>> well the first thing to keep in mind is that these policy debates are really moral debates. it's about how to secure the well-being of the body, freedom of thought, freedom of conscience. the religious traditions have an immense amount of resources to help us think about where to draw this line. first and foremost in the just war tradition is the idea of proportionality. when you perceive a threat against you, your response has to be measured and tempered appropriate to stop that illegitimate threat but go no further. >> but let me ask you this, we're talking about some things that are secret or supposed to be secret, now how do we how do we rate how big a threat there is when we can't really know because of the secrecy? >> sure, some of that in our political structure is built into the dna of the political order created by the constitution. we have checks and balances

between the different branches, we have a federalist state local structure that maintains that. we also have the press importantly who helps expose both the threats abroad so that we understand the gravity of what the national government is facing in keeping us secure. but we also have the concerns about, what are these programs? and some information about that i think is a good thing for people to understand where that how much information is being exposed to the government so that we can have the national debate that president obama called for. >> there was a poll out earlier this week, something like fifty-six percent of the people said that security in essence, security is more important than privacy and when they collide they'd rather go with security. >> sure, first thing as a moral theorist, the fact that something works and the fact that lots of people think that it's ok doesn't necessarily make it so. but the second thing is that when you're trying to balance privacy and security or security against any other value, there's

the gravity of an immediate threat can often recalibrate how you think about the value of these other sorts of things. twelve years out from 9/11 it may be that some people don't think of this threat of foreign terrorism in quite the same way, that overrides their concerns about the privacy of their text messages and internet communications. other people i think do and trying to figure out where the right line is and having a national debate about that i think is the right move right now. >> quickly, have you yourself, for yourself come out about where you think, how much, how much the emphasis should be on security and how much on privacy? >> i think security is deeply important, i think that the collection and minimization procedures that are in place where they collect the data but can oy access it and analyze it if there's specific threats that they have reasonable suspicion about, that's the way

to go. >> professor michael kessler of georgetown university, many thanks. >> thank you. in other news, religious groups were active on several policy issues this week. as the full senate began debate on immigration reform, prominent clergy were among those joining president obama at the white house to push for quick passage of the legislation. a broad range of faith leaders, including southern baptists who support new immigration laws. meanwhile, the southern baptist convention held its annual meeting this week in houston. among many measures, delegates passed a resolution opposing the recent boy scouts decision to allow openly gay scouts. the resolution expressed support for churches and families that cut ties with the scouts, but it stopped short of calling for an all-out boycott. another big topic of discussion was how to expand outreach.

membership declined nearly one percent last year, although with 15.9 million members, the sbc is still the nation's largest protestant denomination. for more than 20 years, one of the most prominent sbc voices on the national stage was that of richard land, president of the denomination's public policy arm, the ethics and religious liberty commission. land retired from that position earlier this month. his successor is theologian russell moore. moore told kim lawton he wants to defend traditional sbc values, but with respect for those who disagree with him and kindness toward them. >> we will talk about marriage on the line. >> as the southern baptists' new national voice on matters of ethics and public policy, russell moore says he's not afraid to take controversial stands. but he doesn't see himself as a

culture warrior. >> i see myself as someone with very strong convictions about what, what matters, the permanent things, but i also see the approach that we as christians ought to take as one of kindness, whi i don't equate with weakness. >> that's the tone moore hopes to set as president of the southern baptist convention's ethics and religious liberty commission. where he has two basic areas of responsibility, speaking to southern baptist churches about important social issues and advocating for those values in the national media and political arenas. in that role, he says he doesn't want to further political polarization. >> i think that anyone who is speaking about an issue that is, that is dearly held, will be seen as polarizing to some degree or other but i think that if you don't see the other side of an argument as an enemy, if you're trying to seek to persuade and to be understood,

not seeking to vaporize or to demonize opponents, i think that goes a long way. >> moore was previously dean of the school of theology at southern baptist theological seminary in louisville. at 41, he has a different style from many southern baptist leaders. he is a prolific tweeter and blogger, who makes frequent pop culture references. >> jumping the shark, which came out of the television industry, having an attentive view of culture, i think is a very publical thing to do. which doesn't just mean raging against the culture. it means instead seeing where are god's good gifts showing up in culture? where are things that we ought to be wary of within the culture? and having a discerning mind and a discerning eye. >> moore hosts a podcast about country music and recently wrote a defense of hip-hop music. >> hip-hop and country both deal with the full scope of reality, which means not only love but also as johnny cash used to put it, i sing about love, god and

murder. i think that shows up in country music at least in its old classical form and in contemporary hip hop music and i think it's important for us to listen to that. >> his style may be different, but moore does hold conservative southern baptist positions on traditional social issues, such as his staunch opposition to abortion and same-sex marriage. >> we believe that marriage can't be defined or redefined by the state. we believe that marriage is a pre-political reality that the state simply recognizes, of the union of a man and a woman in one flesh union that's important for the stability of families and stability of communities. >> is there a loss of momentum right now for conservative christians? >> i think there is, but i've never held to a view about marriage for majoritarian reasons. even if we're in the minority, we need to be speaking to the common good to say this is, this

is why marriage defined naturally and biblically is significant and important for all people. that doesn't mean that anyone else's relationships are degraded or somehow people are being legally persecuted for that. >> moore has taken on a broader slate of issues as well. he is considered one of the founders of what has become known as the evangelical "orphan care" movement, which advocates adoption and other ways to help vulnerable children around the world. it's a deeply personal crusade for moore and his wife maria. two of their five sons were adopted from russia. >> seeing an orphanage filled with children needing families with nowhere to turn and knowing that there are orphanages and group homes and foster care systems all over the world, children, like my own children now, made in the image of god, is a heartbreaking reality. >> moore believes there is a biblical mandate for the

movement. >> scripture tells us to care for the fatherless, the widow, the sojourner in the land, and the scripture also tells us that we are those who have been adopted into god's family. we were orphans spiritually the bible says but now we're children, or not only children, the bible says, but heirs. and so the scripture says receive others as you have been received. >> he rejects recent criticism that the orphan care movement has helped bolster human trafficking of children and corruption in some countries. >> the very people who are calling the church to care for orphans are also those who are the most insistent about fighting human trafficking and corrupt practices and so i think that's an unfair charge. it's a movement to not only provide families for those children who are in need of families, and only those children who are legitimately in need of families, but also to attack the root causes of the global orphan crisis, to deal with poverty, to deal with war,

to deal with genocide. >> moore is also a vocal advocate for the southern baptist convention's support for immigration reform. >> finding a just way to move immigrant families and communities into the mainstream of american society is a christian -- is a deeply held christian notion. we're not going to agree on everything about how to get there, but i think the basic value structures are there, which is one of the reasons why evangelical christians are among those calling most loudly for immigration reform. >> before becoming a theologian, moore worked for conservative mississippi democratic congressman gene taylor, and in kentucky, he was a registered independent. he says evangelicals should be careful about being identified with partisan politics. >> we work with people of good will that we can work with across the spectrum, but we do so with a certain sense of prophetic distance. we don't belong to anyone's

political party. we don't belong to anyone's organization, and so we ought to have the freedom then to speak prophetically, to both parties and to all parties. >> he's convinced that christians have a religious obligation to speak up on moral issues. >> if in 1925 alabama you're not addressing the question of lynching, then you're not dealing with sin. and you're not then calling people to repent it and dealing with questions of public justice. and if in 2013 you're not addressing question of abortion and of human trafficking and so forth, you're not addressing the whole counsel of god. >> new southern baptist numbers document a decline in denominational membership, church attendance and baptisms. moore concedes that in many cases, the traditional values they hold are increasingly not reflected in mainstream society. >> i think one of the biggest challenges for conservative christians is moving beyond a

bible belt mentality, or a moral majority mentality, and seeing ourselves instead as in many cases a prophetic minority speaking to a larger culture about things that matter. >> but he says his work with seminary students gives him confidence that those in the next generation will join him. >> we're disciples. we've been called forward with somebody else's authority. >> you have deep, deep conviction among millennial christians, not only in the united states but around the world, and, and god is doing some, some remarkable things, so i have nothing but optimism and hope there. i'm kim lawton in louisville. many conservative christian activists are already gearing up for the 2014 and 2016 elections. the faith and freedom coalition held a meeting in washington to

rally supporters and promote new get-out-the vote projects. the group heard from several republican politicians considered possible presidential hopefuls. in north carolina, moderate and liberal religious leaders have been flexing their political muscles in a series of protests they call "moral mondays." over the past two months, more than 300 people have been arrested in acts of civil disobedience against several measures adopted by the republican majority legislature. protesters say the measures hurt poor people. and as leaders of the group of eight industrialized nations prepare to meet in northern ireland next week, faith-based organizations urged them to consider how their policies affect the poor. at a washington briefing, aid group leaders highlighted concerns including the humanitarian crisis in syria, food security and ongoing economic corruption in many

regions. >> we cannot live in a moral way knowing that one billion people on this earth live in abject poverty. the g-8 leaders will be meeting at a northern ireland resort near the town of enniskillen. that area symbolizes the long history of violence between the protestants and catholics in northern ireland. but as david tereshchuk reports, enniskillen has a history not only of bloodshed, but also of forgiveness. >> the small northern irish country town of enniskillen seems like the perfect picture of rural calm. but its history seethes with violence. most infamously in modern times on the sunday observed as

"remembrance day" in november 1987, the morning's peace was shattered by a devastating bomb. eleven people died that day, and sixty more were seriously wounded. the bomb had been planted near a memorial honoring the dead of world wars i and ii. it was the work of the irish republican army, the predominantly roman catholic organization that used force for advancing irish aspirations to get britain out of northern ireland. those killed were all civilians, largely elderly couples gathering to watch the day's memorial parade, plus a 20-year old student nurse, marie wilson. the dead were also all protestants, members of the community generally labeled "loyalist" because they remain loyal to britain's rule over northern ireland. with the carnage, emotions

inevitably ran high among political leaders and right across the sectarian divide. >> it was so appalling. i could scarcely believe it, because anyone who would do such a terrible thing would be condemned the world over by every nation. and i hope that will happen. >> both communities would have been much shocked at the bombing. >> for me, a feeling of shame that something like this might even have been done in my name. it was almost something sacrilegious to do, you know, to take a moment of remembrance and to violate us in that way. >> the explosion terrorized the community. some folk would tell you that they do feel bitter and always will feel bitter. >> but then the day after the bomb, something remarkable happened. gordon wilson, a prominent protestant businessman who was father of the youngest

victim, marie wilson, went on local television. he described holding his daughter's hand as she lay dying. and he astonished the audience by saying it was essential that the bombers be forgiven. >> i bear no ill-will to anybody, nor does my wife. i prayed for them last night, sincerely. and i hope i get the grace to continue to do so." >> here was somebody who had lost so much, both in terms of his own physical health, but in terms of family. it was electric. forgiveness is, like all grace, it's a gift. i mean, he was extraordinarily graced, you might say. >> gordon wilson's example led to a surge of efforts at reconciling the town's communities. there were other efforts, too, over the years like this local branch of the ulster project, which focuses on young people.

♪ they're rehearsing for a forthcoming fund-raiser concert to be held when the world's eyes have turned toward enniskillen for the g-8 summit. it's been an unseasonably wet and cold spring and early summer in enniskillen as the area has been preparing to greet the world's top eight leaders. but the warmth of cooperation and reconciliation shows no sign of cooling between the area's two main faith and cultural traditions, exemplified by the protestant cathedral right here and its uncommonly close neighbor, the catholic church just across the street. bridge-building has not been easy. northern ireland's divisions have run very deep, with the onset of violence in the late 1960s onward, and even through the peace-making negotiations of recent years, notably the multiparty good friday agreement, sied in 1998. tony blair led that effort as

british prime minister, and united states envoy george mitchell chaired the talks. but even since that breakthrough for peace, there have been and still are sectarian confrontations. in enniskillen, the two population groups still largely live separately, often with signs of their differences, flags, emblems, and graffiti, defiantly marking out their territories. cross-community activists, like james mcloughlin of the ulster project, know they are taking small steps, but valuable ones. and their work is most effective with the much younger set. >> they're not as blinkered as maybe older teenagers or people of my age group would be. >> it's the school uniforms that mark out the faith of these young people. predominantly green for catholics, predominantly blue for protestants. the project demands cooperation regardless of background, and can even mean the beginnings of

friendship. >> after the first three or four weeks you'll see two or three of them hanging around town together. that traditionally wouldn't have happened because one goes to one school and one goes to another. >> one big incentive getting youngsters involved is an annual trip to the united states, where for a month they will get to experience a society where sectarian divisions are rarely so dominant as at home. >> the activities that we do we hope will snowball, and then as we travel to the airport to fly to america, they're one group. >> mcloughlin himself was in the group that traveled over for their us visit twelve years ago. >> it was truly a life-changing experience for me. the ulster project allowed me to take those blinkers off, those blinkers of society, and see that the other side were no different. >> a boost for enniskillen's bridge-building came from britain's queen elizabeth. while celebrating her 50 years on the throne last year, she visited the town for a religious service. now, a work of art commemorating that event is arriving.

it was created by heck for mcdonnell, one of ireland's leading painters, and it's on its way to be displayed at the international summit. >> you have the community of enniskillen coming together. >> the service began in the protestant cathedral, but the queen then led the congregation across the street to continue in the catholic parish church, and she was welcomed by father o'reilly. >> he is there representing this community which has been at loggerheads with all that's gone on in northern ireland. >> she represents monarchy from the point of view of history. it's a way that people do still feel here, in the same way as the flag can be for some an abrasive kind of symbol. >> but enniskillen's bridge-builders, including many roman catholics, chose to see things differently. in this case the queen came to represent if not political unity then at least some essential affinity.

>> she very powerfully brought to visibility the fact that we are one community. we are neighbors to one another. >> so as the world's most powerful leaders descend upon this quiet but once troubled spot, local people, including the minister at gordon wilson's own place of worship, feel they may even have some lessons to offer. >> if g-8 folk could catch something of what has happened in enniskillen and go out into the world with a message of grace and the potential through their decisions to bring a better life to everyone, that's something to be applauded and encouraged, and we'd love to see that happen. >> at the very least, enniskillen's people can feel, probably with some cause, that their hometown's story has made it an appropriate place now in which solutions to severe disagreements might be found. for "religion & ethics news weekly," i'm david tereshchuk in enniskillen, northern ireland.

finally, as pope francis gets ready to mark the first 100 days of his papacy, he met on friday with archbishop of canterbury justin welby, who is about to mark his first 100 days as leader of the anglican communion. they discussed how to improve relations between their two christian bodies, which have been divided since the time of henry viii. that's our program for now. i'm bob abernethy. you can follow us on twitter and facebook. and, check out our newly-redesigned website, where we always have much more, including additional excerpts of kim lawton's interview with russell moore. audio and video podcasts of this program are also available. join us at pbs.org. as we leave you, music from the southern baptist convention meeting in houston this week.

major funding for "religion and ethics newsweekly" is provided by the lili endowment, an indianapolis based private family foundation dedicated to its founders' interests in religion, community development, and education. additional funding also provided by mutual of america, designing customized individual and group retirement products. that's why we're your retirement company. and the corporation for public broadcasting.

tavis: good evening.

from los angeles, i am tavis a conversationthe presiden with richard haass. immigration and jobs and our crippling infrastructure. he lays out the argument in his latest text. we are glad you joined us. a conversation with richard haass coming up right now. day and ieautiful can't stop myself from smiling ♪ ♪ and i know there is no denying ♪ hear this boy complaining ♪ ♪ it's a beautiful day ♪

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. tavis: richard haass maintains the biggest threat to national security does not come from abroad but rather from decades of internal neglect in terms of our schools, our aging infrastructure, and immigration policies. in his new text, the case for putting america's house in order. until or restore the economic power of this nation, america will be overreaching a broad and underperforming -- and underperforming at home. good to have you back on this program. >> great. glad to