and president obama had signal he wants the $1.3 billion to stay in place for egypt. arab countries are pledging billions of dollars in aid to bolster egypt's economy. the united arab, the uae with the loan of $2 billion and a grant of $1 billion. saudi arabia of $3 billion. and for much needed fuel and an additional $2 billion. >> question, is egypt vital to u.s. interest? pat buchanan. >> who governs egypt is not vital because we would not send american troops, whether it was military or morsi ruling them. we do have national interest there. they conflict with our democratic ideals. whatever you say about it, the muslim brotherhood played by america's rules. they won the parliament fair and square. then with america's blessing, the egyptian military with american weapons overthrew the elected government of egypt. i mean, we have, america is

reviled almost by both sides in this whole conflict. however, the military and the muslim brotherhood are the only two organizations that have the power and authority and ability to run egypt. the place is a mess. what the americans should do now, having done what we done is push as hard as we can for the early elections and consider an early exit. >> eleanor. >> egypt is key in keeping the peace with israel. for starters, israel being a key ally. and an important region in the world. we are not as dependent for oil, but we still need to be a major player there. and the phrase that i latched on to is people's cue. there were millions of people in the streets. more than 22 million people signed a petition wanting morsi out of power. that's more than a quarter of the country. the alternative to the military stepping in would have been rule. they were ready to storm the palace. i see this as a temporary

takeover by the military. i think they are saying mostly the right things. the firing obviously, on the morsi protest was very bad. but they need to reach out and include the muslim brotherhood in whatever government evolved. otherwise you drive them under ground, force them to become violent and you will never get a kind of stable inclusive government. i don't see this as a negative step at all. i think this is a step towards an evolving democracy and a very important country. >> that's very reassuring. >> i'm glad i changed your mind. >> i didn't say that. didn't change my mind, but it is reassuring. susan. >> the problem is, they could be on the verge of a civil war. the military firing on people is leading them down a path to a civil war. the united states is invested upwards of $70 billion in this country since the 1940s. it is from the united states.

it is important strategically. their economy is collapsing. they are potentially on the collapse of a civil war. so it's scary what is happening right now. it's unclear if they are going to be solid elections that will lead to a durable peace in nine months. >> is egypt vital? >> yes, egypt is absolutely vital. let me just say this. while morsi was elected in the democratic way, he wasn't governing in a democratic way. he violated every promise he made to get elected. so he was alienating a lot of people in that country and that is what provoked all of this. the real issue is, morsi led the muslim brotherhood, which was a group who are in opposition to every major national interest in the united states. so in this instance, we were fortunate. i think now we have a chance to work with a different kind of government whom i think will be much more, shall we say,

responsive. >> 50% of the vote, or more than that in the islamists to his right got 25% of the vote. >> yes. >> you have to have the islamist participate. if you're going to have a democracy, participate in many if not all of the governments in the middle east. >> yes, but you are saying if they will be democracies. morsi was not running the country. all of the people who were going to bring in -- >> i don't think -- the u.s. didn't send the army. i think you are with that. not initially the white house said they did not want military action and i think -- >> thrown him out without american support and getting $1.5 billion from here? >> you have no knowledge there was any direct blessing. they would have done that with or without -- >> all right. so relinquish.

>> getting from other countries. >> i want to know whether the isreali embassy is up and flourishing. >> i don't know if it's flourishing. the embassy was attacked. >> why? because let's put it this way, they are not totally friendly to judes in egypt and certainly the muslims. the radical muslims are opposed to not only israel, but jews in general. >> what are you saying about morsi? >> they are glad he's gone. somebody sent me from israel, somebody sent me a cable in which he said, there is a god and thank god he is jewish after this happened. because from israel's point of view, the emergence of morsi and the muslim brother, which would have not have stopped in the country. >> the presumption is absolutely from the united

states. >> i want to -- just a moment. wait a minute. wait a minute. you have been talking about five minutes continuously. i want to know whether the isrealis have drawn some comfort from the high court justices now running the country. >> yes, i think they think he's a reasonable man. he has a year before this situation settles. maybe more than a year. >> let me put it this way. it's going in a better direction. >> exit question. what course of action serves u.s.? maintaining egypt? pat buchanan, keep it short. >> the best course of action would be to maintain military assistance for a while as we phase it out and the isrealis job -- >> phase it out, why? >> the isrealis are maintaining we phase it out because the arab spring is turning into the arab war of all against all. >> maintaining our support, which is far less than other

countries in that region are giving is very important. secondly, this president administration has gotten criticism for standing on the sideline too much when it comes to developments in the middle east. i believe the military would have acted in what i am calling a people's cue, with or without any kind of blessing from the white house. this was not an obama-led takeover. >> by no means. >> helps provide an economic lifeline to giving this money and eventually help them stave off a civil war. that's part of the reason that brought this overthrow. the economy isn't doing well. >> several weeks ago, i predicted the egyptian economy was going to collapse because they run out of foreign exchange. they had no money to pay for food. so they are heading into a tremendous economic crisis and this billion and a half from the united states will help the military, but they are going to get $11 billion from various arab countries and they would not have gotten that if morsi was in power.

so this is going to help egypt maintain itself as a coherent country. so in my judgment, this is the best outcome we could have hoped for. >> where did president obama go? >> he went to cairo? >> why? >> that's a good question. i ask myself that many, many times. he wanted to speak to the arab world in some way. >> i think he mentions in his biography that his close personal friend was an egyptian that he met there or about that time. at any rate, he went there within five months after he was elected president and he gave a speech. was he responsible for the arab spring by reason of the fact he talked to young people there? >> i don't think he was responsible. the arab spring has been brewing for a long time in many of those countries. >> so he didn't catalyst it? there may have been more of a catalyst you indicated. what did you say? mr. zuckerman. issue two, snowden still on the lamb. >> edward snowden is the 30-

year-old information technician who worked in hawaii for hamilton, a military contractor within the national security agency, the nsa. snowden was a mathematician who leaked data, incredible amounts of telephone data and internet data. no one continues to elude the u.s. government, held up at the airport in moscow. he has applied for political asylum in more than two dozen countries. of these, venezuela, and bolivia say he is welcome. russian officials are not comfortable with snowden taking up borders at their airport. the head of russia's international affairs committee sent our exit now. snowden in the form of a treat. quote, venezuela is waiting for

an answer from snowden. this perhaps is his last chance to receive political asylum. unquote. question. what is the remedy? does america need stronger privacy laws? eleanor clift? >> i think snowden has forced the discussion on these programs. so he accomplished his mission. i think the side show of him held up in the airport lacking money and trying to meet with human rights groups and hanging on to wikileaks is over shadowed what the real purpose of the revelations that he produced. and so at this point, i think even those latin american countries, even venezuela in the wake of chavez's death, may not be willing to take him because they have interest in berting relations with the u.s. and he doesn't have a passport. unless he wants to sneak into the moscow airport, how does he get through air space? he looks like he's stuck right

now. >> any indication that russia is changing mind? is this why snowden skipped town? >> 12fbi agents with their guns drawn came in. my son opened the door and they pushed him out of the way at gunpoint and they came upstairs to where my wife was getting dressed and i was in the shower and they pointed guns at her and one of the agents came to the shower and pointed the gun at my head and of course, pulled me out of the shower. >> william spent 40 years at the nsa, the national security agency, where edward snowden also worked. like snowden, benny blue the when i say whistle of data. benny registers his forms internally and for seven years, trying to get upper government as illegal and unconstitutional behavior by the nsa.

>> domestic spying accumulating information and knowledge about the u.s., the entire u.s. population. so i thought of that as a jay edgar hoover on super steroids. it wasn't that he had information and knowledge to leverage the congress. you have information and knowledge to leverage everyone, judges included, in the country. so, that is why i got so concerned. >> the fbi tried to prosecute to leaking to the press. he described, but in the end, he was never charged. two other respected nsa whistle blowers have also surfaced. a 19 year veteran raised his concerns about the nsa invading u.s. citizens privacy rate. drake was indicted under the act. and sentenced to a year of probation. also, more than 30 years at the nsa where he was awarded the nsa second highest honor. suspected of leaking to the new york times. revealing the extent to which

the nsa probes the private lives of american citizens. security was revoked. he and his family were subjected to the embarrassment of a day-long raid of their home and he hasn't had a job in the six years since. >> to my knowledge, u.s.a. today broke this part of the story. in july the 7th issue, for those that may be interested. question, so are these three american public servants, or are they public traders, do you think? susan. >> i think it changes the story. instead of everybody -- it changes the story about snowden who is in the news. hearing about these whistle blowers, you get the picture about why snowden felt like talking to someone and getting it all over the press. because it wasn't being handled the right way when people were trying to come forward. do the thing the right way. look what happened. they had their homes raided. they lost their freedoms. they lost their jobs. the question it raises, whether

we are throwing out our liberty for the sake of causing the next terroristic attack. >> mort. >> let me say, snowden is not a muslim. i want to make that clear. look, seriously, this is one of the most serious things that happened to the united states because we had intelligence on any number of potential attacks on the united states by common consent, 50 of them, okay? i will say what i said before on this program. if we were in a situation where people were able to, where we were unable to interject those attacks. every month or every two months, this country would be totally changed. so i think the government has the right to do what they think is necessary and appropriate under these circumstances to try and protect this country from those kind of attacks. >> totally changed. that is the word. are we going to be totally changed because of our loss of privacy? the point where you question how much it's worth when it

comes to fighting terrorism. >> let me get in there. >> that's not what the issue is. i'm not saying it isn't an issue. but the issue is going to be nothing if we have a series of terrorist attacks in the united states. >> mort, the united states isn't going to restrict the national agency. i don't think it is right to leak things because we have a congress of the united states. we have rules and regulations. but i do respect the fact that they face the music. they go out, they stayed right in the country and said what the government is doing is wrong and they took it. snowden who runs off, he is getting what he deserves. i hope he stays in that airport. >> excuse me, and reading about these three gentleman, they did have a vested interest here in a sense that they had developed a program within the nsa, at least two of them had. they believe could have averted the 9/11 attacks. the head of the agency, tom

haden, at the time ignored it and came up with another, much more extensive program. and so they had, they were really angry that they thought their work was being ignored. they went to congress. they did all the right things, but they are enjoying their freedom now. i think they have a consulting company. >> i think you have it wrong. >> at least one of those three. and i think he is selling clothes for some department store. >> they had paid a price. probably not nearly as much as what mr. snowden found to pay. >> they know the system thoroughly and experienced what snowden has experienced, or vice versa. they have a crisis of conscious as to what to do and they did what they thought was right and they still are a victim. >> they took the consequences, which is what they should do. >> do i have a right as a

white house aid to walk out with secret information and give it out because i don't like what the president is doing? no. >> well, maybe it depends what the president is doing. >> the president ing something wrong, i should take the consequences when i walk out and say here's what is going on. i think it's wrong. >> you know, hollywood writer and director writing in the financial times this week, says obama's domestic surveillance lays the foundation for a future distopia. you know what a distopia is? >> i'll leave you to define it. >> the opposite of the utopia. >> is obama facing a revolt from the left right now? you follow me? >> i don't think so. >> very minor. >> a lot of people had faith and confidence and belief. the idealistic obamaites a

losing their idealism. >> not on this issue. a lot of young people think, what's the big deal? all of this stuff should be out. >> i disagree. people talking about this and pretty much making a laughing stock of the president. >> a big deal for young people. i mean, this privacy stuff with libertarians. >> he, dis appointed for what he was on. >> current issue of the london review of books. >> right. >> it is marvelous writing and he takes the view that what is happening is very dangerous. issue three. u.s., china trade talks. >> high level meetings between the u.s. and chinese. the u.s., china strategic conference with secretary of state, john kerry, and jack speaking for the u.s. the hot button talk of china's

currency. which is why they consider it to be under valued was front and center of the discussion. also, vice president joe biden participated. >> the next step china needs to take for its own economy, having to be in the interest of the united states as well. your own plans call for the kind of changes that take place that are difficult, like here. if they do, they will benefit us both, including free exchange rates, shifting to a consumption led economy, enforcing property rights and renewed innovation. >> did this fifth u.s. china dialogue produce any significant breakthrough? mort zuckerman. >> i don't think so. i think it's helpful. it will be a process. it won't happen in any one great moment. the dialogue between the united states and china on economic matters have dramatically improved and there isn't the sort of lateened hostility that is on either side that makes

the the agreement difficult. >> the shifting, they were all talked about. to me, it seemed more optimistic than past talks had positive outlook. >> give the chinese a suto communist. >> yes, they are communist capitalists. that's why. >> they are natural capitalists. >> absolutely. they are the most hard working people who save themselves. >> what do they have to do because of the established communist echelon. they will keep the facade of communism. >> they are trying to take control. >> the leadership of china also is air capitalistic. they are very interested in doing well. >> why not just come out and say so? >> they have a whole tradition that they have to live up to. called the chinese communist

party. >> they are easing into a full dress -- is it a full dress rehearsal for the real thing? >> they have a will the of people living in poverty. and i want to give the president some credit. that short sleeved summit a month or so ago in california. i think set the stage for these talks. and you know, they didn't do anything concrete, but they come into an accord in reducing pollution and increasing investment. >> the president deserves a lot of credit for the chinese meaning and also for the eu meeting. which is very, very big. huge. that's also going on. >> john, last year the chinese ran a $300 billion trade surplus at the extense of the united states. the largest between any two countries in history. they are cleaning their clocks and they continue to do so. >> do you think that the mood of the country, is it

meloncoly? >> the feeling is in decline, that we aren't the great nation we were under reagan. >> how do you explain the market this week? >> the feds -- >> that is pat's particular vision. he specializes in the west. actually, the economy is getting better. americans -- >> you are scared, you have to run what buchanan said is next. >> quickly. >> you're the expert, but i would say the market is a reflection of us propping things up. >> in which he said, we're going to keep basically low interest rates for a long period of time. >> that's his job, he should be doing that. >> and the immigration rate is so low. >> and the market had a good week, what is the other good news? i can't believe this is coming from you. >> we had bad news in terms of

the regular growth, which is sub 2%. it's less than 2%, despite the biggest fiscal -- >> there are brighter days ahead. >> the future lies ahead. >> predictions, pat, be quick. >> amnesty or path to citizenship will not get out of the house this session or this congress. >> republican only farm bill that strips money for food stamps is dead on arrival in the u.s. senate. >> susan ferrechio. >> offer citizenship for people brought here unlawfully as children. >> the economy is weak enough that the federal reserve board is going to continue quantitative in years to come. >> i predict financial times essay about how president obama is creating a distopia marks the beginning of the end of the infatuation. bye bye.

it could be one very expensive ride. >> first you have to make bail. then pay me to get your car back. >> your insurance premiums will go through the roof. >> my legal fees keep adding up. all tolled end up costing you $10,000. buzzed, busted, and broke. because buzzed driving is drunk driving.

enormous undertaking. that will take a long time. but 10, 20 years from now we'll be at a different level than now not only in terms of understanding but in terms of treatment. >> rose: episode 14 of the charl c.e.o. rose brain series 2 underwin by the siemens foundation coming up.

funding for charlie rose was provided by the following viii. >> additional funding provided by these funder its:. >> from our studios in new york city this is charlie rose.

>> tonight we continue our exploration of our magnificent human brain with a consideration of president obama's new brain initiative. the president announced in april the new effort which seeks to revolutionize our understanding of 9 human brain. he has described the initiative as one of his administration's grand challenges for the 21st century. project has drawn comparisons to the human again only project as well as president kenny-- kennedy's 1961 challenge to land a human on the moon in 10 years. two national student of health directors helping to lead the initiative join us now, story landis, thomas insel and with us are colonelia bargmann of rockefeller university and william newsome of standford. they are co-chairs of the advisory board for the initiative. an once again my cohost is dr. eric kandel. he is a nobel laureate,