and to support their case, they brought 47 white binders of materials, stretched seven linear feet. and i looked at that with a feeling of unbridled joy. >> i bet. [laughter]. they really were doing you a favor. >> oh, my gosh, that was the moment that i thought there is a book in this. look at this. will this is a fascinating history. and what great characters involved in it. so i -- it was -- i know there was a lot of, you know, there's a lot of charge around scientology and it has a reputation of being vindictive and litigious, but actually it was an irresistible story. >> it was a contentious, they were hostile to you? were you arguing nuance? arguing straight black and white facts? what was the tone of the conversation? >> well, we had -- we sent them these 971 fact checking

questions. one of the things that tommy davis had done was to make a pie chart demonstrating that 68% of our questions were false. so -- so i mean they are questions. [laughter]. so -- so i -- so a lot of day was spent in parsing what he meant when he said the question was false. and if i said, you know, something like somebody had soon arrived, what's false about this statement? well, it wasn't soon. it was a week. and oh, okay. >> you are going to argue what soon means. >> yeah. it was a real education for me. >> yeah. >> in how to address a very parsimonious and defensive organization. like scientology. >> yes. >> we all learned a lesson. >> right. >> about how to deal with them. >> why you instead of somebody before you? certainly other people have been curious about the

church before. the church seems to have made some kind of peace with the idea that you were going to do this, they couldn't dissuade you. i guess i may not be aware of other major investigations into scientology of this magnitude. yours seem to have done something that others in the past had they done have not been able to accomplish. >> there is a history of really courageous and intelligent reporters trying to do stories about scientology and it was a lesson in it for me. the very first of the big investigative expose says was by a woman named paulette cooper in the middle 70s. she published a book and they framed her, that she was making death threats against president ford. they got her inindicted because they said she had sent bomb threats to the church. she was frantic. she considered suicide.

she was, you know, you can imagine what kind of situation she was in. it wasn't until the f.b.i. did a raid on the church of scientology in 1977 and they found a file called operation freak outwhere they talked about the campaign to either incarcerate her in jail or in an insane asylum. that was the first one. there have been other writers who, you know, have been framed, you know, smeared, character assassinations. >> when will you be framed? >> well, we've got good legal help. >> yeah. >> and i, you know -- remember the movie the hurt locker. >> oh, yeah. >> well, i feel a little like the character in that, trying to very carefully you don't want to touch the wrong wire to the wrong contact and so all the way through the book, you know, i was as careful as i could, in some ways the book may be flawed, by the carefulness

of its writing. >> that's already come up as a topic of conversation. michael kinsly review is something the crunch that you hear is larry wright bending over backwards to be fair to the church of scientology when i frankly take as a compliment. you have gone unbelievably out of the way for the tone of the book to be neutral, not to be hysterical about allegations about this or that, you are very tough on the church in the way you report, but the book comes across as really pretty measured. i have to believe that took a lot of effort. >> yeah, it did. but i think i'm -- i'm not condemning of scientologists, i don't care what people believe. i really didn't set out to write an expose. >> yeah. >> this is the most stigmatized religion, why bother to write an approximate expose. >> i thought of it is

explanatory journalism. a lot of jokes about the church, people misunderstand what the church is, some people think that it's not actual religion that it's a cult. i think that's left for people to decide after reading this book whether there's some involvedty to that. but the fact is that you really explain i think if for the first time in detail, also it's a book about the church, but it's also a book about l ron hubbard. could you ask for a better character? >> no, no, in your life you will never get a better character. >> most amazing guy. >> may i say a total looney tune as i interrupt. interpret, i'll be framed, right? as i interpret the facts as you present them dispassion dispassionately. you go oh, my good what i heard before times 100. did you have that reaction. >> let me address the easy crazy issue. >> please. >> i got so many different diagnoses of about what he

was malignant gnars cyst, paranoid schizophrenic. i started thinking about if you look at him in a different context. aborignal, anthropologists talk about schizophrenics being a shaman. a lot of times people have mental disorders going on a spiritual journey and heal themselves on that journey and come back and their task is to heal their community. well, that's really the legend that l ron hubbard created for himself. he came out of world war ii and his legend was that he was badly wounded in heroic action during the war. he was blinded and crippled. but medicine couldn't help, couldn't save him. he was left, abandoned. and so he healed himself. using these techniques that later developed into his book dianetics. >> right.

and there's nothing -- nothing true about that. >> all false, right? he never saw any action, right? >> after the war, he did go into the hospital and doctors couldn't really figure out what was wrong with him. he had ulcers and con junctivitis. it was in this kind of crucible that he began to think how can i redefine myself. he got caught up in a black magic circle in california. he could see eccentric esoteric religious beliefs, it was an interesting community but probably a lot of fun. >> sure. >> so he was really enjoying himself. >> exactly the kind of place that you can essentially create a religion from whole cloth, right, yeah. >> right. so he was inspired by that. then he was a science fiction writer. >> quite prolific and successful. >> prolific.

let me tell you. he said that he used to write 100,000 words a month, which -- i give him a lot -- >> that's a lot. >> he would roll in a roll of butcher paper into his i.b.m. and it was a physical action for him. he would perspire he was typing to quickly. when he was done he would tear it off with a t square, end it off to the publisher, start the next story. he wrote dianetics in a month. you know, that's a remarkable book. for me, kind of unreadable. a lot of people found something in it. >> someone is reading it, somebody is -- >> it was an international -- >> how many copies of dianetics sold last count. >> more than 2 or 3 million. but it stayed atop the new york times best seller list for -- for a long time. just as i hope to do. >> yes.

[laughter]. >> only a few more, larry. can you distill -- so hard to do, but can you distill the philosophical basis for scientology in a few sentences? is there any way to say this is what it is, finally. >> sure. in scientology you believe that you are a thetan,ing immortal soul. there are ways of demonstrating this. if you were to be approached by a scientologist and they would say evan, what is ruining your life? and you might say it's my relationship, my job, something like that. we've got things that can help you. you go into a scientology center. and at some point you will take courses to help you, but you will get into auditing which is the scientology therapy. >> right. >> the difference between that and ordinary therapy is that between you and your auditor, there's a device called an e meter. and it's two melt metal cans,

electrical wires that a tiny amount of currents, indetectible. it goes to a meter which has a needle on it. so while we're talking about some crisis in your life, an argument with your boss, you know, you can see the agitation on the needle. >> yep. >> and so let's talk about it again. then the agitation grows less. gradually you bleed out the effect on your life, you know, one of the goals of scientology is to go through your memories that are causing you pain and discomfort and neurotic behavior and -- >> yep. >> -- bleed out all of the affect so that you have them there. but in what they call your reactive mind. and once you get all of those things out of your reactive mind, you are clear. and that's a big break through. >> yeah. >> but what happens a lot of

time when you go through this therapy, the auditor might say, what's that? looking at the needle. i don't know just an image came into my mind. what is it? i don't know. looks like a farmhouse. some french countryside, maybe in another century. well, open the door and walk outside and see what it looks like. and so you begin to visualize. >> yep. >> and the meter is telling you this is true. it validates it as a memory. not just as a con fabbation, but as a memory. >> this is not all made up. this is all legit. >> decree characteristic, scientologists often have past life memories. >> the whole point is that our physical bodies are not the point. >> right, we have lived before, we will live after. >> there's a thought that hubbard who himself has been dead for a number of years, that he will return at some point. >> indeed. his works, his vast, you

know, body of work, in several locations around the united states, encased in titanium canisters in nuclear bomb resistant caverns. on at least one of them there are interlocking circles that are supposed to -- some people say it's for spaceships, but others say it's for hubbard's reincarnated spirit which is looking for a place to land and all his house and his offices in all of the different church buildings are there waiting for him. >> yeah. >> his bed is made up. there's a louie lamour novel on his bedside table. there's a place setting each night set for him. his cars are all gassed up and ready to go. >> this is fascinating to hear you talk about this again. very measured. i'm tempted to ask if you believe that there is a legitimate mass in the broadest sense to this as a religion. a lot of discussion as to whether any religion when you get right down to it is

any more legitimate than any other. the description of this as a church or this as a religion strike you as an appropriate way to describe it? >> well, of course there's only one opinion that matters and that's the i.r.s. [laughter]. to an agency -- >> i thought that you were going to say the individual. [laughter]. i guess i got that wrong. >> the agency very ill equipped to make such distinctions. but in my opinion, yes there are aspects of religion that scientology responds to. >> yeah. >> it's the sense of communities. >> right. >> there is a body of scripture which is the vast ouvre of l ron hubbard. before the church got its tax exemption, they went through a period of religious choking. in other words, they started, they created a cross, their minister started wearing roman collars, they started having services. >> more traditional. >> they took on the atmosphere of a religion.

now, ex-members tell me that it's a cult. >> part of the reason that they say that, let's get right into this, is if you're jewish, you decide no longer to go to temple or you are catholic and you decide no longer to go to mass, you withdraw from your faith in either case, you withdraw from your faith, see you later. if you withdraw from scientology, it's rather like trying to get out of the mafia, right? let's be frank about this. recriminations or retaliation or some pursuit of you, you really can't get out. >> let me break it down to three categories of signologists because it's different. a public sciencologist, you are the guy that joined over here on the drag and you have taken courses, so, you become disillusioned. you can leave. you will be followed by mail and solicitations the rest of your life, they are very good at finding you, constantly beckoned to come back to the church. >> in that respect maybe not

that much different than other faiths. [laughter]. >> then there is the celebrity category. these are the people that you know are scientologist. >> tom cruise, john travolt travolta, kirstie alley, beck. >> they have been asked to defend themselves, they have given tons of money to the church. everybody knows that they are a scientologist, it's not so easy for them to say i'm back being out of here. >> that was the paul hagger. >> he was the only one, the the only one to publicly, conspicuous celebrity scientologist to say something is wrong here. then there's a third category. and that's the sea org, that's the clergy. this is where it becomes really difficult because the sea org it was created by hubbard when he created this scientology armada in the

mid '60s, fleeing extraditions and indictments and process servers. so he brought in all of these young people to serve as his crew, they called themselves the sea org, they became the clergy. many of the people in the sea org today joined as children, many were born into the sea org so they never really had a choice. but they signed contracts for a billion years of service. >> literally a billion years. not an exaggeration. >> lifetime after lifetime after lifetime. the center for the sea org is a desert compound, 500 acres in southern california, which is fenced with -- with these razor tipped spear like proper contributions on top of the -- proper contributions on top of the fence, motion detectors, it's guarded, that's said to keep people from coming in, but of course it functions in both directions. and people inside that

compound have very little awareness of what's going on in the outside world. they may not have a driver's license. they are impoverished by their service. they only get paid $50 a week. they have set aside their education, especially if they are children they really are never exposed to education at any real level. most of their family members are probably in scientology. if they chose to leave, they would never -- their family members or their friends would never speak to them again. absolutely gonna happen. they know that. if they say i want to leave, there's a process that they go through. one step is you sign a confession for all of the crimes that you've committed. something that can be used against you. a lot of these are exempted. i have seen these things that people have written, they have been used to give to people like me to discredit sources. and then they will also be given a bill.

it's called a free loaders tab for all of the services that they were supposed to have gotten over the years. typically it's hundreds of thousands of dollars. so the exit cost, if you go through the front door are pretty great. if did you try to run away, they will go find you and drag you back. >> hard to get out. >> yes. they have reeducation camps where they will lock you up sometimes for years on end. so at that level it's very difficult to leave. >> we have about a minute left. the upshot of this book will be what, the church going forward, the church will take this book as blasphemy -- >> they will call it an inturblating influence. >> and the church goes on. still a massive landowner, enormous wealth, membership numbers are in dispute. you talk about that in the

book. the church is not going anywhere, it's going to continue to exist in the world and, you know, this book won't actually impact the -- >> evan, i actually think that the church of scientology is at a crisis point. it's got money and it's got lawyers, but its membership seems to be hemorrhaging pretty quickly. i don't think that people are streaming into the churches. certainly there have been no celebrity figures that have arisen in the last few years. >> new ones. >> new ones. so i think right now, you know, the management of the church, all the allegations of physical abuse and involuntary confinement, there's going to be a reckoning. maybe the f.b.i. can't do it. they got scared off. maybe the i.r.s. is too paralyzed to take them on again. but i think that those members, i mean even the top management has been locked up in the reeducation camps or confined in them.

those celebrity members that have been the pitch men for this organization for years, they have an obligation to know what they are selling. and if they are the ones who can actually affect change, i think, you know, the only two forces that can change scientology are reconsideration by the i.r.s. or somebody like tom cruise saying wait a minute, has iwhat is going on here? >> pretty fascinating. congratulations on it and all of your other books, it's a home run. thank you very much, lawrence wright, thank you very much. >> we would love to have you join us in the studio. visit our website at klru.org/overheard to find invitations to interviews, q and a's with the audience and guests and an archive of past episodes. >> if you decide to progress deep into scientology and go through the spiritual

ladder, you better set aside about a half a million dollars and that's just to get to the top of the spiritual pyramid. [music]. >> funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by the matson mchail foundation in support of public television. also by mfi foundation, improving the quality of life within our community. and from the texas board of legal specialization, board certified attorneys in your community. experienced, respected, and tested. also, by hilco partners. texas government affairs consultancy. and its global health care consulting business unit, hilco health. and by the alice clayberg reynolds foundation and viewers like

i it offers hundreds of hours of british mysteries, dramas, and comedies streaming commercial-free, on-demand. learn about our 30-day trial, at: [ man ]: on this episode of just seen it, we review: the relationship drama, - interestingly enough, this movie is based off a graphic novel, called "blue angel." [ man ]: the fantastical tale of - sometimes i had no idea what was going on, but i could not keep my eyes off of it. [ man ]: we chat with jordan vogt-roberts, director of - i mean, when was the last time you guys walked out of a comedy and said to yourselves, "that was beautiful"? [ man ]: and, based on true events, one man's battles against hiv, in - the friendship between our two leads is so wonderful, this movie could've been called "the cowboy and the queen"

[ man ]: all right here, on [ man ]: adele is a 15-year-old who dreams of becoming a teacher. emma is a promising art student at a nearby college. when the two meet, they begin a relationship that will change their lives, in: - hi, i'm sean. - i'm liz. and i'm aaron, and today we're here to talk about "blue is the warmest color," winner of the palme d'or at this years cannes. we've all just seen it. liz, what did you think? - for me, this film is a triple threat because it's french, it's three hours long, and it's about lesbians. so, i'm in it - like, this is my kind of movie.

the filmmaker took the time to really immerse you in this world; there were scenes where any other studio, any other filmmaker would've cut it in half, and we just lingered on these shots that a lot of directors wouldn't have the confidence to linger on. - yea. well, it didn't feel like three hours, but it did drag a little bit, at times. it's interesting. it's based off of a french graphic novel, and also, the writer/dirctor chose to incorporate parts of a story that he had always been really excited about into this story. and, here we have this three hour film about a young girl who is finding her sexuality, and, uh...it's quite a film. - the author of the graphic novel actually didn't like the movie... for various reasons. - oh really? it kinda doesn't surprise me, i mean...it's really hard to tell where the graphic novel ends and our director's input begins. - the author of the graphic novel is a lesbian, and she had some problems with the depiction of lesbian sex in this movie, which is quite gratuitous.

- yes, it is. - uh, before we get too far down the line into that, i thought it was kind of a nice movie. i agree that it had these quiet moments that you would not see in american film. it's probably - well, it is much more common in french and european films to, sort of, linger on those moments and build character through that way. i do have some questions about the sex scenes. they're there. okay. i'll give the movie that. they're shown in a very graphic light... - gratuitously graphic! - very frank, graphic, gratuitous light...and i wonder, if you take the sex scenes out of this movie, if it would've made anywhere near the splash at cannes that it did. - and that's really what i struggle with, too. more along the lines of: do these graphic depictions of sex really mesh well with the rest of the story, and if so what is our writer/director trying to say with these depictions, because on the one hand, this could be seen as a graphic and physical representation of the emotions that we've been seeing on screen. but, on the other hand i just don't know if it coalesces

with everything else that we've seen. - if you're watching a film and it's about the exposing and the vulnerabilities of this main character of adele... y'know, it's all about her exploring herself - and the film has these long takes; the film has these long scenes - i understand what you're saying about it being exploitative, i did think it was a little bit unnecessarily long. i mean, these are very long, kind of, ridiculous sex scenes. but, it worked with the tone and the style of the film. and i like nudity. i like sex in film. i think it's important to show it. people are drawn to her because of her looks, and as an audience member, it detached me from the character a little bit. but the performance of our main character, adele exarchopoulos, made up for all of that.