three guests join me to talk about the root of its appeal and the direction it's heading. michael white is the chef owner of new york's restaurants marea and costate. he's a leading italian chef. mario carbone is a chef owner of three of the hottest restaurants in manhattan, or the reesesy italian specialties, parm, and the brand new carbone. and kate krader is the restaurant editor of "food & wine" magazine. i'm pleased to have them all. kate, i want to start with you. you have been a new york restaurant observer for as long as i've known you and an incredibly knowledgeable one at that. when did you look around in this city and say "wow. italian food has stolen the stage from french"? >> well, i think when italian food really started it just seemed like a tidal wave in the city is when a restaurant opened in tribeca, the chef is andrew cremilini and he made his name at cafe boloud which is a french

leaning restaurant, in fact, mario carbone worked there. but he was known as a french chef and then he went down to tribeca and took over a sort of failed restaurant space and opened la canda verde and served food everybody wanted to eat and there were super important italian restaurants in new york city before then but i think that sort of changed the way that everybody all of a sudden wanted to do italian style roast chicken and pasta. >> bruni: michael, would you agree with that or set it at a different date, restaurant, chef? >> i think for the new wave of restaurants as kate is speaking of italian restaurants that are very, very, if you will italian shabby chic, somewhat of a trat rhea but more americanized, that wave started four or five years ago. the real wave of italian food that i started with in 2002 and previous to that as bobo in early '98, i think that's

another turning point of italian food. how we thought about it in the levels. but all this -- if bobo wouldn't have been there and the restaurants proceeding that, locondo, it evolved into a -- with american sensibility, an italian restaurant with american sensibility. a big restaurant, fantastic products and italian ingredient thought process. >> bruni: why for so long is french seen as the cuisine you had to do if you were serious about cooking. you had to train in france. was that a fair assumption for people to make or were we according french too much respect, mash owe? >> i don't think we were giving it too much respect. i think it was totally in line. probably what happened was that they were award-winning restaurants. they were the star winning restaurants. they were the restaurants that were en vogue. they were the restaurants being named on wall street where they rattle off the names like the big boy french restaurants of the '80s were the talked-about places. that was what was in.

that was the trend. that's what's winning awards, those were the celebrities chefs of the moment. >> rose:. >> bruni: and italian didn't have the respect it had today. >> it was a chef-oriented cuisine but -- i think italian was seen as a grandmother cuisine and french was a chef-oriented cuisine. >> i think more than anything i think french because both mario and i and chefs of our peers, we were ought taught in the french brigade system where there is a -- you know there's isou chef, the preparation. but the whole way of going about to go to school, whether it's the culinary institute of america, it's based on the french way of cooking and leadership? the kitchen if you will. so that had something to do with the -- not rustic ingredients but using very expensive ingredients such as a few gri, duck and caviar. so we came to a point as we touched before that it's kind of

slowed down to a certain point that italian is this food that is the ethnic food of choice all around the world. >> bruni: when did you have your epiphany that italian could be as rigorous, as impressive as french? that it wasn't a second-rate, it wasn't just olive garden. apologies to the olive garden. when in your life was -- what meal was it, what age was it when you said "italian is worth my energy and effort"? >> i grew up in the midwest and when went out for dinner it would either be cantonese cuisine or fantastic italian cuisine. those were two ethnic choices that were there. n there's so much more. it was that time when i went to work and i knew this but i went to work at a restaurant called spiagia --. >> bruni: in chicago. >> in chicago. very ground breaking restaurant that started cooking italian food. when i talk about italian -- this is a very large discussion about whether it's italian, italian american, so on, so fort

it was the end of knew vessel cuisine in the late '80s, i started in 1991 so it was risotto and bell general endive and it was an amazing experience for me and i got the bug there and never left it. >> kate, you were mentioning these ingredients and we talk about the respect for and purity of ingredients. do you think there are ways we eat right now that are so consistent with ma what makes italian food special that that's the explanation for why it's so enduringly popular and now sort of the default upscale cuisine of choice? >> well, i think that it's such a -- we're so addicted to comfort food now and chefs are having so much fun with it. i think one reason it's so exciting to eat italian food now and has been for a couple years is that chefs have discovered things like pasta extruders and there's a chef in st. louis at a restaurant called pistoria who is making his own alphabet pasta. it's so great that you have an

opportunity to do something like that and like wise i think chefs are having fun with pizzas and they're geeking out on what kind of flour they use or they have, like, these pizza ovens that are you know, like they're cars. they sort of deck them out like that. and so i think that --. >> bruni: there's almost a whole fetishism to it. >> exactly. fetishism is a good word. but i also think that that chefs like these two great chefs are pushing the boundaries and doing cool things with them. like i remember i think you were playing around with ramen and doing peppe ramen and i think michael's done extraordinary thing first at marea and now at costate and it's fun to see the boundaries being pushed. for a while it was so purist oriented. >>. >> bruni: one of the reasons i wanted to have you two gentlemen on -- >> i knew that was why. >> bruni: i have to say, it's disappointing to be sitting at a table near each of you and not be eating food that you've cooked for me so you've let me down a little bit.

you've opened many restaurants recently, both of you. you opened these restaurants chat italian have been popular for a while. let's talk about torrisi italian specialties which you opened in the last days of 2009. how high was the bar to do something different and how did you come up with an italian restaurant that was going to do something different from this bevy of italian restaurants already having swept through manhattan? >> well, my oorjnal business partner, or the reesesy, we set the bar, i think, for ourselves. we had amazing mentors, daniel, mario, wily, we had the best mentors you could possibly have and then all we knew was we had this need inside of us to do something on our own and we pretty much set out to do that before figuring out what that was. and we learned and taught ourselves what that was along the way and the first set of menus we sat and wrote were pretty much directly related to our old bosses and we'd look at them and it would be our first

default and then we'd realize, wait a minute, we weren't born in italy. this isn't our food. we started writing this regional italian food that i know so well through mario and so on and so forth and we had this epiphany that hey, we're from new york. we're italian americans and for so long that was looked down on during this tidal wave of -- just the italian title wave. >> right, are we going to do piedmont, poulia? >> it opened my eyes to it when i was working with those regions and restaurants. but we came to this kind of italian american epiphany that that's who we were and to do something, whatever it was that was really true to us. >> bruni: you wanted to do food that could be called italian but not be called in italy. food of downtown manhattan. >> so we said we're going to

stop bringing in ingredients outside america. we're going to make it with american ingredients and we believe that's the truest sense of italian cooking-- or any sort of regional cuisine. use what you have around you and the techniques that you've learned from that country and make something new. >> bruni: but you also did something that always captured my imagination. you decided the whole concept of terwar was wrong. it didn't need to mean a patch of soil but the neighborhood. you'd grown up in nakdz that had chinese next to italian, jamaican beef pattis in a pizzeria. talk about a ditch that was the fruit of imagining that sort of conjoining of two ethnic traditions that, in manhattan, do occupy the same terrer. >> we were envious of these chefs that had gardens in the backyard and they could sniff the greens and they had free range animals and you look at renee and things he has around him that he's forced himself to

use. well, we're on prince and mull bury. will let's force ourselves to use the neighborhoods. okay, well, can't go pick anything but i have chinese sausage down the block and i can go down into the lower east side and get mat sew that got made this morning and teach yourself mow to make new food. and it was exciting. and i remember we did a dish was that was curry cavateli this was jamaican beef patti ragu. >> i rather liked that dish. (laughter) >> i grew up in queens where the lunch ladies were jamaican so we were eating beef patties for lunch as kids, that's what they were serving us in public schools so i remember falling in love with the beef patti and it was always served -- if you go and buy one like golden crust is a great one, you get has been narrow sauce. so you have cur reed cavatelli, then the curry goat aspect, the other side of it. there was three parts of this

dish, curried get to, beef patti it was my childhood. there was like three different things that happened. >> bruni: i can say as someone who's eating it, i feel like someone eating something italian. >> at the end of the day that's what you get. hopefully you get as a customer is this dish of just heartwarming food, it's a new flavor profile but it'ss no stall jim at the same time. it pulls at you in several different directions and that's when something successful at stories zi. >> bruni: not so longer after that you opened marea which is an italian seafood restaurant which, like torrisi, is a remarkable place to eat. as you put that together, how did you say to yourself, "okay, italy's all over the place, i need do something distinctive." what's the thought process behind marea? >> what mario does and his team is very much italian thought process. you know fact that you're using

ingredients. at marea we -- we do many, many dishes that are very italian but could you couldn't find in the italy because we talk about the flavors that we do, whether it wiese the cruda, we'll saute eschar role with garl lick and chilis like you have in the rome but then we'll blend it with extra virgin olive oil and we'll call it oyster crema and serve wilt artichoke, shaved artichokes so if you put this in your mouth you have a sensation of eating this kind of -- you know, the flavors of escarole and burned garlic and anchovies as well. things you think of as italian but you could travel italy all over and you would never see something like that. but at marea we would never go outside of the bounds of what is available in italy, if you will. >> bruni: you're mostly focusing on the north of the country this. >> well, we do things from coastline. >> bruni: marea means tide.

>> tide in ialian. so all the way down to sicily and the fact of using cous cous and all these separate ingredients, people that think italian food of being one type of food and that's really what we grew up with. i grew up with italian american as well but if you go into the austro-hungarian empire and we start talking about it in that sense of wienerschnitzel, mil, these are italian but they are also austrian, also german and it's the same thing. at marea we use fantastic italian ingredients, we use local ingredients. but we really stay true to the thought process of italian to a certain point. for example, we use cheese with seafood which is considered a faux pas to some extent but at marea we push the boundaries of what italian can be but we would

never use coriander or cilantro. it has to exist in that area. >> bruni: do you think italy is an inexhaustible lardner terms of the country? >> i think people are very interested it. when i got to meet michael it was when we did a story in "food & wine" about a region that i'd never heard about before -- >> we covered an earthquake there once. >> so you know it. but it was -- i feel like it's -- you find these different regions you don't know about and they provide you with all these, like, great sounding dishes and cool ingredients and so, yeah, i feel like -- just when you think off sense of southern italy you get to deep go deep on some part of sicily. >> one of the things important with mario and myself is we didn't grow up in italy and therefore we don't take the italian food for granted. we think about in the different ways. >> bruni: nor are you slaves to a certain tradition. >> exactly. i am more of a slave to a region

in the north of italy where we do do tortellini, all these things are not so conducive for hot summers. >> bruni: let's turn to your newest restaurant, carbone. i feel almost bad we're talking about it because viewers will think i want to go and it's one of the hardest tables to score in mat hat tan. you are actually doing the food you grew up with. the italian american food that italians almost had to move past to get respect you're say nothing, we don't have to move past it, we just revisit it with greater standards and more ingenuity, right? you're making a caesar salad for $17, $17. >> yeah. and it's -- the restaurant that i wanted to build that is carbone is the fancy restaurant i grew up going to, right? there's a handful of them that still exist and they're fabulous and i love to go to them. >> bruni: but not as good as yours. >> i wanted to make a newer one

because i wanted to make sure this thing stood the test of however much longer because i'm not sure how long these are going to be open when the generations get passed on again and again so my partners and myself wanted to open a new one and we got that great old space in a restaurant that used to be there for a hundred years and the bones of the building are amazing and we started in a great place and i had -- >> rocco's. like a red and white -- >> you almost expect to see sinatro r.a. in the corner booth when you walk in. >> we in and we were like this is it. we're going do this place. and i had a vivid memory of those joints that i went to for confirmation, communion and you get the big menu and you're in the fancy -- >> and that means serving certain dishes. but how do you make the dishes special enough to be worthy of regard and be worthy of --

>> you start with the dishes that you say have to be on this menu. we're like okay, chicken scarp has to be on this menu and we have to figure out how to make it great. you care about each one of the ingredients and care about how each one of them is prepared and treated. that's what we do at carbone is that i don't stray. it's not torrisi. it's completely inverted. i don't stray from the box. we play inside the box. here's the box, it's italian american fine dining. if mrs. wilson in the dining room orders a chicken scarp yellow and there's an odd ingredient in it this is something people have eaten all the time. curry cavetelli has never been eaten before. >> bruni: so mrs. wilson has to recognize it and understand why she's paying $30 for it. that seems like a tough needle to thread. >> it was not easy. i realize how difficult it was when it opened and i was like oh this is really hard. i'm giving people food that

they've eaten hundreds of times before. >> i was surprised when i went there i think it's rigatoni vodka. i think of any pasta allah vodka which i don't recall ever finding in italy, do you? >> we both live there and i think of that have as a pasta dish although americans who know nothing make and i thought it was a guilty pleasure. then i go to carbone, it's a fantastic dish. what are you doing to rigatoni vodka to elevate it to that level? >> we do very little and a lot at the same time. we care enough about it, that's an extruded pasta. >> you're also playing with spices. that's a spicy, spicy -- >> it is a spicy dish and at carbone as opposed to torrisi we do import ingredients because it's important so we use a calabrean chili paste that i'm infatuated with. it's a fresh tomato compote, chunky tomato sauce. a french technique of cooking

onions called sue'd have where it's just sliced white onions cooked low all day in butter and that goes in with tomato and the chili and -- >> i think of you to two guys i think of these sorts of efforts to bring italian restaurants to places they haven't been. you opened i fiori, now you have an italian steak house. what is an italian steak house? >> we treat the cuts of meet as if you were in romagnia. we season them with rosemary salt, a mixture of kosher salt, lemon peel, black pepper. some that impart this is flavor we're using. also extremely aged meat from the midwest of america, so we're using cuts. the restaurant is called costada and the namesake cut is a rib eye.

so that's the main steak and we're treating it in italian way. we're also make manager, many hand made pastas as well. so it's very much a marriage of marea and costate is to meat. the. >> bruni: is the sky the limit? when you look around the country, do you see things happening with italian restaurants and food that suggest this can go on and on and people can keep finding new iteration? >> it's amazing. if i think back to going to torrisi and the first time i went there the first thing you get is this warm mozzarella, just made mozzarella with this incredible garlic bread and i'm not sure how you make it. i think it involves some really cool techniques and whatever ingredients you got in little italy. but that makes me think anything you turn your attention to --. >> bruni: what are things you've seen around the country. i know you travel a lot when it comes to italian restaurants in other cities. >> i think one of the most -- i think another fantastic italian

restaurant in this conversation ifosca food and wine in boulder. and the chef there came up -- he worked at the french laundry but became obsessed with this region called freuli, which is in the north part. so it lets you dig into austrian and it's not -- >> slovenia. >> precisely. >> bruni: you mentioned french-trained chefs. we've seen a lot of them that. people who have cooked in one genre but almost like they're not complete until they try italian. i think you were telling me that april bouncio who is so associated with english gastric pub food is going to open an italian foot restaurant. >> you guys come to it so honestly but someone like april who i think can do anything, it's funny to think of her turning to tackle italian food >> she owns sfoted pig and now she's going to do italian.

>> and river cafe in london which is a fine, fine italian restaurant. >> that's true. but we paerd paul cahan, one of the great chefs in chicago, he has black bird, he's opening up an italian restaurant in chicago later this year. even just randomedly there are these two guys in a restaurant, that part of m.p. called tribeye and they're going crazy avant-garde food and they opened up a pizza place called "the pig ate my pizza." i think that's what it's called and people asked them why and this this guy said-- i hope he was joking. he said "we're fat and love pizza. so i hope people -- so people have different reasons. >> bruni: i was going to mention you said paul is italian. that's why i have him as one of the cooks in my kitchen. so now i know why. >> now we know why! stealing secrets. >> bruni: we have all these

chefs going italian and meanwhile we have italy which is i'm told one of the most popular tourist aattractions in new york an italian food supermarket. we have no eat-a-france. the we can get all those products. french products, whether you're going to a fairway or whole foods. those are available. >> i think the great part about eat-a-ly is it's there. the finest of all those products are there under one roof. >> it does go back to what you're talking about before just how all encompassingly popular italian foot because i don't think an eat-a-france or eat-a-spain would sustain people's attention far long. >> bruni: but i have a theory, i'm wondering what you think of this, that italian food, when we're talking about the diners, that italian food doesn't intimidate them the way french food sometimes did. do you think that's true?

>> i think very much. >> and why? >> you spoke before about comfort food. the fact that it's comfort food. you know what's on your plate when you looking at it. that's why -- there's so much italian food. whether it's the shabby sheik cooking. but it's very italian in thought process in the sense that you see the pork chop or the ribbons of cucumber or whatever's marinated on the plate. when you're looking at french food it's more complex and people are a little bit apprehensive. >> and you can have a platter of polenta, a platter of -- >> just the reality of eating together. >> and nostalgia. i think when you look back at things like that chain pizzeria being italian, chef boy ar dee being italian. >> are we really talking about chef boyardee? >> (laughter) $we should talk about progresso, that's part of the culture of going through all 50 states. that's a real thing. >> olive garden.

>> there's a template of affection there. >>s no nostalgic comfort. >> going to an italian american restaurant you'll see a lemon peel on the side of espresso. you would never see that in italy. they were toasting the grains of coffee in a saute pan and it became a little acrid so they would squeeze lemon oil and it would cut that. so there's really cool nuances that you -- about the italian american kitchen which he knows better than all of us which i think is really cool. >> bruni: let me ask you a final question. one each. michael. for a viewer who's never been to one of their restaurants, that is going to pick one of those restaurants and will come in and have one dish that you're just hugely proud of and you think shows what you can do and what you're about, what's that dish and describe it for us? >> >> i'm sure they probably think which one i'm going say. there's a handful of dishes that

are -- this is really tough. >> i would have to say -- i would have to say -- oh, man, that's hard. i would say lobster or ifusilli with bone marrow. >> that was a cheat! >> i got them boat out. >> bruni: those are both at marea? >> yes. and that's the other thing the italian people we do around the city and wherever we're going is we -- each restaurant is -- has an identity to itself and we don't do those dishes elsewhere. >> these are the restaurants in al a marea we're. >> bruni: mario, i'm still going to hold you the rule. >> one? >> bruni: one you haven't talked about that captures your philosophy and what you want to do and can do. >> i think a super super simple one that says a lot is scampi a

la scampi. >> it's like a palindrome or something. >> exactly. they're live from scotland that come in and they're broiled in the american way, garlic, parsley, butter. that's all it is is just six split open scampi with a lemon wrapped in cheese cloth and the white wynegar lick butter sauce and it's the italian american. >> you brought us some, awesome. let's try it right now. >> it says so much about what we do as a company. >> bruni: michael white, thank you. mario carbone, kate krader, thank you for being with us. i'm frank bruni, i've been sitting in for charlie rose today. >> i'm a.o. scott of the "new york times" sitting in for charlie rose who is off on assignment. tonight we'll look at summer movies and the state of the movie industry and audience. joining me dana stevens of slait magazine, alison bailes and

david denby of the "new yorker." i'm pleased to have them at this table and welcome. >> thank you. pleased to be here. >> i'm pleased to be sitting in this seat at this table. >> do you feel powerful? >> well, i feel like i need ask you a lot of questions so let's get right to it. we've all seen a lot of movies this summer. it's always to me a kind of weird time of year because there are a lot of good movies that tend to be smaller movies and there are enormous every weekend commercial bee moths that come into the multiplexs. and i sometimes feel and hear from my own readers that -- and people on twiter that we critics are not entirely relevant to this business or experience of the blockbuster movies. are we -- do we have anything to contribute, to say when we have

t lone ranger or "pacific rim" or "world war z"? >> well, we sort. we sort out and try to establish what's the exciting news in digital. i liked "world war z" a lot. i think some had -- it was jolting and scary and strange. an i saw it with a bunch of 50-year-olds and 60-year-olds and it occurred to me maybe kids used to zombie movies wouldn't be as moved as much as i was. but, yes, so we can say this one works, this one doesn't and these are the reasons why. in other words, what we always did. >> daniel, what do you think has worked and hasn't? one what's one that did work? >> i agree on "world war z" to an extent. i think big bludgeoning blockbusters-- because there has to be one every weekend-- that we're a bit painted into a corner. but "world war z" was enjoyable. i-- unlike most critics and audiences-- really enjoyed "white house down" which i think

achieved some sort of comp glory almost a pauler have hoeven playfulness that i liked. but i don't think there's been a -- is it called "rise of the planet of the apes" a few summers ago that comes along and surprises you with character and -- >> i think that's "world war z" because i don't think you can say "world war z" is a zombie movie typically. they don't feature very much the way they do in the t.v. show "the walking dead." to me it was like a contagion, that kind of film. or "outbreak." very scary for families and how you protect your family. >> but it's sort of a cashet film whereas this there is digital invention that you -- astounding things with the zombies crawling up over -- >> and the wide shots of the zombies are just this massive hoard of -- >> until you get to the that research facility. what i liked about "world war z"-- which i didn't love as much

i think, as you guys did and wish i had liked a little better-- but what i did like was the way that it flipped the usual structure of these movies which get bigger and bigger and bigger and have to end with the most gigantic and often kind of the dullest -- you know, the city is getting destroyed, the robots are fighting or spock and khan are slugging it out on this flying platform or whatever it is. this one went the other way. it had the massive destruction at the beginning and the last 30 or so minutes were a very intense sealed in horror movie. >> the sequence they reshot when the original ending didn't work. it must have been. >> i think it might have been. >> it cost a lot of money. >> and it ended-- not to spoil it for anyone-- with brad pitt just walking quietly down a hallway sneaking past the zombies. >> and he does face that one zombie, there's something very touching and sympathetic about the guy and brad pitt isn't

scared of him while he has a kind of shield. well, we are giving too much away. but he faces them -- >> it n four weeks everyone will have forgotten about it. >> that was the result of the troubled production history. it's a decrescendo at the end which makes it fresh but that was because they had -- they took out a whole act that would have been crescendoing up to tin evidentable brad pitt versus the zombies battle atop of a skyscraper. >> and holds to these -- >> can i just throw out some numbers here for our -- because i think our viewers should know what in the world we're talking about because, you know, i'm a brok record or a stuck digital loop, whatever the right phrase is. i think this business model is insane and destructive. but just the three big flops that everyone in hollywood is worried about. "the lone ranger" cost $250 million. "white house down" $150. you had $100 million on top of

production costs at least for marketing. so i come up with an outlay of $800 million. so far the total gross, thee ratry cal gross worldwide is $340 on all of those and, of course, theaters take 45% of the $340. we are talking about a $600 million shortfall here so far. >> on those -- >> on those three. and "pacific rim", with you know the non-critical movie press reads all of these advance tracking polls and they are setting that up for failure. >> that was good. now if i was going to come out and cheer lead for a big loud action movie in 3-d i thought that one had a kind of pulpy vitality. it managed to be silly and serious in the right balance and i think gee yarrow del toro has

a great visual imagination and enthusiasm for the genre in this kind of genre. >> which "man of steel" had none of. two and a half hours of taking itself so seriously, it was dead boring whereas i think that "pacific rim" i also enjoyed it perhaps more than i'm proud of admitting but when the -- when you first see those robots and the monsters fighting it was amazing! however, by the fourth fight at the end of the film i had grown a little fatigued by the same images. >> there's a lot of the robots and dinosaurs. >> that movie has been set up for failure already. it hasn't opened yet and it cost $18 million. but these tracking polls suggest there's very little awareness. well, it's not a franchise.

we're not even talking about little movies. but not in this context. you see what i'm getting at. it's a closed circle and there are more "pirates of the caribbean" movies even though jerry bruckheimer has lost his touch and more "terminator" movies and it rolls on and on. >> let me ask you. this is something that i think as critics we may have to grapple with or think about a little what do you all think about the fact that so much awareness of and news about the commercial fates of these movies get woven into the discussion of them. >> it's too bad, i think. >> it's strange. my kids and their friends can quote probably the same numbers that you did. everyone knows after the first weekend -- i mean, i didn't have any great love for "lone ranger" but i felt bad it was getting pounded on and -- >> i think people are mistaking the numbers for the yardstick of quality which is a problem because if the film only makes however million million dollars

you said before midnight made, it made $6 million, i'm sure we all loved it, because it's only made $6 million doesn't mean it's a failure or a bad movie. so as cit critics we have to remember we're not analyzing the box office and we're analyzing whether a film has value. >> and there's a scapegoating process where "the lone ranger" or "john carter" becomes the lightning rod of the criticism of the industry. >> well, at this time there may be four of these catastrophes financially. which no other business would put up with, by the way. >> just to play a little bit of devil's advocate, you say that the business model is broken and dysfunctional. on the other hand it does seems this built into the cycle that it's kind of boom and boost that every summer there are some movies that hit big and, you

know, everyone -- all of the people who made them and green lit them pat themselvess on the back for being geniuses and reading the plic and finding the audience and then there are a few that are kind of the scapegoats that everyone can -- >> well, if you've got four or five it's more than a single scapegoat. it's looking like a trend. when steven spielberg and george lucas say on a panel-- as they did two weeks ago-- "there's no room for us in this industry" for the little art films they like to do. (laughs) >> something is screwy. now the irony is that they created this blockbuster thing 35 years ago. >> some of these films do great in europe. i don't know what it is about the europeans. they love the films. the d.v.d. sales some of them may be failures domestically but they go on to make money. we ceci quells. studios won't do sequels unless

they thinkedly there's money in it. "grown ups 2" opens today. (laughter) clearly not a -- bad memory. but clearly the first one made $162 million domestically. so clearly there's a market for this film and they're going to make a sequel and i'm sure they've set it up for the third. >> speaking of comedies, "the heat" that you mentioned before. i saw a rather extraordinary statistic somewhere on the internet recently where someone had put together a list of all of the commercial release this is summer from the big studios. w a female lead character and the list was one movie long and it was "the heat." >> this dramas, come dis across the board. >> this is big commercial movies. but tt's it. two years after "bridesmaids" was supposed to prove to everyone who somehow seemed to doubt it that women could be funny and that funny women could

carry a comedy and make it a hit we have another one. but only one. >> and it's got melissa mccarthy. >> and that's the only context in which such a thing could exist. >> i'm just happy that i loved it so much. i'm happy it worked because i went into it thinking this smacks of "miss congeniality," i was very hesitant about it. loved it. i loved the fact that there were two female leads who-- with the exception of one scene-- their bodies were not focused on at all in the film. and it's not something i usually think about a lot but we didn't have her dressed up in a bikini like a charlie's ann sdwrol go undercover at a strip club or something. i liked that. >> in the one scene it's melissa mccarthy making fun of sandra bullock's body. >> and even when they show a bit it's not exploy tatdive. >> i really wish i shared your love for "the heat." i wanted to like it because i'm glad there's one film with

female leads. i didn't think it was funny enough. it had that comedy problem that so many summer comedies do. a few good sketch ideas loosely tied together but not ambitious enough. >> it was 20 minutes too long which is a complain i had about "the internship" about so many of these comedies but i had to say i thought everything that came out of melissa mccarthy's mouth was hysterical and so close to the bone. it was so like "oh, god, i don't know if i should laugh at that." but i did laugh. it is worked for me. >> she's an earth ghashg the making and it's always exciting and funny. she's a danger almost. i don't know, i can't think of anyone quite like that among women comedians going way back. >> who cease so unpredictable. >> and uses her weight brilliantly. our colleague rex reid noticed

she was heavy and announced it to the world. i can't think of anyone who' used violating all of the couture yay ideals and made some of it. she's something to be supported. >> i feel like hollywood hasn't figured out to what to do with. >> i think kristen week is an enormous talent. wooeg. >> i think in the heat they don't want too much jokes at the expense of melissa mccarthy because i felt like in "identity thief" there were a lot of jokes like, oh, a fat woman having sex. that's funny. >> and she was the sexually self-confident and otherwise self-confident one. it was bullock -- it was a great sort of subtle reversal that was happening. >> and bullock was the one who repelled men. i liked that. i found it refreshing. there already always mercifully in the summertime -- and this year it feels more than usual.

i've liked a lot of smaller movies. there have been independent movies and a cup documentaries that i don't know if anyone sells going to see them but i find myself walking out of the screening rooms quite a lot thinking that was pretty good. that was really interesting. >> i feel the same way as you. there are a lot. the smaller studios, they're realizing there's a need for counterprogramming. so we're seeing one every week if not every two weeks. "frulvail station" is a great one. i loved "before midnight." there's more coming up. "way, way back" i thought was a grown-up film. not "grown-ups." so i think they're there if you look for them and are lucky enough to live near cinemas that show them. >> the problem is you're talking about are we irrelevant to big movies? what i'm worried about is we can't draw people to little movies as much as we should like. "before midnight" i think is a

major film if the same film had come out 40 years ago there would have been more excitement. >> this is a sequel, right? >> this is the film with julie delpy and ethan hawke and we've seen them now in their 20s, 30s and 40s and they're not married but they act as a married couple and it's about modern marriage and they have a 30-minute argument after walking through all of the southern peloponnese, the signature walk through of all these they have an argument that is defining as upper middle-class as anything i've seen in movies which is that no one wants to give up anything. no one in modern marriage is going to sacrifice anything to the other person. in other words it's about power.

it's all written out as much as any woody allen film. there's no improvisation but it feels electrifying to me. and right on target and also a little scary, its intensity. i know a lot of men who've said "oh, my god." >> yeah, for a 40-year-old woman with young children in the relationship. i mean it was like watching my life in some ways maybe people don't want to see that when they go to a movie. >> well, how do we get people to see it. >> well, it ravish it had critics but didn't do it well? >> sorry to be the numbers man. $6.5 million so far domestic. >> but we can do our best to get people in but you're comparing "the lone ranger" that spends $150 million on marketing and pro potion and publicity and a film like "before midnight" that probably -- how much money do they have to promote that film? not much. so it's not just our fault. it's money that's driving

>> i think that the people who will appreciate that movie will fine it sooner or later. as the previous two did. they come around every nine years and you sort of have -- this one, you know, when i first heard that it was coming out i thought sflr wasn't there just -- and when -- "before sunset" came around i thought "before sunrise" and there's something about the long arc of this story and of these films thatty think people will keep watching. i think they are part of my generation of some of our generation's experience of ourselves and of movies and romance. >> for example, you have ethan hawke who's a well known name and julie delpy, you can't compare that to a film like "frulvail" station which has expenses but it's a true life

story, doesn't have a big name cast that's the story i feel like will get lost. >> it's the first film by ryan coogler from the bay area based on the case of oscar grant who was shot early in the morning on new year's day in 2009 by a bay area rapid transit police officer and it's a very -- i think it's so chilling and upsetting to watch while the george zimmerman trial is going on and it begins with the cell phone video that was taken of the actual crime. but then it goes, i thought, in a really interesting direction with a wonderful performance in it by michael b. jordan who fans of "the wire" and "friday night lights" be no well that kind of pushes aside the politics of the story for a while and focuses on

this young man's life and the choices that he's made and does not make him at all a saint or doesn't demonize him, they are. you feel by the end of the movie that you know this person, which makes it all the more wrenching and what you've known throughout is going to happen actually happens. >> i think "fruitvail station" is very powerful. >> another one i would like to speak up for is "the bling ring" which got publicity when it open and has fallen away from view and when i talked to people about it they're put off by the subject. this is a movie about the kids in the san fernando valley who went into the house of mock celebrities and stole their money. >> those are real celebrities! there's no such thing as mock celebrities! >> well, who are the celebrities? the kids or the people that they're stealing from? and it does get into something ghastly and awful about this kind of insane loop of

celebrities becoming celebrities by stealing from other celebrities. anyway i think -- what people wanted from it was a more judgmental or moralistic or -- what i wanted from it was possibly a -- from a more satirical point of view and it's neutral but very, very smart and it's beautifully made. i don't know if people noticed the level of craft that sofia coppola has achieved at this point. the cutting is perfect. >> i thought it was the most boring film. and it's 88 minutes or something and i thought -- felt as long as "man of steel" to me. it was so repetitive. they just kept showing these girls and one young man going into these homes and i just thought it was the same scene over and over again without any real advance. >> do you want to know what makes people tick? >> the film doesn't explain what makes them tick. it doesn't even try and get beneath what makes them tick. i felt she ended up celebrating

what she was supposedly criticizing. >> i think it's overphrased but i think that in general about sofia coppola. i agreey from about her craftsmanship and the film is shot by a late cinematographer and it looks incredible, sounds beautiful. i'm not sure what she's trying to say other than stealing from lindsay lohan is not as worthwhile -- it a reality t.v. show. >> it's not just about those bunch of dopes, it's about what's happening. >> what's striking to me is there's this feeling of emptiness and drift on these kids' lives but on the other hand there's luxury and beauty and pleasure that sort of surrounds and seduces them. >> but the film let it become like like a louis vuitton handbag. you watch the film and you say "i want that life-style." >> well, you have emma watson showing you what -- the end

result of all of this is is someone who has no self whatsoever. it's all just presentation. it's a ghastly new kind of teenager which let us hope none of our children turn into. >> emma wattson does give a memorable performance but i thought the social satire when we join'm what ma watson and her mother played by lessly mann and the family with the upside down values system that became too theme math attic. >> each of you, a recommendation of one a movie that people may not be aware of that's opened or coming up if you've seen it with -- so that we can be helpful and of some use to folks who don't necessarily want to just follow the herd to them. >> well we didn't talk about a movie that's opened already and i think will be remiss if we didn't mention that one. >> as far as things coming out, i mean i've only seen small

films like "ain't them bodies saints" which i thought was beautiful by casey affleck. "lovelace" is a cool '70s slice of pornography. linda lovelace's story with amanda say fred. "face of love" seyfried. >> "blue jasmine, woody allen's movie. it's a riff on "streetcar" and i think a very successful one. i know there are going to be a lot of literal minded speak who will spend their liar life matching up the film and the play. >> one film that i'm excited to come out is something that's already opened if i want to go small have any of you seen "fill

void" the israeli film. >> how about "mudd"? >> "mudd's" been around. i would add "museum hours" a little odd movie shot inside a museum in vienna, a very unusual and i thought lovely film. so while there's more to talk about, thank you all. you've made it very easy and pleasant to sit in this chair with the blue pieces of paper and thank you for watching. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> i'm miranda esmonde-white. join me in jamaica to stretch and strengthen all 600 muscles in your body. >> "classical stretch" is made possible in part by... iberostar hotels and resorts, with beachfront resorts around the world. each resort features extensive gardens and large swimming pools with maximum respect for the surrounding environment. iberostar hotels and resorts. jamaica--once you go, you know. american airlines, traveling to over 250 cities in 40 countries. [captioning made possible by friends of nci]

>> so let's get started, a little warm-up. deep-breathe. remember, when you breathe out, you have to breathe in. so just make sure that you're always...exhaling. change your arms. now relax the shoulder joint. relax the elbow joint. so things really swing. 3, 4, 5. make sure that you've got very relaxed fingers, and the rest of your arm will be relaxed. 6. now you're gonna go two and one big. two half, half big. and again. that's 4 times

through. big circle. two small, one big. use your legs as pumps to pump the blood through your body. other arm. 2. up. down. half. half. and keep the fingers relaxed because when we want to get a good workout, you have to get the muscles with the blood flowing. the blood doesn't flow in tight muscles. that's why you have to start relaxed. use your legs. 5, 6, 7. arms up. pull. now pull in your stomach. pull in your stomach as tight as you can. squeeze your leg muscles. so tighten your leg muscles. and now squeeze your bum. open the arms. lift the shoulders. press the arms out. press. press. shoulders up. breathing in, lengthen it out.