk the role of the party. >> rose: wouldn't even two there. >> not really, no. >> charlie the key question about china is whether or not as the economy grows up and becomes more consumer focused whether the political structures and financial structures can grow up with it because if you look at the history of japan which used to cause such fear in america, japan's financial structure did not grow up with its economy so a like a child outgrowing a pair of shoes you have the tremendous grief and problems and chinese know what happened to japan, they are trying to avoid the same fate but it is going to make sure you have -- >> rose: where is japan today? >> in a mess. >> rose: in a mess. and it has been in a mess for how many years. >> about two decades. >> rose: two decades and what is the lesson of japan? >> about sitting on your hands. >> rose: the decades of problem. >> if you get intosome any

fication in the economy and pour bad after good money, and you pretend the problem is not there, it is a mentality that is hard to address or fix and they are trying to use shock and awe in this central bank ba zoo seek a to deal with it but the structural problems, although they are significant. >> rose: over the long-term, beyond 2015, would you put your money on japan or china, or india or china? >> beyond 2015 i would say india, before that china. >> rose: exactly that's what i thought too. >> the demographic is very important, and we are discovering a part right now in japan where you have a shrinking population and demographics mattered, like a lot of the euro zone but if you look at china, if you look at india and china today the democrat graphic pitch definitely favors india. >> rose: so that leaves the other emerging nation, especially latin america, take

brazil, mexico. >> mexico is very exciting, president obama is on the way there now. it is tremendous growth at the moment, brazil's economy has been slowing down, markedly, a lot of investment going into mexico right now. >> rose: okay. and i think -- i mean so we had this enormous growth, seven percent was it brazil at one point, and now it is down to what? >> one, two, right. >> rose: mexico is up, six, seven, something like that? what happened? was it political leadership or did they get up one morning and realized their problems had gone away? >> i think it is internal strains in the brazilian economy, innation was starting to take off and they needed to show things down, and i think within the brazilian economy there are huge, again, huge structural issues in terms of bureaucracy, difficulties of doing business, difficult labor laws, they all have had an impact and also the commodities cycle has come up. >> i think that's right. in brazil, it is a great

economic success storyof the first decade, of the century and mr. cardoza, president cardoza should take a lot of the credit for the reforms, lula he didn't undo them, it was a little disappointing, and i think needs now, we need a new reform verse. in mexico, that is one to my mind the most exciting political, economic story. >> rose: what is it? >> he is -- this president -- it is about a new president, because he has drawn up a bold, a brilliant political strategy where he got the other parties and got a good election win and he has taken on not just the invested interested in the trade unions but also the most powerful man in mexico, a billionaire. >> rose: antitrust issues. >> absolutely. and he has taken him head on and really surprised mr. slim. >> rose: he is a market man? >> he is a market man but a

reformist, and -- >> reform what? structure. >> the regular structure he is taking on vested interests that have held mexico back for at least a couple of decades. this is a remarkable politician and i think we should all wish him well, particularly in the united states, because if mexico is growing that is a great boom to the american economy. >> and frankly, in mexico, the way it is running its economy and trying to create rational proactive reconstruction policy puts much of the euro zone to shame and you see that in the marketing pricing today, trusts mexico more than the euro countries and it is important to note that this reform that is taking place now is, in part, the outcome of 20 years of gradual political change in mexico, that has made this possible. >> rose: when you look at energy as a technology and energy as central driving engines in a global economy, is

there huge opportunity within this american hemisphere and i mean by that, canada, the united states, mexico, latin america? >> well, charlie, i remember a conversation on wall street in november, the week before the election, i won't say who it was, i came in and i said, so tell me about america, and he said, lionel, unlike europe, we fix the banks and fixed our energy problem, and we have got mexico and canada as neighbors. we are going to have a whole new second coming and i think that is right. >> rose: what when is that second coming come something. >> it is happening right now with the shale gas revolution. >> rose: that is happening but with the shale gas revolution and not becoming a dependent on oil and energy supplies from energy sources from somewhere else, when will it kick in in terms of what we will be able to do and will this hemisphere be able to do in terms of economic growth? because we are still right around two percent growth

in gdp annually, and we used to be at four and some people believe it is tail a long time to get back to power. >> i think we can easily see growth at three percent plus in 2014, 2,015. >> the internet revolution, the internet revolution had long-term economic impact on the u.s. economy but in terms of lowering costs, creating more productivity, creating jobs actually took a little while to sort through, in many ways the shale gas revolution is not the same but in terms of the change of the economic productivity is going to have an impact for a number of careers. >> rose: this is about you. what part of the economic picture interests you the most? is it markets? is it what? >> it is, since 2007, it has become very clear that credit is no longer just about numbers, it is about daring in the meaning trust, and essentially what we are living in is an era where it

is really all about the political economy, it is about intersection of the state and markets. it is about whether societies is, and politicians and you can't just predict the future these days by crunching the numbers into a sprea spreadsheeh people thought they could on wall street before 2007, you have to have a wider view. and one of the reasons why the financial times, you know, has so much to offer right now because we really, as lionel says do try to take a view and go over the politics and the economics and the markets across the world and try and see how they are interacting in a way that people need to understand. >> rose: i remember attending last year one of the years ago in these conferences we all go to and tim geithner said i am paraphrasing hope i am right, he said all economic questions are political questions. >> now more than ever. >> rose: right. let's turn to the united states beyond the context of the hemisphere. do people look at our political system and say, you know, are you mad? >> no, they used to say that

last year. >> rose: right. >> actually this year, people are a little bit more optimistic. >> why? >> because there are, there is the prospect of a deal on the budget. >> rose: right. >> somebody said to me in washington just earlier this week, two telephone calls away from a deal. and i think that is -- i think that is right. that would do an enormous amount. if we got immigration reform, it looks like this is getting pretty sticky, i think gun control, is an enormous disappointment, this seems to be an impasse there, but i would argue that we have seen, well, maybe i am sticking my neck out here, charlie, i think we have seen the worst when it comes to disposed dysfunction malt in the american political system and most of us understand at this biased against action anyway. >> well, the other key point is that sequestration has almost become the new normal and a political class and a population that is kind of getting used to the idea of having tax increases and spending cuts, and yes it is

unpopular but people are starting to almost get grudgingly reconciled to that. >> rose: but when you look at the united states and all of the books that were written about the decline of america, were they wrong? >> they were not entirely wrong, no, they weren't wrong. there is tremendous potential upside in america if we get through the hurdle as long as, as i hope to in terms of economic efficiency in terms of dividend from the energy boom, in terms of the labor market reforms that have taken place since 2008 problems, i think there is tremendous potential outside, and u.s. manufacturing is coming back. >> rose: for what kind of manufacturing is coming back? >> manufacturing across-the-board. >> rose: cars -- making better cars. >> exactly. >> rose: and they have been able to regroup after the financial crisis, two of them. ford has done it so they are in good shape. >> accolade is bringing jobs back to the u.s.

>> rose: so what does that mean, what has happened to allow that? >> u.s. labor costs relative to the rest of the world have come down so the u.s. is much more competitive. productivity has increased. >> rose: when i asked you the question earlier about you and your interests i thought you might say currency or when i say was markets your primary curiosity and you didn't say that, i thought you might say currency because you write a whole lot about -- >> i think people who are watching the u.s. dollar they are also watching the treasury market as well and the question of whether the american government is credit worthy or not, but, yes, i mean right now the dollar is doing well and in the ugly contest that is the global market today between the euro zone, the u.s. and other countries. >> rose: what about the new italian prime minister, what do we know about him? >> he basically has a tough job on his hands and has chosen because there was nobody else and could probably reconcile the different parts and that is never a good basis on which to be chosen to run a country, that is facing so many challenges as it is right now.

>> mary uponable month proved to be a very effective leader. >> or very bad politician. >> he was telling italians to eat their spinach and, you know, so unfortunately, he had a really tough job and that ain't going to change with the next guy. >> rose: who else martin should we think about. >> the new china leadership because they have such a huge job as we discussed in moving the country forward and preventing the slowdown governing pace too much. >> rose: would we like to see a new gandhi in india? >> i don't think we will see a new gandhi in india. >> rose: when i look around, what about the pope, pope francis? >> argue teen, well. >> rose: who everybody seems to be impressed with so far, by the way. >> so far, interesting he is not quite donned the austere at this cloak but it is quite interesting how the more modest

projection of the pope and how he almost is trying to attune himself to modern times and that is -- >> rose: is it the right tone? it made the church at least talk about the idea of what the church's mission was? >> i think he has had a reasonable -- >> rose: a lot of reticence in your voice is saying watch out there is too much hype about pope francis and better ask ourselves what his fundamental ground dings are? >> i thought you put that pretty well, charlie. >> and also reflecting a changing power in the world if you like. we had emerging markets pope in the same way that we have the increasingly writing about the emerging market it is fascinating to look at this incredible retiling or tilting of the world, not just economically but politically and socially as well. >> rose: but you wrote about and i think you called it the davos man. >> yes, i was going to say the davos woman too.

>> rose: the idea was that the faith in globalization had been shaken, wasn't it? >> what i was arguing is that pre2007, the globally, took it for granted that globalization, free market capitalism and innovation was fabulous things that only -- since 2007, fate and innovation has been shaken, free market capitalization has been shaken in america look at some of the things that are happening here and also faith in globalation has taken quite a knock. if you look what is happening in cross capital border flows. >> rose: should america worry about how much debt china holds? >> i think it ought to hurt about how much debt the federal reserve holds because its two biggest holders are both not traditional owners of u.s. government bonds. >> rose: and the federal -- the reserve debt because it had to -- >> because it had to rescue the economy? >> well they say that in their own way, they are trying to land

a difficult plane, you can say, i for one he the federal reserve has acted correctly in the last several years. >> rose: 2007, 2008? >> however -- i think for the most part it has been, however, the reality is by doing what it has done is taken away the pressure of washington to actually find any kind of deal on the budget quickly. >> rose: they don't have many tools left, do they? >> to stimulate the my? >> yes. >> they can keep buying more assets, i mean, mortgage bonds into is that a wise thing to do? >> i think at the moment, if they want to keep things stable and if they have faith that the politicians are going to act in a situation where the economy is on the bottom, certainly is. >> rose: i will ask you this, what do you worry about the most? >> what i worry about the most is the danger of another financial crisis down the road. >> rose: another buckle. >> another bubble. >> rose: where might it come from? >> it might come from lease money, my biggest fear. >> rose: what is loose money

mean? too much money out there. >> too much money out there. >> china shock. >> rose: china shock, what is that. >> sudden china slowdown or some sign of instability in china, so much of the global economy, including america is predicated on this idea that is china is going to keep growing fairly steadily and so much of the commodities market, u.s. manufacturing. >> rose: what is the most likely cause of china shock or what threatens? >> lionel has been there so he would probably have a better idea. >> we don't know how big the shallow banking is in china. >> rose: look how it is here. >> we can't trust chinese statistics. what we do know is that this economy is definitely slowing down, so how are they going to manage this when they also have to maintain a certain level of growth. they have done it very successfully to absorb very large numbers of people into the labor force and get the movement from land to the cities. this is a very delicate,

difficult political, economic process, and i worry about how -- whether they can handle it, i also worry this is a premature superpower, it has the nuclear miss stills, it is part of a quasi g 2, but on the other hand, it is part of its legitimacy of the state is nationalism, chinese nationalism, so we have to worry about that. >> rose: if nationalism years its ugly head. >> so par the party has been very resourceful, these are new leaders, they are more outward going and they seem a little bit more -- different, different quality, not engineers, sort of lawyers. >> rose: what do you think of president obama? >> well, i think he is doing a pretty good job, look, he won -- that election campaign that he fought, brilliant, the ground campaign, he has got now a lean second term, he has one of two very difficult foreign policy issues that are going to loom in the second term, iran,

particularly iran, that is off the radar at the moment. i would like to see, you know, can president obama with the congress strike a budget deal this year? that's a big test. >> rose: what is interesting there my vantage point is, you know, we know him so far, you know, and he clearly has been a practical man and a political man, and that seems to be his internal shaping compass, yet at the same time he is a student of history and whether there is some boldness in him at some point is released the problem is it redundance up against what is the beginning of 2016 campaign about a year or so from now after the midterm election. >> charlie, do you know what he actually stands for in the second term? i mean. >> rose: well i do know, immigration reform, we know he stands for that, we know because of the events he stands for gun control because of the horrors -- >> i imagine if you ask the american people today what is,

what exactly is the president going to stand for in the second term, what is he actually campaigning for, not against, many people would actually scratch their head and nod, it is not entirely clear to me what he is trying to achieve. let's hope lionel is right and the legacy will be a big deal on the budget and debt, because that really would be a fabulous legacy. >> rose: if we see three and a half percent growth, 2,000 fowrngs, 2014, 2,015, no conflict with iran, president obama will go down as one of the top american presidents. >> rose: really? >> i believe so. if. >> rose: coming back at three-point -- >> three and a half point. >> rose: and somehow -- >> solve the economic legacy, fro the economy. no war abroad, and have brought the troops home, i am writing a biography already. >> rose: what would you have him do in syria? >> oh he needs to be very careful about getting involved in syria, that is an ethnic mess, i can see martin nodding. >> rose: stay away from syria? >> be very cautious of syria,

don't bet too involved. >> rose: don't send planes over there in sterms of a no-fly zone? >> no the risk of doing so are too great. >> i would agree so reluctantly because the heart bleeds wha whs going on the ground today it is iron milk if you compare it to libya and the fact there was such a clear signal they would not tolerate all of that tragic on the ground in libya but are in sir i can't it is tragic, but yes. >> rose: it is also one of the great historical questions right now the things we have mentioned but also what the arab world will look like for the next ten years, 15 years as it shapes, you know -- as we see the stimulus of the arab spring finding new direction, that we couldn't even imagine at the time. >> but it is not just about the stimulus of the arab spring but the issues touched on earlier to do about energy and one unforeseen consequence of a revolution in north dakota in shale gas is if you see oil prices falling over the next

decade or two you will see a lot of these petroregimes facing big internal challenges and at the same time oil will be in america. >> rose: mcthey needed and put a lid on its political programs. >> oil at $100 a barrel is a big economic impact and herring won't feel the same need to prop up regimes or intervening. >> rose: with the saudis, it is not propping up -- >> but the implications of american energy independence are huge just, just coming back to the arab spring, what worries me most is the egyptian economy, it is not -- it is not necessarily imploding but there is an awful lot of unemployed people and no prospect, and so that euphoria we saw in 2010, 11, it is fast, fast dissipating, very worrying and then there is external meddling. >> rose: the interesting thing about the arab world too, you look at syria look who is on its border, iraq, look what is on

the borders, the notion of competing interests that everybody, every country is surrounded by people they are not necessarily -- and each of the conflicts may flow over. >> one unof the most underreported items in the last few days is the fact that america has stepped up assistance to jordan, it is now $1 billion, and there is a lot of refugees and wrote dan is critical again for the stability in the region. >> rose: welcome to. >> welcome to the united states. whewhen what the term you used about the council of the future it was a wonderful term you used. >> the mission to say the world. >> rose: the commission to save the world. >> which if they are committed to that. >> rose: but what we say here in new york, if you want to be a member of the committee to save the world you go to dinner at gillian's house. >> i would have charlie lead the debate. >> rose: thank you. congratulations to you, 125 years. >> thank you, charlie, it has been great being here. >> a must read for me. >> thank you. >> rose: back in a moment stay

with us. >> rose: bob knight is here, he is a college basketball icon and won more than 900 games during 43 years at head coach, he was at army, independent i can't naah and texas i texas ted led the indiana hoosier to three national titles and 11 big ten championships, ucla coaching legend once said wrong there ever has been a better teacher of the became than bob. he writes about the unorthodox philosophy that guided his success on the court and beyond in this book, the power of negative thinking. an unconventional approach to achieving positive results i am pleased to have him back at this table. welcome. great to see you. >> at the same table. at the. there same table has been here a long time. >> rose: i tidy it up occasionally. we can't afford another one and kind of like it and sort of feels very comfortable to me. >> it tickles in me when i saw the table, i brought back some exood memories. >> rose: would you go back to

coaching under any circumstances? >> well, you know, i think if i saw a situation where we could have a team that would be competitive with any teams that would be playing with it would be interesting for me, but i am not sure, i have been very comfortable out of coaching and other things i like to do. i have enjoyed the tv stuff, and i just feel pretty comfortable, but coaching was something that i really like to do. >> rose:. >> what did you love about it? >> well, the end result, to me, was to see that i have told you and your wife that your son may not play for the national championship, but he will get a degree, and i like that part of it from the standpoint of contributing something. the second thing i liked about it was trying to figure out how to beat your team and beat his team and beat somebody else's team, because it was like a chess became to me. what we did on thursday we are going to have to do some

different things on saturday. i really enjoyed the breaking down of the opponent, trying to see what we could do to enable us to have a chance to win. i really enjoyed that part. >> rose: john wooden said you were a great teacher and john wooden knows something about teaching. >> yes, he does and i appreciate that very much coming from him and i think at, i really believe right here, though, getting a chance when i was coaching at west point to play in the garden here, a lot as we did, and as good a thing as ever happened to me was the chance to coach at west point. i think maybe that is the host significant thing. >> rose: more than indiana? >> yeah, because i learned more at west point, i was just starting and it was a hard situation for recruiting and we didn't have a whole lot of time to practice, we couldn't just practice whenever we wanted to and i got a great background, i think, for what i wanted in kids

by working with the cadets at west point. >> rose: with when you look at the game today, and you see so many people, it is 1 and 1, year in and year out, does that -- what does that say to you what a has happened to the college game? >> i in at this ncaa has been lacks in a number of things, like penn state, i like what the ncaa did there. >> rose:. >> the whole approach they took. >> but i mean, the most atrocious thing happened there. >> yes, but i don't know if they were involved with ncaa or not, i think they were legal things, certainly an atrocious hinge but to penalize kids six, eight years before that and take the wins away from those teams, when penn state at that time probably had the highest graduation rate of any football program in the country, you know, and so in what you are saying, that was

just one part, for me mike and i went to see david stern, the big nba commissioner about just what you said, that one and done thing, because we talked to him about, you know,, we need to get a situation like major league baseball has like professional baseball has let the kids stay in college three years before you draft a kid and then we have college kids playing basketball, we don't have some guy, two guys that we have hired to be there for a year and they are gone. and the ncaa never reacted to it, never made any effort -- >> rose: david, what did david stern say? >> he was very much in favor of that. i really appreciated what our conversation with him, because i talked -- in fact, i told him if i was a general manager in your league i wouldn't want a kid one year out of college he is not ready to play in the nba. >> rose: you say that about lebron james? >> no, you are some guys you can't say that about. you couldn't say that jack nicholas needed to wait longer to play, you know, but there are

not many, though, charlie. yeah, there really aren't, i think a kid -- there is a maturity level that has to be reached in the nba because of all of the travel and all that goes on in the hba that has to go beyond the kid being 19. >> rose: shane battier who went four years and fraud, considered one of the most incredible guys he ever coached, captain of the team and went on and is now having a successful pro career, but he had some maturity to him and he even developed it further. >> well, see, that is my whole point, i think that is exactly what would work to the benefit, not just of the kid but of the nba, i mean, already not many 19-year-old kids that are capable of playing well in the nba. >> rose: what is the most important thing in building a great college team now? >> you know, i think it is just kids that will listen to what you want done. okay? it is my responsibility to put something together that we can win with, but it is the

player's responsibility to do what it is that we want to do, and i think kids that simply want to win, that want to have a really good team, that want to depend upon one another, i always wanted -- i didn't particularly care if a kid averaged 30 points a game or whatever, i liked to watch him play and know that he was a tough minded kid, that he played hard, i would check his academic background, he was a decent student, maybe even a very good student, that was the kind of kid that i really liked to work with, and i was really fortunate to get a lot of those kids to work with. >> rose: were you prepared to do what che chef ski is prepared to do and the coach at the university of texas, i mean the university of kentucky is prepared to do with .. people that, prepared to do what petino is prepared to do, constant recruit something were you prepared to do that or did you somehow say i in look at independent i can't naah and i am going to find enough good basketball players here?

>> no. we recruited hard, charlie, and -- but i think i made a mistake in this regard. it was nine years before we recruited a player from ohio, other than ohio, indiana or illinois. >> rose: they are neighbors. >> and we recruit add really good kid from florida named jimmy thomas. >> rose: right. >> well i think we could really have stretched our recruiting more than we did, in other words when i was at west point, there is a guy named bob lapadus many years ago did you know bob? >> yes. >> he had the parade magazine, all-american football and high school, all-american basketball teams and i would come down and visit with bob and his wife sophie, and i would mark down from all of the newspapers he had from all over the country, every every kid that made the all county team, allstate team and write them a letter to see if they would be interested to come to the academy, to west

point, now i didn't do that at indiana and i think that was a mistake, i think that had i reached out more for the better kids in other states, you know, at that time, schools that you were really probably looking at from a basketball standpoint, indiana, north carolina,. >> rose: kentucky. >> ucla, kentucky, whatever, you know, six, seven schools in there. >> rose: best kids wanted to go there. >> but we didn't get ourselves involved in that, to the extent that i think we should have. if i had to do it over again, i think i would look at recruiting more on a national basis, and i was probably a little shorter on recruiting than anybody else and i would kind of go in and say okay here is what we have got, i u know, i am probably going to be the most difficult coach your son can play for. >> rose: all right. let's talk about the power of negative thinking and unconditional approach to achieving positive results. what idea made you write this book? >> well, when i was just -- when

i wasn't very old, say six or seven, if i asked my grandmother something, you know, whatever it might be i would say, grandma, how about -- i wish that or i would like to or something. and my grandmother would look down at me and say, you keep this in mind. when wishes are horses, beggars will ride. and i have never forgot that, and my love of my grandmother and that has been in my mind ever since with everything i have done. so i have looked at words, charlie like, no. i think no is the most important word in the english language, because we can all look not too far in our past and with remember something if we would just have said no we would be better off, and so to me. >> rose: people who are hearing you say this and saying, i wish, i just wish he would learn this, i wish he would learn what bobby is saying, the capacity to say no.

i say yes more often than i say no. >> but you are very -- you are a guy that does a lot of things, i mean charities, emcee, all of this stuff for charity so that is not the thing to say no about but it is you are not sure about it and then another great word is why, why do you want me to do this? or another thing, i will call you tomorrow about noon. i think hesitation and endeavor is a great thing, and so to me, there are some really key things, like in coaching, let's say you were in assistant and you had scouted ohio state for us. well the first thing i would say when you came back that night was, i said, okay, charlie, how can we lose this game? what can they do to beat us? and then you would go through it and tell me, okay, bob, i think, this, this. okay. what do we have to eliminate to win this game? and then you woulwould say well we can't let smith drive the ball or --

>> rose: right. >> so we have all of these negative words, can't and don't and won't and i built on that. i wanted to know how we could lose before i ever figured out -- >> rose: what is the opposite of that that you are arguing against? >> well, i am arguing against saying yes to everything, or everything is going to work out. >> rose: okay. >> or how about this one, charlie. susie, come here, let mommy kiss that scratch on your knee. well, pop my better have iodine on her tongue because that kiss about going to do my good. or ho how many times have you hd this. don't worry, the sun will shine brighter tomorrow. that may be, but it is just going to be a hell of a lot hotter. that sun ain't going to help us any w have to help ourselves. >> rose: two people, first of all, larry bird, the great larry bird. came to independent i can't naah and then left. came to indiana and then left .. how come you let him go? >> oh we didn't let him go. i had a couple of players that i

found out later that didn't really treat bird well, and i didn't know that for some time, plus the fact that larry was kind of a kid that didn't have a lot of self-confidence at that point. he was six-5 and he weighed about 185 pounds, and eventually he was six-eight, or nine and weighed 2:30 not too long after that and i just felt that he probably thought that he just didn't fit in at that time, just wasn't maybe ready for something as big, as 25,000 students or whatever indiana was at that time, and but i always appreciated larry bird, because when asked about why he didn't stay at indiana, that is kind of why he said, he just wasn't quite ready for college at the time, and even, i have got a little thing that i kept and i don't keep many things, somewhere there is an article in sports illustrated on bird and

gretzky, about their great abilities, and in it, bird was quoted as saying on this indiana question well i do know that i would have been a better defensive player had i played at indiana, which really is -- >> rose: because of you. >> i appreciated that tremendously. >> gretzky, tremendously. >> rose: you don't go where the puck is, you go where it is going to be and larry always was said to have a sense of the court. >> he knew where everybody was. and when he had the ball, it was never looking for his opportunity, is there something better than what i have got? bird was as good with the basketball in his hands as anybody that ever played the game, maybe th the best. >> rose: would the basketball in his hands he was as good as anybody who ever played the game and he also has tremendous hand-eye, coordination. >> that was part of it, you know, he knew where people where were and has it in his in his hands if he had an opportunity to drive, he drove, and bang the other guy lays it in there and

there is ted williams i said to tom friedman who was here before you, there is one thing i wish i had done is i got to know ted williams as you know down him, and he used to say i would go fishing with bobby and. >> just go out and he said you ought to be here, it is one heck of a trip and what was it like? >> it was unbelievable. i mean, i, i think i consider that one of the two or three most rewarding and enjoyable relationships that i have ever had in my life. i loved ted williams. jerry mcguinness and i took him to russia, and he was just -- he was great, you know he was a marine pilot. >> rose: right. in the korean war and world war ii. >> and he would be out in the stream fishing and i would start singing the marine anthem and come to attention in the middle of the river and then he wouldñi turn and salute me. people didn't think what a great sense of humor he had, and what -- how neat he was to be around.

>> rose: was he a good fisherman? >> the best, maybe. >> rose: really? >> maybe the best fly-fisher man that ever lived. oh, yeah. >> rose: the same thing larry had, hand-eye coordination. >> yes, great, great eyesight. he had the highest visual score on the marine pilot test of anybody that ever took it. visual acuity and kirk gaudy called me. >> a great announcer. >> one of the best, maybe the best sports guy ever, he loved kurth too, and kurth says when are you and ted going fishing? and i said, next week we are going to russia, he said well i called you to tell you one thing, now, i know you idolize the guy, but you just -- you know, if wrote dow that he is just going to run over you, and you have to come right back, he said you are caustic must have to handle him but you have got to. and that was the first time i was ever with him and i spent every time i could, i just liked to talk to him and he was great

with the ladies, i mean, he -- i don't know what he was at this time, i went with my wife to meet ted and he lived in a little town north of tampa, and karen and i have there and i walked in the house and where have you been, coach? he said, do you show up late for practice? did you miss the first three minutes of the game, coach? damn it, i told you to be here at 8:00 o'clock and he just pounded away. now, my wife karen is a wonderful lady and a very pretty lady and she came in off ted's patio, and while he is pounding at me he just glances over and just went like this. well, young lady, you come right here and sit beside ted now, you are a pretty, come on, right now beside ted. >> rose: the power of negative thinking, unconventional approach to achieving positive results, bob knight wrote it with bob -- thanks for coming. >> great to see see you as alwa. >> rose: bobby knight, thank

you for joining us, we will see you next time. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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